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Madjoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,230
- why are WinStore games in Europe at least €10-€20 more expensive than similar (or even the same) games in EVERY other digital game store on PC?
- why are the best discounts for WinStore games held behind the Xbox Live Gold paywall? And why are these discounts on par with console instead of other digital game stores on PC?

There is simple answer to this, parity. Can't give PC gamers better deal, since you're forced to take console copy with your PC copy, even if you never intend to use it.
And since console games have higher MSRP, XPA has to bring it to PC too.
And they wouldn't be able to justify console users paying for discounts, if PC get them free for same reason.

It's not problem in US, Microsoft's biggest market because PC and X1 games have same MSRP.
For EU it's simply awful deal, digital copy on WinStore cost almost the same as Physical PC (Steam key) and X1 Physical combined on release day. (Like RE7, which was release Steam and Winstore XPA the same day)

PC only games don't have this problem, so maybe Microsoft should make buying X1 version optional.
 

Akai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,045
Let me quote myself here from my post above:

But I guess it's all about this:

On Windows Central, achievements are also mentioned as the reason why people want more PC games in the Windows Store. It seems plenty of people are willing to sacrifice the open nature of PC gaming for a higher gamerscore. That makes me sad to be honest :(

I agree with you to 100%. The way it works now is really not ideal and I'm honestly baffled with many of their decisions. I just hope that things change for the better and a modding platform sounds like a pretty good step in the right direction, even if it will most likely have restrictions to "protect our userbase".

Btw. those are some great questions in your other post. I'd ask them the same thing and I'd add a "Why can't you pay with PayPal globally?" question. Nintendo allows it for their Switch, which is very awesome. Screw buying games for 70€ in the German Microsoft Store.
 
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SuikerBrood

SuikerBrood

Member
Jan 21, 2018
15,490
Microsoft should think about giving Play Anywhere the price-parity with Xbox titles it has now, but giving pc-only people the option to buy a reasonably priced version without play anywhere.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
There is simple answer to this, parity. Can't give PC gamers better deal, since you're forced to take console copy with your PC copy, even if you never intend to use it.
And since console games have higher MSRP, XPA has to bring it to PC too.
And they wouldn't be able to justify console users paying for discounts, if PC get them free for same reason.

It's not problem in US, Microsoft's biggest market because PC and X1 games have same MSRP.
For EU it's simply awful deal, digital copy on WinStore cost almost the same as Physical PC (Steam key) and X1 Physical combined on release day. (Like RE7, which was release Steam and Winstore XPA the same day)

PC only games don't have this problem, so maybe Microsoft should make buying X1 version optional.
This is exactly what they're doing with online though. I've been waiting for free online on Xbox ever since MS started merging the platforms together, right now it's an elephant in the room that you can play online for free on PC but have to pay for it on console when you buy a Play Anywhere license. Can't keep that oddity forever.
 
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SuikerBrood

SuikerBrood

Member
Jan 21, 2018
15,490
This is exactly what they're doing with online though. I've been waiting for free online on Xbox ever since MS started merging the platforms together, right now it's an elephant in the room that you can play online for free on PC but have to pay for it on console when you buy a Play Anywhere license. Can't keep that oddity forever.

You think anyone would have played Sea of Thieves if you had to pay for online? No way.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
You think anyone would have played Sea of Thieves if you had to pay for online? No way.
I haven't played the game but a quick google gave me this info at support.xbox.com, but that's not true then?
  • Do I need to be online or connected to the Internet to play Sea of Thieves?
    Sea of Thieves can only be played while online – if you're playing on Xbox One then you will need an Xbox Live Gold subscription to play all modes of the game. You will not be able to play the game while offline.

    If you're playing on Windows 10 then you will not need an Xbox Live Gold subscription to play online.
 
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SuikerBrood

SuikerBrood

Member
Jan 21, 2018
15,490
I haven't played the game but a quick google gave me this info at support.xbox.com, but that's not true then?
  • Do I need to be online or connected to the Internet to play Sea of Thieves?
    Sea of Thieves can only be played while online – if you're playing on Xbox One then you will need an Xbox Live Gold subscription to play all modes of the game. You will not be able to play the game while offline.

    If you're playing on Windows 10 then you will not need an Xbox Live Gold subscription to play online.

That's true on Xbox. Was reacting on ''Can't keep that oddity forever''
Pc gamers will never pay for online gaming. So by removing the oddity MS should remove the paywall for online on the Xbox.
 

Deleted member 1777

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
637
This is exactly what they're doing with online though. I've been waiting for free online on Xbox ever since MS started merging the platforms together, right now it's an elephant in the room that you can play online for free on PC but have to pay for it on console when you buy a Play Anywhere license. Can't keep that oddity forever.

I wouldn't say it's an elephant in the room at all tbh. The simple fact is, PC players told MS to fuck right off when they tried to charge for online play whilst xbox players went all in. Plus I'm suspecting most xbox players just don't give a shit regardless and don't even think about MS games being on PC, forum folk are a vocal minority with these concerns.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
That's true on Xbox. Was reacting on ''Can't keep that oddity forever''
Pc gamers will never pay for online gaming. So by removing the oddity MS should remove the paywall for online on the Xbox.
Ah yeah I know, like I said I've been waiting for free online on Xbox for quite some time now, I don't understand why there isn't more complaints about the current situation.
 

Madjoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,230
This is exactly what they're doing with online though. I've been waiting for free online on Xbox ever since MS started merging the platforms together, right now it's an elephant in the room that you can play online for free on PC but have to pay for it on console when you buy a Play Anywhere license. Can't keep that oddity forever.

It's much different compared to just purchasing on PC.
Just requiring game capable PC for free online is huge barrier. Most don't have, don't want or can't afford.
And people on console are still 'happily' (more or less) paying online fees. It's millions of free money per month.

Meanwhile just about any PC would be capable of buying from Windows Store, if it was cheaper, a lot would do it.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
It's much different compared to just purchasing on PC.
Just requiring game capable PC for free online is huge barrier. Most don't have, don't want or can't afford.
And people on console are still 'happily' (more or less) paying online fees. It's millions of free money per month.

Meanwhile just about any PC would be capable of buying from Windows Store, if it was cheaper, a lot would do it.
But still, why aren't more complaining? Someone can go online on Forza Horizon 3 right now without paying a single cent while others has to pay $49 a year (or whatever the current subscription price is) for the same experience (framerate differences excluded).
Shouldn't that piss you off?

I think they should add something else to the subscription to make the service less about online since you get online for free elsewhere on the same games. The current situation is weird.
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
I'll take UWP over Win32 any day purely because window management is standardized and easy, and I don't really care about mods ... or Steam.

Outweigh the positives for you maybe. The inability to see beyond your own selfish needs is far more childish.

lol?

Really?? Windows 10 S Mode is doing fine
If that was true it would still be its own distro, not a toggle for regular windows.

People should be more concerned about Valve in the future, everything that is moving away from their monopoly

'People' should be more concerned by Valves """"monopoly"""" by supporting.... the owner of gaming on Windows actual monopoly?

That's the thing you're getting completely wrong here. UWP doesn't have to be completely Microsoft controlled, it's not designed to be

You literally cannot make a UWA without using MS software and agreeing to Ms T&Cs.
You can make a win32 application entirely using FLOSS software. You don't even need to be running Windows to create a Win32 .exe.
 

caff!!!

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,030
But still, why aren't more complaining? Someone can go online on Forza Horizon 3 right now without paying a single cent while others has to pay $49 a year (or whatever the current subscription price is) for the same experience (framerate differences excluded).
Shouldn't that piss you off?

I think they should add something else to the subscription to make the service less about online since you get online for free elsewhere on the same games. The current situation is weird.
Microsoft tried to get gamers to pay for online gaming again with GFWL and that FPS based of shadowrun. It failed, and anyone was allowed to play MP for free on GFWL shortly afterwards.
 

BlacJack

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,021
Why? What's the problem with UWP?

I understand the problem with the Microsoft Store, but UWP? Meh. Only downside is that they are unavailable to Windows 7/8 users.

UWP was a big part of why people hated MS's Window store push on Win 10.... It's extremelely limiting and just another form of MS attempting to control and proprietize something that is typically open.

The tweets from this guy sound so cringe and forced, it's painful. His "benefits" and reasons for being excited for this scream shill lol. But hey, some people just like things because of who makes them, for some reason, regardless of actual benefits for the customer.
 

Jez

Windows Central
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
49
You literally cannot make a UWA without using MS software and agreeing to Ms T&Cs.
You can make a win32 application entirely using FLOSS software. You don't even need to be running Windows to create a Win32 .exe.

What's your point? if Win32 with floss software is so great and awesome it'll continue to thrive unabated by UWP. Are you arguing that Microsoft shouldn't be allowed to come up with a modernized method that adheres to modern security conventions and improves accessibility? Too much emotion here.
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
What's your point? if Win32 with floss software is so great and awesome it'll continue to thrive unabated by UWP. Are you arguing that Microsoft shouldn't be allowed to come up with a modernized method that adheres to modern security conventions and improves accessibility? Too much emotion here.

You claimed that UWA isn't something completely controlled by MS and wasn't designed to be, when it clearly is.
If MS really wanted to create a new application type as a replacement for W32, they would have consulted with stakeholders as to what such a replacement should be, what featuresets it has, and would have had some sort of aligned interest steering group, with the protocols and specifications available to all so that nobody was 'in control' of it going forward.

What they actually did was go ahead and make what they wanted to make, in a format only available to them, and (initially) only available via their own storefront, that was inferior to what was already available.

Thats not how you create a standard people get behind.
 

Jez

Windows Central
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
49
- will their modding platform allow mods and free user-created content for games without official/curated mod support?
- why aren't game devs allowed to sell keys for WinStore games on their own website or in competing 3rd party keystores?
- why are WinStore games in Europe at least €10-€20 more expensive than similar (or even the same) games in EVERY other digital game store on PC?
- why are the best discounts for WinStore games held behind the Xbox Live Gold paywall? And why are these discounts on par with console instead of other digital game stores on PC?
- The current game bar is nothing more than a portal to MS' own services. Can we expect a more open approach that allows competing services as well?

I can answer some of these myself, but I'll get their responses too.

- answer is yes, and actually, you won't even need to use their modding platform once uwp has matured, people will be able to fuck around with DRM-free uwp apps the same way they're able to today on win32, eventually. uwp programs can be packaged in executables to run on win10 pcs with local auth only, OR they can be set up with DRM by the provider. whether it's the microsoft store, adobe cloud, etc.
- i'll ask that one.
- ill need some examples here. frostpunk for example is the same price on win store as it is on steam. the reason some games are higher price could be due to Xbox Play Anywhere, matching the console price. and why are console games higher price in europe? ive spoken to microsoft about this, and they've said it's political, at least in the UK, where they are asked not to undercut physical retail. retail still plays an important part in hardware distribution. it creates a problem, because, for example, devs have to choose whether to join XPA at a higher price point to match console, or go PC-only, to match Steam. Speaking to Paradox last year, they told me they chose to keep Cities Skylines off Xbox Play Anywhere cus they wanted to keep the price matched up with Steam. And speaking to people from the Windows Store team, this is an area Microsoft is looking to improve for devs and publishers. nobody has really tried anything like Xbox Play Anywhere before, so there are some kinks to improve and work out.
- again, this is more a systemic issue rather than a policy. i expect with phil spencer promoted to the senior leadership table @ Microsoft and Terry Myerson ousted completely, pc gamers will get a higher priority.
- also expect this too, game bar is still relatively new. the windows 10 april 2018 update split it off from the OS as well, turned it into an app, so that it could be updated more frequently. I imagine Twitch integration is on the horizon, especially cus Microsoft is all ilybby<3 with Amazon lately. Twitch is working on a UWP app, and I expect some form of shell integration is on the cards as a result. I'll get an official word from them for you.

seriously keep the questions coming, i will pose them all to Microsoft when I get the chance. The goal IS to make UWP open, and yeah, Microsoft has a lot of trust to earn in this area, and the shitty state of the Windows Store has not helped.

you might think UWP is some kinda "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kinda deal, but the idea is to liberate devs from the win32 legacy/hardware requirements. if microsoft does nothing to compete in this area, you're looking at far less open companies becoming dominant in pc gaming, or relying on floss forever -- which might be fine. if floss is fine, then everyone can just ignore UWP in the same way you might ignore how other operating systems (mobile or otherwise) impact win32. it'll be this separate thing that won't matter and won't impact steam.
 

Jez

Windows Central
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
49
You claimed that UWA isn't something completely controlled by MS and wasn't designed to be, when it clearly is.
If MS really wanted to create a new application type as a replacement for W32, they would have consulted with stakeholders as to what such a replacement should be, what featuresets it has, and would have had some sort of aligned interest steering group, with the protocols and specifications available to all so that nobody was 'in control' of it going forward.

What they actually did was go ahead and make what they wanted to make, in a format only available to them, and (initially) only available via their own storefront, that was inferior to what was already available.

Thats not how you create a standard people get behind.

just because you have to use UWP's tools today, and just because MS developed UWP using its own features and services first (why the hell wouldn't they test it on their own stuff first?), doesn't invalidate that the end goal is for UWP to be open. i recommend watching kevin gallo's UWP talks on MSDN.

if you're genuinely interested in what the intentions are here and not just angry at Microsoft for rocking the boat, give me your questions and I will get them answered when I interview MS leadership next.
 

MCD

Honest Work
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,799
Jez

Can you ask MS to make downloading/managing games as good as Xbox One? I want to go to the PC store, buy a game and then manage my downloads/games in the Xbox app similar to my games and apps on Xbox One.

I hate the Windows PC because it's unpredictable and unreliable when it comes to managing this simple task. I hate it. I mean, we still can't copy our games. Ridiculous.

And one more question and this is a legit concern: I supported various MS stuff like Windows Phone and Groove. I fear supprting yet another failure here that they will soon abandon like everything MS.
 
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SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,682
USA USA USA
I mean even if I believed uwp was the future or beneficial in some way, I'd still be incredibly hesitant to dive into its ecosystem.

Even just citing gfwl should make anyone weary of joining it. They want to have all the control at all times instead of building something people would want to be part of with benefits for everyone. And their history shows that instead of actually improving it they'll just phase it out in a couple years and it will be remembered as that one annoying thing they did a couple years ago but now this new thing is totally different and great. And it's not like it's currently catching the world on fire.

*Cod on uwp population.jpg*
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
Microsoft tried to get gamers to pay for online gaming again with GFWL and that FPS based of shadowrun. It failed, and anyone was allowed to play MP for free on GFWL shortly afterwards.
So what need to fix the Xbox situation is a failure? I refuse to believe it's too late to get free online gaming on console again, especially now when the exakt same games are free on a different platform. Isn't UWP games even using the same versions on all platforms so the server cost excuse can't be valid anymore? Same cost on all platforms but only behind a paywall on one version.
 

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,577
Texas
So it's selfish to want to be able to modify games, but it's not selfish to want the better-in-every-way-for-the-end-user wrapper to go away because it's easier to manage your game window on a multi monitor setup?

Fucking embarrasing. I see no tangible benefits as an end user that outweigh the negatives. I haven't seen one list from either Jez or TehPotentialz that elucidates those benefits, other than condescending tripe about how gamers are either entitled or ignorant to those benefits.

If we are ignorant to the benefits, why don't you fucking list them in an easy to understand way to us luddites.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
So it's selfish to want to be able to modify games, but it's not selfish to want the better-in-every-way-for-the-end-user wrapper to go away because it's easier to manage your game window on a multi monitor setup?

Fucking embarrasing. I see no tangible benefits as an end user that outweigh the negatives. I haven't seen one list from either Jez or TehPotentialz that elucidates those benefits, other than condescending tripe about how gamers are either entitled or ignorant to those benefits.

If we are ignorant to the benefits, why don't you fucking list them in an easy to understand way to us luddites.
I don't see a point in UWP games either....
...except when it's a Play Anywhere title where it's one of the most awesome things that has happened in years!
* Buying Forza Horizon 3 on Xbox, 30fps, ugh.
* Upgrading to Windows 10, noticing that FH3 is available for download, installing... Huh? 60+fps! And triple screen capable!! = Awesome !!! Thank you MS!!!
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
just because you have to use UWP's tools today, and just because MS developed UWP using its own features and services first (why the hell wouldn't they test it on their own stuff first?), doesn't invalidate that the end goal is for UWP to be open. i recommend watching kevin gallo's UWP talks on MSDN.

if you're genuinely interested in what the intentions are here and not just angry at Microsoft for rocking the boat, give me your questions and I will get them answered when I interview MS leadership next.

You keep trying to misrepresent me as "angry" at MS or as a "MS hater" when I'm just saying that what they are offering is not something most people want.

They were the ones that launched a storefront to the public that is only capable of using UWA software.
They are the ones steering the development of UWA with the features they want to prioritise being prioritised.

If their goal is to make UWA something that developers want to use with a comparable featureset to W32, great.
But people don't buy into products based on corporate aspirations. Well, most people. Obviously some people chug that kool-aid pretty hard and end up talking about how great something could be, rather than how shitty something actually is.

e:
Lets be real clear here: the goal of UWA wasn't to 'save windows'.
Windows is doing fine, there is no developer exodus away from windows.

The goal of UWA was to make it easier to leverage near universal developer support for Windows to try and get developer support for less popular platforms like Phone and Xbox.
Phone is dead.
Xbox is a distant second in a two horse race.

Developers are still developing for Win32 like always.

The raison d'etre for UWA doesn't exist anymore.
Yet I'm supposed to believe its the inevitable future?
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,682
USA USA USA
So it's selfish to want to be able to modify games, but it's not selfish to want the better-in-every-way-for-the-end-user wrapper to go away because it's easier to manage your game window on a multi monitor setup?

Fucking embarrasing. I see no tangible benefits as an end user that outweigh the negatives. I haven't seen one list from either Jez or TehPotentialz that elucidates those benefits, other than condescending tripe about how gamers are either entitled or ignorant to those benefits.

If we are ignorant to the benefits, why don't you fucking list them in an easy to understand way to us luddites.
If you need to ask for them then you clearly do not understand what UWP is or why it even exists. Go do some reading about what UWP actually is and you'll quickly see the benefits it provides.
easy
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
I can answer some of these myself, but I'll get their responses too.

Thanks for your response Jez!

once uwp has matured, people will be able to fuck around with DRM-free uwp apps the same way they're able to today on win32

I'm curious: how do you know this? And if this is true, why on earth hasn't Microsoft provided this option from the beginning? It seems unlikely this is because UWP isn't mature yet, because Microsoft actually had to add new features to protect UWP files and to store them in an encrypted container.

This being said: if people will be able to fuck around with DRM-free uwp apps the same way they're able to today on win32, one of the most significant reasons for me (and probably many other PC gamers) to boycott the Windows Store for PC gaming would be gone. This would also mean that Steam and other stores can support UWP games without losing features or options.

- ill need some examples here.

Resident Evil 7 was €69.99 in the Windows Store at release, while costing only €49.99 on Steam. In fact all AAA games are €69.99 in the WinStore, while EVERY other store on PC charges between €49.99 - €59.99.

theason some games are higher price could be due to Xbox Play Anywhere, matching the console price.

That's probably the reason. But Microsoft should have seen this. Why not making play anywhere optional like other Era members already suggested? By forcing PA and a higher pricetag anyway, it feels like Microsoft is putting their own interests over their costumers. Most PC gamers do NOT have an Xbox, especially in Europe.

and why are console games higher price in europe? ive spoken to microsoft about this, and they've said it's political, at least in the UK, where they are asked not to undercut physical retail. retail still plays an important part in hardware distribution.

I've heard this as well. Funny thing is that most retailers are selling console games at €59.99 or less, while you pay €69.99 for the digital version. This is true for PS4 games as well by the way.

it creates a problem, because, for example, devs have to choose whether to join XPA at a higher price point to match console, or go PC-only, to match Steam. Speaking to Paradox last year, they told me they chose to keep Cities Skylines off Xbox Play Anywhere cus they wanted to keep the price matched up with Steam.

I wasn't aware of this, thanks for sharing this. So it seems that the price difference hurts the PA initiative as well. Let's hope Microsoft finds a quick solution for this. Another solution than charging €70 on Steam as well please :)

seriously keep the questions coming, i will pose them all to Microsoft when I get the chance.

I really appreciate this, thanks a million! :D

The goal IS to make UWP open, and yeah, Microsoft has a lot of trust to earn in this area, and the shitty state of the Windows Store has not helped.

I'm not really worried about the shitty state of the windows store, because I'm pretty sure Microsoft will fix it sooner or later. But the other issues I'm having with the store (file access, high prices, integration of competing services/ecosystems and game keys in 3rd party stores) seem to exist "by design". If Microsoft can fix these issues, I'll be happy to use their store and Xbox Live ecosystem for PC gaming, despite the shitty store and annoying Xbox App. :)
 

caff!!!

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,030
So what need to fix the Xbox situation is a failure? I refuse to believe it's too late to get free online gaming on console again, especially now when the exakt same games are free on a different platform. Isn't UWP games even using the same versions on all platforms so the server cost excuse can't be valid anymore? Same cost on all platforms but only behind a paywall on one version.
sure, it's worth complaining about, esp. if third party Xbox systems will be a thing. However, at this point MS and Sony snake charmed people for paying for online on the system with free games with Nintendo soon joining this money train.
 

ForgedByGeeks

Self-requested ban
Banned
Dec 1, 2017
601
Woodinville, WA
Really?? Windows 10 S Mode is doing fine and has a good infrastructure to succeed. Microsoft positioning it as a Mode for all SKUs of Windows 10 is a great way to make S Mode more accessible to the public. So don't be surprised if Windows 10 S Mode becomes popular in places like average consumers, education sector and certain enterprises and commercial sectors.

So while it won't current succeed in gaming, it'll likely prove popular in other places, simply because people want to run their apps /programs that Chrome OS doesn't have, while also having the benefit that Chrome OS has.

People should be more concerned about Valve in the future, everything that is moving away from their monopoly and Valve simply doesn't have the market power it has anymore. Valve is loosing the future generations of gamers, they're not going to rely on Steam anymore, they're likely going to go through App Store, Google Play, MS Store (XB/PC).

Personally, for me, Win10 S is already a huge success.

Got my dad a Surface Laptop running S and since I did, I haven't once had to go clean some stupid "performance" or "security" utility off his system that was actually a virus or destroyed the system perf.

While I would personally not want to run Win10 S, there is definitely a market for it.
 

ForgedByGeeks

Self-requested ban
Banned
Dec 1, 2017
601
Woodinville, WA
It's obvious you don't care about mods, or you wouldn't post "uwp > win32" in a PC gaming related tweet.

The ability to mod, tweak, improve or alter games to your own liking is one of the most significant perks of PC gaming. Many fresh ideas and even complete new game genres were born from mods or community content, including Microsofts little darling PUBG.

Yet you act surprised that PC gamers stand up against an ecosystem that tries to lock down PC games, making all of this very hard or even impossible? Based on some of the excellent articles you wrote about Microsofts terrible efforts to embrace PC gaming, you should know better Jez.

I also find it baffling that you don't see that a Microsoft controlled Workshop alternative is no replacement for unlimited modding. Go take a look at Nexusmods, there are thousands of great mods for games without official mod support. None of these mods would exist if PC games were released as UWP.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but most gamers don't care about mods.

If mods were that important, game consoles and mobile gaming would not be where they are today. Also, more game developers would put serious efforts into explicitly supporting and enabling mods in their games.
 

Bedlam

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,536
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but most gamers don't care about mods.

If mods were that important, game consoles and mobile gaming would not be where they are today. Also, more game developers would put serious efforts into explicitly supporting and enabling mods in their games.
They care for the results though, whether they know that the origins lie in the modding scene or not.

Whole genres and trends in gaming wouldn't exist without thriving modding scenes. See such influential mods such as Counter-Strike, DOTA and currently PUBG.
 

matimeo

UI/UX Game Industry Veteran
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
979
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but most gamers don't care about mods.

If mods were that important, game consoles and mobile gaming would not be where they are today. Also, more game developers would put serious efforts into explicitly supporting and enabling mods in their games.

This. I'm always shocked people on this forum don't get this. Gaming has grown to include so many people these days and there is so much content across so many platforms, people who care about modding are in the minority. The platform team working on the new format is a very small team and like any product features have to be stack ranked. Since it's not just for games and people who are looking to mod games are an even smaller percentage that feature is lower priority. It doesn't mean it's never coming, it will continuously be ranked against other needs.
 

ForgedByGeeks

Self-requested ban
Banned
Dec 1, 2017
601
Woodinville, WA
You claimed that UWA isn't something completely controlled by MS and wasn't designed to be, when it clearly is.
If MS really wanted to create a new application type as a replacement for W32, they would have consulted with stakeholders as to what such a replacement should be, what featuresets it has, and would have had some sort of aligned interest steering group, with the protocols and specifications available to all so that nobody was 'in control' of it going forward.

What they actually did was go ahead and make what they wanted to make, in a format only available to them, and (initially) only available via their own storefront, that was inferior to what was already available.

Thats not how you create a standard people get behind.

Actually, that is how you create a standard people get behind.

DirectX was designed by MS, as was the Win32 API set, and most of the so called standards people take for granted today for gaming.

Most of the open "standards" for gaming are frequently derived from what MS created.
 

Deleted member 5167

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Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but most gamers don't care about mods.

If mods were that important, game consoles and mobile gaming would not be where they are today. Also, more game developers would put serious efforts into explicitly supporting and enabling mods in their games.

Yes, keep telling yourself that.
Meanwhile some of the biggest titles around - PUBG, LOL, CS, TF2, Day Z - literally owe their very existence to mods, and older titles are routinely patched for QoL improvements even after the creators are long defunct or don't care anymore because they already have your money.

The 'UWA future' si the one where you're reliant on developers putting in 'serious effort' to allow mods.
The so-bust-we-gotta-ditch-it-because-reasons W32 present is where Dark Souls can shine even if Namco Bandai don't give a fuck until they want to resell a remaster 4 or 5 years down the line.
 

ForgedByGeeks

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Yes, keep telling yourself that.
Meanwhile some of the biggest titles around - PUBG, LOL, CS, TF2, Day Z - literally owe their very existence to mods, and older titles are routinely patched for QoL improvements even after the creators are long defunct or don't care anymore because they already have your money.

The 'UWA future' si the one where you're reliant on developers putting in 'serious effort' to allow mods.
The so-bust-we-gotta-ditch-it-because-reasons W32 present is where Dark Souls can shine even if Namco Bandai don't give a fuck until they want to resell a remaster 4 or 5 years down the line.

Are you reading anything Jez is posting?

MS is building mod support platform for UWP. If successful, it may even open up more games to modding because it will be safer and easier for games to supports mods.

Regardless, your point about a few big games coming out of modding efforts does not negate my comment that almost no gamers use mods or care about mods or the modding scene.
 

Deleted member 5167

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Regardless, your point about a few big games coming out of modding efforts does not negate my comment that almost no gamers use mods or care about mods or the modding scene.

YOU don't care about mods.
PEOPLE do care about mods.

Every WOW guild is running some form of Raid Timer UI.
Every Hearthstone player is running some kind of card value mod for Arena.
Every Twitch streamer is running some kind of custom layout with hooks for new subs.
Every 'classic' gamer is running some kind of unofficial patch to get their games working on modern systems nicely.
Every 'graphicswhore' gamer is running some kind of ENB mod, or Super sampling down from arbitray high resolutions.

Like... to claim that "nobody cares about mods" is so patently false it begs the question have you ever actually played a game on the Pc in your life?

e:
"Oh, bu-bu-but UWA will probably allow for certain types of mods at some point in the future, subject to publisher whims and developer work to permit them" is not a fucking counterpoint to "UWAs do not support mods"
 

ForgedByGeeks

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This. I'm always shocked people on this forum don't get this. Gaming has grown to include so many people these days and there is so much content across so many platforms, people who care about modding are in the minority. The platform team working on the new format is a very small team and like any product features have to be stack ranked. Since it's not just for games and people who are looking to mod games are an even smaller percentage that feature is lower priority. It doesn't mean it's never coming, it will continuously be ranked against other needs.

As much as I personally hate the guy (and I did some consulting for him back in early Xbox360 pre-launch times), Michael Pachter nailed back in the pre ERA forum days when he said that the forums knew jack about the games industry.

Just because people are passionate about gaming, the does not mean that they have any clue at all about the industry dynamics, what features sell games, or even what games are popular and why.

Anyone who knows the gaming industry at large only needs to look at what games get talked about here regularly to know how little knowledge is present here.

People praise games like God of War as ground breaking and how amazingly well it is selling with half a dozen threads on the home page for weeks.

Yet when BloonsTD5 launched on Xbox, there want even a thread about it even though the game has sold over 10 million on mobile platforms.

Games like PUBG get slammed for "only" have 1.8 million concurrents on a weekday, and Minecraft is basically never discussed dispute having 75+ Million Monthly Actives, but the new Minecraft update thread has less than 1 page of posts here while God of War is on its 2nd OT.

Whenever a big mobile game gets announced by a major publisher, it gets slammed by endless comments, even though it will likely outperform all its console bretheren and cost 1/10th the budget to produce. I am always left with the impression that almost no one here games on mobile.

"Worst Games of" lists are loaded with AAA titles. It's almost like the "Hardcore" gamers here don't actually play anything outside of AAA.

And on and on...

Meanwhile, I am debating hooking back up my desktop PC to download and try this game because it looks cool and it won't run on my Surface. The last concern I have is whether or not it supports mods or what store it is on.
 
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ForgedByGeeks

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YOU don't care about mods.
PEOPLE do care about mods.

Every WOW guild is running some form of Raid Timer UI.
Every Hearthstone player is running some kind of card value mod for Arena.
Every Twitch streamer is running some kind of custom layout with hooks for new subs.
Every 'classic' gamer is running some kind of unofficial patch to get their games working on modern systems nicely.
Every 'graphicswhore' gamer is running some kind of ENB mod, or Super sampling down from arbitray high resolutions.

Like... to claim that "nobody cares about mods" is so patently false it begs the question have you ever actually played a game on the Pc in your life?

e:
"Oh, bu-bu-but UWA will probably allow for certain types of mods at some point in the future, subject to publisher whims and developer work to permit them" is not a fucking counterpoint to "UWAs do not support mods"

You are arguing using strawman fallacy.

I said most gamers don't care about mods, which is accurate.

Also, it's hard to take you seriously when you keep replying and typing "UWA" when it's called "UWP".
 

SteveWinwood

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Oct 25, 2017
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Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but most gamers don't care about mods.

If mods were that important, game consoles and mobile gaming would not be where they are today. Also, more game developers would put serious efforts into explicitly supporting and enabling mods in their games.
most gamers dont give a shit about most of the things that are discussed on this board

including im sure many things you think are important regardless of their popularity with the masses
 

Deleted member 5167

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You are arguing using strawman fallacy.

I said most gamers don't care about mods, which is accurate.

You should look up the definition of irony while looking up the definition of strawman. Or I guess you have that study to hand to backup your claim that "most gamers" don't care?
Literally some of the biggest titles on the planet right now only exist due to mods. Titles that have more players than Xbox Ones have even sold.
 

ForgedByGeeks

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You should look up the definition of irony while looking up the definition of strawman. Or I guess you have that study to hand to backup your claim that "most gamers" don't care?
Literally some of the biggest titles on the planet right now only exist due to mods. Titles that have more players than Xbox Ones have even sold.

And... Another User to ignore.

People who argue in bad faith are just not worth my time
 

Deleted member 5167

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People who use "bad faith" as a substitute for "I can't actually rebut a position, but I don't like it" are actually the ones arguing in bad faith.
You have zero citations for your claims about "most people" (ad populum fallacy, for those who care), and you are handwaving the undisputable fact that literally some of the biggest most played games on the market only exist due to mods, because it would seem obvious that hundreds of millions of people playing games whose entire existence is entirely dependent on mods do in fact care about the game they are playing.

Which is literally the problem UWA has. "Why does nobody want to use this thing I made that doesn't have features I don;t think anyone cares about?"
itisamystery.gif
 

4Tran

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Nov 4, 2017
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You should look up the definition of irony while looking up the definition of strawman. Or I guess you have that study to hand to backup your claim that "most gamers" don't care?
Literally some of the biggest titles on the planet right now only exist due to mods. Titles that have more players than Xbox Ones have even sold.
Hell, some of the most popular genres, with hundreds of millions of players, started their lives as mods. The idea that game mods are unimportant is just dumb.
 

708

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Oct 25, 2017
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I'm sure ~37k people that are playing Skyrim on Steam right now, 7 years after its release, are playing it for the quality of the vanilla game and not mods. Nobody cares about mods. That's also the reason Bethesda brought mods to consoles.