I can dig up some quotes from this thread later, but just look at the endless drivel about how UWP not supporting mods is just unacceptable. Fair that me saying 100% is off, but...
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Frostpunk arrives on the Microsoft Store (Windows 10)
- Thread starter SuikerBrood
- Start date
I can dig up some quotes from this thread later, but just look at the endless drivel about how UWP not supporting mods is just unacceptable. Fair that me saying 100% is off, but...
been told in convos with Microsoft leadership people, but specifics, but they're adamant they want that sort of openness. ill get firm clarification in quotes @ E3.
using the desktop bridge you can slap a win32 game inside a uwp container, MS demonstrated Witcher 3 running via the desktop bridge (project centennial) in the past, but im not sure why the witcher 3 never materialized on uwp, I think CDPRED just agreed to let microsoft use it as a test run. they converted the Win32 version of Age II as well, and it was two years ago.
not sure, undoubtedly less of a priority back then. In the early days, UWP was presented to developers as a way to build apps for Windows 10 Mobile and IoT (build a responsive app that runs across all screen sizes, on both mobile ARM and x86 PC architecture). That was back when Microsoft still thought it had a chance in mobile. since the pivot back to the desktop, it refers to the collection of APIs that have been modernized under the universal platform. As pertains to games, UWP apps have the capability to have native DRM/security in ways Win32 isn't (i.e. Ubisoft DRM lagging up your PC, and the annoying Vista-era Security pop up thing the name of which i can't remember because im super drunk). all of that third-party junk you have to deal with like DRM, third-party window management wrappers, etc, is due to Win32 being a mess. guess Microsoft ever envisioned Windows would become the standard way to desktop compute for the next few decades.
Microsoft and Steam could work together to make sure Steamworks / APIs fully supports UWP, and devs would have an option to just sell their UWP stuff totally DRM free with access for old school non-platform mods they can just host on Nexus mods etc.
I trust Microsoft with this stuff, people also say I'm crazy though so, idk, maybe I am.
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37k playing Syria is nothing next to the millions playing something like Granbury Fantasy or Call of Duty and GTA5 on consoles.
Once again, its not that there isn't a market for mods, or that mods haven't been important to the industry at large, but arguing that lack of mod support in UWP is some horrible thing and a reason to avoid UWP for most gamers is ignoring the fact that mods don't even enter the equation for most gamers. Even if your argument is that many popular game originated as mods to other popular games, that doesn't mean that anyone playing those games really care or should care.
For someone who supposedly doesn't like "strawman arguments" and "bad faith" you sure are doing a lot of that yourself.
People don't want UWA because it does not offer things they particularly care about, and lacks things they do.
If UWA had been designed with the input of stakeholders as to what it is producers might want as a replacement for W32, and had prioritised features that consumers want not that benefit an overall corporate strategy, maybe things would be different.
But they're not. And here we are.
Feigning bewilderment as to why pushing features people don't care about and neglacting features people do care about is not super popular.
it can be unacceptable to some people and make them want to not support it
thats not the same as thinking its going to fail because of it, i doubt anyone thinks that, and after a quick skimming through the thread again pretty sure no one posted that
i mean i wouldn't be suprised if uwp fails in a few years (if we're following the gfwl trajectory we've got about five years to go, we're in the fun 'yeah its not great but itll totally get better it has to, they wouldn't abandon it its the future and theyve totally got the whole company behind this initiative, just wait for build' phase), but i dont think it would be entirely because of mod support
People on console don't care about mods because they don't have them, surprise.
People on PC care about them, because they have them, surprise.
All of Nexusmods, ENB, ReShade, Sweetfx, wide-screen mods, community patches, UI mods, savegegame editors, CheatEngine, trainers, dsfix, dpfix, FAR, SpecialK, GeDoSaTo, changing music, removing startup logos,... The list goes on.
Unofficial alterations to games is huge on PC.
And it's understandably annoying when you get told by primarily console gamers that all of that isn't really important and Papa Microsoft knows best, trust them and everything is going to be fine come next Build, despite them having a shaky history with PC gaming at best.
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DRM has nothing to do with UWA.
If MS really wanted to remove a pain point for end users and producers alike with 'third party jank', they could lift the redistribution restrictions on DirectX and VisualC++ so that titles using either of these do not have to run the DX / VC installer upon application installation every single time even where the target machine already has all necessary files installed, which is a legal necessity to adhere to Ms T&Cs, not a technical one.
OP
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League of Legends originated from Defense of the Ancients on Warcraft 3. A modding system like Warcraft 3 has should be completely possible with UWP. And something like Steam Workshop has made games as Cities Skylines much better.
I understand the need for full game modding and I don't think your complaints are invalid. But for most games full mod support from either MS or the dev is already more than enough.
1) I am not saying modding isn't important. Just that it's not used by most gamers and most don't care about modding.
2) Just because there is a ton of modding on PCS and you are personally involved in that community does not also imply even 5% of the PC gaming community cares or uses mods.
3) Mods are on consoles for Skyrim, FallOut4, Cities Skylines, and a few others.
4) If mods were as important as you and many others are acting like it is, all major game developers would be doing work to support and enable the mod community explicitly. Compared to the budgets needed for a modern AAA game, enabling a good modding experience is realities cheap. When most of these companies won't even make a basic investment into the activity, that alone tells you how valuable and large the community is.
As a counter point, look at Minecraft. It was clear modding was extremely valuable for that game and as a result it supported the modding community early and often.
I thought I smelled a little funny...
Play Anywhere is a compelling reason to accept the trade off that's part of UWP. There are lots of things I don't like about the Store and being a user of UWP games, but it's not as though there is no upside.
And before the inevitable "But you can have cross-play/buy without UWP" sure, I could wish for a lot of things to be true, but as it stands a unified store and account is the only way that it currently happens.
Haha no you're not crazy. You've got much more knowledge about Microsoft than most of us.
But for me, to get the same trust in Microsoft than you have, I'd like to see actual results. So yeah, I hope you're right!
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This is ridiculous. Most PC gamers don't have an Xbox, so play anywhere is useless for them. And even if it wasn't, cross-buy and cross-play are no excuse to lock down PC gaming.
FYI: Steam is offering cross-buy and cross-play between Windows, Linux, Mac and SteamOS as well.
I did not say "excuse," I said "compelling reason to accept the tradeoff," the implication there being for people who value it. Like me. It turns out that there are people who are not the same as you, and that doesn't make them garbage - which was the point of my post.
Oh I see, my apologies. Of course I understand that Play Anywhere is great for Xbox owners.
Yeah, till the mod explodes and is so popular that the mod becomes it's own game.
A big part of innovation/new genres only exists because of mods.
Counterstrike, Team Fortress, MOBAs, Tower Defence, Battle Royale, ...
The most popular games out there right now, aka DOTA, LOL, PUBG, Fortnite are all based on mods. Overwatch too is heavily inspired by Team Fortress, a mod. Also counter-strike. The modding community is hugely influential, even if you may not be aware of or directly impacted by it.
Most PC Gamers don't run Linux or MacOS so it is useless for Steam to support it.
Most PC Gamers don't have a GTX1060 or higher so it is useless for games to spend money to add textures and other support for those cards.
Most Gamers don't care about locked down games on Consoles and Mobile and Console + Mobile is a significantly larger market than PC gamers so it's useless for developers to worry about supporting markets that aren't locked down.
/s
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To be fair, a lot of those mods turned into games happened before toolsets like Unity and Unreal Engine that are free to use (until sales exceed certain levels) for most small indies became available.
In many cases today, it would be easier and faster to develop new games using these tools and buying a simple framework off their stores than to hack in and mod an existing title.
Yes and this is why mods are important, but this doesn't mean that most gamers care or ever even use mods.
People also act like UWP will be the death of mods.
Mods aren't going away. UWP isn't going away. UWP is adding modding support and that support should be making it easier for game developers to build modding support into games.
I am really sick of the black and white thinking here.
It's not all or nothing in gaming or business. Games aren't just good or bad. There are bad games with good parts are freaking amazing games with a horrible feature design decision.
Mods can be beneficial to the industry even if most gamers could give 2 fs about them and never use them and not care whether buying a copy of a game they want on the Windows Stores prevents them from being able to mod the game.
Most developers do not provide full modding support because they do not have to.
Modding goes beyond creating new content using customer facing developer tools.
If, say, the game GTAIV is completely unplayable on a modern system due to an ill thought out dalliance with a proprietary API that was abandoned by the provider due to customer indifference, people can mod that reliance out and get that title working on modern systems.
The work of the people who made xliveless.dll might have been done by a minority, but it allows the majority to play a game long after a service provider abandoned their responsibilities. Whats the alternative? Wait for the GTAIV 'remaster'?
I know this poster has me on ignore, so maybe someone else would care to explain why the sales of titles via the W10 appstore are so bad when apparently 'nobody' cares about the missing features that purchasing from there results in.
Maybe everyone is just a 'hater'.
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You put LoL as an example. That's why I responded. MS will embrace that kind of modding no doubt.
"Most PC Gamers" don't loose anything in this case.
"Most PC Gamers" don't loose anything in this case.
You have this twisted, 2 fs were given when CoD launched on the Windows Store.
It's not just MOBA games; there's also the Battle Royale and the Team-based Shooters. The bigger deal is that UWP works against the concept of open gaming that allows for mods, and that's something that gives the Windows Store bad press amongst PC gaming enthusiast circles.
The main reasons are probably that the Windows Store gives so little to users that there's little incentive to use it and that the other storefronts are better established and more convenient to use. However, the lack of mod support drives away the PC gaming enthusiasts so there's no one left to cheerlead for games on the Windows Store other than Xbox fans. And as they're Xbox fans, these gamers are primarily playing on consoles hence their input doesn't count for all that much.
So.. this thread has like three times more posts than the official Frostpunk thread.. let that sink in..
"Most PC Gamers" don't loose anything in this case.
"Most PC Gamers" don't loose anything in this case.
You have this twisted, 2 fs were given when CoD launched on the Windows Store.
Missed the /s at the end I see...
Also with the last bit, you are seriously confusing cause and affect.
What does lack of mod support have to do with CoD lacking user base on Windows Store version (assuming that is even accurate as I would be seriously surprised it it didn't cross play with other CoD PC versions)?
If anything this is much easier to explain with Network Effects, which is also the biggest factor likely hindering Windows Store adoption in general.
I didn't ...
His argument doesn't belong into your /s line.
I think you'll find that many people do not care about the "open nature" of PC gaming. The amount of people modding games is miniscule in the grand scheme of things. Even DS Fix, something you constantly bring up, only has like 2 million downloads wasn't it? The PS4 has sold 80 million consoles in 4 years and it's not an open platform. Most big games on PC are online only and you get banned quick smart for modding
Yes some people care about modding, a lot of people.. No-one is denying that. The majority could not care less though. The majority download a game from steam and play it as is.
People saying UWP was made to prop up windows phone and Xbox are, again, showing that they have no idea what UWP is or why it was created. It's a common theme with all these bash UWP/Microsoft store threads.
Dark Souls PC sales are only at about 2 million in the first place, which means the majority of Dark Souls owners on the PC care about mods.
A compelling reason for the few people who see benefits in using it. After buying a powerful PC I couldn't care less about using my Xbox for games, Play Anywhere or not. And even for those who do care, very few owns both systems.
It wasn't made for phones, it was made for the future - all devices of all sizes and form factors. One code base to run on anything with minimal effort for developers. Are phones one of those form factors? Absolutely. Were phones the reason why UWP was made? Not at all. UWP is a safe, secure, write once release everywhere, future proofed format. It was not made to prop up phones and xbox.
No, having a completely separate version of Windows just for S mode is dumb, which is why they've just made it a toggle in the regular code base. It's much better and easier to manage as a toggle.
At least someone gets it.
MS doesn't put this much effort into making a new executable format (Yea that's not exactly what it is, but close enough) just for the lols. It also doesn't keep working on something if it was built for an explicitly failed product. IE - If UWP was for Windows Phone, it would also be dead now. See Microsoft Band & The new Microsoft Health stuff they were pushing.
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I seriously need to buy this game. Just with it ran on lower hardware, even with worse graphics, so I could take it with me.
Probably going to hook back up desktop PC just just for this game.
There's a difference between supporting a feature, and adding a feature at the cost of several other features.
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Supporting anything or adding anything always has tradeoffs.
In business, during planning and frequently during development, Producers/Program Managers/Product Managers will build a complete feature list. In this list will be everything from characters in a game to the number of levels, AI complexity, etc... It also will include things like OS support (Windows, Mac, Linux, Consoles, iOS/Android) and marketplaces they plan to release on.
For a lot of gaming projects, things like Mod support at varying levels will also be on the lists.
Then you prioritize the list and add a red line between 2 of the features. Everything above the line is planned to be in and everything below the line is out.
Frequently, the lists also have conflicted features mapped together or listed in separate sheets or columns. As an example, you might have Mod support as conflicting to UWP/Windows Store support.
If a conflicting item cross the red line, it can add or remove other items from the list.
If a new feature is added as the schedule progresses (frequently because developers are using Spiral methodology or one of the many agile methodologies and something changed in the world or the market they plan to release the game into) this can further adjust the red line and the priority listing of features.
It doesn't matter if your feature is supporting UWP release on Windows Store which blocks Modding or increasing texture resolution or supporting Linux, everything is a tradeoff.
Frequently, getting the product in front of more users for a minimal cost will Trump all other tradeoffs, and for good reason. If you don't sell more copies of your game, you may not even break even, let alone profit.
Given how few users mod or care about modding, building a UWP version of a game and releasing it on the Windows Store likely trumps any concerns about upsetting a few users that will care about that locking out current modding solutions, especially if the product is also planned for distribution on other market places that do not prevent modding for users who want that flexibility.
Miserable Monday morning, and this post just brightened my day. Thank you good sir, for making me laugh.
I'm glad you can switch monitors so easily.
Shame switching windows store games between different windows machines is a very difficult task. That's much less useful than switching monitors
Shame switching windows store games between different windows machines is a very difficult task. That's much less useful than switching monitors
I'm a developer myself so I know, trust me. :)
But there's no connection between cross-play/buy, and locking game files to prevent modding, tweaking and community content. As I've said before: Valve is offering these features as well, yet they don't lock down anything.
I'm pretty sure that much more PC gamers care about modding than Play Anywhere. Those "few users" you're talking about are millions of people, often the most dedicated PC gamers. Being able to mod, alter, tweak and improve games to your own liking is one of the most significant perks of PC gaming. What Microsoft offers is the console experience: you buy a game "as is", and you can't change anything without support from the developer.
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UWA and the W10 appstore are both failed products, but they are locked into supporting both of them due to the Xbox divisions choice to make an appstore their primary digital distribution method for the PC.
They're locked into UWA because the appstore doesn't support anything else.
They're locked into the appstore because its far to late to redeem the GFWL storefront.
Come Nextbox, I wouldn't be surprised to see both quietly killed off.
I'm legitimately surprised you have never used an unofficial community bugfix patch, an ENB type image quality fix (even just removing piss filters), a third party controller support fix or played a MOBA.
The people actively creating mods is small. The number of people actively consuming mods is orders of magnitude higher.
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I've played a mod for Crusader Kings 2 once. But after a couple of weeks it was broken. So that wasn't a big success.
And I've played many custom maps in Warcraft, Starcraft, Minecraft, etc. Ofcourse.
And I've played many custom maps in Warcraft, Starcraft, Minecraft, etc. Ofcourse.
I debate whether that community is actually even 1 million in size.
I remember back in the early 90s, when games locked themselves to stupid checks for anti-piracy like Star Control 2's map system, modding to remove some of that was huge, but so was modding for piracy and cheating.
If you remove tools for cheating and piracy from the mix, there is still modding out there, but I just don't see the huge market. To me it's like Home brew games on molded consoles. Sure, people could play them, and some people did, but most people just molded to cheat or pirate.
Of course like anything there is always exceptions to the rules. Minecraft is by far the largest. With its 75+ Million Monthly Actives, it has built a huge modding community. This community was supported by the creator of the game and his studio from very early on and even encouraged. They spent a ton of money and effort to enable modding in Minecraft and, in part due to the nature of the game, we're rewarded handsomely, but they are the exception and not the rule.
For every Minecraft there is are hundreds of games like Overwatch.
But, getting back on topic and replying to one of your core points, if you want to mod you can get the game from a service that allows modding.
Why are you and so many others worried and/or threatened by UWP enough to be posting so much here complaining about it not supporting modding when, especially in this case, it actually isn't even impacting your ability to mod. All that's happening is the developer is giving users a path to purchase the game from an additional market option.
And Age of Empires: DE was dead on arrival due to it being exclusive for WIn 10 store. I would have bought it in a heartbeat if it was released on Uplay or Origin, cause those clients still remembers what PC gaming is.