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French protesters want to set off bank run with withdrawals

Oct 25, 2017
1,669
After the last crisis doesn't the EU mandate a sizeable amount of cash reserves for banks? The protesters can't be so many to deplete that scattered across various banks.
 

BreezyLimbo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,725
Russia's meddling has been proven in the US elections, in Brexit, in most far-right EU parties for years. Melanchon, on the far left, is a fan of Poutine, just like Le Pen.
At that point, you'd have to be naïve to believe that Poutine wouldn't see in the YV movement an opportunity to sow dissent.
no it's completely independent and from the french people

this is a pure protest

</sarcasm>

honestly russias whole thing is causing instability

This is instability.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,239
Thanks for the serious answer.
How am I supposed to seriously reply to 'Let's Marx this mf'er up'?

Because that really worked out well for Russia, China, Venezuela...

I've got nothing against societies that balance social justice and economic freedom (and finding the balance can be extremely difficult), but I am totally against extremes of all sides.
 

Iloelemen

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,280
Being low / middle class doesn't change the fact that a majority of them are racists.
Note the word majority. I feel bad for the genuine good people in the movement that struggle with their income, but the movement has been taken over from day 1 by alt-right assholes.
Isn't this movement participated by both the far left and the far right?
Like you have the super fascist ultra conservative racist bigoted alt-righy types on one side and the full on ultra radical anarchist commie tankie leftis on the other with a common goal of dissenting against the ruling class?
 

Juj

Member
Oct 29, 2017
409
How am I supposed to seriously reply to 'Let's Marx this mf'er up'?

Because that really worked out well for Russia, China, Venezuela...

I've got nothing against societies that balance social justice and economic freedom (and finding the balance can be extremely difficult), but I am totally against extremes of all sides.
You misunderstood me. I was saying 'we need a Marx OT', because I was raising the point of criticism of the State as an institution - Marx has written about many things you know, criticism of the State as means of power over people is one of them. This was connected to the point of not focusing on the use of power by the police, maybe holding on to an idea of that violence as legitimate automatically as it's the state who is authorising it.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,239
Isn't this movement participated by both the far left and the far right?
Like you have the super fascist ultra conservative racist bigoted alt-righy types on one side and the full on ultra radical anarchist commie tankie leftis on the other with a common goal of dissenting against the ruling class?
Basically this.
 
Dec 26, 2018
4,164
Well seeing as how we actually have economic theory to back our point up and how centrists don't...eh. If you care about poverty then you are expected to come with plans to tackle poverty. Except that you are incapable to do that because centrism fused with the lowered might of nation states against multinationals means every decision ends up benefiting the big boys.
We have plenty of theory, along with wonks and politicians of every stripe and are able to engage with the system to get the best results we can. No-one can simply ignore the system itself or its disadvantages and structurally change a country's economy on a whim. This applies to liberals, centrists and socialists.

Economic theory is important, but it becomes irrelevant unless you can get enough political influence to get into law. What has been done by liberals and centrists has been imperfect, I agree, but reform with incrementalism is difficult while massive change like you're suggesting is literally impossible. The socialists in France and America can't get elected president, never mind take over congress or parliament with their numbers. Or they would have done it already.

I could ask socialists the same. If they care about poverty as badly as you claim why haven't they solved it by now? I'm not talking about economic theory, I'm talking about in practice. They haven't been succeeding in France or America. Why is that?

edit: Not being able to fix a thing is not proof that they don't care about the thing.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
2,599
you pay the vocal people to start shit

maybe some facebook groups
Honestly, you don’t need to pay anyone off when legitimately upset people are getting together in Facebook groups. Facebook already does the job of putting people together like-minded people.
One positive way to look at it is that Facebook helps grassroots movements get together and organize, but you could also say this creates echo chambers that can radicalize themselves. Both are not mutually exclusive and are probably true tbh.

Facebook is a bigger worry than Russia tbh: they’re collecting all these profiles, their likes, and have shown they’re willing to sell that data.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,237
Isn't this movement participated by both the far left and the far right?
Like you have the super fascist ultra conservative racist bigoted alt-righy types on one side and the full on ultra radical anarchist commie tankie leftis on the other with a common goal of dissenting against the ruling class?
Yeah but that takes more time to write and I'm lazy.
Either way, it's mostly a bunch of morrons with some actual good people in the middle of the shit sandwich.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,239
You misunderstood me. I was saying 'we need a Marx OT', because I was raising the point of criticism of the State as an institution - Marx has written about many things you know, criticism of the State as means of power over people is one of them. This was connected to the point of not focusing on the use of power by the police, maybe holding on to an idea of that violence as legitimate automatically as it's the state who is authorising it.
Ok then I apologize for misunderstanding.

But what you say is troubling because I can't imagine a society without some kind of government. Inevitably, someone is going to want power and get that power through whatever means necessary. Even Marxists need some kind of structure to ensure that resources are equally distributed to the people.

As for Police...OK, so we can all agree that abuse of power of the police is bad. However, I like the Police when they stop bad people from doing bad things. It's quite logical. When a mob is setting fire to your car do you want them to just sit there and say, 'Sorry pal. We have to use our kind words.'
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,583
The Tea Party did great things. Horrible things, yes... but great.

Seriously, it's totally reasonable to respect a bunch of people for effecting change through massive protests without supporting the change they're effecting. Imagine if Occupy or BLM could have half the success and impact that the Tea Party has had?
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
How am I supposed to seriously reply to 'Let's Marx this mf'er up'?

Because that really worked out well for Russia, China, Venezuela...

I've got nothing against societies that balance social justice and economic freedom (and finding the balance can be extremely difficult), but I am totally against extremes of all sides.
How dare anyone ever read something and discuss it. What an outlandish thing to want!

Ok then I apologize for misunderstanding.

But what you say is troubling because I can't imagine a society without some kind of government. Inevitably, someone is going to want power and get that power through whatever means necessary. Even Marxists need some kind of structure to ensure that resources are equally distributed to the people.

As for Police...OK, so we can all agree that abuse of power of the police is bad. However, I like the Police when they stop bad people from doing bad things. It's quite logical. When a mob is setting fire to your car do you want them to just sit there and say, 'Sorry pal. We have to use our kind words.'
Maybe this is where you could benefit from reading.

I'm no anarchist because I think the idea that state systems will collapse is silly. We're stuck with the state because the state system ensures every piece of land is claimed by a state abd the state system is the most powerful thing that exists. That's very different than just dismissing out of hand any alternatives.

Meanwhile socities functioned for a very long time without the police

We have plenty of theory, along with wonks and politicians of every stripe and are able to engage with the system to get the best results we can. No-one can simply ignore the system itself or its disadvantages and structurally change a country's economy on a whim. This applies to liberals, centrists and socialists.

Economic theory is important, but it becomes irrelevant unless you can get enough political influence to get into law. What has been done by liberals and centrists has been imperfect, I agree, but reform with incrementalism is difficult while massive change like you're suggesting is literally impossible. The Socialists in France and America can't get elected president, never mind take over congress or parliament with their numbers. Or they would have done it already.

I could ask socialists the same, if they care about poverty as badly as you claim why haven't they solved it by now? I'm not talking about economic theory, I'm asking in practice. They haven't been succeeding in France or America. Why is that?

edit: Not being able to fix a thing is not proof that they don't care about the thing.
Talking about incrememtalism being the only way is bizzare when you're talking about France of all places.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
808
Why the fuck would you want a run on the banks. I mean capitalism really collapsed when Lehman Brothers failed right? The bankrupcy of Northern Rock was great for the common man, right?

Take that banks, you ain't getting my money!
Wait, what do you mean my mortgage renewal has been declined?
Why have my repayments doubled?
Qu'est qu c'est "foreclosure"?
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,239
That's very different than just dismissing out of hand any alternatives.

With all due respect, what are your alternatives? I'm not trying to sound flippant; I'm genuinely interested.

Meanwhile societies functioned for a very long time without the police
Did they function well? Do you have statistics comparing these societies without police to those with? Apart from the idea that a Police-less society sounds great... is it truly?
 
Dec 26, 2018
4,164
Talking about incrememtalism being the only way is bizzare when you're talking about France of all places.
That was more of an angle on the American side, I don't know what the centrist or liberal angle on that is in France but I don't see massive change being in the wind with Macron candidates having an edge in winning elections over leftist/socialist candidates. He had less ambitious plans than Mélenchon. Did Macron engage in massive changes? From what I've seen his alterations don't seem to be realigning the system from within.
 

Iloelemen

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,280
no it's completely independent and from the french people

this is a pure protest

</sarcasm>

honestly russias whole thing is causing instability

This is instability.
Crazy how there's an increase in instability in multiple parts of the world now. This decade's wack.
 
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Cocaloch

Banned
Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
With all due respect, what are your alternatives? I'm not trying to sound flippant; I'm genuinely interested.
I mean the various flavours of anarchism obviously are. As I said I'm not advocating for them, but you're clearly dismissing a vast literature with a very superficial knowledge of it.

Did they function well? Do you have statistics comparing these societies without police to those with? Apart from the idea that a Police-less society sounds great... is it truly?
Define well. What sort of statistics do you want exactly, and how equipped are you to deal with the contextal differences that come from comparing vastly different contexts? These sorts of questions are very difficult, if not wrong, to try to answer by the nature of history and the social sciences more broadly.

The modern police system, with the sole exception of Britain and its colonies, comes from the militarization of the states domestic control in the early 19th century. This isn't something that was put in place for the benifit of the people, and thus framing it as good until shown otherwise is odd. I'd also suggest reading about this. Maybe Hobsbawm for a general overview of the 19th century.

That was more of an angle on the American side, I don't know what the centrist or liberal angle on that is in France but I don't see massive change being in the wind with Macron candidates having an edge in winning elections over leftist/socialist candidates. He had less ambitious plans than Mélenchon. Did Macron engage in massive changes? From what I've seen his alterations don't seem to be realigning the system from within.
What you're doing here is very very different than saying only incrementalism works in the abstract, which is what I was taking issue with.
 
Oct 27, 2017
495
Boston/Helsinki
Has an orchestrated run on the banks ever worked? I recently read how Alexander Parvus had some pretty serious attempts at the start of the Russian Revolution but even at that time it didn't really work (in the sense of creating a financial collapse).

Also people are really overestimating Russia's political elite as master-mind powerful shadow puppeteers..
 
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Oct 27, 2017
1,794
It's hilarious how people have made such an all powerful boogeyman out of Russia. I guess it's an easy scapegoat for almost everything that happens in the west.
 
Dec 26, 2018
4,164
What you're doing here is very very different than saying only incrementalism works in the abstract, which is what I was taking issue with.
In America, definitely. France, I'm less sure about and from your response he seems more inclined to the incrementalists than the massive realignments political candidates like Mélenchon are pushing. In the modern context what presidents have succeeded being able to do that in France? I know the last president was from the same centrist pool.

You are right, I much rather continue to live under a system which cares fuck all for it’s people.
How would blowing up the economy help the poor? You're horribly mistaken assuming the wealthy will be in a worse position under those circumstances. That's ignoring the international repercussions with the EU and NATO.
 
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Oct 30, 2017
223
It's hilarious how people have made such an all powerful boogeyman out of Russia. I guess it's an easy scapegoat for almost everything that happens in the west.
While not the sole reason, Russias social media meddling and manipulation through Sputnik and RT is real.

Don't know how this is even up for discussion. The only debatable point is the actual reach / effectiveness of their propaganda.
 
Jun 19, 2018
1,267
You are right, I much rather continue to live under a system which cares fuck all for it’s people.
This isnt going to fucking change that. Anarchy is a dumb idea, and even then, none of these people actually know what that entails. They are just lashing out because reasons. Fuck them.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,471
I'm not fond of the yellow jackets but saying they're paid by Russia is complete nonsense.

Not to say some of them don't admire Putin. But Russia already bankrolls Marine Le Pen, who might lose ground in the euro elections if the YJ make their own list like they plan to.
 

Iloelemen

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,280
Yeah but that takes more time to write and I'm lazy.
Either way, it's mostly a bunch of morrons with some actual good people in the middle of the shit sandwich.
Wanted to clarify 'cos a purely alt-right group's shitiness is different from the shitiness of a group of diversified ideologies (with different levels of shitiness)
 

Claven

Game Localization
Verified
Aug 22, 2018
2,122
I'm not fond of the yellow jackets but saying they're paid by Russia is complete nonsense.

Not to say some of them don't admire Putin. But Russia already bankrolls Marine Le Pen, who might lose ground in the euro elections if the YJ make their own list like they plan to.
Yeah, sure. I guess hearing a lot of Russian at the protests (reported by trustworthy news teams and people personally known to me) and protesters posing with Donbass flags must be a weird coincidence then.
 
Oct 27, 2017
495
Boston/Helsinki
Yeah, sure. I guess hearing a lot of Russian at the protests (reported by trustworthy news teams and people personally known to me) and protesters posing with Donbass flags must be a weird coincidence then.
I mean, is it really taken seriously the idea that Russian secret service is funding and orchestrating the yellow vest protests? Seems pretty stupid of these shadow masterminds to set up protesters with Donbass flags...
 
Dec 26, 2018
4,164
Not to say some of them don't admire Putin. But Russia already bankrolls Marine Le Pen, who might lose ground in the euro elections if the YJ make their own list like they plan to.
Might not be a big worry as she has plenty of voters in there, the only person with a hint of competition is Mélenchon. The non-voting portion will get an advantage to whoever they choose, but they likely aren't a solid voting bloc for one political group and they become irrelevant if they sit the next election out entirely. The question is - what does the rest of the voting France think after this is over?
 

Claven

Game Localization
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Aug 22, 2018
2,122
I mean, is it really taken seriously the idea that Russian secret service is funding and orchestrating the yellow vest protests? Seems pretty stupid of these shadow masterminds to set up protesters with Donbass flags...
We talking about the same Russian intelligence services that botched the UK assassination terribly and defended their agents as "tourists", or the same Russia that denied any military presence in Ukraine and then gave the soldiers medals for their operations in Ukraine?
I mean... It's not like they're these shadowy masterminds who are half-competent at covering their tracks anyway.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,984
I mean, is it really taken seriously the idea that Russian secret service is funding and orchestrating the yellow vest protests? Seems pretty stupid of these shadow masterminds to set up protesters with Donbass flags...
If I was Russia and I really wanted to stir shit up, a pretty good tactic would be sowing just enough seeds to convince liberals that Russia are the instigators of the protest, even if they weren't. It would help deligitimise the protests and stop people taking them seriously, make any potentially reasonable steps to stop the protests less likely to happen thus prolonging the protests, leading to further instability. Calling everything a Russian conspiracy with spurious evidence really would be playing into their hands if they desire instability, contrary to what the most of the people who love to scream about Russia being the root cause of everything seem to think.

But actually it's just another dumb conspiracy theory, and one which seemingly is always tolerated on here while any other conspiracy theory seems to be shut down pretty quickly.
 

Iloelemen

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,280
Definitely not being sponsored by outside agitators.
wonder how many of these groups are being bankrolled by the Kremlin
It's actually frightening how far-reaching Russia's power is worldwide.
Here in the Philippines, Russia has been influencing Duterte's via its connection to the Chinese government. With Duterte cozying up to China's huge unpayable loan offer and the theft of the Chinese government of Philippine resources, it's crazy.
At the same time, Russia has been funding the New People's Army/NPA(The Violent Communist guerilla movement) causing uproars in the South. Duterte was doing peace talks to the group back in 2016, but last year the peace talks were no more it was full government war trackdown and kill mode on the group. As a result, we had stuff like the government targetting Teacher's unions labeling them as NPA and members of indigenous communities being held in prison for being NPA radicalizers and terrorist.

Of course, Russia played a part in putting Duterte in power via the fake news on Facebook. It was so abundant during election period.

Besides Russia influencing Pamela Anderson as shown by her ultra radical anarchist foundation which might be a KGB recruitment as shown by this Resetera Thread https://www.resetera.com/threads/pa...-to-become-revolutionaries-in-training.88068/ (she was indoctrinated by her former boyfriend Julian Assange) Russia also influenced the weird "Domination" Vegas announcement by Britney Spears and as well as its sudden cancellation last week.

Britney as a Russia puppet goes as far back as in the 2000s as shown by her Diane Sawyer interview "strong britney" and her support for Bush during her Tucker Carlson interview. Russia exploited Britney and America's misogyny and celeb culture during her breakdown starting from 2004 and peaking in early 2008 to distract the populace from what was happening politically aka the last years of Bush.
Russia's involvement explains why she's still under conservatorship, why her dancing has sucked since she broke her knee in 2004(though she is now allowed to improve a bit) and why her Instagram account is so peculiar from other celeb's with weird home fashion shows, paint sessions and insta-filtered live singing.
Of course, via her personal Instagram, she's giving secret cries of help for instance, via 🍎🍎 emojis.

Russia is also divising Japan. Out former-communist Hayao Miyazaki was brought back from retirement for a new film with some socialist and communist russia propaganda. Also noting that Naruto has subliminal Russian propaganda too.

That one episode of Bojack Horseman with the KGB agent? Russian propaganda which was clever because you never thought that a parody of the cliche Russian KGB agent can actually be propaganda itself.

Russian propaganda elements in cartoons such as that weird poster during one episode of DuckTales, that SpongeBob episode with cults, the last episode of the OG Powerpuff Girls with it's communist elements (Thought that's banned in the USA) etc.

Also in Music videos especially Lady Gaga ones from 2009-2011.

And this site itself is filled with bots. It's pretty obvious who are Russian bots and plants tbh.
 
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Claven

Game Localization
Verified
Aug 22, 2018
2,122
Oct 27, 2017
1,984
It was a Facebook discussion on the profile of a Czech reporter who was a part of the team on site, I tried to find it, but couldn't.
Regardless, here's some light reading for you that might convince you the Russian involvement isn't just a made up bullshit.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...edia-takes-aim-at-macron-as-yellow-vests-rage

Also Google "donbass flag yellow vests".
So a couple of dumbassess with a flag and the usual Russian bot nonsense, but no actual evidence the protests have been manufactured by Russia who are leveraging people who don't actually have any legitimate grievances. So a conspiracy theory then.
This is "George Soros is funding BLM" level stuff. I don't know why these conspiracy theories are tolerated here while the George Soros ones are, correctly, shut down.
 

Claven

Game Localization
Verified
Aug 22, 2018
2,122
So a couple of dumbassess with a flag and the usual Russian bot nonsense, but no actual evidence the protests have been manufactured by Russia who are leveraging people who don't actually have any legitimate grievances. So a conspiracy theory then.
This is "George Soros is funding BLM" level stuff.
Ugh. It's never just manufactured by Russia out of thin air, obviously. But Russia eagerly supports all kinds of dissent in the EU, fringe groups, alt-right, hardcore nationalist parties. There's ample evidence for that, you literally have it at your fingertips. But sure, by all means, put "Soros did it" conspiracy drivel on the same level as the yearly reports of intelligence services of EU member states. That's your problem, not mine.
 
Oct 25, 2017
266
I think there's some miscommunication here. Not all of us think they're being funded by Russia, only that they're being vulnerable to doing Russia's work for them by making France vulnerable politically and economically which helps nobody. Weakening France would be a huge win for them.

What is frustrating is how those on the left ignore what's going on from our enemies aboard because they assume Russia is our friend after the Cold War ended. This ignores various activities Russia's done over the years which has had severe severe consequences we're feeling.

History really does repeat itself. The Soviet Union did fund various left wing groups in America for their own agenda during the Cold War while Putin did the same for various left wing groups during '16 to destabilise the US. Despite being a right winger, Putin does want to relive his glory days where Russia was on top.

It is the same bullshit, but it wasn't a fantasy then and it's not a fantasy now.
Sure, I wouldn't dispute the fact that Russia has, is, and will continue to fund opposition groups in order to destabilise and undermine state institutions in the West (nor will the US cease doing the same for other regions throughout the world, but that's besides the point). Infiltration is something the left is often fully cognisant of when organising and strategising, and I can assure you that very few anarchists and anticapitalists think of Russia as allies.

At the same time, Russian meddling in these groups doesn't invalidate what are very real concerns and frustrations being voiced by the people involved, no matter how intense that expression is. Nor does said meddling somehow legitimise the state and private institutions that continue to fuck people over every single day. And it also shouldn't dictate the manner in which people confront these institutions.

Neoliberalism has and will continue to be confronted in ever more destructive ways as the inequality gap widens and the effects of climate change become ever more apparent in every aspect of people's lives.

Are there going to be special interest groups seeking to divert these movements for their own gains? You bet. But that reality doesn't somehow delegitimise those movements, especially when it seems convenient to do so because we disagree with their tactics and objectives.

Fake edit: Don't mean to imply that you think these movements are illegitimate due to possible outside interference, but that seems to be the general sentiment in this thread. I'll check those links out when I get home this evening