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ashep

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,703
So because she is a woman and has an opinion, we should automatically buy anything she says when she tries to dictate the terms for what other women can say?

That's not how this works.
No, it's not about "buying" what she says. I'm just asking why her opinion should be summarily dismissed.

Obviously some if not most women would find "stealing a kiss" completely unacceptable in 2018 but it appears that a smaller number wouldn't necessarily be so affronted. I don't remember Halle Berry filing a suit against Adrien Brody.
 

Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
According to who? Deneuve is a woman and surely she's entitled to her own opinion on what she finds acceptable?

I'm not necessarily saying I agree with the letter and I think it lacks perspective but I think it's interesting and there's a discussion that can potentially be had when a bunch of women are saying hold on, perhaps we're going too far here.
You have poc and LGBT+ supporting Trump even though he has shown he is racist and against LGBT+. You can't save some people from themselves
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,376
Remember the picture at the end of world war 2 of a solider kissing a pedestrian, it was the front page of a newspaper and has a statue celebrating it. Now that same action is sexual assault and equivated with rape by some people. Is it okay to kiss someone, no. But it's not the equivalent of rape either and shouldn't be roped into the same legal term (sexual assault) that has traditionally been used to refer to rape. Call it something else, sexually inappropriate behavior, but not assault.
Forcably kissing someone is sexual assault if they don't like it. That's all there is to it. An old photo doesn't change that.
 

MajorBritten

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
1,080
i guarantee you most of the men who think its fine to steal a kiss would flip the fuck out if another man tried to steal a kiss from them

thats how you know they're full of shit

non-consensual contact is perfectly fine aslong as its not directed at them from someone they dont want

Thats not exactly a fair comparison, if a woman tried to steal a kiss from a man would the man flip out? Probably not. If a woman tried to steal a kiss from another woman would that woman flip out? Most likely she would if she wasnt bi or gay. If a woman or a man tried to kiss me I would politely say im flattered but not interested, I wouldnt start making accusations of sexual assault. If the person continues even after being rejected THEN yeah thats more serious.

I dont agree with everything Denueve has said, but she does have some valid points. One possible negative knock-on effect of this is that people lose confidence to make a first move on someone they are interested in, if even a simple hand on the shoulder is getting labeled as sexual assault and the same category as a rapist then nobody is going to show any kind of affection to anyone else, whether its wanted or unwanted.
 

Elynn

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,030
Brittany, France
One possible negative knock-on effect of this is that people lose confidence to make a first move on someone they are interested in, if even a simple hand on the shoulder is getting labeled as sexual assault and the same category as a rapist then nobody is going to show any kind of affection to anyone else, wanted or unwanted.
Good news !! It's not !
Now what do you think about men grinding their junk on women in public transport ? Because that's the kind of things she's explicitly defending here.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,065
In a perfect world maybe they would have a point. However let's try to expose the pervasiveness of physical assault before we start loosening the reigns of what's considered acceptable flirting.
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,442
Sweden
I dont agree with everything Denueve has said, but she does have some valid points. One possible negative knock-on effect of this is that people lose confidence to make a first move on someone they are interested in, if even a simple hand on the shoulder is getting labeled as sexual assault and the same category as a rapist then nobody is going to show any kind of affection to anyone else, wanted or unwanted.
Why would a hand on a shoulder be your first move if you are both capable of speech?
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
Thats not exactly a fair comparison, if a woman tried to steal a kiss from a man would the man flip out? Probably not. If a woman tried to steal a kiss from another woman would that woman flip out? Most likely she would if she wasnt bi or gay. If a woman or a man tried to kiss me I would politely say im flattered but not interested, I wouldnt start making accusations of sexual assault.

except it is, this is all about unwanted contact from another human being, a women being straight doesn't give a man anymore right to go at her than a man going after another man would have

a persons sexual orientation should have no baring on who is and who isn't allowed to have unwanted advances toward them
 
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ashep

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,703
Well, her opinion is basically that we should be dismissing the opinions of other women who draw the line differently than she does. The term "witch hunt" is very dismissive.
Yeah that's true. I don't necessarily think it's as black and white as some here are suggesting but nor do I completely align with what this letter is saying.

I'm certainly not arguing against the fact that anything which makes another person uncomfortable is not ok.
 

MajorBritten

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
1,080
Good news !! It's not !
Now what do you think about men grinding their junk on women in public transport ? Because that's the kind of things she's explicitly defending here.

As I said I dont agree with everything she said. A man or woman grinding another person on the train is unacceptable
 

Angel DvA

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,232
I understand what she's saying, I don't think she used the best exemple or words to expose her feelings but nobody's perfect, she has good and bad points imo.
 

Barry Bonds

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
269
The same thing he's done to males sitting next to him during talk show appearances. And it wasn't for minutes at all, and she said it was no big deal. So guess what, it's no big deal. But that didn't stop people from trying to make it a huge deal. Fortunately for him she was able to shut it all down.
I always take this with a grain of salt. A lot of girls say it's no big deal to avoid backlash.
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,166
The Unsexy Truth About Harassment

In rewriting these accusations as instances of "sexual misconduct," and not workplace harassment, women are returned to the unwanted role of sexual gatekeepers, which reduces women's power to their sexual availability (including, even, its absence). Calling out behavior that aims at or results in women's exclusion at work has already given way to debates about the meaning of hugs and kisses, and arguments about an allegedly brewing hysteria over sex. But women are not asking to be insulated from sex. Collectively naming sexual harassment is one way to combat male dominance as it is expressed at work, but that is not a collective panic about or refusal of sex.

[...]

As these stories continue to break, in the weeks since women have said they were harassed and abused by Harvey Weinstein, which was not the birth of a movement but an easy and highly visible shorthand for decades of organizing against sexual harassment that preceded this moment, I hope to gain back my time, my work. Lately, though, I have noticed a drift in the discourse from violated rights to violated feelings: the swelled number of reporters on the beat, the burden on each woman's story to concern a man "important" enough to report on, the detailed accounting of hotel robes and incriminating texts along with a careful description of what was grabbed, who exposed what, and how many times. What I remember most, from "my story" is how small the sex talk felt, almost dull. I did not feel hurt. I had no pain to confess in public. As more stories come out, I like to think that we would also believe a woman who said, for example, that the sight of the penis of the man who promised her work did not wound her, and that the loss she felt was not some loss of herself but of her time, energy, power.
 

We_care_a_lot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,157
Summerside PEI
I mean, do people really try and find out if someone wants to date them by touching them inappropriately or trying to kiss them? in the workplace? jesus christ what happened to 'hey want to go get coffee'?

And really, are we going to gloss over the fact that a good chunk of those accused are married, committed, ditto for the victims?

This kind of attitude makes me want to puke. I don't think it comes from a genuine place besides 'feminism is the devil'
 
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I Don't Like

Member
Dec 11, 2017
14,898
there is indeed nothing wrong with trying to get a date or trying to figure out if there's attraction with another person.

Here's a fucking news flash for you: the women who have come out didn't do so because someone was trying to "get a date" or "figure out if there's attraction" unless you're filing things like exposing your dick, groping and asking for a blowjob in those categories, in which case you're completely demented.

And this French bitch can shove it. The notion that "insistent flirting" isn't harassment is idiotic.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,314
I remember when I was a teenager, the conversation around sexual harassment was always that feminists were hysterical, and now "you can get sued at work for tapping your female co-worker on the shoulder! when will the madness end??".

This was the kind of rhetoric I'd hear over and over. Now it's finally being taken more seriously with the #metoo movement... or so I thought, ever briefly. Now it seems the pendulum is already swinging right back towards "but what about touching a co-worker's hair, that's not the same as raping someone OMG you guys, this could destroy innocent men's lives".

Sigh.

This isn't just about the Metoo movement. Before the movement, poor people wound up on sex offenders registry and had their lives ruined for peeing on a wall, or a 18 year old having consensual sex with his 16 year old girlfriend. Because they were poor and couldn't afford adequate legal representation, they wound up on the sex offenders list and had their lives and future job prospects ruined.

Now that rich people are being affected top, suddenly people care.
This is 100% irrelevant to the conversation.
 

Bobson Dugnutt

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,052
Not fully on board of with the whole of that statement because it underplays the sum total of the shit women have had to face over the years in that industry/elsewhere in society, and deneuve saying she founds the word 'rape' excessive in the Polanski situation is gross in the extreme.

But when I see some of the absolutist takes on the knee touching thing, that hugging topic a couple of months ago, and the arguments about whether you can say someone has a nice ass or not in a private conversation, I'm not entirely unsympathetic to it, particularly the purtianism accusation, even if it's not a 100 percent neat fit.
 

GameShrink

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,680
Regardless of accuracy (such anecdotal cultural generalizations are rarely helpful), what does this have to do with women complaining about sexual assault? As evidenced by the article in the OP, there exists a parallel and substantial #MeToo movement in France.

My point isn't that we're overreacting here, or that people in France are under reacting, merely that it's silly to expect both cultures to react the same way. Deneuve's calls for leniency in the US are as silly as American calls for zero-tolerance in France would be.
 

Deleted member 6511

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
432
Not sure how to feel about this.
I have never "stole a kiss" but that is something that did happen on parties on my time, and is was not sudden, there was previous flirting. The outcome was usually good for both.
Regarding work, while where I am from this (kissing) is not acceptable, flerting usually is.
I have a few friends that met at work, flirted at work and got married.

I understand that the problem happen when there is a position of power and the flerting is insistent...
 

Jon Carter

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,746
Why does the title only mention Catherine Deneuve? It's 100 women. And people shouldn't judge before reading their letter.
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
Of all the revelations there hasn't been a single one that I've seen where it has been a case of someone making an unwanted advance and getting on with life. That line of argument is nonsense.
 

Walras

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
183
As always context matters. Certain behavior is acceptable in private but not at work. Some cultures are more touchy-feely than others. Etc.
 

I Don't Like

Member
Dec 11, 2017
14,898
Of all the revelations there hasn't been a single one that I've seen where it has been a case of someone making an unwanted advance and getting on with life. That line of argument is nonsense.

Exactly.

I really want to know what the implications of saying insistent flirting isn't a crime are. Of course it isn't a crime but should a woman eventually agree to go out with a guy if he is "insistent" or smile and decline for fucking ever? I'm not even a woman and I know a guy who won't leave you alone is horrible - my ex gfs, female friends and my fiancée have all experienced it at some point - so to make it such a non-issue is ridiculous.

Maybe this Catherine whoever-the-fuck is a giant attention whore who loves guys doing that; pretty sure the average woman doesn't and pretty sure dismissing harassment by guys who are "insistent" by making a pointless observation that it's not technically a crime is just being a shitty, clueless person.
 
Oct 26, 2017
142
Montreal
Exactly.

I really want to know what the implications of saying insistent flirting isn't a crime are. Of course it isn't a crime but should a woman eventually agree to go out with a guy if he is "insistent" or smile and decline for fucking ever? I'm not even a woman and I know a guy who won't leave you alone is horrible - my ex gfs, female friends and my fiancée have all experienced it at some point - so to make it such a non-issue is ridiculous.

Maybe this Catherine whoever-the-fuck is a giant attention whore who loves guys doing that; pretty sure the average woman doesn't and pretty sure dismissing harassment by guys who are "insistent" by making a pointless observation that it's not technically a crime is just being a shitty, clueless person.

C. Deneuve is probably the second most well known French actress behind Brigitte Bardot in the history of French films, I promise she has all the attention she wants (and even more). The reason why the article just gave her name and not the other 99, is because of her fame in Europe...

That said, she is old, she has taken very 'questionable' stances in the past (especially regarding Roman Polanski, but also others), and she is known to be very clumsy in most of her public speeches. It's just another one.

But, even if the words she uses, and the way she formulates her argument is really not acceptable, she is raising a VERY GOOD point. Humanity has a history of 'swinging back FAR TOO MUCH' after a failure. Let's not transform the world of 'un-punished sexual offenders' into a world of 'men are flipping out to move a finger'... That's it.
 

ashep

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,703
Here's a fucking news flash for you: the women who have come out didn't do so because someone was trying to "get a date" or "figure out if there's attraction" unless you're filing things like exposing your dick, groping and asking for a blowjob in those categories, in which case you're completely demented.

And this French bitch can shove it. The notion that "insistent flirting" isn't harassment is idiotic.
Oh god the fucking irony.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
But, even if the words she uses, and the way she formulates her argument is really not acceptable, she is raising a VERY GOOD point. Humanity has a history of 'swinging back FAR TOO MUCH' after a failure. Let's not transform the world of 'un-punished sexual offenders' into a world of 'men are flipping out to move a finger'... That's it.

It's barely even swung let alone gotten close to swinging back
 

potam

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
565
I get their point, but I think they're off base.

I've held the attitude that a lot of the harassment stuff we see is a legacy attitude, and I think people need to be judged by the times they grew up in and lived in. I'm in no way defending assault or rape, but I'm referring to bosses flirting with their employees.

With that being said, the times are changing, and for the better.

Hard to really explain my thoughts on mobile, but I guess my point is: there are a lot of people who honestly see nothing wrong with overt flirting, or think a woman's rejections may be her playing hard to get. Those people need to be educated and shown that stuff like that is archaic and not ok today.

I think the authors of the letter are that type of people, and I don't think it's wise to jump down their throats, but rather explain to them why their views are out of touch.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,348
The reactions in this thread just go to show that there are no simple solutions to complex problems. But I do feel like the people who signed this are somewhat divorced from reality if they equate clumsy flirting with stealing a kiss. It shouldn't be that hard to convey that people in power shouldn't leverage that power against others for sexual gratification.
 

I Don't Like

Member
Dec 11, 2017
14,898
But, even if the words she uses, and the way she formulates her argument is really not acceptable, she is raising a VERY GOOD point. Humanity has a history of 'swinging back FAR TOO MUCH' after a failure. Let's not transform the world of 'un-punished sexual offenders' into a world of 'men are flipping out to move a finger'... That's it.

Are we in danger of that? Are we in so close to that we needed this letter of 100 people including a prominent actress?

That's my problem. Why was this necessary? At best it makes observations that are completely obvious. At worst it dismisses harassment and basically qualifies anything that doesn't reach crime-level as acceptable.

At a time when we're still way behind recognizing the prevalence of sexual harassment and assault, where we're still mostly telling women to suck it up or claiming they're probably just exaggerating, this is acting like we've it figured out and it's some non-existent extreme on the other side of the spectrum that's the clear and present danger. It's like when people act that reverse-racism or misidentifying things as racist are as big of problems as actual racism. Of course to a small extent those might be issues but they're basically negligible and they sure as fuck shouldn't be elevated to the same significance.

Oh god the fucking irony.

You don't know what irony is.
 

Deleted member 18857

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,083
That's my problem. Why was this necessary?
Because the Weinstein scandal and the #metoo campaign haven't had any effect in France, and none of the pigs' careers have been affected there.
Young French women are tired of this, and older women in power such as Deneuve want to make sure to shut them up before they attack the men to whom they owe their power.
 

Annoying Old Party Man

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
966
I kind of agree with what she is saying, but then, I also find it very satisfying that all those stories are coming out now and so many people are being held accountable. On the other hand, is this happening only in Hollywood? I would assume it is something happening in every fucking industry - rich assholes harassing men and women, but only the Hollywood stories sell, so we will only hear about them.

This is a definitely though a complicated subject beyond the "it is time to reveal all those powerful actors that have been groping women for the past 30 years" mantra that has been going since the Weinstein scandal, and the absolutism with which it is handled here shows how black and white internet forums can be.
 

YellowMoose

Banned
Dec 21, 2017
177
This is a case of pure cultural dissonance.

Sexual power dynamics are quite different in France, and women there aren't typically put down for asserting their own sexuality and desires. It isn't uncommon at all for attractive French women to approach men in a much more aggressive and carefree manner than we're used to in the States.

Heterosexual relationships are far closer to equality there, as opposed to the predator-and-prey mentality of the US.
As a French-Canadian myself, I concur.
 

Annoying Old Party Man

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
966
Are we in danger of that? Are we in so close to that we needed this letter of 100 people including a prominent actress?

That's my problem. Why was this necessary? At best it makes observations that are completely obvious. At worst it dismisses harassment and basically qualifies anything that doesn't reach crime-level as acceptable.

At a time when we're still way behind recognizing the prevalence of sexual harassment and assault, where we're still mostly telling women to suck it up or claiming they're probably just exaggerating, this is acting like we've it figured out and it's some non-existent extreme on the other side of the spectrum that's the clear and present danger. It's like when people act that reverse-racism or misidentifying things as racist are as big of problems as actual racism. Of course to a small extent those might be issues but they're basically negligible and they sure as fuck shouldn't be elevated to the same significance.



You don't know what irony is.

For the sake of argument, why do you think 100 french women, from various fields of work including literature and academics, created this letter? Is there a hidden agenda? Is it because every single of those 100 are out of touch with reality, or too old to comprehend the situation?

Are French women misogynist? What's going on there?