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French rapper investigated for call to 'hang white people'

Oct 27, 2017
81
Because there is no such thing as "reverse racism".
There is no "reverse" racism. Racism is not oppression. You seem to be mistaking them.
White people are the majority and systemically dominant group, and the arbiters of power and authority over minorities.
Yeah, that's what I thought. Do you think systemic racism is the only kind of racism there is?
There can be a hatred based on race, but it isn't "racism", racism refers to the systemic, cultural, and institutional subjugation of minorities, that is the crucial component. There is a difference between punching up and punching down.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism said:
Racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity. As of the 2000s, the use of the term "racism" does not easily fall under a single definition.
It's strange that you go out of your way to not give "hatred based on race" a name. It is racism. It's not institutionalized by higher structures of power, (at least not in countries where people of color are a minority), but it is still racial discrimination, a form of racism (see below).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Racial_discrimination said:
Racial discrimination refers to discrimination against someone on the basis of their race.
There is a difference between punching up and punching down.
If a person is standing in a corner screaming "kill all <x race/ethnicity>", I would want that person to receive whatever punishment local laws deem just. I would also want that person to get socked in the mouth. There is no place for hate speech. That you seem to think being a minority grants you immunity for going on a hate speech crusade against other races is not ok. That is, if I'm reading your posts correctly, and I apologize if I'm not.

This guy is not "fighting the good fight" against the "oppressors". He was trying to make a shocking video to get attention and he did. It seems to have backfired on him, rightly so.
 

SweetChinMusic

Banned for use of alt account
Member
Sep 19, 2018
184
Dictionaries are not designed to explain the nuances of culture and the human condition, they provide a broad and easily understood non-critical definition of words, they are not history books nor sociology textbooks. Once you start resorting to citing the dictionary to describe cultural concepts when they are not designed for that you might as well pack it in.
So not only do the definitions of words not matter to you, unless they fit your agenda, even the basic USE of a dictionary doesn't matter to you unless it fits your agenda?!

You do realize how ludicrous this sounds right?
 
Dec 24, 2017
6,306
You're arguing about the definition of racism, of course the damn dictionary matters.
So, you're telling me what matters is the dictionary definition that does not take into consideration culture, power structures, societal structures, is not a sociology textbook or history textbook, that racism can be boiled down to a short paragraph and anything outside f that should be discounted because it was not included.

Damn, I guess sociology professors should pack it up, the dictionary tells us everything we need to know about cultural concepts. Okay
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,580
Belgium
Dictionaries are not designed to explain the nuances of culture and the human condition, they provide a broad and easily understood non-critical definition of words, they are not history books nor sociology textbooks. Once you start resorting to citing the dictionary to describe cultural concepts when they are not designed for that you might as well pack it in.
But Huffington post articles are?
 
Oct 27, 2017
81
So, you're telling me what matters is the dictionary definition that does not take into consideration culture, power structures, societal structures, is not a sociology textbook or history textbook, that racism can be boiled down to a short paragraph and anything outside f that should be discounted because it was not included.

Damn, I guess sociology professors should pack it up, the dictionary tells us everything we need to know about cultural concepts. Okay
But... that's what you're doing. You're saying "racism is only against minorities. Nothing else!". Is it not?
these beings of pure logic are going to beat you with the racism stick merc, you better run.
Huh. It doesn't seem like you are interested in having an honest discussion about this.
 

YuYu

Banned
Member
Jun 18, 2018
1,309
[QUOTE="RedMercury, post: 13240906, member: 36769"]Dictionaries are not designed to explain the nuances of culture and the human condition, they provide a broad and easily understood non-critical definition of words, they are not history books nor sociology textbooks. Once you start resorting to citing the dictionary to describe cultural concepts when they are not designed for that you might as well pack it in.
But Huffington post articles are?[/QUOTE]
This dude's a clown.Don't take his posts seriously.
 
Dec 24, 2017
6,306
Isn't that systemic racism, which is a subset of racism?
Racism in white-dominated society is systemic when white people control the system and have the power. If we did not have the inherent power within our systems to subjugate minorities, without the dominance it would not be racism.
This dude's a clown.Don't take his posts seriously.
Glad that came out.
But... that's what you're doing. You're saying "racism is only against minorities. Nothing else!". Is it not?
That's taking culture and oppression and institutional/systemic facets of racism into context, which the dictionary does not do.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_dictionarium

Because teachers will have inevitably told everyone, at some point in their lives, to look up what words mean in the dictionary, they seem to have taken on a quasi-mythical status as arbitrators in arguments. We're not talking about someone merely using a word that doesn't mean what they think it means, like Vizzini in The Princess Bride;[5] this is about using a definition, or claimed definition, to actually prove a point. In linguistics this would be called "prescriptivism", a school whereby words are prescribed their meaning by an authority - most linguists, philosophers, debaters and anyone sensible, however, are more keen on "descriptivism", whereby dictionaries merely describe how words are used.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,680
Nashville
Racism in white-dominated society is systemic when white people control the system and have the power. If we did not have the inherent power within our systems to subjugate minorities, without the dominance it would not be racism.
So I want to know, is do you believe that you can say something to a white guy and it would be fine? Since prejudice is under full blown racism. Don’t worry I’m not coming in hard I want your opinion on if you consider prejudice the same as racism.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,182
Racism in white-dominated society is systemic when white people control the system and have the power. If we did not have the inherent power within our systems to subjugate minorities, without the dominance it would not be racism.

Glad that came out.
The hell? Of course its racism. If I said, "All Asians are meant to be doctors " it's still making a judgment based on race even if it looks "positive". Humar and Kamar go to white castle is basically that argument.
 
Oct 27, 2017
81
ironically, i'm reading and wondering the same
I would like to think that I exposed a couple of thoughts in my posts. They may not be well constructed and they sure as hell can be wrong, of course. But I see you posting snarky/passive-aggressive one-liners. So do you want to engage in discussion? I'm absolutely willing to be wrong. And for the record: I'm not American which is why I steer clear of American race-oriented threads, as the situation there is completely alien to me, so I'm more than likely wrong when it comes to the subject of race seen from an American perspective.

Still, to hate against a given ethnicity/race regardless of society's power structures seems like racism to me.
Racism in white-dominated society is systemic when white people control the system and have the power. If we did not have the inherent power within our systems to subjugate minorities, without the dominance it would not be racism.

Glad that came out.

That's taking culture and oppression and institutional/systemic facets of racism into context, which the dictionary does not do.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_dictionarium
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Really.
I want to clarify that 1) I used the wikipedia entry that mentions both institutional/systemic facets and societal constructs, and 2) that I quoted it to make sure we were all discussing on common ground. However, I am aware (I said as much on my previous post) that I have very little context on American race dynamics, and I have not done any deep research on the subject besides what I've been briefly exposed to reading news/this forum/etc. Still, I feel that a blanket call for "kill <x race/ethnicity>" is definitely something that falls within the definition of hate speech and is connected to race. It seems acceptable to me to call it racism.

Note that I'm talking about the actions of an individual. This is not a civil's right movement calling for the end of systemic oppression by those in power. This is just a clown that wanted some attention and got it.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
7,783
Norway.
Dec 24, 2017
6,306
So I want to know, is do you believe that you can say something to a white guy and it would be fine? Since prejudice is under full blown racism. Don’t worry I’m not coming in hard I want your opinion on if you consider prejudice the same as racism.
It's not good to be prejudiced, it's not good for anyone (though I would argue in some cases it could serve necessary to have that outlook to protect yourself), but there are reasons that minorities are prejudiced, were it not for racism that subjugated them from birth through no fault of their own within society below white people they would likely not hold a racial prejudice, though I think human beings by and large will always find a way to be prejudiced to one another as we are tribal in nature and we haven't shown many signs that we are working to overcome that. To put it simply, prejudice sucks, I would absolutely say that.
 

justanindie

Banned
Member
Oct 29, 2017
79
Lol people are really jumping through hoops and arguing semantics to defend some rapper talking about killing newborn babies of a certain race. Some of you are truly sick in the head.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,517
Still, to hate against a given ethnicity/race regardless of society's power structures seems like racism to me.
I'm not here to defend or accuse the subject in the OP's article. But I can see people who want to drown out the greater context for newer ones fighting for recognition in the bigger picture. almost competing in a way. some would liken it to some overton window trying to change the conversation. but you mentioned a 'discussion', I'd like to see it continue, instead of becoming a gq on older academic definitions of race and racism in the face of people who face racism in real time.
 

SweetChinMusic

Banned for use of alt account
Member
Sep 19, 2018
184
Lol people are really jumping through hoops and arguing semantics to defend some rapper talking about killing newborn babies of a certain race. Some of you are truly sick in the head.
Not just jumping through hoops, apparently some (one) are completely redefining the definitions of words so that it meets agendas!

This is some mind blowing stuff here.

michaeljacksoneatingpopcorn.gif
 
May 9, 2018
986
As a white minority in modern day earth this scares and offends me. I’m terrified to leave the house nowadays. Lock him up!

It’s impossible to be upset about this unless you’re a fragile little snowflake
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,834
Admittedly it's fun to be racist against white people, but it does feel weird and this gravy train is probably gonna end when people realize hatred is a bad way to fight hatred
 
Nov 16, 2017
6,587
Jeez, y'all having a field day

RedMercury did not post anything that isn't accurate.


France has a well documented history of systemic racism of African Slaves. Haiti is a fantastic example. Clearly, there is something going on in France that this guy felt the need make this song. There has been a rise of Right Wing Nationalism on a global scale. Anti-Black rhetoric is WORLDWIDE. It doesn't exist in one spot.

When it comes to Racism, White people get mad defensive when it comes their way, despite being the group to introduce such a shit show concept of "Whiteness" to the western world in the first place. Its history, and history is context. White Majorities raining hell on Black minorities in their respective countries is nothing new.

You mean to tell me... Centuries of oppression and assault on a demographic..... and y'all don't expect those people to not develop some form of resentment from stifled progress over the years? Not a bit? Keep in mind, its not acceptable to demonize the white individual... Everyone is their own person and should be judged as such.

But the concept the whiteness itself?

The forces of white supremacy? the shield of white fragility?

All of that can go in the trash.


Call Nick a racist if it makes you feel better, but his stupid song doesn't equate to the centuries of actual black bodies being hung and black babies being killed. Condemn his words for sure, but don't mistake his prejudice as an assault when its clearly a reaction to the world around him.

If anything, his concept was a success because it shows how much people care when the target is white rather than anyone else.

Racism absolutely contains a double standard when it comes to white and black and causality. It comes from White people as a form of control and fear of the unknown. It comes from black people as a form of response and defense.

If the idea of black people not being considered racist bothers people, then the white people of yore should have thought about that before subjugating an entire race for free labor.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,680
Nashville
Ok, how does this SoundCloud rapper personally, directly affect you then?
Well, I mean it’s kinda makes me think of myself off as a worse person when I’m not. Not everything needs to happen physically. Being told your shit is bad for some people’s consciousness like me. In my personal opinion and experience.

Why do we need hatred to fight hatred is what I want to know? What happen to being the better person in this situation. He could have written a song that calls for empowerment of blacks who are struggling to know they are special(we are all special and deserve no hate) or he could have called for a band of unity since we got none of that shit in the world especially with fascists running my fucking country.

Are France as a country hypocritical? Yes a lot of countries are, but we need to weed out hate speech of any kind and help the individuals realize why it’s wrong.
 
Oct 26, 2017
11,148
Montreal
hate speech is hate speech.

France does have serious problems with systemic racism and discrimination but inciting death isn't the way.

associating with Dieudonné isn't a good look, especially since Dieudonné sided with Le Pen
 
Dec 24, 2017
6,306
Note that I'm talking about the actions of an individual. This is not a civil's right movement calling for the end of systemic oppression by those in power. This is just a clown that wanted some attention and got it.
I agree the guy said some clown shit, it was pretty stupid.
I want to clarify that 1) I used the wikipedia entry that mentions both institutional/systemic facets and societal constructs, and 2) that I quoted it to make sure we were all discussing on common ground. However, I am aware (I said as much on my previous post) that I have very little context on American race dynamics, and I have not done any deep research on the subject besides what I've been briefly exposed to reading news/this forum/etc. Still, I feel that a blanket call for "kill <x race/ethnicity>" is definitely something that falls within the definition of hate speech and is connected to race. It seems acceptable to me to call it racism.
Under the law, I forget what the actual charge was, if it wasn't "hate speech" it was something akin to it, I'm not familiar with whatever the statute is in France. So, basically "hate speech" and racism are not completely intertwined as concepts. The law is not prosecuting people as a racist (even if their actions are racist), it isn't necessarily a law against racism, it is a law against certain kinds of speech or actions where predominantly the motivation is racism. I don't know how better to explain it- the law intertwines the concepts because it makes legal sense to do so, but the law or the judgement of a court is only applicable in a legal instance, which you can argue does hold cultural significance but the law is not designed to intertwine the concepts in any greater context than within a courtroom or prosecution.
Not just jumping through hoops, apparently some (one) are completely redefining the definitions of words so that it meets agendas!

This is some mind blowing stuff here.

michaeljacksoneatingpopcorn.gif
You keep talking about me but not quoting me, why could that be? I would ask you to please remain civil and if you cannot do so then please leave the conversation people are trying to have in good faith.

Also, please read what DigitalOp posted, he knows his stuff way better than I do and is always really helpful and raises good points in these conversations.
 
Feb 14, 2018
619
Racism in white-dominated society is systemic when white people control the system and have the power. If we did not have the inherent power within our systems to subjugate minorities, without the dominance it would not be racism.

Glad that came out.

That's taking culture and oppression and institutional/systemic facets of racism into context, which the dictionary does not do.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_dictionarium
rationalwiki also has a good entry for the prejudice + power argument, for the curious:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prejudice_plus_power
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,173
Finland
Though It's not even that relevant to this case if there can be racism towards white people. The discussion should be if there can be hate speech towards white people. And of course there can, based on sexual orientation, gender, disabilities and so on. Also hate speech based on race is forbidden in France too.
 

justanindie

Banned
Member
Oct 29, 2017
79
As a white minority in modern day earth this scares and offends me. I’m terrified to leave the house nowadays. Lock him up!

It’s impossible to be upset about this unless you’re a fragile little snowflake
Being upset about someone threatening to kill babies in a song is weird to you? Lord I hope I was reading a different article than everyone else, because y’all are still posting paragraphs about France and systemic racism like it justifies what this person did.
 
May 9, 2018
986
Well, I mean it’s kinda makes me think of myself off as a worse person when I’m not. Not everything needs to happen physically. Being told your shit is bad for some people’s consciousness like me. In my personal opinion and experience.
You feel worse as a person now? Now that a random nobody, a hateful dude, spits out verbal garbage, it affects you on an emotional level? I’m sorry, but you just described yourself as a fragile little snowflake. We’re in the same boat, we’re white, we’re fucking fine. Get over it. Lmao.

Being upset about someone threatening to kill babies in a song is weird to you? Lord I hope I was reading a different article than everyone else, because y’all are still posting paragraphs about France and systemic racism like it justifies what this person did.
We’re white and we own literal countries. Our babies are going to be fine.
 
Oct 27, 2017
81
but you mentioned a 'discussion', I'd like to see it continue, instead of becoming a gq on older academic definitions of race and racism in the face of people who face racism in real time.
I think (or would like to anyway) that we are having that discussion. I don't know why you're using quotes. I do apologize if I'm being antagonistic, that's not my intention. I wanted to ignore this thread but the first few pages of people just casually dismissing this guy's rhetoric, calling the reaction "pearl-clutching" (a sexist term by the way) finally got to me and I figured I would rather say something before I decided to leave the community.
But I can see people who want to drown out the greater context for newer ones fighting for recognition in the bigger picture.
I think I understand what you're saying. The subject in the topic shifted for the past few pages. I myself am guilty of that. I want to make sure I'm super clear on this: I'm not downplaying real systemic/institutionalized racism. I wish that that very real and day to day racism ended way before this other type of racism (sorry, I know we don't agree on the use of the term) was addressed. Meaning, this song may make me uncomfortable but I've never been persecuted or subjugated due to my ethnicity. I have, however, experienced "diet" racism and mockery due to race. As an individual it hurt back then, but I also understand it's nothing compared to the reality an entire culture has lived.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,027
Call Nick a racist if it makes you feel better, but his stupid song doesn't equate to the centuries of actual black bodies being hung and black babies being killed. Condemn his words for sure, but don't mistake his prejudice as an assault when its clearly a reaction to the world around him.

If anything, his concept was a success because it shows how much people care when the target is white rather than anyone else.

Racism absolutely contains a double standard when it comes to white and black and causality. It comes from White people as a form of control and fear of the unknown. It comes from black people as a form of response and defense.

If the idea of black people not being considered racist bothers people, then the white people of yore should have thought about that before subjugating an entire race for free labor.
Great post DigitalOp, especially agree with this bit.
 
Dec 24, 2017
6,306
Though It's not even that relevant to this case if there can be racism towards white people. The discussion should be if there can be hate speech towards white people. And of course there can, based on sexual orientation, gender, disabilities and so on. Also hate speech based on race is forbidden in France too.
We got off on a tangent but yes, speaking in a strictly legal context the law is pretty clear in that regard.
rationalwiki also has a good entry for the prejudice + power argument, for the curious:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prejudice_plus_power
This is a decent entry, and as you can see there are arguments for and against that particular way of thinking, thank you for linking it.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,680
Nashville
You feel worse as a person now? Now that a random nobody, a hateful dude, spits out verbal garbage, it affects you on an emotional level? I’m sorry, but you just described yourself as a fragile little snowflake. We’re in the same boat, we’re white, we’re fucking fine. Get over it. Lmao.
Your talking to a dude who has no sense of pride and literally has thoughts in his head everyday telling himself how shit he is or how much of a failure he is. I also just became an uncle, and having that thought in my head is horrifying.
 
Last edited:

justanindie

Banned
Member
Oct 29, 2017
79
Okayy, I think I finally see why so many people on ERA are trying to defend this. Is it because y’all don’t want to be seen as being on the same side as the French far right politicians in the article who find those lyrics hateful? So instead y’all play a “what about” game because people don’t have the right to be angry?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,889
New York
It is when it caused a lot of comments in the press, in social media and among the government.
No it isn’t. Bigots will just use this to pretend Europeans are the real oppressed people in the world.

If he broke the law then take the appropriate action that’s fine. But this “rising” to some national debate? Pffft. I’m sure right wingers will now mention this for the next 20 years.
 
Oct 25, 2017
885
Jeez, y'all having a field day

RedMercury did not post anything that isn't accurate.


France has a well documented history of systemic racism of African Slaves. Haiti is a fantastic example. Clearly, there is something going on in France that this guy felt the need make this song. There has been a rise of Right Wing Nationalism on a global scale. Anti-Black rhetoric is WORLDWIDE. It doesn't exist in one spot.

When it comes to Racism, White people get mad defensive when it comes their way, despite being the group to introduce such a shit show concept of "Whiteness" to the western world in the first place. Its history, and history is context. White Majorities raining hell on Black minorities in their respective countries is nothing new.

You mean to tell me... Centuries of oppression and assault on a demographic..... and y'all don't expect those people to not develop some form of resentment from stifled progress over the years? Not a bit? Keep in mind, its not acceptable to demonize the white individual... Everyone is their own person and should be judged as such.

But the concept the whiteness itself?

The forces of white supremacy? the shield of white fragility?

All of that can go in the trash.


Call Nick a racist if it makes you feel better, but his stupid song doesn't equate to the centuries of actual black bodies being hung and black babies being killed. Condemn his words for sure, but don't mistake his prejudice as an assault when its clearly a reaction to the world around him.

If anything, his concept was a success because it shows how much people care when the target is white rather than anyone else.

Racism absolutely contains a double standard when it comes to white and black and causality. It comes from White people as a form of control and fear of the unknown. It comes from black people as a form of response and defense.

If the idea of black people not being considered racist bothers people, then the white people of yore should have thought about that before subjugating an entire race for free labor.
As usual, DigitalOp is one of the only people on this site who truly understands racism in the modern world.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,173
Pretty clear grounds for a hate speech investigation. People claiming otherwise are revealing more about themselves than about actual systemic racial issues in France.
 

Raein

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
980
It's staggering how many people on this forum are totally ok with shitting on white people at every opportunity while screaming for equality at the top of their lungs daily.
 
Nov 16, 2017
6,587
Okayy, I think I finally see why so many people on ERA are trying to defend this. Is it because y’all don’t want to be seen as being on the same side as the French far right politicians in the article who find those lyrics hateful? So instead y’all play a “what about” game because people don’t have the right to be angry?
Pretty clear grounds for a hate speech investigation. People claiming otherwise are revealing more about themselves than about actual systemic racial issues in France.
It's staggering how many people on this forum are totally ok with shitting on white people at every opportunity while screaming for equality at the top of their lungs daily.
Again, Im failing to find in the thread where people feel that Nick said nothing wrong.

I mean, the dude threatened babies... obviously he's over the line.

And on top of that, dude is getting investigated for it. Thats a promise. So whats the real issue here?

I can't help but feel that this thread has turned into a battle over calling Nick a racist. Thats where the anger and the debate is at right now.
 
Oct 25, 2017
206
France
No it isn’t. Bigots will just use this to pretend Europeans are the real oppressed people in the world.

If he broke the law then take the appropriate action that’s fine. But this “rising” to some national debate? Pffft. I’m sure right wingers will now mention this for the next 20 years.
There's no national debate about it, it made news during 2 days and there's another subject now ...
 
Dec 24, 2017
6,306
It's staggering how many people on this forum are totally ok with shitting on white people at every opportunity while screaming for equality at the top of their lungs daily.
Who is shitting on white people at every opportunity? Are people shitting on you? Why are you concerned about other people getting "shit on" (i.e. examined in a critical light which I guess you consider "shitting on" anyways? If white people are being criticized and you feel like people are talking about you or you're taking it personally, you need to examine why you feel like that and why it bothers you. When people talk about white fragility, this is what they mean: any and all criticism of white people is immediately internalized by white people as an attack which prevents any actual discussion from happening because of the need to be defensive.
Okayy, I think I finally see why so many people on ERA are trying to defend this. Is it because y’all don’t want to be seen as being on the same side as the French far right politicians in the article who find those lyrics hateful? So instead y’all play a “what about” game because people don’t have the right to be angry?
Most people have said that what the guy said was dumb.