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French protesters want to set off bank run with withdrawals

Oct 25, 2017
1,145
Russia is a prominent bad actor for sure, but the way some posters here are talking you'd think that they are a necessary and sufficient cause of all instability in Western democracies. And that's almost as dumb as trying to improve your economic condition by starting a bank run in your own country.
 
Dec 26, 2018
4,164
Yeah, I’m not on board with this at all, even if this was properly organized, I don’t trust these referendums to not turn into majoritarian shitfests. The religious right has been hard at work the past few weeks trolling online debate platforms to put at the top a debate on gay marriage (to roll it back).
I don’t trust the crowd or the goodness of its heart to not fuck over minorities the next time they’re angry.
One word comes to mind with this: Brexit.

Russia is a prominent bad actor for sure, but the way some posters here are talking you'd think that they are a necessary and sufficient cause of all instability in Western democracies. And that's almost as dumb as trying to improve your economic condition by starting a bank run in your own country.
How bad an actor do you think they are?
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
Not directly.
You asked if they were dismissive or interested in questioning causality.
The thing is that the fact the interference is there, and the fact that it fucking works are so obvious; well, If you are still questioning it, you are either blind or suspect.
So you are implying it. This is a big part of the reason this approach is bad. Trying to ad hominem everyone that disagrees with us by implying that they are paid Russian actors is absurd.

Since I'm still not getting people to bite on this. There is a difference between questioning its causal force and saying there is nothing going on with Russia at all. Setting this up as a dichotomy is essentially a strawman.

Russia is a prominent bad actor for sure, but the way some posters here are talking you'd think that they are a necessary and sufficient cause of all instability in Western democracies. And that's almost as dumb as trying to improve your economic condition by starting a bank run in your own country.
It's less dumb and more like an unconscious self serving way to make your points unfalsifiable fueled by historonics.
 
Sep 21, 2018
341
So you are implying it. This is a big part of the reason this approach is bad. Trying to ad hominem everyone that disagrees with us by implying that they are paid Russian actors is absurd.

Since I'm still not getting people to bite on this. There is a difference between questioning it's causal force and saying there is nothing going on with Russia at all. Setting this up as a dichotomy is essentially a strawman.
No, i'm not saying they are all complicit, they can also be blind to the obvious, either because they are uninformed or willingly.
They can also refuse to admit it because the bots are (for now) pushing their side, a very human trait.
I've given you 2 examples where russian botting caused elected MP in parlament to directly carry the voice of a enemy foreign nation, what more "causal force" evidence do you need ?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,145
One word comes to mind with this: Brexit.



How bad an actor do you think they are?
I don't dispute their badness, I dispute the causal attribution of all bad things to them. If your country falls apart when a hostile foreign power takes a poke at its sore spots, your country was falling apart anyway.
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
No, i'm not saying they are all complicit, they can also be blind to the obvious, either because they are uninformed or willingly.
They can also refuse to admit it because the bots are (for now) pushing their side, a very human trait.
Either way, and regardless of what you personally are doing plenty of others here do this using your sentiment, you're leaving no room for meaningful dissent.
You're making yourself unfalsifiable for something as tricky and interpretive as causality.
Everyone that disagrees with me is compromised either directly or effectively is not a healthy outlook.
 
Feb 25, 2018
1,939
Russia is a prominent bad actor for sure, but the way some posters here are talking you'd think that they are a necessary and sufficient cause of all instability in Western democracies. And that's almost as dumb as trying to improve your economic condition by starting a bank run in your own country.
They blow on the fire.
 
Dec 26, 2018
4,164
I don't dispute their badness, I dispute the causal attribution of all bad things to them. If your country falls apart when a hostile foreign power takes a poke at its sore spots, your country was falling apart anyway.
That's incredibly vague when I was asking for specifics. What countries do you think haven't been harmed by Russia and what ones do you find credible? With your second sentence, why wouldn't we be blaming Russia throwing a lit match on gasoline? They're doing an act of malice by surgically manipulating vulnerable parts in various foreign countries, from France to the UK, for their own agenda which involves dissolving the EU and NATO. Russia doesn't get to sit out the blame for sabotaging their enemies, anymore than when America does it. Not that these operations are small affairs, Russia's putting in a lot of effort and manpower to get this done, it's not the A-Team.
 
Sep 21, 2018
341
Either way, and regardless of what you personally are doing plenty of others here do this using your sentiment, you're leaving no room for meaningful dissent.
You're making yourself unfalsifiable for something as tricky and interpretive as causality.
Everyone that disagrees with me is compromised either directly or effectively is not a healthy outlook.
Sometimes the truth is not in the middle.

also, that was an edit maybe you've missed it :
( RIC, Marrakech)
I've given you 2 examples where russian botting caused elected MP in parlament to directly carry the voice of a enemy foreign nation, what more "causal force" evidence do you need ?
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
I've given you 2 examples where russian botting caused elected MP in parlament to directly carry the voice of a enemy foreign nation, what more "causal force" evidence do you need ?
Besides the fact that causation is derived from induction and thus interpretive, that's also hardly much evidence for overwhelming causal importance.
 
Oct 25, 2017
693
I suppose the issue would be if too many wanted cash from a single location. If they're like U.S. banks, they don't keep a ton of physical cash on hand.
Then they’ll be given drafts and they have to figure out what to do with them. At least in Canada the only people banks are obligated to give you money from is cheque’s from the federal government
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,111
Portugal
I... agree? I think we're agreeing?
By stoking the flames, they are a "bad actor". They aren't the root cause of the problem, but they make it fester. Much like racial division in the US, or xenophobia in the UK. When they exploit real problems in an attempt to make them much bigger, that is a serious issue, and it is a concerned effort. I think this is what posters ITT are saying.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,514
Oct 26, 2017
6,089
I am convinced that part of the negative reception to Mr. Robot S2 was it completely eviscerating people with these types of delusions instead of entertaining their power fantasy the way it did in S1.
Part of the reason Mr. Robot is the best show ever. Season 2 and 3 are so good at showing how shit actually goes down.
 

Dragonelite

Banned
Member
Oct 29, 2017
544
And if you can't see why massively overplaying the role of Russia in events like this would actually be playing into their hands, then that's your problem.
Yeah it's kinda sad actually the current EU governments will just point to Russia instead of fixing the issues people have. Now we in the eu are wondering why the fringe parties are winnings/gaining seats in elections.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,089
Crazy. Why Resetera turned all 'this is a russian conspiracy' on the yellow vest movement. I would think there was more support seeing the very left wing tendencies in some major parts of the groups
Historically, the far left and far right have always been pushed and/or funded in some indirect ways by Russia. It's their MO

Doesn't mean the root of the protests are foreign born, but flaming the flames and making sure they continue could have a Russian backed link, which I think is likely.

But just going around and saying "Russia is causing all the issues!" is stupid and is a good way to continue to get fucked by stuff like this.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,145
That's incredibly vague when I was asking for specifics. What countries do you think haven't been harmed by Russia and what ones do you find credible? With your second sentence, why wouldn't we be blaming Russia throwing a lit match on gasoline? They're doing an act of malice by surgically manipulating vulnerable parts in various foreign countries, from France to the UK, for their own agenda which involves dissolving the EU and NATO. Russia doesn't get to sit out the blame for sabotaging their enemies, anymore than when America does it. Not that these operations are small affairs, Russia's putting in a lot of effort and manpower to get this done, it's not the A-Team.
You seem to be viewing this through the lens of interpersonal grievance. Sure, Russia should not "get to sit out the blame". Everyone should badmouth them on nextdoor and they're not invited to the block party and I hope the neighborhood kids tp their house or whatever.

But in terms of understanding the causal determinants of political instability, Russia is a sideshow.
 
Dec 26, 2018
4,164
Yeah it's kinda sad actually the current EU governments will just point to Russia instead of fixing the issues people have. Now we in the eu are wondering why the fringe parties are winnings/gaining seats in elections.
Which governments are doing this in the EU? This isn't a singular problem for the EU, it's a multifaceted one. It remains to be seen whether that will be the outcome in France.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,145
By stoking the flames, they are a "bad actor". They aren't the root cause of the problem, but they make it fester. Much like racial division in the US, or xenophobia in the UK. When they exploit real problems in an attempt to make them much bigger, that is a serious issue, and it is a concerned effort. I think this is what posters ITT are saying.
I agree with all that, but you also see a large, or at least vocal, contingent of posters in this and other threads fixating exclusively on Russia and trying to shut down anyone that doesn't.
 
Dec 26, 2018
4,164
You seem to be viewing this through the lens of interpersonal grievance. Sure, Russia should not "get to sit out the blame". Everyone should badmouth them on nextdoor and they're not invited to the block party and I hope the neighborhood kids tp their house or whatever.

But in terms of understanding the causal determinants of political instability, Russia is a sideshow.
Russia's become one of, if not the, main enemy of the West the last few years with various strategically successful attempts to destabilise at least two powerful Western nations (the UK and America), and they'll exploit this opportunity to defang France at some point - if they haven't already. France is a key figure in the EU and NATO, as well as having a nuclear arsenal in Europe. Hopefully they'll be stopped. It's too bad Macron was a disaster.

The framing in your first paragraph dismisses the danger they represent internationally.

Your refusal to address specifics tells me you're not able to back up your argument with a sufficient defence.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
2,673
Russia is a prominent bad actor for sure, but the way some posters here are talking you'd think that they are a necessary and sufficient cause of all instability in Western democracies. And that's almost as dumb as trying to improve your economic condition by starting a bank run in your own country.
Russia isn't causing the instability IMHO. They have just made the brilliant move of realizing how easy it is with modern communications to fan the coals of internal instability in western countries and they are exploding on their own from the failures of education, propaganda, racism and income inequality that are rampant in the modern world.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,111
Portugal
I really don't think that is what people are saying otherwise they wouldn't be so dismissive of people distributing their attention differently.
I agree with all that, but you also see a large, or at least vocal, contingent of posters in this and other threads fixating exclusively on Russia and trying to shut down anyone that doesn't.
Well, those posters you mention are being ignorant on this subject, then. If there are no issues to latch onto, the Russians can't do anything much to harm the EU or NATO. To focus on fixing those issues should be the number one priority. If you close the debate on doing just that, then one would fall right into Putin's hands -- in a different way than being the original intended target, but just as effectively.
 
Oct 28, 2017
12,336
Reading this thread really puts into perspective how people are into red scare shit even about countries that aren't America. Wasn't expecting that one
 
Dec 26, 2018
4,164
Well, those posters are being ignorant on this subject then. If there are no issues to latch onto, the Russians can't do anything much to harm the EU or NATO. To focus on fixing those issues should be the number one priority. If you close the debate on doing just that, then one would fall right into Putin's hands -- in a different way than being the original intended target, but just as effectively.
Nobody is doing this here. All countries have issues which can be exploited by bad actors, that's why France is having the riots. The rioters do have legit concerns, but it's a messy situation as it's a diverse group, the problems are complicated, Macron is fucking up terribly and then bad actors like Russia may be the mix. Focusing on fixing those issues will help, but Russia isn't going to go away by simply ignoring it. They know what buttons to push to get results which destroy countries from the inside. They've got two notches their belt already, and I don't want France to be the third.
 
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Oct 28, 2017
792
Ok. I might not be a banker... But wouldn't you need a serious proportion of the French population to withdraw their money before this even does anything?
As I understand it these protestors are merely are marginal group...
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
Nobody is doing this here. All countries have issues which can be exploited by bad actors, that's why France is having the riots. The rioters do have legit concerns, but it's a messy situation as it's a diverse group, the problems are complicated, Macron is fucking up terribly and then bad actors like Russia may be the mix. Focusing on fixing those issues will help, but Russia isn't going to go away by simply ignoring it. They know what buttons to push to get results which destroy countries from the inside. They've got two notches their belt already, and I don't want France to be the third.
I think regardless of your stance on the issue, it should be easy to see there's a discursive issue when people are dismissing any dissent as irrational or based on being complicit in Russia's schemes.

For the record not ignoring Russia also won't do much, it's a power doing what powers do. The best that can be done is checking the issues it's exploiting. Especially since again the way many people are using Russia in this thread is as a conversation ender not a starter.
 
Dec 26, 2018
4,164
I think regardless of your stance on the issue, it should be easy to see there's a discursive issue when people are dismissing any dissent as irrational or based on being complicit in Russia's schemes.
Except that's not the whole thread, there is a diversity of opinion here.
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
Except that's not the whole thread, there is a diversity of opinion here.
That's not the whole thread, I never said as much, but it's undeniably going on. There's still a problem in the discourse, that's what Wart and I are saying.

Frankly I'm not sure why you think this is a relevant response. I never said everyone that's talking about Russia is totally wrong and also the worst.
 

Stinkles

343 Industries
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,906
Got any proof or evidence of this? Or are you just making up conspiracy theories?
Depends what you mean.

I'm not collecting documents and samples or investigating, no, nor am I suggesting the now shrinking, but the proportionally increasingly violent, increasingly right wing movement started that way. In fact I'm personally certain it didn't.

But this isn't the start. It's now. And the lack of coherence is also exposing precisely that. Current Russian activity exploiting the situation and trying to increase violence and misinformation.

But it would be a bizarre thing for Putin's well understood social engineering project to ignore so I admit that I reasoned it might be a deliberate target for him. But no I didn't come up with that myself.


But I am reading mainstream vanilla reporting on things anyone with a Twitter account could go check themselves.

like known Russian Twitter bot armies switching from US politics to yellow vest support overnight or shared US-UK-French observations of increased calls for violence from those same bots and their us cutouts.

Or RT and Sputnik running multiple unsourced and fabricated stories about details of the yellow vest phenomenon that are designed foment anger.

Or RT claiming that 16 of its reporters have been injured in the riots (a bizarre number relative to other outlets that's also fabricated).

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...edia-takes-aim-at-macron-as-yellow-vests-rage

https://www.wsj.com/articles/france-probes-any-moscow-role-in-yellow-vest-movement-11544826863

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sou...aw0jXxYuNrQ1HyfTwbmFK1VR&ust=1547307382099286


https://www.polygraph.info/a/fact-check-russia-yellow-vests-france/29650524.html

https://www.thelocal.fr/20190110/qa...ate-goal-and-who-is-to-blame-for-the-violence

https://www.france24.com/en/20181210-france-yellow-vest-russia-denies-involvement


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/17/gilets-jaunes-grassroots-heroes-or-kremlin-tools
 
Jan 16, 2018
763
Ok. I might not be a banker... But wouldn't you need a serious proportion of the French population to withdraw their money before this even does anything?
Sure.
But "FlyRider", the dude with this proposal, is an idiot.
And Yellow Vests have a tendency to think they can be counted in the millions, where it's doubtful there are more than half a million of them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,145
Russia's become one of, if not the, main enemy of the West the last few years with various strategically successful attempts to destabilise at lest two powerful Western nations (the UK and America), and they'll exploit this opportunity to defang France at some point - if they haven't already. France is a key figure in the EU and NATO, as well as having a nuclear arsenal in Europe. Hopefully they'll be stopped. It's too bad Macron was a disaster.
The US and UK destabilised themselves and have been doing so for at least a decade, along with much of the West. Trump and Brexit are perfectly explicable in terms of the dynamics of their countries' domestic politics. The amount of resources Russia devoted to influencing those campaigns is, while not insubstantial, a pittance compared to the money and manpower devoted by the domestic campaigns themselves. If you want to claim that somehow Russia has found the secret formula for buying votes that eludes the rest of the world, then I'd say that's a rather extraordinary claim that would require strong evidence, and I haven't seen any actual evidence presented regarding the causal effects of Russian intervention. Quantitatively disentangling those effects without any other assumptions may not even be possible; the necessary data might just not exist. As such, the far more parsimonious account is that Russian interference is simply one of a large number of minor contributors riding on top of long-term trends towards polarization and populism in Western democracies.

To what extent they are an international danger in general is a separate issue. I don't doubt that Russia will become more and more dangerous as Western democracies retreat into internal bickering.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,328
For movements like Yellow Vests understanding the economy is never their strong point. In fact this lack of awareness is what makes these movements stronger, as you can be ignorant about the impact of your actions.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
5,710
In a post truth world that gave us Orange Menace and Brexit, Yellow vest still manages to surprise me with the depth of its stupidity, that's quite the achievement.

And lol @ people claiming Russia has no influence on this.
When you have French tv reporting that a non insignificant number of people they talk to are all about RussiaToday to get their news...
Or you can go to social networks and see for yourself but I guess that's #fakenews too
 
Oct 25, 2017
693
Ok. I might not be a banker... But wouldn't you need a serious proportion of the French population to withdraw their money before this even does anything?
As I understand it these protestors are merely are marginal group...
If they have any significant amount of money in the bank it will be issues as a draft unless the person wants to wait one to two weeks to get it in cash. Not really a “run” at that point.
 
May 9, 2018
986
It’s a complicated situation, obviously there are greater powers at play. But to point 100% of the blame on the OMNISCIENT BOOGEYMAN Russia is conspiracy drivel. At what point are people just accountable for their actions? Russia loves this no doubt, but we need to stop painting the picture that they’re this unstoppable force with mind control capabilities.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
5,710
It’s a complicated situation, obviously there are greater powers at play. But to point 100% of the blame on the OMNISCIENT BOOGEYMAN Russia is conspiracy drivel. At what point are people just accountable for their actions? Russia loves this no doubt, but we need to stop painting the picture that they’re this unstoppable force with mind control capabilities.
They have nothing to do with the inception of the movement, now if you think they have nothing to do with how rotten the movement became...
Either through direct actions or one of the people they bankrolled like that neonazis loving blonde.
 
Nov 4, 2017
920
I like to keep up with what's going in the reactionary circles here in Québec. Getting your money out of the "Rotschilds banks" and putting it in your matress is brought up on a regular basis and has been for years. You don't need Russians to put that idea in the head of the easily manipulated westerners. All you need is stupidity, ignorance and a pinch of racism. It's clear by now that we have a big supply of that here.

That being said, of course Russia is concern-trolling as always through RT and Sputnik and using its bots. But it doeans't mean they are the masterminds behing everything. If you listen to journalists who know Russia well, like Julia Ioffe, they're actually extremely incompetent.
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
They have nothing to do with the inception of the movement, now if you think they have nothing to do with how rotten the movement became...
Either through direct actions or one of the people they bankrolled like that neonazis loving blonde.
I've asked several people to point out who's saying Russia has no influence at all, but haven't gotten any takers. Seems like a bit of a strawman.
 
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mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
5,710
I've asked a several people to point out who's saying Russia has no influence at all, but haven't gotten any takers. Seems like a bit of a strawman.
I'm going farther, they're having a big influence by virtue of the far right leaders being bankrolled by them anyway.
they don't really need to act more directly than through social networks and its media arm because the groundwork is already done by the traitors who would sell their country anyway (and yeah someone pushing the interest of a foreign hostile power while claiming to be patriot is a traitor).
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
I'm going farther, they're having a big influence by virtue of the far right leaders being bankrolled by them anyway.
they don't really need to act more directly than through social networks and its media arm because the groundwork is already done by the traitors who would sell their country anyway (and yeah someone pushing the interest of a foreign hostile power while claiming to be patriot is a traitor).
None of this addresses what I asked.