We are allowed to criticize them for having that concept. Also no one is forcing FROM to do anything, they can and will do whatever they want obviously. But we are allowed to criticize them for a lack of options that we think should be in the game.
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FromSoftware games truly evokes the sense of accomplishment, and I am glad they don't have an Easy mode (see Staff Post)
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We are allowed to criticize them for having that concept. Also no one is forcing FROM to do anything, they can and will do whatever they want obviously. But we are allowed to criticize them for a lack of options that we think should be in the game.
You are right. The argument could be made for Dark Souls as you can make it easier through summoning, and adding a difficulty dilutes that whole communal experience somewhat. I don't think it's an argument that can be made for Sekiro, however.
Textbook example of "everyone asking others to see things from their point of view and not giving a shit about others' point of view". What about Player 3 who would switch to Easy mode if given the option but prefers not to have that option?
Nobody in this thread said "Easy makes the game too easy for you, Player 2". That's a strawman you made on the spot. And it would be nice if we didn't use "trolling", let alone "concern trolling", to describe "people giving their opinions on what they want".
Of course; when out of arguments, pretend the other is angry. :D
And why exactly would I be upset at something that has 0% chance of happening?
Fromsoft obviously has a target audience. I feel for people with disabilities but what exactly is the solution here? Implement a godmode for the 0.5% of disabled people who may or may not buy the game?
There is no more dexterity needed to beat a From game than any other of the countless AAA games with difficulty settings.
They just punish you more for playing poorly.
You implied in the tone of all of your posts.
Entitled? Is an easy mode that exists for people with disabilities/limitations an entitlement?
Accessibility isn't bullshit and maybe some of us that as superseding some nebulous "compromises".
Fucking exactly. From Software's games aren't immune from criticism over this issue.
Explain how they compromise their vision by making a difficult ass game, as it already is. And then when it's done, add wimpy mode that gives the player buffs? Explain.
Because nothing is stopping then from putting a disclaimer that says, "We recommend normal difficulty for the best experience".
Literally no good reason NOT to add an accessibility mode or some such. None. Not one other than elitism and bullshit videogame "street cred" and notoriety.
You have a very good point ,but developers also have the right to release the game with the difficulty according to their vision/strategy, in this case Soul like games are popular because they are difficult.thats their niche/meme
However imo the best solution would be decreasing the difficulty on normal mode, it would still be hard,but no ridiculously punishing in some cases, and leave NG+ for the really hardcores to play with
I feel like this entire line of conversation would be improved if people were just specific in what disabilities they're referring to and how they prevent people from completing From games in particular.
What you're obstinately refusing to understand is that difficulty in From Software games is not only a measure of skill or dexterity. Difficulty is baked into the games' design from the very foundation. It influences the game. It's a part of the game's content. Difficulty, quite fundamentally, changes the content of the game, is used to convey the messages of the game, and the way the player reacts/is expected to react to progress through the game forms the metanarrative, and that too depends on difficulty. The closest analogy I can think of right now is something like reading Ulysses or The Divine Comedy, where progress is difficult.
The biggest reason people cherish the difficulty of From Software games is because of how it accentuates, emphasises and develops the entire experience- hell, thanks to how it is, in many ways, fundamental to the experience.
In From Software games, difficulty is content. Difficulty is message. Difficulty is story.
There are not so many games out there for which you can say the same thing.
Quoting you for clarification, there's a reason I started that post with "Able-bodied people". Disability accommodations are a different matter.
Plenty of disabled people play Fromsoft games so I'm not sure why that argument keeps coming up.
Helluva thread backfire in here.
Personally, I like more difficulty. It add what I like to call "texture" to the experience. Little things matter more. Decisions are more consequential. Environmental design elements that you wouldn't pay any attention to on easy (like walls for cover) become critical aspects of play in harder difficulties. You have to *respect* the enemy AI.
That being said, it doesn't need to be the only way to experience a game. Ninja Gaiden Black was my shit and beating it on harder difficulties was a very satisfying experience. But I probably wouldn't have been playing New Game+ modes if I hadn't been able to beat the game and enjoy it to start with. I'd say the same for Nier: Automata.
Not everyone needs an experience like I Wanna Be The Boshy.
Personally, I like more difficulty. It add what I like to call "texture" to the experience. Little things matter more. Decisions are more consequential. Environmental design elements that you wouldn't pay any attention to on easy (like walls for cover) become critical aspects of play in harder difficulties. You have to *respect* the enemy AI.
That being said, it doesn't need to be the only way to experience a game. Ninja Gaiden Black was my shit and beating it on harder difficulties was a very satisfying experience. But I probably wouldn't have been playing New Game+ modes if I hadn't been able to beat the game and enjoy it to start with. I'd say the same for Nier: Automata.
Not everyone needs an experience like I Wanna Be The Boshy.
hey, they modded out Mr. X in RE2R, I'm sure, they will remove easy mode in your FROM game via mod, so everyone can be happy!
Reckon they'd enjoy it all the same if other players could play the game on a lower difficulty.
Another thing they could do is prevent you from switching difficulty on an existing playthrough. I was tempted to do that with DMC5 but I saw I'd have to start a new game. That would help OP keep their pride.
Yep, I'm with you on that one Blade Wolf. It's like when I play Bayonetta, I tend to do first run on Normal, then Hard and then I usually stick to Hard for subsequent playthroughs. But I'd love if the game forced me to play on Infinite Climax right away, I'd be better at it and have more of sense of accomplishment for doing so. Not having a choice is sometimes more liberating and meaningful than having one.
I can't begin to convey how little I think of you right now.
I agree there shouldn't be an "easy" setting but only because traditionally that's what summoning was for. Summoning was such a great mechanic to help self select your own difficulty.
Summoning or an equivalent should absolutely be included in all these games.
Summoning or an equivalent should absolutely be included in all these games.
Of course. That's just part of my case against the criticism. This is all really circular.
You very well could be right about Sekiro. I've only watched streams of it so far, honestly. But seeing as how it's a singleplayer thing with mod support that's departing from Souls in a lot of ways, I suspect more difficulty options wouldn't hurt its message as much if at all.
OP
OP
Countless people have answered that question in this 15 page thread.
You just don't like the answer.
Agreed. The argument that it is exclusionary to people with physical disabilities is a completely reasonable one. But a person suggesting that it is exclusionary because they, a fully able-bodied person "can't" play it is completely unequivolent.
You can get better and overcome the challenge, you just don't want to. There is nothing wrong with that but if the developers have a single difficulty level as a central part of their vision I see no reason why they shouldn't do it just because there are people who are fully capable of beating it but don't want to do it. At that point you're just not interested in what the game is, and again, that's totally fine.
This very different than a physical disability getting in the way of someone playing the game.
Isn't that the case with every single discussion on this website though?
True, Sekiro and Dark Souls 2 do have difficulty settings. But somehow I doubt that's what people have in mind haha...
That does raise an interesting question though. If the Company of Champions is Hard Mode, does this make the non-covenant Easy Mode? What if the Easy mode is still too hard for some people, but too easy for others?
Who decides what is truly an Easy mode?
Sekiro, IMO, but I haven't finished it yet.
Nioh has some ridiculous optional challenges though, like insane waves of enemies and bosses, plus various difficulty settings in NG+ and later. Nioh on "Way of the Nioh" is probably harder than anything in Sekiro (I never made it that far, it's like NG++++). Then again, Nioh is an RPG, and so has "cheese" possibilities like grinding, making OP/cheese builds, etc.
But, overall, NG only, I think Sekiro is harsher.
Good point.
Disclaimers only do so much. If a developer adds an advertised difficulty mode to a game, I think most players would agree that they then have a responsibility for balancing it properly and making that experience enjoyable or else they will justly complain about the game having broken modes.
To bring up Ace Combat 7 again, I think a pretty strong argument could be made that the developers adding an optional simplified control scheme actually hurt their Metacritic score.
Great post. Saying that adding difficulty levels wouldn't change things is being disingenuous because it completely changes the creators design philosophy. Games with multiple difficult settings usually doesn't change much on the hardest setting outside of health and damage because it would require them to fundamentally rework their systems to accommodate every play style. It is unfair to expect every game to accommodate every type of player.
I've read the non answers. Even implied within my own post. If the developer feels the way they do, it's whatever. Guess nothing can be done.
It's still stupid.
But IF they did, why on Earth would it be a problem for some of you.
Maybe they don't add Easy mode because the game would be really boring/bad in it. Or would require too many changes to the core gameplay to make it feel satisfying on both difficulties. Maybe they feel doing this doesn't really add enough sales while also losing out sales on existing audience.
Also I hate how these threads usually resort to name calling Entitled and Elitists. Its pretty fkin stupid tbh.
Also I hate how these threads usually resort to name calling Entitled and Elitists. Its pretty fkin stupid tbh.
Yeah sorry, I was agreeing with you. They're two very different things. If people were in here crying out for more control or visual options for disabled people for example, my tune would be very different.
Like I say though, difficulty options are fine, but Miyazaki not including them is also fine. People who just find the games too difficult Vs other games don't have to play. From doesn't owe you anything. Let them do their thing, there's a lot of stuff to play out there so I don't get why they're being singled out when there's so much else on offer.
Mod.
And yeah, they've got trainers that basically make you a god.
Spending 2 hours failing to kill the same boss due to shitty animations is what I call waste of time, not sense of accomplishment.
I've played through Dark Souls, and after beating certain parts of the game I didn't feel accomplishment, I felt relief I would not have to do it again.
I've played through Dark Souls, and after beating certain parts of the game I didn't feel accomplishment, I felt relief I would not have to do it again.
Not every game needs to be for everyone. Not every movie comes with an explanation. Not every book comes in an alternative version so everyone can enjoy it. I apploud games becomeing more accessible for everyone, but not every game has to. I sincerely hope from stays close to their DNA and keeps doing what they are doing. Making custom tailored edge on your seat experiences with no other option than to suck it up. I agree with the OP completely. The sense of accomplishment diminishes when i can just toggle it to easy mode. For me at least.
I think if From add Easy mode it wouldn't actually be a problem for most people right now.
But I think they are afraid that if more people end up buying the game because of easy mode. The developer would start catering more to that audience and eventually Easy mode would be the "standard" for the game and become the definitive experience. Either that OR , the easy mode is a mediocre experience which sorta gives the brand a negative perception.
Idk thats all I could think of. Personally I dont think it would cause any harm. Perhaps it could hamper brand growth as newcomers immediately go to easy mode and then dont really invest in the brand because it was a "meh" game.
OP
OP
Exactly, which is a great thing for people who didn't like the default difficulty.
Didn't know why people insist in having an easy mode.
How is that a great thing when it's even worse than having an easy mode?
They do this in Sekiro in NG+ with an item you get at the beginning of the game. You can give it back to the person who gave it to you to make enemies do chip damage on attacks you don't block perfectly (technically this is the "medium" setting because there is a harder one still), but if you play on this setting and don't like it you can take the item back, but you then lose the option to play without it. Most new players don't know about this item. You could say they were playing on the easy difficulty this whole time.
They're not that, though.
I remember an insightful Twitter thread about how good Dark Souls was for them from an accessibility standpoint. And I mean accessibility not in terms of streamlining, simplification, or ease of use, but in terms of jiving with specific needs this person has as someone with disabilities.
Dark Souls, in many ways, is supremely approachable. In the moment to moment gameplay, you're asked to have a sense of curiosity, to be cautious, to pay attention to details. You do that with a set of controls that actually isn't particularly complicated. You have the ability to significantly customize the experience to suit your gameplay preferences.
Most of all, there's a sense of accomplishment around every corner, with multiple outlets for progression.
Dark Souls is relatively niche, but I strongly suspect that audience is surprisingly diverse - that it's niche but not necessarily specialized. You see all sorts of people, people with a variety of gaming preferences, fall for it. The Argument that it needs an easy mode to have broad appeal falls across some simplistic assumptions, imo.
(Now, I feel conflicted on whether it should have an easy mode. I'm very open to that possibility. I just don't think the idea that this discussion is about whether Dark Souls should remain Sacred holds much water.)
I'm sure someone's already said it but non-Sekiro games have easy mode in the form of summons, where no boss has any AI that can handle 2 or more players, which leaves at least one player completely untargeted and free to kill the boss.
You can just lay on the floor while someone else kills it for you, it can't get any easier than that if someone wants to experience the minimalist narrative without putting in any of the effort.
You can just lay on the floor while someone else kills it for you, it can't get any easier than that if someone wants to experience the minimalist narrative without putting in any of the effort.
This is not actually Player 3, but Player 1, and a subset. An actual Player 3 would be someone who doesn't find normal mode challenging, just as an example.
So what about Player 1s who would switch to Easy even if it would ruin their own experience? I suppose that's a valid argument. It's a bit weak, but I could see it.
Arguing that dumbing down the game would mean players wouldn't need to learn the mechanics, for example, is arguing exactly that. It's not a strawman. It is of course NOT the only argument being put forth in this thread for no difficult modes. Didn't imply that, only speaking to this one particular point.
And concern trolling is an apt phrase for pretending to care about the experience of others when you're actually only caring about your own.
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OP
OP
Developers can do whatever they want, and people can play however they want.
I said I'm glad FROM isn't catering to people who want an easy mode, but I didn't said people who hate the difficulty can't cheat.
As long as the games are designed with well balanced challenge in mind I'm good. People can make their own easy mode if they want.
I think they should have an accessibility option which makes the game easier. The game is intended to be very difficult and it's intended to be centered around overcoming difficult that seems overwhelming to many, that's the point of the game, the design intent, and I appreciate that the singular difficulty seeks to preserve that.
But there are also players with disabilities who cannot complete the actions required by the game within the timing required. Players who, the game is not difficult, but impossible. I'm sure that the developers would agree that these players don't have access to the intended experience.
An accessibility mode, which enabled easier settings (similar to something like Celeste's assist mode stamp) which clearly designates that this experience is outside of the original intended gameplay experience but exists so that some players are able to experience the game at all. If you're playing on this accessibility (assist mode) then you're not experiencing the game in the way that the designers intended (that should be made very clear) but at least you are able to experience the game in entirety, like everyone else.
I think that framing such an option as an accessibility mode would also help players understand that this is not the intended experience (unless you have an accessibility use case), and avoid the pitfall that players start on easy, simply out of habit and then miss out on some of the appreciable game design elements that come with the harder difficulty.
But there are also players with disabilities who cannot complete the actions required by the game within the timing required. Players who, the game is not difficult, but impossible. I'm sure that the developers would agree that these players don't have access to the intended experience.
An accessibility mode, which enabled easier settings (similar to something like Celeste's assist mode stamp) which clearly designates that this experience is outside of the original intended gameplay experience but exists so that some players are able to experience the game at all. If you're playing on this accessibility (assist mode) then you're not experiencing the game in the way that the designers intended (that should be made very clear) but at least you are able to experience the game in entirety, like everyone else.
I think that framing such an option as an accessibility mode would also help players understand that this is not the intended experience (unless you have an accessibility use case), and avoid the pitfall that players start on easy, simply out of habit and then miss out on some of the appreciable game design elements that come with the harder difficulty.
I implied jack shit, all I did was disagreeing with you, which was all it took for you to try putting me in the elitist corner without addressing anything I said.
No easy mode just exists for people with disablities/limitations, and most easy modes don't really help these people, either. The only thing in gaming in the last years that actually was a huge step forward in that regard was Microsoft's controller. Don't play that card now.
Nothing about Miyazaki wanting to create a state of constant tension in his games is nebulous. You wouldn't be questioning whether to get to the next bonfire with your accumulated currency or head back, you wouldn't have the same amount of relief when finally beating a boss you put dozens of tries in. The whole surpressing atmoshere of these games wouldn't be the same on a lower difficulty. Saying this isn't me being elitist or thinking that's the only way to experience these games. It's simply what Miyazaki obviously intended, since he keeps making these games that way. Call him elitist then.
I didn't call accessibility bullshit but your way of trying to frame me in ways you can discredit my arguments without addressing them by putting words in my mouth. Hillariously, you've been doing it again with the exact same sentence this paragraph refers to. You're being disingenuous as fuck, constantly mischaracterizing what I have been saying, and it's not the slightest bit producitive or even amusing to try having a conversation with you.
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