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Frozen 2 |OT| Avatar: The Last Icebender (Open Spoilers)

What did you think of Frozen 2?

  • I loved it!

    Votes: 145 31.1%
  • I liked it

    Votes: 141 30.3%
  • I thought it was okay

    Votes: 134 28.8%
  • I didn't like it

    Votes: 31 6.7%
  • I hated it

    Votes: 15 3.2%

  • Total voters
    466

freshlysqueezed

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,455
NoVA
Oh look, a Disney sequel that was actually worth the wait. Lovely movie, with lots of cool world building, that takes the characters to new and interesting places literally and figuratively. Songs weren't as good as the original, but almost everything else about it was better. Also, Disney, please don't make me wait another six years for Frozen 3.
 

Soriku

Member
Nov 12, 2017
1,853
Decent movie but ended too happily. I know it's a Disney movie but I wanted Elsa + Olaf to die (lol yeah right) or at least Arendelle to fall (ala Thor Ragnarok and say Arendelle is it's people not the land blah blah) but the city was saved as well so meh. Didn't feel like there was any loss. I liked Elsa transferring the throne to Anna though - made the power gap more even (one person has the ice powers, the other is a queen- instead of one person having both).
 

Starphanluke

Member
Nov 15, 2017
1,791
Hang on, a day later something is confusing me. Why didn’t Dad want to tell the girls that his rescuer was Mom? I mean, he knows, right? Is it a secret that she’s from the northern people? Who do the girls think their grandparents are on their mother’s side? Where do they think she grew up? Is it a secret from them and/or the kingdom or something?
The dad didn't know until some time later, as Elsa sees later in the movie.
 
OP
OP
BDS

BDS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,872
The thing about Arendelle not being destroyed is it works within the movie's plot as a metaphor for reparations. The movie's message is that you aren't responsible for the sins of your forefathers, but you do have a responsibility to make it right. Privileged people are terrified that making reparations for the past means their own quality of life will somehow suffer or be destroyed in favor of the minority; that an egalitarian society is a zero-sum game where the minority's gain can only come at the majority's expense.

It's important to note Arendelle is not a "colonizer" of the Northuldra -- they didn't seize their lands, Arendelle wasn't built on their property, etc. In the flashbacks it is made clear that Arendelle and the Northuldra were essentially equally matched forces and that's why Runeard had to employ deception to try and destroy them. If Arendelle was more of an overt white colonizing oppressor then we could probably have a conversation about whether the kingdom needed to be destroyed or handed over to the Northuldra, but that's not actually the case.
 

Vestal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,581
Tampa FL
Just got home from taking my girls.. It was a worthy sequel. Very nice messages in the movie, and the music was good as well. Visuals were absolutely amazing and awe inspiring at times.... Most of the music numbers were very much on point.. Olaf was amazing! hehe

My only gripe was that I feel they went a bit too far with the musical aspects particularly in the first 30 minutes. It was like 4-5 musical numbers.
 

AuthenticM

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,697
I think the story is much more cohesive; it doesn't feel like it was rewritten a bunch like the first movie was. That's the movie's strongest suit.

On the negative side, the songs weren't as memorable... and I take issue with the white savior / Last of the Mohican shit they pulled with the ending by having Elsa abdicate the throne to live amongst the natives. On top of being socially reprehensible, it just didn't make sense for Elsa to do this. It was an unbelievable decision.

Also, I think the first movie's emotional beats were stronger.

I liked Frozen 2, but the more I think about it, the more I think I like the first one better despite its weird writing.
 

Surakian

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,136
I think the story is much more cohesive; it doesn't feel like it was rewritten a bunch like the first movie was. That's the movie's strongest suit.

On the negative side, the songs weren't as memorable... and I take issue with the white savior / Last of the Mohican shit they pulled with the ending by having Elsa abdicate the throne to live amongst the natives. On top of being socially reprehensible, it just didn't make sense for Elsa to do this. It was an unbelievable decision.

Also, I think the first movie's emotional beats were stronger.

I liked Frozen 2, but the more I think about it, the more I think I like the first one better despite its weird writing.
While it does feel like something of a "white savior" moment, both Elsa and Anna ARE part-Northuldra due their mother being Northuldra. I think it is sort of tragic it was clearly a decision made for this sequel so their indigenous roots were not something that could be implemented into their character designs, and also I'm peeved by the fact that Northuldran culture or the Northuldran characters weren't explored more.

I get where you are coming from with this, though. It's really shameless because you can tell the filmmakers knew this would be an issue which is likely what prompted them to make Anna and Elsa part-Northuldra to begin with.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,699
Visuals, songs, jokes, character interactions. All top notch.

The plot has structural issues, for sure. There's only two real acts. Elsa doesn't have to do anything to calm the Earth spirits, which sort of implies that she didn't need to calm any of them at all. If you run the plot back, it's about a spirit calling Elsa to come watch a security tape of a murder, then tell people about it. That doesn't ultimately provide enough of a spine for the movie to build around. I think a true villain could have helped with the structure. There's all this build-up in both Frozen movies about how magic is something to be cautious around, but in this one, Elsa's never really punished for leaning in so hard on trusting spirits and magic. And that hurts Anna's character, who I feel has valid concerns to voice. And the movie even agrees! But honestly, it doesn't really show that. Every time Anna gets ditched by Elsa, I fail to see what Anna could've done to help anyway. Like Elsa getting across the sea; how does Anna contribute to that? How did she contribute to calming the fire spirit? Etc...

Overall though, not bad. (I voted that it was okay)

The thing about Arendelle not being destroyed is it works within the movie's plot as a metaphor for reparations. The movie's message is that you aren't responsible for the sins of your forefathers, but you do have a responsibility to make it right. Privileged people are terrified that making reparations for the past means their own quality of life will somehow suffer or be destroyed in favor of the minority; that an egalitarian society is a zero-sum game where the minority's gain can only come at the majority's expense.

It's important to note Arendelle is not a "colonizer" of the Northuldra -- they didn't seize their lands, Arendelle wasn't built on their property, etc. In the flashbacks it is made clear that Arendelle and the Northuldra were essentially equally matched forces and that's why Runeard had to employ deception to try and destroy them. If Arendelle was more of an overt white colonizing oppressor then we could probably have a conversation about whether the kingdom needed to be destroyed or handed over to the Northuldra, but that's not actually the case.
My issue with this in the film is that Arendelle makes no reparations. From the perspective of people that live there, one day, the weather went totally batshit for a few days. Real End of Days stuff. And then a tidal wave almost sunk the city, but Elsa did magic and stopped it. And they go back to how things were like three days before.

Ultimately that gets at my biggest issue with this movie, which is the lack of purpose. Conveniently, the thing Elsa sets out to do for Arendelle (fix the weather again, essentially) lines up exactly with what the Northundrian people need. So there's no balancing act, or conversation between groups. Sure, they're grumpy at each other when we're introduced to them, but Elsa quickly explains "Spirits mad, I'll make them not mad. Cool?" and they're all down with that.

On the negative side, the songs weren't as memorable... and I take issue with the white savior / Last of the Mohican shit they pulled with the ending by having Elsa abdicate the throne to live amongst the natives. On top of being socially reprehensible, it just didn't make sense for Elsa to do this. It was an unbelievable decision.
Well, Elsa wouldn't be entirely white (which yes, is a strange thing to say just looking at her). It's often a thing in fiction for a character to find their inner Native and strap a whole culture on their back (see: Sherman Alexie's How to Tell the Great American Indian Novel), but in this case, Elsa is straight-up half Northuldrian. She goes back because she's the magical daughter, and therefore has more of a connection to her mom than her dad, at least in who she belongs with.

I had several issues with the movie, but this one worked out fine I think.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,112
My biggest gripe with the movie is that if there's a 3rd you'll be able to skip the 2nd movie entirely I imagine w/o missing out on much. Nothing of note really happens beside Elsa abdicating in favour of Anna. A new problem arises but is solved immediately, stuff gets explored that really didn't need an explanation and characters didn't change all that much.

Also Kristoff was completely pointless in the movie.
 
My biggest gripe with the movie is that if there's a 3rd you'll be able to skip the 2nd movie entirely I imagine w/o missing out on much. Nothing of note really happens beside Elsa abdicating in favour of Anna. A new problem arises but is solved immediately, stuff gets explored that really didn't need an explanation and characters didn't change all that much.
Elsa abdicating is a pretty big change to the status quo. As well as the sisters’ backstory and introducing the Northauldra, who one imagines will continue to be in the picture.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,112
Elsa abdicating is a pretty big change to the status quo. As well as the sisters’ backstory and introducing the Northauldra, who one imagines will continue to be in the picture.
Imo you're not missing out not knowing that backstory but you're right that Elsa abdicating is the biggest change in where Frozen 1 left off and that Northuldra's appearing in frozen 3 is a possibility. They'll probably get a short exposition dump if they do just in case however.

Regarding Elsa abdicating it's both set up in the movie but also contrived. Elsa wasn't shown to be a bad queen and there wasn't much reason given for why she has to stay and be a bridge between the elements in the forest. She was queen for close to 6 years and Arrendale looked to be doing well under her rule too.
 
Regarding Elsa abdicating it's both set up in the movie but also contrived. Elsa wasn't shown to be a bad queen and there wasn't much reason given for why she has to stay and be a bridge between the elements in the forest. She was queen for close to 6 years and Arrendale looked to be doing well under her rule too.
She didn't have to stay, I don't think; she wanted to. Hence, her songs about a growing desire to be elsewhere. Though she also does have somewhat-vague responsibilities as this world's Avatar equivalent.
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,826
Imo you're not missing out not knowing that backstory but you're right that Elsa abdicating is the biggest change in where Frozen 1 left off and that Northuldra's appearing in frozen 3 is a possibility. They'll probably get a short exposition dump if they do just in case however.

Regarding Elsa abdicating it's both set up in the movie but also contrived. Elsa wasn't shown to be a bad queen and there wasn't much reason given for why she has to stay and be a bridge between the elements in the forest. She was queen for close to 6 years and Arrendale looked to be doing well under her rule too.
Elsa being bored and restless as Queen, having extremely powerful powers but using them to entertain guests seemed like what they were trying to go for with "into the Unknown" and they really should have hammered down on that aspect in the opening act leading into the song instead of doing... all the weird cutesy stuff with bad songs.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,475
Technically Elsa didn't abdicate, she died, and Anna inherited. Obviously her coming back to life makes things a little complicated, but there's a good legal argument that she can't get the crown back. Which is another reason she really shouldn't be at the coronation!
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,495
Canada
Saw this last night. Not sure where I land, probably in-between it was okay and I didn't like it. There's a lot of weird character stuff in this movie that didn't feel like a natural progression of the original. Kristoph basically has nothing to do in this movie and so does Anna til the end. Olaf is extremely grating and I was kind of hoping he had stayed dead. I don't know how to feel about the colonialist stuff. I see they took the criticism to having no people of colour in the last movie to heart at least.

None of the songs really made me feel anything, except for Kristoph's, that shit was some good 80s love song shit.

Throughout the movie I just kept feeling like everything looked so dull, even in the enchanted forest. It's weird. Maybe I'm just all Frozen'd out, especially after falling off a mountain multiple times in KH3.
 

Djredline

Member
Oct 26, 2017
361
Oh look, a Disney sequel that was actually worth the wait. Lovely movie, with lots of cool world building, that takes the characters to new and interesting places literally and figuratively. Songs weren't as good as the original, but almost everything else about it was better. Also, Disney, please don't make me wait another six years for Frozen 3.
Exactly my thoughts.

The songs are not as memorable but overall the film experience was better than the original. All that mattered in the end was if my daughter enjoyed it (which she did)
 

Orb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,836
USA
Saw it last night with my kid, thought it was straight up terrible. As soon as it opened with a flashback lore dump I was not liking it.
 

SealedSeven

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
822
I think I realized what was missing in the film. An Anna/Elsa duet, similar to the first films reprise of "For the First Time in Forever." This movie kind of had everyone split up doing their own thing and not really connecting again til end of movie.
 
Nov 13, 2017
5,391
Just got home from taking my girls.. It was a worthy sequel. Very nice messages in the movie, and the music was good as well. Visuals were absolutely amazing and awe inspiring at times.... Most of the music numbers were very much on point.. Olaf was amazing! hehe

My only gripe was that I feel they went a bit too far with the musical aspects particularly in the first 30 minutes. It was like 4-5 musical numbers.
Really? I felt like Frozen 1 completely forgot it was a musical after the first half of the movie. Frozen 2 had the perfect balance of music IMO.
 

SteveMeister

Member
Oct 31, 2017
497
The more I think about it, the more I feel that Elsa should have become incorporeal as the fifth spirit, like Gale. She “dies”, gets her message off, but instead of being revived when the dam breaks, she comes back as the disembodied fifth spirit. She can still ride the water horse and save Arendell, and Olaf can still be revived, but as she has no physical form of course Anna remains queen. Really, all they needed was an art change, but I think it would have worked better and given meaning to Elsa’s sacrifice.
 

SteveMeister

Member
Oct 31, 2017
497
Oh and I usually don’t like the “pop star” versions of the songs they play in the closing credits, but Panic! At the Disco’s version of “Into the Unknown” is great. Lead singer’s got some pipes!
 

peppermints

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,552
I feel like this movie will really shine once we get an HDR home release. Was thinking that the whole time.

I watched a Revenge of the Sith last night, and some of the dialogue between Anakin and Padme that’s meant to be completely sincere and serious was delivered the same as the ongoing riffs between Kristoff trying to be sweet to Anna and Anna taking it the wrong way, which was obviously played for laughs in Frozen 2.

I thought the little lizard friend was under utilized to be honest. Overall better than the first though mostly because it wasn’t by the numbers like the first one.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
7,982
They made a big deal about water having memories and being important to the magic of nature, so I'm guessing the dam was blocking that water from flowing to Arendelle, which pissed off the nature spirits? Not really sure, honestly... Also not sure why the northerners appreciated the building of the dam or needed it in the first place. Also not sure why breaking it would drown all of Arendelle if that water obviously didn't pose a problem before the dam was built, or are we supposed to believe they built up the current kingdom in just the last 30 years?

Elsa and Ana are, as a pair, manifestations of the fifth nature spirit that is supposed to form a bridge between the magic of nature and the normal people in Arendelle... I think? Either way, her mom was a northerner, so I assume they meant to convey that her powers passed down from her mom's side and their connection to nature and its magic, and that's why Elsa belonged in the north.

Honestly, I'm a bit confused about the details, too.
Elsa basically stopped the initial deluge and then the water settled into the ocean without drowning everyone, so apparently the waterflow was fine before the dam, just the initial flood would've wiped out Arrendale. So even if they decided not to save Arrendale, it wouldn't have been underwater forever, but the buildings and everything would've been wiped out like a tsunami hit them. Seems really dumb not to think of that if that's your evil plan... like was grandpa just going to position a force to extend his kingdom and make the dam part of it before the mist came, or risk his whole town flooding if someone succeeded in breaking it?

It also made the choice really easy, because Elsa knew there were no people there anyway, and while losing everyone's homes would've been tough, they kind of had to do it considering the spirits didn't want them living there anyway.

I did like how they presented the parents' backstory and just gave us snippets of how the mom kept her secret.

One thing I was confused about: I think the mom snuck away under the blanket to get out of the North (though I'm not sure, because surely she had parents?). So were the people we saw all that was left of the soldiers trapped in the mist and the northern people? I figured that the northerners trapped in the mist would've greatly outnumbered the Arrendale forces and easily taken back the dam long ago... it didn't seem like a lot of them escaped (and if they did, they wouldn't have been welcomed in Arrendale, so where did they go?).

Was it just me or did they leave the option open that the parents are still alive somehow?
 

Brock Reiher

Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,452
talked to someone who saw it this weekend as well. we both agreed it was a total 10 but lost in the woods and Olaf dealing with the realization that he will one day die were the best parts
 

Finaj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,359
Yeah. I noticed that too.

There's actually quite a bit of footage from that first teaser that was cut from the film.

I wonder if there were big rewrites. Jennifer Lee stated she needed help with the script from Allison Schroeder because it was difficult to write the script and transfer into her new role as head of Disney Animation Studios at the same time.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,112
Elsa being bored and restless as Queen, having extremely powerful powers but using them to entertain guests seemed like what they were trying to go for with "into the Unknown" and they really should have hammered down on that aspect in the opening act leading into the song instead of doing... all the weird cutesy stuff with bad songs.
Yeah the song seemed to make up the problem more than voicing Elsa's restlessness and it's not like Anna as queen hearing a strange voice wouldn't go chasing after it.
You briefly see her being anxious at a soiree but she genuinely looked like a good queen in the beginning.

Also they had this whole exposition dump saying Northundras aren't magical so it isn't really explained where Elsa's powers come from and also her mom knew the voice using it to call a wind spirit to save their dad.
I don't remember if the other natives could hear the voice like also.
 

Ramala

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,749
The thing about Arendelle not being destroyed is it works within the movie's plot as a metaphor for reparations. The movie's message is that you aren't responsible for the sins of your forefathers, but you do have a responsibility to make it right. Privileged people are terrified that making reparations for the past means their own quality of life will somehow suffer or be destroyed in favor of the minority; that an egalitarian society is a zero-sum game where the minority's gain can only come at the majority's expense.

It's important to note Arendelle is not a "colonizer" of the Northuldra -- they didn't seize their lands, Arendelle wasn't built on their property, etc. In the flashbacks it is made clear that Arendelle and the Northuldra were essentially equally matched forces and that's why Runeard had to employ deception to try and destroy them. If Arendelle was more of an overt white colonizing oppressor then we could probably have a conversation about whether the kingdom needed to be destroyed or handed over to the Northuldra, but that's not actually the case.
Northuldra has magic, or was in closer connection to the elemental spirits. Runeard feared the potential of magic wielded as a weapon more than anything else. At least that’s what I got out of it.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,112
He literally saw them as his subjects not as allies, he mentions them not bowing to him, and wanted to subdue them was my takeaway.
 

SDBurton

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,336
You're not a voice
You're just a ringing in my ear
And if I heard you (which I don't)
I'm spoken for I fear
Everyone I've ever loved is here within these walls
I'm sorry, secret siren, but I'm blocking out your calls
I've had my adventure, I don't need something new
I'm afraid of what I'm risking if I follow you
Into the unknown
The meta in these lyrics are so goddamn good. I need a Frozen 3 Elsa x Honeymaren adventure ASAP.
 
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OP
BDS

BDS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,872
You're not a voice
You're just a ringing in my ear
And if I heard you (which I don't)
I'm spoken for I fear
Everyone I've ever loved is here within these walls
I'm sorry, secret siren, but I'm blocking out your calls
I've had my adventure, I don't need something new
I'm afraid of what I'm risking if I follow you
Into the unknown
The meta in these lyrics are so goddamn good. I need a Frozen 3 Elsa x Honeymaren adventure ASAP.
Local Magic Lesbian Abdicates Throne After Mystery Voice Tells Her To Abandon Kingdom For First Woman She Meets
 

Beefy

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,343
Nice white saviour shit going in this film...

Whole tribe parts were so bad

Songs were poor
 
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YukiCT

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,068
I really loved the film except for olaf which I will always continue to show my displeasure. If there's something I wished it would have improved on, it would have been that this film generally needed a longer run time. Then again, I watched Irishman which felt long prior but I think letting exchanges happen more and explore the region and characters would have been nice. It was a lot to introduce but very little time spent moving at a very brisk pace from location to location. I think the story itself is much better than the first and hits the emotional beats very well. The Shipwreck and seeing Elsa's face, Anna falling apart but picking herself back up. They didn't really have any duets though. The animation was beautiful. I want to watch it again for sure particular as there's a few things I didn't quite follow.
 

Derpot

Member
Nov 18, 2017
337
France
I thought the movie was... okay. It's beautiful, there were some funny moments, I wasn't a big fan of the songs though, but maybe it's because I watched it in French so it might have a bad impact on the lyrics, I suppose. I think the first Frozen was better.

The lack of conflict and grudge between the soldiers of Arendelle and the tribe was... very weird to me.
It's as if as soon as Elsa appeared, no one gave a shit about what happened in the past anymore.
I understand they were all stuck in the forest for years so they grew tired of it at some point, I don't know, but it was weird how friendly they became when Elsa was there? I mean, what the hell, you were killing each other years ago, your leaders got killed and shit, no one is pissed, even a little? They showed a bit of hostility at first, and then it completely disappeared thanks to Elsa's presence (and powers).

And I know I'm gonna be a minority here, but I didn't like what they did to Kristoff. I liked him a lot in the first movie, he was funny and his interactions with Anna were very good, he was great as Anna's sidekick. But in Frozen 2, it just seems like his personality and role have been reduced to "Anna's awkward lover", and that's it. His song was intentionally cheesy and funny, but at some point, I was just like "okay we get it lol, you can stop now". I understand that the story wasn't about him, it was about Elsa and Anna (mostly about how awesome Elsa was because she can do anything lmao), but jeez Anna wasn't worried about Kristoff at all, she didn't think about him or mention him once, it was all about Elsa all the time (he should go with Ryder, he cared about him at least lol)

Also, I approve Elsa x Honeymaren. I liked the moment when they were together at the campfire, even if it was short. As soon as I saw it, I knew she was the one haha
 

Chivalry

Member
Nov 22, 2018
1,947
F1 is in my top 5 movies ever, but this one is just okay. Isn't as tight or memorable as the first one and the ending is weird. Anna is not as fun in this one, since all she does is cling to her sister and do nothing until the last ten minutes. Kristoff is wasted here again. The plot was all over the place and lacked focus. The northuldra stuff was boring, and while I appreciate the lore and stuff, I really don't care about all that and just want to see the sisters have a fun, emotional adventure together. The ending is really weird. The songs are okay for the most part. The lullaby is great, but the showstoppers aren't as catchy or awesome as Let it Go or First Time in Forever.