Discussion in 'EtcetEra' started by Birdseye, Jan 9, 2018.
Yup, I've noticed this weird phenomenon on this very forum. Infantilizing women and denigrating sexuality as if it's the 1950s. A very vocal group of liberals have suddenly become conservatives.
But if it bothers you so... it's still open ya know.
if the movement gets subverted into a witch hunt, all will be lost.
She said that rape is obviously a crime and I don't see that she defends any of his actions in any shape or form.
She's talking about the general movement and how people who didn't mean much harm are getting put on the same level of fucked as Weinstein. When some bad flirting attempt is taken as missconduct at the workplace that has nothing to do with Weinstein hiring people to stalk his victims.
I agree with your sentiment though.
I think one issue is the context. This particular blow up has been around Hollywood, where clearly there are situations that are as much about a power disparity as they are about purely male-female dynamics.
This isn’t something you can transplant directly into normal life because the dynamics are different. of course there are still consent issues in real life, but similar situations wouldn’t be comparable 1:1
Genuine question: what high-profile accusation over the course of the past few months have involved a man just "flirting" with a woman? I can't think of any.
Someone is sexually forcing themselves onto someone else with no permission or even a suggestion that the person is interested.
Two people flirting at a bar or a party and its clear you both want it? I can understand that.
But just randomly kissing someone without their permission in a situation that doesn't call for it? That's sexual assault.
What about grabbing someone's bum or boobs without their permission, would that be OK to you too?
Also it's not surprising to see people try to take the high road by instead of condemning someone doing something 'minor', instead they focus on people apparently saying it's just as bad as rape and ignoring the kiss.
Rape might be 'worse' then a kiss but they both still cross the line and that's the only important thing people need to consider. Not putting things on a scale and chastise anyone who calls out the 'small' stuff.
It's exactly the same argument as "there are people starving in Africa so why complain about this small stuff".
(Honestly, seeing she’s pretty high on the list, this really reads like something penned by Elizabeth Levy) (scratch that, she’s not that high but it’s telling how much this reads like an amalgam of reactionary fantasies)
Just because we're not still burning witches alive doesn't mean patriarchy went anywhere. It might be easier to assume otherwise from a French perspective, but they should recognize that this perspective is not necessarily applicable to our circumstances. Things are a lot worse here. The type of machismo she's trying to defend is equated with rape culture in America because the men here have made it that way.
Given our present circumstances, any "excesses" of the movement thus far are perfectly forgivable. American patriarchal culture has made and continues to make masculinity toxic by associating it with behavior that is predatory and dominating. This movement is nothing but simple justice, and a necessary rebellion against a status quo that has caused untold suffering for women and then told those women to stay quiet about it. If men are afraid right now then maybe they should take stock of the situation that has precipitated all of this, humble themselves, question their own behavior, and start being really fucking careful. It's not "stalinism" or a witch-hunt until we're tossing men into a giant woodchipper or whatever just for being men.
This letter is extremely tone-deaf and its message plays directly into the hands of people who are the enemies of women in every culture. I'm not one to ever say "women need to keep their mouths shut!" but god damn it would be nice if the women who signed this letter could have understood that offering their perspective in this way and at this moment is not helpful to us or to them. Oh well. :\
i guarantee you most of the men who think its fine to steal a kiss would flip the fuck out if another man tried to steal a kiss from them
thats how you know they're full of shit
non-consensual contact is perfectly fine aslong as its not directed at them from someone they dont want
I saw Goody Sandler touching a knee.
*stomps out of thread*
Lol. It is revealed how many women (and men) were sexually exploited (that's a crime) by people with power over them. Bah! Puritans! They were just horny, what you want! .......
I do think that there is some blurring between hitting on - which I think is normal between humans - and harassment/abuse. For me the difference is consent. If you hit on someone and they don’t respond positively, don’t coerce physically or due to your position of power into getting a yes.
I come from a mediterranean culture that is very sexual, and I do believed hitting on someone is not inherently bad - But this observation at this time still doesn’t feel quite timely.
Edit: I edited my post heavily because I have an opinion I don’t know how to express, and being devil’s advocate is sometimes just hurtful when you should cheer for people being strong and making a change.
the French are so weird when it comes to defending sexual misbehavior and sexual crimes.
Remember their intelligentsia defending Roman Polanksi
I haven't been following the Winestien case closely, though from what I gather he seemed like a real sleeze. I can't say much about this #MeToo "movement". Obviously a great many women assaulted without recourse for justice. So the way it has played out seems to be a reflection of the problem going unanswered for so long.
And no, I am not being sarcastic. Both of these things contribute to a toxicity in our culture.
Uhhh... a witch hunt towards those denying the sexual freedom of others is hardly a witch hunt on sexual freedom. And how about motherfuckers just ask if a woman wants to fuck with you if you're really confused.
I mean Neogaf got destroyed because of one of those extreme exemple. It was a facebook post about how the owner of the site was a overconfident jerk that entered a shower naked one time because he thought he could. The person who talked about it never wanted to make the name public, she later on said that she didn't want to hurt his career and that he was just an ex that was an asshole. And yet everything around him got destroyed.
Now of course Malka was an asshole and handled the whole situation as poorly as he could so nothing of value was lost. But still, I think it was an exemple of how a MeToo post can become extremely viral and nefast when really it's more a private matter that should be resolved, well, privately.
also that second one is still fucked up and deserves to be condemned
Where do men get this ridiculous notion that they are fucking ENTITLED to someone else's attention/affection/interaction? Oh right, the systemic sexism we live under.
We are not owed anything with regards to sex or romance. Period. The idea that we are is so fucked up and wrong.
I’m not necessarily saying I agree with the letter and I think it lacks perspective but I think it’s interesting and there’s a discussion that can potentially be had when a bunch of women are saying hold on, perhaps we’re going too far here.
As a dude, I feel like even flirting has to be consensual. If the other person doesn't reciprocate then back the fuck off.
but yea, if she didn't want this to potentially hurt him significantly, then she definitely should have kept it private between them
It got destroyed because of how he reacted. The intial facebook post was not the actual catalyst
they're misunderstanding that this isn't harmless flirting it's sexual assault, but I do agree that anyone can just come out with a #metoo and suddenly that person is almost instantly demonized before they have a chance to defend themselves
That's not how this works.
The thing that angers me most about that whole situation was Malka had a history of predatory behaviour but that was all brushed under the carpet, and handwaved away by those who were desperate to keep their mod positions and Gaf accounts. Every one of them should hang their heads in shame