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French rapper investigated for call to 'hang white people'

Oct 27, 2017
81
Again, Im failing to find in the thread where people feel that Nick said nothing wrong.
Surely you can see these posts on the first page are downplaying what this clown said? They don't literally spell out "nothing wrong", but can you earnestly tell me those posters (and others in subsequent pages) are not downplaying the guy's message?
Some random ass dude with 400 subscribers on youtube puts up a video that's anti-white so youtube and the country of France freaks the fuck out? Nothing better to focus on?
It's obviously not a message of love, but it is a message told through art and not a call to arms or anything. The reasoning that this will make kids want to kill white people is some straw-clutching fragile shit.
some of y'all would faint during a gravediggaz album
Surprise, white fragility isn't just an American problem.
I'm not one of the people who needs their smelling salts after reading the lyrics to an obviously satirical song from a nobody.
I can't speak for other posters, but those posts are basically the reason why I decided to continue to read the thread and join the discussion. By the time I got to the last page, I found some posters (who I quoted and civilly discussed with) speaking of definitions of racism/etc. As I said, I'm also partly to blame on the focus shift to "definition of racism" subject vs. the original "hate speech" topic.

By the way, thanks for the informative post above re: racism dynamics. I mean that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,834
Surely you can see these posts on the first page are downplaying what this clown said? They don't literally spell out "nothing wrong", but can you earnestly tell me those posters (and others in subsequent pages) are not downplaying the guy's message?





I can't speak for other posters, but those posts are basically the reason why I decided to continue to read the thread and join the discussion. By the time I got to the last page, I found some posters (who I quoted and civilly discussed with) speaking of definitions of racism/etc. As I said, I'm also partly to blame on the focus shift to "definition of racism" subject vs. the original "hate speech" topic.

By the way, thanks for the informative post above re: racism dynamics. I mean that.

So, 4 posters that maybe lean in the direction that your saying in a thread with almost 600 replies and you feel thats the narrative of the thread? Thats a prime example of searching for victimhood.
 
Oct 27, 2017
81
So, 4 posters that maybe lean in the direction that your saying in a thread with almost 600 replies and you feel thats the narrative of the thread? Thats a prime example of searching for victimhood.
I posted only four on the first page to show that it is happening. Do you want me to go through the entire thread? Why are you moving the goalposts? Are you interested in having an honest discussion or not?

"victimhood". Man. Really. I don't think you care about the discussion at all.

Edit: I'm going to clarify something here: I never said this is the "narrative of the thread" I quoted the person I was replying to. When I opened the thread those posts where VERY visible on the first page. As I said, that's why I decided to continue to read the thread. Please do not attack me personally.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,514
I think (or would like to anyway) that we are having that discussion. I don't know why you're using quotes. I do apologize if I'm being antagonistic, that's not my intention. I wanted to ignore this thread but the first few pages of people just casually dismissing this guy's rhetoric, calling the reaction "pearl-clutching" (a sexist term by the way) finally got to me and I figured I would rather say something before I decided to leave the community.

I think I understand what you're saying. The subject in the topic shifted for the past few pages. I myself am guilty of that. I want to make sure I'm super clear on this: I'm not downplaying real systemic/institutionalized racism. I wish that that very real and day to day racism ended way before this other type of racism (sorry, I know we don't agree on the use of the term) was addressed. Meaning, this song may make me uncomfortable but I've never been persecuted or subjugated due to my ethnicity. I have, however, experienced "diet" racism and mockery due to race. As an individual it hurt back then, but I also understand it's nothing compared to the reality an entire culture has lived.
It can feel like you're hiding out, in plain sight, waiting for the day some greater power you can't control, finds you and pulls you apart. to be a 'race' living under 'racism'. A new framing for the feeling is ptsd, which means of course there had to be initial trauma, or multiple traumas. but aside from all of that, I just wish people understood the necessary resistance to using the word "racism" when a living battleground that feels like it wants to got hotter every day, not colder revolves around the term. I understand the struggle to find a way to describe these things and I find myself using 3 or 4 words to avoid the one. It seems like we need to remember our hearts as well as our words and their meanings. Anyway underneath all of that, don't let a thread on a weekend push you out of the community here.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,834
I posted only four on the first page to show that it is happening. Do you want me to go through the entire thread? Why are you moving the goalposts? Are you interested in having an honest discussion or not?

"victimhood". Man. Really. I don't think you care about the discussion at all.
Oh please, some small time rapper says stupid shit and white people are up in arms. Does he deserve punishment, Yes. Will he get it, most likely but don't act like white people aren't constantly looking for reasons to raise the specter of "Minority revenge". And honestly, no, i don't care to dive into the minutiae of the definition of racism
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,769
Wow, so when Nazis put slavs into concentration camps, when they called them subhumans and classified them in the same manner they did with jews and killed millions of them through orchestrated famine campaigns, it wasn't racism. It was just "ethnic genocide".

This is pure Nazi apologist garbage. For real. And you aren't even aware, because you probably weren't aware that such a thing as slav concentration camps existed or don't think they were as bad. Either way, you should really read up about them and consider if this is something you want to defend:

Some select quotes:






But go on, complain about people "clutching their pearls" while you downplay the racisms that drove genocide after genocide.


Really, I'm done with this forum. I've posted a bit in some garbage sites like RPG Codex and the like and that was enough. But I've never, ever seen the degree of denialism that exists in ResetERA and people don't even blink.
what are you seriously going on about? When did I imply ethnic genocide was a “just” situation compared to racism?

Like y’all are getting worked up on a video no one saw, well overblowing it.

I’m taking an 8 hour course right now but come on
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,063
Surely you can see these posts on the first page are downplaying what this clown said? They don't literally spell out "nothing wrong", but can you earnestly tell me those posters (and others in subsequent pages) are not downplaying the guy's message?

I can't speak for other posters, but those posts are basically the reason why I decided to continue to read the thread and join the discussion. By the time I got to the last page, I found some posters (who I quoted and civilly discussed with) speaking of definitions of racism/etc. As I said, I'm also partly to blame on the focus shift to "definition of racism" subject vs. the original "hate speech" topic.

By the way, thanks for the informative post above re: racism dynamics. I mean that.
I've probably been one of the most liberal in this topic because the line I tow, for better or worse, is consistent independent of the source. I couldn't care less that my skin colour is white and think this must be about me. Objectivity matters more to me, and it seems quite clear here this is attempting to be offensive/get attention via lyrics and not an actual call to round up white babies and hang them.

If I were an artist I probably wouldn't have the confidence to try and push boundaries in any way as I don't like confrontation. Or more so I don't really like lots of attention, full stop. I think the language used is inflammatory and offensive, and I said multiple times I accept and understand people being offended. I also said I understand protest/critizing and maybe even deplatforming as I know it's all the rage these days. Try and get the guy fired, kicked off all services, tours cancelled, whatever, all that stuff Twitter goes crazy over.

What I wasn't as impressed with is when people know the context/intent of what the artist was attempting to do, even if he subjectively failed, they still double down on "BABIES! LITERAL VIOLENCE! WE'RE UNDER THREAT! SUCH A VIOLENT MAN! LOCK HIM UP! OUR KIDS AREN'T SAFE!". It's the same as the shit with James Gunn with people claiming he must be a literal paedophile because of his sketchy/offensive jokes about paedophilia.

I'm simply not impressed with people pretending to be the "thought police", mindreaders or claiming serious accusations need no evidence, just ignore context and accuse. Especially not around artists or artistic merits, something which has historically had moral crusaders or busybodies make outrageous claims.

But then again, I rented Cannibal Holocaust with my mates in high school for a laugh (to be shocked and because everyone had that friend in school who looked older), I grew up seeing all kinds of fucked up shit in horror movies, full stop, and I was fairly into metal and heavy metal music. From quite young I've been socialised to be able to separate art/fiction from reality/credible concerns or threats. I would have thought most of this forum would be far better at that considering many of you play those violent video games the Conservatives tried to tell us all would lead to people being violent. Maybe some of you even listened to... SATANIC MUSIC!!!

DigitalOp's post is some good reading as to why this artist may have attempted to do this

In an interview with Le Parisien, Conrad says the video is "fiction" and that he "wanted to reverse the roles of the white man and the black man".

He said he understood the controversy and that the "shock was wanted, necessary, but not at such a level".

"We must also put things in perspective: this clip, published as part of the release of my EP, was also part of a mini-series whose episodes would complement, argue my thinking," he said.
Yeah yeah, maybe he did fail to do that successfully and other artists can do better with some sort of shock "here's what racism is like" message via music.

But expecting me to think other white people are literally shaking at home right now, thinking about white genocide, worrying profusely about anti-white racism and somehow thinking Era is the bastion of white hate on the internet? Now that's some fucking comedy.

It's an offensive rap song that subjectively fails to do what the artist attempted. That's it. You might be offended, but I'm not buying anyone literally feels threatened by this. None of you would even know about this dumb song unless it was signal boosted via the internet as a threat against white people.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
1,834
This whole thread and situation reminds me of body Count and the uproar over the song, Cop Killer. It's so easy for lyrics to be taken literally when it suits the agenda of white people. Another small group makes a song with inflammatory lyrics and suddenly it's national and even international news and is speaking to a rise in hatred or so the powers that be would have you believe. This always happens with racial issues or truthfully any issue conservatives want to use as a platform for their beliefs.

i mean if the guy broke the law, then give him his fine and move on. This really isn't worth all the "concern" and "fear"
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,827
Is that the video? Are you actively promoting it for some reason?
Just so we are clear here you neither want to answer my question nor apologize?
If that's the case just say so.
I can't believe this thread. RedMercury DigitalOp Nepenthe Y'all gonna drive away all the majorities.
Don't you have better things to do than attempting to create a circle jerk in a thread about some dude calling to hang white people and their babies?
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,799
This situation just makes me wonder how it'd be if a fictional movie came out depicting white people being slaves, enduring apartheid, and/or going through institutionalised racism in the modern era. Just playing everything straight and serious; no comedic or ironic angle.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,717
This whole thread and situation reminds me of body Count and the uproar over the song, Cop Killer. It's so easy for lyrics to be taken literally when it suits the agenda of white people. Another small group makes a song with inflammatory lyrics and suddenly it's national and even international news and is speaking to a rise in hatred or so the powers that be would have you believe. This always happens with racial issues or truthfully any issue conservatives want to use as a platform for their beliefs.

i mean if the guy broke the law, then give him his fine and move on. This really isn't worth all the "concern" and "fear"
There's an uproar for everything. Doesn't matter which side. As long as as call bullshit on both of them.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,827
This situation just makes me wonder how it'd be if a fictional movie came out depicting white people being slaves, enduring apartheid, and/or going through institutionalised racism in the modern era. Just playing everything straight and serious; no comedic or ironic angle.
None of those things would be hatespeech.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,799
None of those things would be hatespeech.
I'm thinking more of how it'd be received. It'd definitely be a different situation than this one, but the thing is, I'm seeing ridiculous hate aimed at the singer and his ethnicity proportional to the ridiculous hate in his video. The difference is, you usually only see that kind of response on one end of the spectrum, and not from the other, as depicted in this video.
 

justanindie

Banned
Member
Oct 29, 2017
79
Again, Im failing to find in the thread where people feel that Nick said nothing wrong.

I mean, the dude threatened babies... obviously he's over the line.

And on top of that, dude is getting investigated for it. Thats a promise. So whats the real issue here?

I can't help but feel that this thread has turned into a battle over calling Nick a racist. Thats where the anger and the debate is at right now.
Me and you both are trying to find the real issue. I’m confused at why there’s 12 pages of arguing, when there shouldn’t be a two sides to this case. Clearly a guy making a song about hanging newborn white babies is a racist, he saved everyone the arguments but people are still trying to argue semantics. You don’t see how arguing semantics is problematic in a thread about someone threatening to hang babies? It’s trivial and dumb.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,827
I'm thinking more of how it'd be received. It'd definitely be a different situation than this one, but the thing is, I'm seeing ridiculous hate aimed at the singer and his ethnicity proportional to the ridiculous hate in his video.
You do? Certainly not in this thread? Like, of course right wing assholes are having a gourmet feast with this shit but otherwise?
I would guess if such a movie exists the same people who scream Soros or Clinton, meaning your average Trump voter,would throw a serious fit (maybe some old ones would get a heart attack) but that's it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,799
You do? Certainly not in this thread? Like, of course right wing assholes are having a gourmet feast with this shit but otherwise?
I would guess if such a movie exists the same people who scream Soros or Clinton, meaning your average Trump voter,would throw a serious fit (maybe some old ones would get a heart attack) but that's it.
No, not in this thread. I'm talking about comments calling the singer a monkey, people on Twitter sending death threats to wrong Nick Conrads, people telling him to go back to his country, and people generally threatening him with what he's depicting in his video. Except, that's always how it is on the internet; it's nothing new when you're a person of color. What I feel is new, is that kind of dumb response towards white people, in the form of this video.
 
Dec 24, 2017
6,300
I can't believe this thread. RedMercury DigitalOp Nepenthe Y'all gonna drive away all the majorities.
I hope not, I don't want to drive people away. Racists, sure, but if we can have a civil discussion about this stuff the forum is better for it. This should be a place where these questions can be asked and points can be raised. Ideally, that would be a conversation that brings people in, for the right reasons.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,827
Well we haven’t heard the dialogue yet
Even if it would picture an alternate universe where PoC are whipping white people on cotton fields and call them crackers all the time or it would show dozens of white people getting murdered it wouldn't be hatespeech if there's a context to those actions, as dumb or bad that context might be. The movie can have racism as a theme, or it can just be racist.
If it's just a video of a dude telling his audience to go and kill white people it would be hatespeech.
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,568
Even if it would picture an alternate universe where PoC are whipping white people on cotton fields and call them crackers all the time or it would show dozens of white people getting murdered it wouldn't be hatespeech if there's a context to those actions, as dumb or bad that context might be. The movie can have racism as a theme, or it can just be racist.
If it's just a video of a dude telling his audience to go and kill white people it would be hatespeech.
The movie can bungle its message just as well as a song can.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,063
This whole thread and situation reminds me of body Count and the uproar over the song, Cop Killer. It's so easy for lyrics to be taken literally when it suits the agenda of white people. Another small group makes a song with inflammatory lyrics and suddenly it's national and even international news and is speaking to a rise in hatred or so the powers that be would have you believe. This always happens with racial issues or truthfully any issue conservatives want to use as a platform for their beliefs.

i mean if the guy broke the law, then give him his fine and move on. This really isn't worth all the "concern" and "fear"
It's not even about saying rap music, or even music, in general, cannot be looked into. There are issues in rap music ranging from overuse of the word f*ggot, white rappers using racial slurs, overuse of derogatory language against women and so on. Yeah okay, there are conversations that can be had there even with artistic merit on the table. Many already have said conversations. Some artists listen and engage. Some artists don't. Some of said artists get popular, others careers fail.

But it's a completely different ball game to be making claims that someone is literally calling for violence, extermination or genocide, instead of taking it for what if often is in music. Artists pushing boundaries, some being offensive with an attempt at having a purpose, or others just being offensive to purposefully provoke. This topic is more touchy as well because 9 times out of 10 if it is a white artist or white person, more people are willing to do cartwheels to give them the benefit of the doubt they are simply being offensive, tried to make a point or aren't actually being literal. The rare-ish case of it being a black man who makes international news and it's often far more being placed on "But he really might be literal here. How can we trust him? I bet he actually eats babies". Even if the guy himself already answered to the media and did try to state it was an attempt at a political message, not a literal call to violence.

The whole criticize him thing has been fine from the start of this topic, including me saying the usual avenues of protest or contacting his platforms is all fair game if you think it's necessary. It is offensive music and lyrics. The Government being involved and potentially even charging him, I just don't think that's necessary here. Let his career fall on its own sword if no one wants to listen to/support his music.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,871
I hope not, I don't want to drive people away. Racists, sure, but if we can have a civil discussion about this stuff the forum is better for it. This should be a place where these questions can be asked and points can be raised. Ideally, that would be a conversation that brings people in, for the right reasons.
Unless I missed something, seems like you just ended up arguing with people who either don't want to understand you or are incapable of it.
 
Dec 24, 2017
6,300
Even if it would picture an alternate universe where PoC are whipping white people on cotton fields and call them crackers all the time or it would show dozens of white people getting murdered it wouldn't be hatespeech if there's a context to those actions, as dumb or bad that context might be. The movie can have racism as a theme, or it can just be racist.
If it's just a video of a dude telling his audience to go and kill white people it would be hatespeech.
Well let's explore this a bit, because there is context to this video:
In an interview with Le Parisien, Conrad says the video is "fiction" and that he "wanted to reverse the roles of the white man and the black man".

He said he understood the controversy and that the "shock was wanted, necessary, but not at such a level".

"We must also put things in perspective: this clip, published as part of the release of my EP, was also part of a mini-series whose episodes would complement, argue my thinking," he said.
If the guy was doing this for artistic purposes to demonstrate a point, and in an artistic sense he thought it thematically necessary, and intended to shock people as he felt the shock necessary to the processing of his message, why is it treated differently? I'm not endorsing the message of killing babies and he knew there would be backlash, but doesn't it seem like a double standard when it's a black person doing it as far as the willingness to examine context?
 
Dec 24, 2017
6,300
Unless I missed something, seems like you just ended up arguing with people who either don't want to understand you or are incapable of it.
Oh yeah, they def don't want to, but maybe some people seeing that exchange will be spurred to jump in and have a discussion in good faith instead of resorting to stuff like:
This dude's a clown.Don't take his posts seriously.
Edit: Double post, sorry
 
May 31, 2018
4,719
If the guy was doing this for artistic purposes to demonstrate a point, and in an artistic sense he thought it thematically necessary, and intended to shock people as he felt the shock necessary to the processing of his message, why is it treated differently? I'm not endorsing the message of killing babies and he knew there would be backlash, but doesn't it seem like a double standard when it's a black person doing it as far as the willingness to examine context?
It's because the song is in first person and, as such, can be easily construed as a statement of intent. There's no attempt from the rapper to separate his own self from the self he portrays in that song like there is in many other examples of extremist views being depicted in media. It doesn't matter whether he personally says it's fiction or not because, in the eyes of the French judiciary, they clearly do not see that as a fair excuse. To me that's fair as, after all, if one could deflect claims of hate speech simply by saying their speech was "fictional" after the fact then it would allow actually dangerous groups to hide behind the idea that the hateful rhetoric they're spouting isn't meant to be taken completely literally.
 
Dec 24, 2017
6,300
It's because the song is in first person and, as such, can be easily construed as a statement of intent. There's no attempt from the rapper to separate his own self from the self he portrays in that song like there is in many other examples of extremist views being depicted in media. It doesn't matter whether he personally says it's fiction or not because, in the eyes of the French judiciary, they clearly do not see that as a fair excuse. To me that's fair as, after all, if one could deflect claims of hate speech simply by saying their speech was "fictional" after the fact then it would allow actually dangerous groups to hide behind the idea that the hateful rhetoric they're spouting isn't meant to be taken completely literally.
Even when coupled with a clearly fictional music video, as part of a larger project?
 

Dragnipur

Banned
Member
Feb 27, 2018
741
I hope not, I don't want to drive people away. Racists, sure, but if we can have a civil discussion about this stuff the forum is better for it. This should be a place where these questions can be asked and points can be raised. Ideally, that would be a conversation that brings people in, for the right reasons.
You aren't pushing anyone away. Nothing wrong with disagreement lol
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,063
It's because the song is in first person and, as such, can be easily construed as a statement of intent. There's no attempt from the rapper to separate his own self from the self he portrays in that song like there is in many other examples of extremist views being depicted in media. It doesn't matter whether he personally says it's fiction or not because, in the eyes of the French judiciary, they clearly do not see that as a fair excuse. To me that's fair as, after all, if one could deflect claims of hate speech simply by saying their speech was "fictional" after the fact then it would allow actually dangerous groups to hide behind the idea that the hateful rhetoric they're spouting isn't meant to be taken completely literally.
Well, I'd like to think most people who can use their brains can easily see an actual Nazi or white supremacist hiding behind music lyrics. Or anyone else who is a credible threat. I brought up the some of the metal scene earlier for having offensive lyrics (notable black/death/gore metal or some of the subsets), well, even that being the case many in the scene do try to clean up a mess if it arrives

http://www.metalsucks.net/2016/01/2...-anselmo-off-the-hook-for-his-racist-remarks/

https://www.loudersound.com/features/why-phil-anselmo-s-white-power-outburst-shouldn-t-be-ignored

And Slipknot might not exactly be death metal or all that "edgy" with their lyrics, but Corey Taylor is a fucking great dude

Slipknot frontman Corey Taylor is often the first to throw his hat into the ring, offering his opinion on anything from politics to music. But when Philip Anselmo gave a Nazi salute and barked "White power!" at the recent 2016 Dimebash event, Taylor held back on commenting. However, during a recent chat, the vocalist finally weighed in on the controversy surrounding the actions that took place that night.

When the Guardian asked Taylor for his response to Anselmo's racially charged actions, he revealed why he had been silent until now, stating, "I’ve been watching this all and I’ve kept mum for the most part, because I wasn’t there. So I don’t know the background on what happened, I haven’t seen the video of it – though I’ve been told by many people that it’s blatant, and there’s no way to misrepresent what was done."


He goes on to say that this is not an issue exclusive to heavy metal and comments on what Slipknot stands for, offering, "This is a bigger problem than what happened that night. Slipknot has dedicated itself to bringing people together, to fighting racism, to fighting hate in general since the day we were started. I don’t have time for people who judge other people by the color of their skin. If that in itself offends some of my fans, then I’m sorry, you’re wrong. I don’t ever want our fans to feel like we’re judging them because of color, religion, culture, upbringing, etc. We welcome everyone, we always have and we always will."

"I know there is a problem in metal," the masked singer continued, "And it all comes down to, at least in America, where you grow up and what that culture is passed on from: parents, family members, friends, adults. It’s a generational thing." Indicating strides had been made, Taylor lamented the fact that racism still permeates music, saying, "I thought we were close to phasing it out, but unfortunately I was proven wrong. So I just dedicate myself to fighting it. It’s across the board in music, though – it’s not a specifically metal thing. But it has come up in the metal community. It’s risen its ugly head because of the incident we’re talking about."

While recognizing a problem exists, Taylor praises the community values of metal when he said, "I’ve not only played a lot of metal shows, I’ve been to a lot of metal shows, and I know for a fact they are quite diverse and they always have been. We welcome the tribe of misfits -- we’re the island of misfit toys, and we always have been. It will take very little to eradicate racism from metal because the majority of it isn’t racist."

Anselmo's actions were met head-on with hostility from fellow musicians, most notably Robb Flynn of Machine Head and Anthrax's Scott Ian. Flynn, who took part in the Dimebash performance, was the first to take a public platform to voice his disgust, uploading an 11 minute video condemning Anselmo's excuses. Ian felt if the Panteralegend was truly sorry, he would make a donation to the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which is an organization that confronts racism and teaches lessons about the Holocaust.

Anselmo has since issued a second apology and even urged his bandmates in Down to continue without him. Since the incident, Down have been booted from two shows, including a hometown gig in New Orleans. Meanwhile, the decision not to remove Down from France's Hellfest by organizers led to the French government pulling their fundingfrom the event.
http://loudwire.com/slipknot-corey-taylor-philip-anselmo-controversy-racism/

It's almost as if artists can sing about some fucked up stuff but still be really decent people. A lot of the metal scene is your truest form of punks, outside of the actual punk scene, where irrespective of how offensive music lyrics are most of the culture is deeply rooted in acceptance, anti-racism, supporting the individual and not oppressing.

We don't know enough personally about Nick Conrad, but he has gone on record to the media to explain it was him trying to use artistic license to provoke/make people think, not literally call for violence. Now, I'm hardly clued up on the rap scene, it's just not really my personal listening taste, but I do know many POC in the rap scene use provocative language and/or music sometimes to try and make a point or relay angst or frustration, especially with racial issues.

As long as the source is a decent person, I don't quite personally see how that's any different than some of the metal scene. Again using offensive language or lyrics. You don't need to like the music, appreciate it or even find the lyrics "acceptable", that's all fine and your subjective opinions, but calling in the Government to go after music lyrics shouldn't be taken lightly. Being critical of Conrad and/or saying you find his song offensive isn't the same as saying "Lock him up! This is literal incitement!".
 
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May 31, 2018
4,719
Even when coupled with a clearly fictional music video, as part of a larger project?
"Clearly fictional" might be literally true yet neither the video nor the lyrics make any attempt to convince people that the rhetoric within should be taken as fictional and, thus, something one should not try and replicate in real life. As I said, the author can explain what they meant in an after-the-fact interview or in another seperate video/song but in terms of the effects speech such as his may have on an audience who listens to it that's simply not good enough.

The French government's position on this matter seems to stem from the idea that hate speech is not about the literal intent of the author but in the damage it can do to society and the groups within. They've clearly sees his explanations yet they view them as a case of the "death of the author", a concept which I have seen used many, many times here to rightfully explain why problematic content regarding minority groups or women does not simply become harmless because the author said something contradictory in an interview.

Edited out to not clutter things up
Why do you keep referencing other material that isn't hate speech made in countries with entirely different hate speech laws to France?
 

Oheao

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
4,597
中国,北京市
I know that being discriminated against from birth due to your mere existence is bound to result in emotional outbursts, but I can guarantee that most white people are just going to see the lyrics and won't care about the circumstances that result in such anger.
 
Dec 24, 2017
6,300
"Clearly fictional" might be literally true yet neither the video nor the lyrics make any attempt to convince people that the rhetoric within should be taken as fictional and, thus, something one should not try and replicate in real life. As I said, the author can explain what they meant in an after-the-fact interview or in another seperate video/song but in terms of the effects speech such as his may have on an audience who listens to it that's simply not good enough.

The French government's position on this matter seems to stem from the idea that hate speech is not about the literal intent of the author but in the damage it can do to society and the groups within. They've clearly sees his explanations yet they view them as a case of the "death of the author", a concept which I have seen used many, many times here to rightfully explain why problematic content regarding minority groups or women does not simply become harmless because the author said something contradictory in an interview.
That's a fair view I think
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,063
"Clearly fictional" might be literally true yet neither the video nor the lyrics make any attempt to convince people that the rhetoric within should be taken as fictional and, thus, something one should not try and replicate in real life. As I said, the author can explain what they meant in an after-the-fact interview or in another seperate video/song but in terms of the effects speech such as his may have on an audience who listens to it that's simply not good enough.

The French government's position on this matter seems to stem from the idea that hate speech is not about the literal intent of the author but in the damage it can do to society and the groups within. They've clearly sees his explanations yet they view them as a case of the "death of the author", a concept which I have seen used many, many times here to rightfully explain why problematic content regarding minority groups or women does not simply become harmless because the author said something contradictory in an interview.

Why do you keep referencing other material that isn't hate speech made in countries with entirely different hate speech laws to France?
Because it's relevant in my opinion to trying to get some cogs turning in brains in this topic to how offensive artistic content can exist and it isn't literal. As for comparing to other countries, maybe because I disagree with France's use of hate speech here if the artist is credibly attempting to use artistic merit. Why wouldn't I try to say if other countries can do this without complete social erosion and civilization folding on itself, why can't France? They haven't passed judgement yet but I'm going to guess to "make a point" they will hand down some charge. Especially with global eyes on this.

You also brought up this

To me that's fair as, after all, if one could deflect claims of hate speech simply by saying their speech was "fictional" after the fact then it would allow actually dangerous groups to hide behind the idea that the hateful rhetoric they're spouting isn't meant to be taken completely literally.
A point that seems to be coming up in this topic or being hinted at - Maybe all the Nazis will just start singing songs and humanity will be none the wiser! Yeah, well, I don't expect Richard Spencer to be starting rapping any time soon.

As I said it's almost as if we as a society tend to be able to do a good job of differentiating art from the literal. Maybe have a bit more confidence in ourselves?
 
Nov 2, 2017
685
what are you seriously going on about? When did I imply ethnic genocide was a “just” situation compared to racism
Me? What are YOU going on about? You are the one saying that it wasn't racist when Hitler genocided slavs and otherwise downplaying racism against Eastern Europeans.

Seriously, I'm out.