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We have an update on ResetEra's ownership. More info here!
I do wonder if Jensen's comments are primarily because of their NDA with Nintendo, or their deal with Mediatek or both.
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The Windows on Arm market?
If so, I imagine if Nvidia's partnership with Mediatek is successful, Mediatek might ask to partner with Nvidia on designing Arm based SoCs with Nvidia's mobile GPU for Windows on Arm devices.
Surface market isn't really growing.
And Nv's approach here is to buy Arm obviously instead of producing low margin SoCs for OEMs.
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The week of 3 October 2021 will be a very busy one.
There's Samsung Foundry Forum 2021 from 6-8 October 2021.
And 8 October 2021 is the launch day for the OLED model. So hopefully nobody has to wait too long for a complete teardown; and hopefully the questions about whether or not the OLED model's dock has a new DisplayPort to HDMI converter chip based on the Aula datamine rumours, and how close to 100% accurate are the Aula datamine rumours, will be answered.
EDIT: Nintendo Prime uploaded a video of a full teardown of the OLED model, including the dock.
There's Samsung Foundry Forum 2021 from 6-8 October 2021.
And 8 October 2021 is the launch day for the OLED model. So hopefully nobody has to wait too long for a complete teardown; and hopefully the questions about whether or not the OLED model's dock has a new DisplayPort to HDMI converter chip based on the Aula datamine rumours, and how close to 100% accurate are the Aula datamine rumours, will be answered.
EDIT: Nintendo Prime uploaded a video of a full teardown of the OLED model, including the dock.
- There's an Arm (STMicroelectronics) STM32F070 chip, which seem to have more flash memory than the STMicroelectronics STM32P048 chip, which allows for the OLED model's dock to be updated.
- There's a dedicated chip for the LAN port.
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Oh finally, someone zoomed into the screen. RGB sub pixels confirmed.
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I'm not sure about that since the OLED model's display looks like it's using Pentile to me, albeit more modern variants, like with the Apple Watch Series 2, and the Samsung SDCA029 OLED panel for laptops, as shown in the screenshots below.
(Screenshot above courtesy of Jodast.)
RGB would have evenly sized pixels. The pixels on the OLED model's display doesn't look evenly sized to me.
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Those are all RGB, not Pentile. That arrangement is called S-Stripe by Samsung. The number or Red, Green and Blue sub-pixels are equal.I'm not sure about that since the OLED model's display looks like it's using Pentile to me, albeit more modern variants, like with the Apple Watch Series 2, and the Samsung SDCA029 OLED panel for laptops, as shown in the screenshots below.
(Screenshot above courtesy of Jodast.)
RGB would have evenly sized pixels. The pixels on the OLED model's display doesn't look evenly sized to me.
Pentile looks like this. Notice how there are only half as many red and blue pixels as there are green.
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Well, I'm personally going to be waiting for Eric Griffin to do a thorough analysis of the OLED model's display since she's really picky about displays.Those are all RGB, not Pentile. That arrangement is called S-Stripe by Samsung. The number or Red, Green and Blue sub-pixels are equal.
Pentile looks like this. Notice how there are only half as many red and blue pixels as there are green.
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That's only the microcontroller, which also exists in the Nintendo Switch's dock, albeit a different type of microcontroller.
The DisplayPort to HDMI converter chip couldn't be found since the image/video quality isn't great. So more waiting is required.
I think it's pretty much a certainty that none of the interesting firmware things that have been documented (prefer 4kdp, new syscalls) are not being used by the OLED. Actually, since the OLED display driver stuff was found back in 12.0 (IIRC), doesn't that already prove the OLED model is using the exact same firmware builds as the other two? But yeah, we all know what the firmware stuff is really going to be used for.
Here's the pic of one side of the OLED model's dock.
No upscaler chip unless its hidden on the backside. That big chip is the STM32F070 which is used as a microcontroller with an ARM cortexM0 core at 48 MHZ with 128Kbytes of Flash RAM and 16 Kbytes of SRAM.
Looking at the 2017 Switch dock teardown , it uses a slightly different STM chip the STM32P048 per iFIXit but it could be a typo as the STM website only have STM32F048 as a product listing.
That chip also uses the CortexM0 at 48 Mhz but has slightly less RAM. 32Kbytes of Flash memory and only 6 Kytes of SRAM.
Not sure what significance it is that they are using a slightly improved microcontroller chip, but it could just be what was available.
Following the traces on the board, looks like the converter chip is beneath the large metal shield surrounding the HDMI port. That's why we can't see it. Someone will have to do a more thorough teardown.
Going back to this, since I now have time to write a detailed reply: Whilst I'm sure Erica Griffin will do a great analysis as far as the nitty-gritty stuff goes (colour accuracy, white point, contrast, etc), we do not need to wait for her review to determine the sub-pixel layout as we can already see it for ourselves. No need to move goalposts.
Anyway, just to be sure that anyone who reads our discussion will not walk away confused and potentially spread misinformation, I'm going to clarify what I was saying before in a way that will hopefully be easy to understand. Not targetting this at you specifically so please don't take offence. Just trying to get everyone on the same page.
The easiest way to tell if a subpixel arrangement is RGB or Pentile is to draw the pixel border around a group of sub pixels. In this case all our screens feature square pixels so it's pretty easy to tell where the borders should go and I've drawn them in below.
Forgiving my sloppy freehand MS paint borders, we can see that the Switch OLED and the OLED Laptop with the similar subpixel arrangement each have three subpixels per pixel boundary: one red, one green and one blue. This means they are indeed true RGB matrix panels, regardless of the size and orientation of the sub pixels (I'm not entire sure why they do that but regardless that doesn't make them pentile). The important thing is that each pixel can independently display any colour the panel is capable of, regardless of what it's neighbour is doing.
By comparison we can see the pentile display only has 2 subpixels per pixel boundary, alternating between green+red and green+blue pixels. This means each pixel is missing either a red channel or a blue channel and therefore cannot recreate all colours on it's own. It must rely on it's neighbours to recreate colours that require the missing channel. This naturally results in a loss of clarity and is why pentile would be a deal breaker for the Switch OLED. Thankfully that's not the case.
Edit: In the interest of being fair, the example Samsung pentile display I used in the image above is actually an old one that they no longer use. Modern Samsung displays use what they call a diamond layout, an example of which can be seen below. While it looks funky at first glance, with the pixel boundaries drawn in you can see that we still only have 2 subpixels per pixel. So whilst this arrangement does offer better clarity on edges than the old one, it still doesn't offer the same pixel independence as RGB.
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I've heard someone speculate that the slightly improved microcontroller chip allows for the dock to be updated due to the increased amount of flash RAM and SRAM.
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Considering the firmware also allows for dock firmware updates, it's more of a matter of knowing what new features are in this new dock, aside from a built-in network adapter for LAN. Here's hoping someone could confirm some sort of upscale capability...
(With the new forums up and running, I dunno if I should stick around here considering the increasing number of Nintendo doomposting, despite all the good news)
I honestly just stick with both, and comment on whatever one has a relevant conversation I can put my two-cents in.
I dunno. I can't stand any more "shitty hardware" and "why bother with a refresh/successor/too little too late" posts. Too much negativity when it comes to anything Nintendo does, even when it's a good move.
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I wasn't intending to move goalposts, because personally, I hope I'm wrong. And it's very possible I'm very much wrong.Following the traces on the board, looks like the converter chip is beneath the large metal shield surrounding the HDMI port. That's why we can't see it. Someone will have to do a more thorough teardown.
Going back to this, since I now have time to write a detailed reply: Whilst I'm sure Erica Griffin will do a great analysis as far as the nitty-gritty stuff goes (colour accuracy, white point, contrast, etc), we do not need to wait for her review to determine the sub-pixel layout as we can already see it for ourselves. No need to move goalposts.
Anyway, just to be sure that anyone who reads our discussion will not walk away confused and potentially spread misinformation, I'm going to clarify what I was saying before in a way that will hopefully be easy to understand. Not targetting this at you specifically so please don't take offence. Just trying to get everyone on the same page.
The easiest way to tell if a subpixel arrangement is RGB or Pentile is to draw the pixel border around a group of sub pixels. In this case all our screens feature square pixels so it's pretty easy to tell where the borders should go and I've drawn them in below.
Forgiving my sloppy freehand MS paint borders, we can see that the Switch OLED and the OLED Laptop with the similar subpixel arrangement each have three subpixels per pixel boundary: one red, one green and one blue. This means they are indeed true RGB matrix panels, regardless of the size and orientation of the sub pixels (I'm not entire sure why they do that but regardless that doesn't make them pentile). The important thing is that each pixel can independently display any colour the panel is capable of, regardless of what it's neighbour is doing.
By comparison we can see the pentile display only has 2 subpixels per pixel boundary, alternating between green+red and green+blue pixels. This means each pixel is missing either a red channel or a blue channel and therefore cannot recreate all colours on it's own. It must rely on it's neighbours to recreate colours that require the missing channel. This naturally results in a loss of clarity and is why pentile would be a deal breaker for the Switch OLED. Thankfully that's not the case.
Edit: In the interest of being fair, the example Samsung pentile display I used in the image above is actually an old one that they no longer use. Modern Samsung displays use what they call a diamond layout, an example of which can be seen below. While it looks funky at first glance, with the pixel boundaries drawn in you can see that we still only have 2 subpixels per pixel. So whilst this arrangement does offer better clarity on edges than the old one, it still doesn't offer the same pixel independence as RGB.
Unfortunately, we will have to wait for a more thorough teardown since the area where the new DisplayPort to HDMI converter chip would be based on the Aula datamine rumours is covered by the heatsink (the Nintendo Switch's dock is on the left and the OLED model's dock is on the right).
Honestly, I just want to stick around to see those people getting hit with reality when the thing is pretty much confirmed.
Either that or make absolute fools of themselves XD
Personally I'm unwatching this version of the thread, one is enough for me. With Tolkir's October eshop thread being his final one, there is nothing keeping me on this site. See you on the other side...
What’s the other side? Are people moving to that discord forum thing? In reference to this thread I’m really hoping there is something more to this dock. Switch really needs so sort of performance upgrade. Even if it’s minimal just to as a good faith act for developers and consumers.
looking at the 2017 infinite teardown there is 2 macronix flash modules on the board as well, wouldn't that be where the firmware for the dock is stored?
Well it would be nice if a dock firmware update for the OLED would somehow increase performance, I don't see how though.
As to the other side, the transition was through discord but it's a new Nintendo oriented forum, you can find more details in the main Nintendo thread here.
I honestly was just hoping they allowed the chips to be ran at full speed. There is more than enough evidence out that there won’t be overheating issues. People that have modded even OG switches said they haven’t had a thermal heating issue. At this point I just don’t get what is holding them back. Especially with Mariko being in the system. It’s baffling to me. Nintendo just kills me sometimes.
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The dock's only responsible for converting the DisplayPort signal from the console to a HDMI signal, which is outputted to the TV. Either the current SoC's (Tegra X1+'s) frequencies needs to increase or the current SoC needs to be replaced with a more powerful SoC to get a performance upgrade since the SoC's responsible for pushing higher resolutions in TV mode.
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Really hope these things are pointing to a sign of them increasing clocks. Why else would there be a dock update? Like there has to be something different from this rock than the previous one.
I don't think it's a sign of anything other than future support for Dane. Maybe they could update the current switch to allow 4K YouTube or something
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My guess is adding support to newer HDMI standards (HDMI 2.0, HDMI 2.1), maybe enable full-duplex for the LAN port.
That wouldn't really be something you need an updatable dock for.
The size is a little different the vents are different. Definitely looks like it was built to house the switch better. Also looks like it would handle heat dissipation better. I was hoping this along with Tim his dock update was pointing to something better for gamers.
So what's the consensus because I've seen many topics on this the last few days?
For the next/future iterations of the Switch to be 100% backwards compatible, they need to either incorporate Maxwell architecture into the design of "Dane" or update every game(popular ones) through patches?...
Do we think Nintendo's workaround will be to include patches at the OS level from when the hardware is released if they don't end up having to Frankenstein Maxwell cores into future hardware?
For the next/future iterations of the Switch to be 100% backwards compatible, they need to either incorporate Maxwell architecture into the design of "Dane" or update every game(popular ones) through patches?...
Do we think Nintendo's workaround will be to include patches at the OS level from when the hardware is released if they don't end up having to Frankenstein Maxwell cores into future hardware?
The latter two aren't likely to happen. The most likely option is some form of hybrid emulation that will work for 99% of games
I was watching the latest Spawncast episode and MVG was going over the hurdles Nintendo will need to address in order to have 100% compatibility.
Unless they put the TX1 on the board, there won't be 100% compatibility. Emulation is the best option when comparing all the tradeoffs. Whatever game won't work would have to be patched to have support (or a new build completely).
Thanks for this detailed explanation. I feel relaxed knowing that it is using an RGB display.Following the traces on the board, looks like the converter chip is beneath the large metal shield surrounding the HDMI port. That's why we can't see it. Someone will have to do a more thorough teardown.
Going back to this, since I now have time to write a detailed reply: Whilst I'm sure Erica Griffin will do a great analysis as far as the nitty-gritty stuff goes (colour accuracy, white point, contrast, etc), we do not need to wait for her review to determine the sub-pixel layout as we can already see it for ourselves. No need to move goalposts.
Anyway, just to be sure that anyone who reads our discussion will not walk away confused and potentially spread misinformation, I'm going to clarify what I was saying before in a way that will hopefully be easy to understand. Not targetting this at you specifically so please don't take offence. Just trying to get everyone on the same page.
The easiest way to tell if a subpixel arrangement is RGB or Pentile is to draw the pixel border around a group of sub pixels. In this case all our screens feature square pixels so it's pretty easy to tell where the borders should go and I've drawn them in below.
Forgiving my sloppy freehand MS paint borders, we can see that the Switch OLED and the OLED Laptop with the similar subpixel arrangement each have three subpixels per pixel boundary: one red, one green and one blue. This means they are indeed true RGB matrix panels, regardless of the size and orientation of the sub pixels (I'm not entire sure why they do that but regardless that doesn't make them pentile). The important thing is that each pixel can independently display any colour the panel is capable of, regardless of what it's neighbour is doing.
By comparison we can see the pentile display only has 2 subpixels per pixel boundary, alternating between green+red and green+blue pixels. This means each pixel is missing either a red channel or a blue channel and therefore cannot recreate all colours on it's own. It must rely on it's neighbours to recreate colours that require the missing channel. This naturally results in a loss of clarity and is why pentile would be a deal breaker for the Switch OLED. Thankfully that's not the case.
Edit: In the interest of being fair, the example Samsung pentile display I used in the image above is actually an old one that they no longer use. Modern Samsung displays use what they call a diamond layout, an example of which can be seen below. While it looks funky at first glance, with the pixel boundaries drawn in you can see that we still only have 2 subpixels per pixel. So whilst this arrangement does offer better clarity on edges than the old one, it still doesn't offer the same pixel independence as RGB.
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It looks like the Aula datamine rumours were close to 100% accurate.
Here's what the chip label says:
RTD2172N
KBDE0H3 GL07
This seems to be a DisplayPort 1.4 to HDMI 2.0b converter chip, according to information about the RTD2172 (in Chinese).
Well if that is the case, and considering that this dock/chip would likely be used for Dane, that means no VRR unfortunately.
EDIT: Unless NVIDIA and Nintendo really want to mess with Freesync/Gsync
EDIT2: Or swap out the chip with the RTD2173 (notice the last number is 1 higher than the one in the new OLED dock), which has HDMI 2.1
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I see your tweet link has a slightly different number, but the one on the dock is exactly the one mentioned by Zachy (since deleted their account, maybe because it was like talking to a brick wall in here)
Mostly the bandwidth.
Is it possible for a cable and port rated for 2.0b to transmit a 2.1 signal? As we know a 4k30fps only requires the hdmi 2.0b bandwidth.
2.0/2.0a was 4k 60Hz SDR
2.0b was 4k 60Hz with HDR Support
2.1 has 4K 120hz support with HDR10+ support, along with VRR natively supported.
Does 2.0.b support vrr?
Edit: nevermind, somebody else answered.