Because it leads to people thinking of male as the default in all sorts of context. It's actually a pretty significant problem fueled by patriarchy.
You're missing the point here. Some dumb-dumb earlier said it was "colonialism" to read sexism into gendered languages. We're just arguing against that. Because it's not only fucking ridiculous, it's also heavily ironic coming from someone speaking a language that was spread via colonialism itself!
Someone speaking a language that was spread by colonialism doesn't mean that language is not part of their colonised identity though that's what you fail to take into consideration.
You really don't need to remind me how anglos try to assimilate everything non-English, I've dealt with that my whole life. But again you are missing the point, which is that criticizing the gendered aspects of those languages as sexist or patriarchal is not colonialism. It's just fucking not. Words have meaning, FFS.
Like. No. "Reading sexism into the masculine as neutral is English colonialism": lol, fucking NO
Not all gendered languages are patriarchal, for example my native language amazigh (berber) uses the female gender as the default (not weird considering how matriarchal those tribes were)
This thread and the conversation happening, was about French (I even wrote "those languages", so obviously I was not referring to the Berber language), and the post specifically referred to "usage of masculine as default". I feel you're being deliberately obtuse just to keep arguing right now.
English is the only language in the PIE family that doesn't have proper grammatical genders. If anything, English is weird
What colonies does my country have? Also, how does that make the whole "poor ignorant foreigners, let's judge and teach them how to speak their own language with no regard to their own culture or say in the matter" okay?
You would think that if in your native language masculine gender = male, but that's not the case in Romance languages.
I don't know where you're from, nor do I usually involve myself in matters of Anglicisation. I just know weaponizing the term "colonialism" so flagrantly with regards to what ultimately amounts to slap fights and stealth transphobia all occurring between speakers of languages that were all known for actual colonialism is a galaxy brained-ass take, regardless of wherever you're from.
This thread is predicated on how elements like non-binary communities, working within these languages, are attempting to try and push forward language to account for their identity though.
This is a very weak spin. The colonialism/imperialism argument concerning Latinx is obviously about Latin America, not Spain. It's about North America/the U.S. trying to force their language/culture on Spanish-speaking countries in Central and South America. Language change should come from within the linguistic community, and not be driven by external forces, that's what people mean by linguistic imperialism.
Again, what is embarrassing is how cavalier you are about colonialism. You can be mad about Anglicisation of a Romance language without having the lack of perspective to compare what is, ultimately, the attempt to linguistically recognize non-binary people, with shit like slavery and genocide of Native and Black peoples.
There are a number of people who are from countries in Latin America that use Latinx mind. Some even in this thread (and past threads). That it isn't adopted widely or that a minor percentage of people identify with it isn't exactly surprising when you consider the general % of a population that's non-binary.
This is what I mean: why are you expecting them to adopt something some other random language cooked up.
?
French isn't France's anymore.
That's a stretch. What I said was it's not surprising that the percentage of the population that have adopted and do identify with it is small, considering how small a segment of an overall population non-binary people make up. Others might use latine, others something else. Some however, do use latinx.
I'm not exclusively talking about Latinx (a term which some Latin Americans have adopted on their own but different argument for a different day); I'm talking about the use of the term "colonialism" in Drigon's original post, which is ultimately a shot at English speakers weighing in on any issue regarding any Romance language (all in a thread regarding the French from, you know, France...a colonial power, fighting over a gender neutral pronoun in French), as if the countries that these Romance languages primarily derived from weren't also imposing their languages on whatever unfortunate colonies they could get their hands on? It's both a matter of hypocrisy and trivialization, and it isn't really affected by valid concerns of Anglicisation, nor if you happen to be non-American.
No doubt about it.
It started in Spain IIRC (with words like trabajadorxs), I used to see it a lot about 15 years ago in anarchist forums. But it fell out of favour ages ago and people tend to use other things. So just because the coin fell on "Latinx" in the US doesn't mean we need to follow suit.
It's good if the term can help some people. Wide-spread adoption among the general population would depend on how easily it can be used with the existing rules of the language, and of course social factors. The latter can pose a bigger obstacle to inclusion than the grammatical rules of the language. In Germany, there is resistance against using more gender-inclusive nouns and getting rid off the masculine as the default atm. Many argue that it makes sentences unnecessarily complicated (it's basically just using both forms, so one additional word, or merging the masculine and feminine forms together where applicable), but many oppose the practice for different reasons (sexism).
Isn't it still work in progress? Doesn't it also mean that you might follow suit anyway?
The claim in a few earlier posts seemed to be that thanks to the widespread use of Latinx in the US, people in Spanish-speaking countries would benefit. The reality is we have tons of other alternatives already in place. Well, people who are into that.
I read their original post, and yours makes more sense now in that context. I think colonialism really is the wrong/incorrect word to use in this topic, given the historical significance of the term, and the crimes it describes. Imperialism to describe the "soft" powers or influences of nations over others is more fitting for this discussion.
Holy fuck lol, this is so condescending. J'suis Québécoise câlisse, you think I don't know that??
I mean, not really. Plenty of us francophones are chiming in. And, again, this whole thing started because some guy called the criticism of patriarchal language structures "colonialism". Even worse, this is during a discussion over how we could make French more inclusive to non-binary people... 🤦♀️ If you can't see how bringing up colonialism in this context is inappropriate at best, I don't know what to tell you.
Holy fuck lol, this is so condescending. J'suis Québécoise câlisse, you think I don't know that??
I mean, not really. Plenty of us francophones are chiming in. And, again, this whole thing started because some guy called the criticism of patriarchal language structures "colonialism". Even worse, this is during a discussion over how we could make French more inclusive to non-binary people... 🤦♀️ If you can't see how bringing up colonialism in this context is inappropriate at best, I don't know what to tell you.
Mais... je n'ai jamais défendu les idiots qui nous disent de juste parler anglais...!? Et j'ai pas dit que mon expérience était la seule qui était valide, c'est toi qui me disait "French isn't just France's anymore" merde!
Absolutely. It'll be an awkward and likely slow process but it's good to see people starting to try and carve out a niche in language to suit their identity. It always amazes me just how steadfast some people can be over it when it's likely to never affect their own personal use of the language. It's not an easy thing to try and get around in ones that are gendered so some accommodating for people trying, alongside talking to those people themselves, will go a long way I believe. Ultimately non-binary people aren't going anywhere so it's a natural progression for these forms of language to start to be explored.
Thank you. That person is fighting ghosts of their own imagining at this point.
English also breaks it own rules a lot too lol
I just try to use alternative words like "teilnehmende Personen" instead of "Teilnehmer". To say "Teilnehmer*innen with * as a pause out loud feels strange in a private conversation.
And I am a portuguese speaker and it isnt for me
It depends on what the other person prefers. They can prefer "iel est français" or "iel est française" or "iel est français.e".
To add to DiipuSurotu 's answer, iel can also be written ielle and as far as I know, both have the same definition and meaning (third person gender-neutral pronoun).
It still feels like a bogeyman and/or a way to deprive people of their free will, making them mindless drones under the influence of English speakers instead of people who have their own agency.
