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wondermagenta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,153
Cologne
The thing I've been more concerned about in this regard is artistic vision. If part of your vision is for your game to be excruciatingly difficult with no way to make it beatable for people without the necessary motor/cognitive ability, is that ableist? I'd like to argue FOR artistic freedom, and clearly making a game that can only be completed by very few people has its own appeal. But then I'm reminded of the hundreds of thousands of people who'll never be able to finish a Souls game because they suffer from a physical disability (even with basic accessibility options like customizable controls, etc.) I personally always thought that the Souls games handled this sort of thing in a really clever way design-wise (multiplayer, magic builds, etc.) and I doubt a full-on Easy mode would take away from MY OWN enjoyment at all (even though it's IMO an inelegant solution). But again, I've always considered the lack of such a feature to be part of the vision and I'm becoming increasingly unsure if defending that vision is ethically okay. I would genuinely appreciate feedback from disabled people on this specific subject.
 

Deleted member 50374

alt account
Banned
Dec 4, 2018
2,482
Ninja Gaiden is probably the biggest reason why I think they could definitely introduce an easy mode and not diluite the experience.

Finishing it at hard it's still a feat. And the same for something like Hollow Knight which has a lot of room to cheese and doesn't throw you against walls immediately. Soulsborne are almost sadistic and will punish you for just trying to learn the patterns.

I like the From games really, but at 25 years I realize I can have a lot more fun with something else in the same hours it takes me to learn the ropes. I even find joy in some hobbies and my own job. I could put the same time it takes to finish all those games into making a cheap videogame or something.
 

DonaldKimball

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,413
An easier mode could cut down the time needed to invest in the game.

It's that simple.

An easier mode wouldn't cut down the time needed to learn about the posture system or deflecting. (Unless you aren't talking about a simple "enemies do half damage, your character does double" adjustment)

Why the fuck are you playing a game designed around a very specific mechanic (posture system) if you wanna ignore it and hammer down at enemies with godmode stats?

You know what, I would be down with a mode that forces you to learn the mechanics. Like in fighting games where you are stuck until you manage to land the combo.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,661
The time investment is the point of the game.


It's that simple.

That goes for a lot of games, though.

And that doesn't prevent difficulty settings from existing.

And the developer wants people to actually engage with the game they made
Its that simple

I hope none of you guys are those who complain about easy difficulties and simplifications in videogames.

Pokemon Let's Go is still fresh in my mind.
 

matrix-cat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,284
DMC1 has an absolutely terrible Easy mode that completely ruins the game. A good chunk of the Normal mode enemies don't appear, the game automatically combos for you when you just press buttons, and you can never move up to a higher difficulty after beating it; your save file is permanently locked to Easy. I would never, ever recommend that anyone plays it.

But I'm glad it's there for anyone who wants or needs it, and it has no effect whatsoever on playing the normal difficulty modes. If you play well you'll literally never even know the Easy mode exists. When you start DMC you don't get a difficulty option; the game automatically starts on Normal, and if you die three times in one place it'll ask if you want to drop to Easy mode. Just say 'No', or don't die in the first place, and you won't even know it's there. The idea that an Easy mode in From games is going to have any effect on people who want to play them normally is a load of rubbish.
 

Deleted member 3894

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
112
I agree with OP. I don't like when a game asks me to choose a difficulty setting. I usually don't know which mode is going to be the best for me and in the end most games just modify enemy stats. I prefer a single good balanced mode. Some bosses in Sekiro are difficult but not impossible. If you can't beat a boss, there are also ways to lower the difficulty, just grind for new skills or explore new areas and kill mid-bosses to increase attack and health. I prefer this over a direct easy mode.
 

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,237
Lol. Implementing an easy mode in this game would absolutely be a trivial matter. It is not about resources.

How trivial, and how easy? In Sekiro, to get an easier mode they'd need to change enemy behaviors and remove strict rhythm sequences, which are like half of the endgame combat challenges. And it still probably wouldn't be easy enough for some people (see Mega Man 11).
 
Oct 31, 2017
14,991
Ninja Gaiden is probably the biggest reason why I think they could definitely introduce an easy mode and not diluite the experience.

Finishing it at hard it's still a feat. And the same for something like Hollow Knight which has a lot of room to cheese and doesn't throw you against walls immediately. Soulsborne are almost sadistic and will punish you for just trying to learn the patterns.


Almost?

Quote from Dark Souls 2's opening: "you'll lose all your souls... over and over again..." *cackles*
 

srtrestre

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,967
The annual game accessibility conference took place this month, demonstrating how numerous game developers are pushing for increased accessibility in their games.

Do you think all of the speakers and developers contributing to the push for increased accessibility, were disabled? Do you think they ought to be disabled if they want to help?

Difficulty settings are one of the most commonly valued features for gamers with disabilities, they're widely considered a basic accessibility feature within the industry.

http://gameaccessibilityguidelines.com/basic/
Sign me up for Team Accessibility Options In Games. They've never taken anything away from my sense of achievement that I can remember, and other people taking advantage of them has never detracted from my own satisfaction with a game.
 

Nameless

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,347
It would be trivial for the developer to include an easy difficulty level and the option would not deny anybody anything.

Would it though? Because it sounds like what kind of Easy Mode people want -- and the kind Miyazaki would no doubt attempt to deliver -- is one that offers a commensurate level of challenge & accomplishment without bastardizing the core themes(tension, dread, mystery, discovery etc..) on which his games(and worlds) are built. This would be a far more complicated endeavor than simply turning down a few enemy HP & damage sliders.

Not only is it a matter of budget and resources, but now you have tons of people forming judgments based off a version of the game that potentially sacrifices key elements of the experience.
 

Sandersson

Banned
Feb 5, 2018
2,535
I mean that's cool but you'd probably do better developing a GaaS loot game than a single-player precision action game.
I have no interest in GAAS games (except Siege?) Besides how does an easy mode require a GAAS game? You can already summon NPCs/Players which is an ez mode compared to an offline run.

I dont get this weird gatekeeping around the souls games at all (fan since demons souls btw.)
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
OP, I have nothing against you so don't take it the wrong way but these threads often lack a bit of self-awareness :

- why do you feel accomplished?
- why is it so important to you?
- why do you feel the need to force it on others?
- why do you feel the need for others to validate this "accomplishment"?

I have a better question:

- is psychoanalysis your day job or just a hobby?
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
Ok but if someone wants to play on easy mode, even if it takes away from the "experience", then I'm in the camp that says go for it.

And I'll repeat myself, that would take nothing away from your experience with the game. You can still play exactly the way you want.

Also, how does lowering the health of every enemy by half change the story or level design? Difficulty levels on other games don't change these things.
Why do you think I hold the belief it would take away from my experience? Where did I say that?

It's change leveldesign because finding bonfires or shortcuts would be less rewarding if you could just plow through enemies. Especially shortcuts would be simply pointless. Yes, most games aren't designed like that, but difficulty in these games isn't just a healthbar/damage slider like in Uncharted for example. And again, this isn't about me gatekeeping, some of my favourite games are Okami and Windwaker, games so easy most people could probably play them in their sleep.
Gatekeeping and elitism in the same post, amazing.

Love how your lack of self awareness of your own conduct.

I'll give you a hint. Seeing people as below your level required to "earn your friendliness" is elitism. Your denigration of others based on how bothered you can be is indicative of how you act as a person and is blinding obvious in this thread.

Genuinely helpful and friendly people do not need to pick and choose when to be so, nor advertise that fact.

And before you say it, I'm an unrepentant Arsehole, but I don't claim to be one thing before deciding to treat others counter to my stayed philosophy because they don't meet certain criteria.

It ties into this also because your so called helpfulness doesn't extend to supporting those whose accessibility requirements could be met with granular options to help, but because it doesn't follow your ideal, aren't worth helping.
Nice buzzwords, and even armchair analysis for good measure. You seem confused over why I talked to the person like that, even after I elaborated why. I'm pretty sure that confusion is wanted so you can fling shit at me. Again, that poster was making an ignorant claim that bordered on lazy dev rethoric and was dismissive of the entire discussion that went on for the last 11 pages.

I don't call people assholes. I have no clue what criteria you've made up in your mind that I supposedly use, but my criteria is simply that that post was kind of insulting. To the devs and this discussion that is going on.

If only you would address any of the arguments I made for why the games are like they are instead of pinning some motivation on me that is supposedly dismissive towards a subset of people.

Again, I was not making that comment towards them because they hold a different opinion regarding the topic, but the actual contents of the post. I know that goes against the picture that you want to try to paint of me so desperately, sorry.
 
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White Glint

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,617
Anyone who's able to hold a controller while being cognizant of enemy locations and your health and stamina meters can beat dark souls.

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from taking on encounters one at a time, using a greatshield and attacking when an opening the size of Niagara falls presents itself.

But no, gamers with too much pride in their attack button mashing skills must take to the internet and complain how the handicapped can't play dark souls because the game is just too fuckin' bucko nuts. Stop.
 

BeaconofTruth

Member
Dec 30, 2017
3,417
Empathy because a video game is too hard for you? Is this a parody post?
Because of a physical limitation bro,
Would it though? Because it sounds like what kind of Easy Mode people want -- and the kind Miyazaki would no doubt attempt to deliver -- is one that offers a commensurate level if challenge & accomplishment without bastardizing the core themes(tension, dread, mystery, discovery etc..) on which his games(and worlds) are built. This would be a far more complicated endeavor than simply turning down a few enemy HP & damage sliders.

Not only is it a matter of budget and resources, but now you have tons of people forming judgments based off a version of the game that potentially sacrifices key elements of the experience.
the arm chair deving in this thread with "it would be so easy" and "lol it's just numbers" is definitely a bit ridiculous.
 

Deleted member 50374

alt account
Banned
Dec 4, 2018
2,482
How trivial, and how easy? In Sekiro, to get an easier mode they'd need to change enemy behaviors and remove strict rhythm sequences, which are like half of the endgame combat challenges. And it still probably wouldn't be easy enough for some people (see Mega Man 11).
They can add in more visual/audio cues and a bigger window for parries and such, have enemies react slower or do patterns more predictably, and even, like, have the main character (in Sekiro, it's Sekiro, anyway) comment about the situation and places so that the user knows there's something up.

(Of course only in easy mode.)

Some of the best franchises ever went down in the shitter cause they chased the almighty dollar instead of sticking with a vision.

Dark Souls is already quite mainstream as it is, introducing the R rated version it's not going to make it more commercial
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
Claims to not be elitist.

"Worth my friendliness"

This community is not convincing me that they aren't being gatekeepers, who probably would want every game they like to have harder difficulty modes, without caring for easier ones.
Do you believe they were not worthy of my friendlyness because of the opinion they hold regarding the topic or because they were super dismissive, reductive and ignorant about it?

That had absolutely nothing to do with gatekeeping. Some of my favourite games are Okami and Windwaker. Some of the easiest games I ever played. And I didn't want hard modes for them.

You guys really love to throw these terms around, don't you. No matter if they actually apply or not.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,467
I have yet to see someone provide me with a reason dark souls is impossible to beat by someone with a disability in a way another accepted game isn't.

I'm so tired of theoreticals by people who are not even disabled. We literally just had a guy with cerebral palsy say he appreciates the difficulty even if progress is slower for him.

What are you even talking about? Most games don't feature a single difficulty option (which in itself, is very hard).

A Dark Souls game could be impossible to beat for any myriad of reasons. There's no custom button remapping on console, so you can't use your custom controllers and setups. The font sizes are often fairly small, so anyone with a visual difficulty might have a hard time reading certain details.

But it's not about, can someone beat it if they bash their head against it long enough. If we used an application to throw a random assortment of inputs at the controller, it would eventually beat the game but that's not the point.

The point is that these people should be able to have access to the same experiences you do, or at least as closely as possible. They shouldn't have to experience 10 fold the difficulty that you do in order to experience the same thing in the game.

I spoke to someone recently, he's a disabled gamer who plays fighting games, and plays at a world-class level with his character. He talked to me about how he often won't complete a game if it doesn't provide options to accomodate him, because he feels he shouldn't have to struggle to complete basic actions in the game that everyone else can do normally.

He's right, and your ignorance and insensitivity to the difficulty that players like him experience when trying to access the same experiences that you all take for granted is honestly just upsetting. I thought ERA was generally considered pretty progressive and inclusive? Why are we seeing post after post with players justifying the gatekeeping of this experiences away from certain players?
 

TreeMePls

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,258
How so? Would you not want you favourite franchise to sell?
Im sure Dead Space fans and Dead Rising fans are so happy that theyre favorite franchises are selling millions every installment. Wait. You're telling me that they're dead? And they died specifically after the installment that decided to chase everyone as a potential customer? Hm. I wonder how that happened
 

Lunaray

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,731
Again, this is about one single game, not all video games. And yes, I think it is perfectly fine for a single developer to decide to only have one single difficulty in his/her game. Do you think a developer should not have the right to only have one difficulty?

And part of the reason some people want this is because they know themselves, and they know that when things get hard they will take the easy way out if it is available; just like some folks have to throw out all sugary snacks from their house or not live next door to a pub. Idk what kind of Vulcan Monks you hang out with, but please understand we arent all as mentally ironclad as you and your friends.

I'm not arguing that From games should have more difficulty levels. That's a completely separate argument. In fact, I never even said it was bad for a developer to decide to only have one single difficulty in his/her game. In fact, there are perfectly justifiable reasons for not having more difficulty levels in a video game, including those having to do with increased production costs, etc. What I take issue with is with people advocating for fewer options for bad reasons.

Also, quit it with the Vulcan Monk shit. I'm not out here calling you names.
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
What are you even talking about? Most games don't feature a single difficulty option (which in itself, is very hard).

A Dark Souls game could be impossible to beat for any myriad of reasons. There's no custom button remapping on console, so you can't use your custom controllers and setups. The font sizes are often fairly small, so anyone with a visual difficulty might have a hard time reading certain details.

But it's not about, can someone beat it if they bash their head against it long enough. If we used an application to throw a random assortment of inputs at the controller, it would eventually beat the game but that's not the point.

The point is that these people should be able to have access to the same experiences you do, or at least as closely as possible. They shouldn't have to experience 10 fold the difficulty that you do in order to experience the same thing in the game.

I spoke to someone recently, he's a disabled gamer who plays fighting games, and plays at a world-class level with his character. He talked to me about how he often won't complete a game if it doesn't provide options to accomodate him, because he feels he shouldn't have to struggle to complete basic actions in the game that everyone else can do normally.

He's right, and your ignorance and insensitivity to the difficulty that players like him experience when trying to access the same experiences that you all take for granted is honestly just upsetting. I thought ERA was generally considered pretty progressive and inclusive? Why are we seeing post after post with players justifying the gatekeeping of this experiences away from certain players?
You put this in such an amazing way. Bravo.
 

PancakeFlip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,918
I think a good challenge is one thing, making things being needlessly frustrating and annoying is another. I'm really enjoying Sekiro a good deal, only the final boss fight is left. But some stuff I could do without. I am absolutely over Miyazaki's post-death penalty bullshit. And some other shit in this game like making spirit emblems a finite consumable items just makes no sense when you have so many even less important items that regenerate when you rest. Or this fucking guy's insistence on putting boss fights in tight quarters when you know your camera is absolute garbage and prone to fucking off, along with your lock-on. Then there's being forced to watching a loading screen plus doing the trek all the way back to a boss fight every time you die (without any enemies in the way mind you) plus having to skip the same damn cut-scene every damn time.

This is where I'm at honestly, everything you mentioned is EXACTLY what gets me pissed. I feel annoyed not challenged, then when I get to the boss I'm pissed and not enthusiastic.
 

Sandersson

Banned
Feb 5, 2018
2,535
Out of all the profoundly stupid shit being thrown around in this thread, "if FROM hired me I would make their games sell much better!" has to take the cake. Congratulations, sir; wear that post like a badge of honor because you've certainly earned it.
I think your reading comprehension requires work. :/ No other fandom gets this triggered from a difficulty slider.
 

Tophat Jones

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,946
Remember when Activision was going to meddle with From's process and influence their game too much? Good times.

We can all agree that we're glad Activision didn't force From to do something they didn't want to do, right?
 

Batatina

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,263
Edinburgh, UK
Before Sekiro I didn't believe an Easy mode was needed, because summoning did that in a nicer way. It felt like a feature, it was fun and helped you at the same time.

Without the online features I think an easy mode is sorely needed. Or at least more friendly NPCs that help you out. Something. The boss battles are just painful, and when I beat them I don't feel accomplishment - just relief. I won't replay Sekiro whenever (or if) I manage to finish it, because I can't imagine going through that pain again, despite other things I enjoy in the game.
 

Sandersson

Banned
Feb 5, 2018
2,535
Im sure Dead Space fans and Dead Rising fans are so happy that theyre favorite franchises are selling millions every installment. Wait. You're telling me that they're dead? And they died specifically after the installment that decided to chase everyone as a potential customer? Hm. I wonder how that happened
I mean.. you are talking about an easy mode.. If demons souls made you choose from easy mode to normal mode, would it really make the game bad? Btw summoning is already an easy mode.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
The annual game accessibility conference took place this month, demonstrating how numerous game developers are pushing for increased accessibility in their games.

Do you think all of the speakers and developers contributing to the push for increased accessibility, were disabled? Do you think they ought to be disabled if they want to help?

Difficulty settings are one of the most commonly valued features for gamers with disabilities, they're widely considered a basic accessibility feature within the industry.

http://gameaccessibilityguidelines.com/basic/

This is a good and Noble thing. It's good to hear all the support disabilities accommodation is getting recently.

It's just that with dark souls specifically things start sounding suspect. Because they will ignore people who have beat these games with disabilities, heck even using voice commands. Go look up Or and Smough with voice commands. Dark Souls can be beaten with bongo drumbs. So when I see someone say something about reaction times, I know they are just extremely ignorant. Hell there's a bizarre select few who have even beaten dark souls relying on their reflexes and don't even realize that you don't need that.

My point is that if you say you care about difficulty purely due to how it relates to disabilities, but then ignore when people address the fact that people with disabilities can play and beat Dark Souls, you can understand why instantly that makes me call into question such a person's motive.
 

Eriol

Member
Oct 27, 2017
817
Santiago, Chile
So what im getting is because people cant have self control and not using the dififculty option, the option dont need be put on the game, right?

Thats totally gatekeeping.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,467
This is a good and Noble thing. It's good to hear all the support disabilities accommodation is getting recently.

It's just that with dark souls specifically things start sounding suspect. Because they will ignore people who have beat these games with disabilities, heck even using voice commands. Go look up Or and Smough with voice commands. Dark Souls can be beaten with bongo drumbs. So when I see someone say something about reaction times, I know they are just extremely ignorant. Hell there's a bizarre select few who have even beaten dark souls relying on their reflexes and don't even realize that you don't need that.

My point is that if you say you care about difficulty purely due to how it relates to disabilities, but then ignore when people address the fact that people with disabilities can play and beat Dark Souls, you can understand why instantly that makes me call into question such a person's motive.

I'm going to literally copy and paste my reply from earlier:

It's not about, can someone beat it if they bash their head against it long enough. If we used an application to throw a random assortment of inputs at the controller, it would eventually beat the game but that's not the point.

The point is that these people should be able to have access to the same experiences you do, or at least as closely as possible. They shouldn't have to experience 10 fold the difficulty that you do in order to experience the same thing in the game.

I spoke to someone recently, he's a disabled gamer who plays fighting games, and plays at a world-class level with his character. He talked to me about how he often won't complete a game if it doesn't provide options to accomodate him, because he feels he shouldn't have to struggle to complete basic actions in the game that everyone else can do normally.

He's right, and your ignorance and insensitivity to the difficulty that players like him experience when trying to access the same experiences that you all take for granted is honestly just upsetting. I thought ERA was generally considered pretty progressive and inclusive? Why are we seeing post after post with players justifying the gatekeeping of this experiences away from certain players?
 

tryagainlater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,250
And the game design is based around overcoming the difficulty they present throughout the series. Some games are actually meant to be challenging. So yes, the experience they set out to craft would be diluted/less than with an easier difficulty added.
I don't inherently disagree with what you're saying. The difficulty is a creative choice that additive to the experience but a diluted experience has value even if it wasn't the intended experience. When books are written, they're very much written from the perspective of the original author's language and world views. People who share the language are undoubtedly experiencing the book in its intended form so we shouldn't translate it into other languages because that will only dilute the experience. I'm sure if I went and learned Ancient Greek and read The Iliad, I would absolutely have a far richer experience with story than the English translations I've read but I'm really glad people did translate it because it's my favourite books. And hell, those classical stories often have commentaries and footnotes to help explain certain things that aren't clear to a modern reader. And you can even get audio books for people with dyslexia or just don't have time to read. Hell, what if Miyazaki only thought the game could be enjoyed in Japanese (which he kinda does with the default audio for Sekiro) and didn't think it should be translated? You think item descriptions are vague now, try reading it a foreign language, git gud, learn Japanese.

Ok, that last point was intentionally flippant and I know people are going to balk at comparing translation and localization to giving a game an easy mode but the comparison is something to consider. The interactivity of video games is unique to its medium so seeing accessibility options in gameplay as analogous to translating a book is not ridiculous in my eyes. People bring up the argument of not everything has to cater to everyone's taste, and sure, that's fine. Bloodborne is a gross game with Lovecraftian elements that plenty of people have no interest in. Should it water down those elements to people who were never going to have any interest in that genre of story. No, it shouldn't, those people weren't going to ever like it. But as additive as the difficulty certainly is, I don't see it as a bad thing to make it easier for people who have a ton of interest in the type of story and world that Bloodborne is presenting when what is stopping them is their ability to interact with the medium. Perhaps, Let's Plays serve the function for those people similar to the audio book example I mentioned earlier.

Look, I don't think any developer should be forced to put in accessibility options if they just don't want to but I do think as many accessibility options as humanly possible should be encouraged even if people using them may get a lesser experience.
 
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