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Lady Bow

Member
Nov 30, 2017
11,277
Z8KQtlK.jpg


An anonymous Tumblr account called Ask A Game Dev recently addressed the "Pokemon controversy" in response to a reader question: "Do you think the reasoning they cut the Pokemon is because of animation and graphics that a lot of people are complaining about?"

The game dev goes on to break down how much work goes into every detail of a single Pokmeon, using details and assets from a 2017 CGWorld feature on making Pokemon. There's the model, the details, the base colors, the base textures, the shadow map, normal map, shadow mask, sometimes a light map... It's an exhaustive list, and that's just building out the shape and color. According to this anonymous developer, they've spoken to several other professional game developers and they've said variations on the same thing: "Holy crap, they need to update that many? I'm surprised they didn't cut [the national pokedex] years ago!"

Don't just take it from them, though. Xavier Garcia, an artist at EA, posted in a ResetEra thread last week to comment on the idea of "future proof" assets for the many, many Pokemon.

"Updating your engine so it uses modern physics, modern shaders, better animation based solutions, different kind of lighting etc REQUIRES you to check every single old asset you are importing, thats unavoidable! Maybe the polycount needs to be changed, maybe the rigs are acting funky, maybe the textures dont work well with the new lights, maybe all new materials for every creature need to be made."

Rest of the article here: https://www.usgamer.net/articles/ga...cuts-im-surprised-they-didnt-cut-it-years-ago

I can sympathize with the fans disheartened by the cuts but I also saw this coming. Every new gen brings astronomically more work and it looks like HD development and a new engine brought Game Freak to their knees with SwSh.

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Edit: Here's the full breakdown by the dev in their blog post



Gamers are notoriously bad at gauging how much work it takes to do something in game development. There's a very good reason every professional game developer I've spoken with about the Pokemon thing has basically said variations on the same thing:

"Holy crap, they need to update that many? I'm surprised they didn't cut [the national pokedex] years ago!"

So today, we're going to take a deeper dive into the actual process of creating a pokemon. This is all taken from a [2017 CGWorld feature] on the process of pokemon creation in Pokemon X and Y.

b45b1903980d63be70bec6283bf3aabe8456c2c6.png


First, there's the model with base colors. Then you have to add in the details to the model.

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Then you have to build the base textures and a shadow map in order to give a simple-looking model more detail. Artists need to specify what parts of the pokemon are colored, what parts are shadowed, and how those shadows play on the body model. But that's not the end of it.

9e9403b12900255c2c5d5a01c88159c250e83cb7.png


They also need to build a [normal map] for the model to show detail in the model. And a shadow mask to figure out how shadow looks when cast onto the model.

711aff94128bc30836527d21ea0f9629ca1be18d.png


Some pokemon like Solgaleo emit light, which means that they need light maps to figure out how that looks and works. Others, like Lunara, require additional technology for the starfield look and tech:

1179034a4bb4171362a65695f3e12872f150d8be.png


That isn't the end of it. Shaders are used to make the pokemon look good, so many individual pokemon must have things tweaked to look right with the shaders. For example, compare these two variations on Oranguru:

72d36ec8ee61dcd9d3880ca5f42fa45341173b86.jpg


Notice how the Oranguru on the left just looks better and more defined than the one on the right? The mantle, chest tuft, hands/feet, and pelvis area have all had their normals tweaked from the first pass in order to bring out better contrast and viewability.

Also keep in mind, this is just the static model and texturing. We also have to get into animation. Each pokemon can have up to [110 different bones in its rig], and rigs are difficult to reuse in the pokemon case.

73d7adfe5a074bbde6b3cb931fe29f6b1e58aa03.png


After rigging each pokemon, we need to animate them. Some, like Gumshoos, have both a walking animation:

26863a2d3771bc2ef17e7d39c35116e63190b4c4.png


… and a running animation:

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This is all in addition to the rest of the animations in the game - each attack, damage, idle, status effected, pokemon-amie, etc. must be animated.

All 1000+ pokemon must be modeled, skinned, normal-mapped, shadered, rigged, and animated.

"But they already have these!" a fan might say. "They already built them for X and Y!"

This is basically a question of [backwards compatibility] - will the new hardware and software on the Switch be backwards compatible with the old assets from X and Y? Whenever you migrate to a new platform (for example, moving from the 3DS to the Switch), there's a very good chance that the stuff that worked on the old platform will no longer work without a ton of work on the new. It might be because the new hardware handles shaders or normal maps completely differently than others. It might be because the Switch uses different hardware for lighting calculations than the 3DS. It might be because the old assets had baked-in lighting because the 3DS couldn't do dynamic lighting, so pokemon now need a light map in order to look right on the new.

Moving to a new platform is hard. It takes a lot of work, because the new hardware never does all (or even most) things the same way as the old hardware, which means that a lot of massaging, refactoring, and fixing has to take place in order to bring the old stuff in to work on the new. When you're talking about something on a per-pokemon basis, that becomes an exponential growth problem.

The biggest issue here isn't that these tasks are insurmountable, but the fact that there are potentially over a thousand pokemon models that need to be updated for each task. That's a multiplicative scale that can rapidly go off the charts in terms of scope. If they are planning to add just one single new type of animation (like… for example, "sad") to the pokemon's suite, that's hundreds of new animations that need to be made. In the move to the Switch, assets for any single one of these steps for pokemon creation may have been compromised and had to be redone, potentially affecting hundreds of different pokemon.

"Just hire more people!" I hear the people shout."

1bdb2bffab0e5637f7ea58431feec7b8f37dbf8a.gif


Pokemon has a budget. They have a sales estimate and a revenue estimate, and the budget is based on that. [Hiring people takes time and costs money], which balloons that budget. Going over budget is a really bad idea - in order to keep their shareholders happy, they need to earn money and not lose it. That's the nature of the beast.

There is no way that they made a decision like this lightly. They looked at the estimates for the amount of work needed to bring the national to the game and it did not fit within the budget or schedule they were allotted. They looked at the number of players who actively engage with the entire national pokedex. Rather than cut other, higher priority features, they made the decision to be selective in what pokemon they do have the schedule and budget for. Maybe they made the wrong choice, but I have yet to see a single professional game dev say "they should have committed to it". Most of the devs I've spoken to say that this situation was going to be inevitable at some point, because Game Freak can't stop adding new pokemon to the franchise. So, since they can't stop adding pokemon to the world and they can't support all of the pokemon forever, they decided to stop supporting all of the pokemon forever and be selective as to which are available.

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Anonymous asked:

Q. Ok but the models for the older pokemon in the Switch games are literally the old X & Y models. People that ripped the models from the Let's Go games commented that they were the exact same as the Sun & Moon and, thus, X & Y ones, only with better textures. The Gyrados shown in the SwSh trailer, for instance, displays the exact same distortion in its whiskers that the handheld one has.
A. From the [original post]:
"Gamers are notoriously bad at gauging how much work it takes to do something in game development."
"… only with better textures" you say. So you admit they improved the textures? Better textures means that Gyarados also needed new normal maps, new shadow maps, shadow mask, shader work, etc..


And guess what? If Gyarados needed these, how many other pokemon do you think also need new textures, shadow maps, normal maps, etc.? Here's a quick answer: ALL OF THEM.
Few things in game dev scare me as much as exponentially scaling scope. Seriously.


askagamedev.tumblr.com

“Holy crap, they need to update that many? I’m surprised they didn’t cut [the national pokedex] years ago!”

what do you think about the Pokemon Sword and Shield controversy? from the e3 direct, youtube at the point in 25:00 to the end and the interviews usgamer and the famitsu article translations do you...
 
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Zalman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,896
It was going to happen eventually. Any other company would have done the same.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
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Oct 25, 2017
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Yea, the cut was gonna happen sooner or later. Better to rip the bandaid off now
 

FiXalaS

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Oct 27, 2017
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Kuwait.
For me personally, the collecting aspect become tiring and old when we reached 700 monsters. 1k is such a huge amount to have in one game

I also am surprised they did it now, I thought it would start with Black and White.
 

Deleted member 249

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Oct 25, 2017
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I mean it was always going to happen, I am more surprised at them maintaining the full roster for as long as they did.
The bitchiness and whininess of the Pokemon community is juvenile and embarrassing, and I hope the final games are actually great so that this toxicity ends once and for all.
 

Aleh

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Oct 27, 2017
16,293
But this YouTuber said he can make a model in an hour, GameFreak is just lazy.
 

udivision

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Oct 25, 2017
4,031
If you can't increase dev time and want to keep your budget in check, some third thing has to be sacrificed. This is what was chosen.
 

Natiko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,263
Yeah, can't blame them with all those Pokemon needing updates. It's not like they make fuck tons of money off of iterative updates and people double (and triple) dipping or anything. What can you do when you're so restricted financially other than cut one of the primary reasons some people play your game series?
 

Deleted member 32018

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I think what has been the main issue here is communication. Cutting Pokemon was going to cause chaos whatever they did but it may not have been to this extent if they went more in-depth into the reasoning behind it.
 

DrArchon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,485
Yeah, this was inevitable, but I still wish we had some more obvious improvements for people to look at and go "OK, if we're getting that then I'm fine with the NationalDex being cut."

There's absolutely a ton of improvements under the hood, but most people on the internet won't know about or understand them.
 

IzzyRX

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
5,816
I'm expecting release/dataming to judge it.
I guess most of the fanbase is tired of this already, even hating it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,394
We used to joke about them not being able to just keep adding Pokemon
I wasn't surprised at all when they announced the cut
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 25, 2017
29,903
Dexit is not a failure of development, but a failure of marketing. The controversy would have never existed if the company had done a better job of managing fan expectations and telegraphing that this was eventually going to happen rather than pulling the rug out from under them at the last moment with no warning
 

Adventureracing

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Nov 7, 2017
8,027
I've been saying for some time that I don't really want or need so many if any new Pokémon each gen. I've heard time and again that new Pokémon games wouldn't sell very much as a result (despite remakes and 3rd versions consistently selling ludicrous amounts). I'm fine with them cutting back on the total number of Pokémon. I would just like to see the game make a significant jump graphically as a result.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,617
bro what textures lmao
Apparently their "the 3DS games run poorly because the Pokémon models are future proofed" models had bad textures that looked awful when dynamaxed. I guess a solution would be to choose another gimmick rather than scaling the Pokémon 10x.

This is such a weird story because I totally get it; I had suggested they did a reboot with a lot fewer Pokémon because it's pretty hard to balance and keep adding 50-100 new Pokémon per game.

I guess part of the issue is that the models and the rest of the game (that they have decided to show off so far) don't look like how the sacrifices suggest.

But I had such low expectations of GF that an open world segment with a free camera is much more than I thought they'd do, even if it's somewhat primitive, that I'm not upset at the culling of Pokémon.
There's a lot of (literal) garbage Pokémon in any case.
 

Salamiaddict

Member
May 15, 2018
463
Northern Germany
I am super on the fence about this.
On the one hand, I totally understand the cuts and I don't even mind them AT ALL. I just need new creatures, a new region and I'm satisfied.
BUT... on the other hand I think: They are Gamefreak and this is what they do. They make Pokémon games. They should take one more year to bring everything into their new game!
In other words, I feel like: Yeah, it is a lot of work, I understand, but isn't that their job?
 

Greywaren

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Jul 16, 2019
9,900
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This is what I've been saying ever since they announced it. It was going to happen eventually. The amount of work that goes into these games is ridiculous, and having so many Pokémon means you have less time and resources for the rest of the game.

I agree that the excuses they gave are a bit sketchy and they probably could have handled the situation better, but this was unavoidable.
 

RPG_Fanatic

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Oct 25, 2017
3,623
This doesn't surprise me at all. The development process is alot more complex then it looks from the outside.
 

AzureFlame

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Oct 30, 2017
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This is what I've been saying ever since they announced it. It was going to happen eventually. The amount of work that goes into these games is ridiculous, and having so many Pokémon means you have less time and resources for the rest of the game.

I agree that the excuses they gave are a bit sketchy and they probably could have handled the situation better, but this was unavoidable.

Yeah sure but the end results aren't impressive still, i think they can do way better if they want to :P, I'm not buying the excuses they are giving us.
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
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May 22, 2018
18,879
The core of the problem is that Dexit is inexplicably going to be their policy going forward.

Cutting Pokemon in Sword and Shield because they had to touch up old models and animations? It sucks, but fine, I get it. Cutting Pokemon in future games even when all of the models and animations should be done by then? Yeah no, that's fucking bullshit.

I'm just waiting for the inevitable Diamond and Pearl remakes to exclude a bunch of Pokemon in the Galar dex just because. I'm sure its gonna happen.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
Sorry they don't get a pass on this. It feels like gamefreaks doesn't want to put the work in to give the games substantial upgrades and they are cutting pokemon. it's hard to have faith in them at all.

I mean in what way is it not impressive, lol
Sword and Shield just do not look that impressive. It looks mediocre at best.
 

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
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Oct 25, 2017
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Dexit is not a failure of development, but a failure of marketing. The controversy would have never existed if the company had done a better job of managing fan expectations and telegraphing that this was eventually going to happen rather than pulling the rug out from under them at the last moment with no warning

I wish they'd discussed it in a Direct instead of an off-hand comment at E3. Sakurai was been pretty earnest and straightforward with things cut from Super Smash Bros Ultimate, for example. Smash is another series where people expect certain kinds of features to be present in every game but Sakurai and team have been open with the fact the series will have to prioritize features as it continues to grow.

I don't know if that kind of presentation with consumers would have made a huge difference to everyone, but I know I would have appreciated it.
 

Deleted member 2793

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The most revisionist defense is the idea that "this was always going to happen" when people never brought up it before. GF has Creatures, a different studio, making the models in HD since the 3DS and they were supposed to be future proof, so yeah, no I don't buy it. No one is asking for brand new models every game and they should have all these ready for the multiple projects they make over the years considering how Pokémon is basically an annual franchise and with multiple spin-offs like Go that can use the models.

I don't think they're incompetent like most critics of this, but they have some awful priorities in what is important for this series. Pokémon themselves should be above "minigames" that add new animations and etc.
 

Deleted member 32018

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It feels like gamefreaks doesn't want to put the work in to give the games substantial upgrades and they are cutting pokemon.

Well done in finding a long-winded way of calling Game Freak lazy so you don't get banned.

I wish they'd discussed it in a Direct instead of an off-hand comment at E3.

They were obviously scared by how the community was going to react but yeah, instead they made it worse.
 

Greywaren

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Jul 16, 2019
9,900
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Yeah sure but the end results aren't impressive still, i think they can do way better if they want to :P, I'm not buying the excuses they are giving us.

To be honest, I think what we've seen so far, which is just a fraction of what the full game will be, looks pretty great. Sure, there are some minor things that could improve, but let's not forget this is still an unfinished game.
 

AzureFlame

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Oct 30, 2017
4,253
Kuwait
To be honest, I think what we've seen so far, which is just a fraction of what the full game will be, looks pretty great. Sure, there are some minor things that could improve, but let's not forget this is still an unfinished game.

Well i hope the final product will be something that is impressive especially for a switch game.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
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Mar 22, 2018
15,180
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The thing is I don't think people would have minded if the statement was "we only got 500 done for this game, but we'll keep these assets and get the next 500 in the next gen of games, SMT-style"

It was the "lol, kiss your living dexs goodbye nerds" response that people are mad about.
 

Arthoneceron

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Oct 27, 2017
3,024
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Sometimes I wonder if the things would be different if Pokemon was in the hands of Disney.

Apart of the disaster that they did with Star Wars, they generally know the size and the impact of their franchises.
 

DrArchon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,485
I wish they'd discussed it in a Direct instead of an off-hand comment at E3. Sakurai was been pretty earnest and straightforward with things cut from Super Smash Bros Ultimate, for example. Smash is another series where people expect certain kinds of features to be present in every game but Sakurai and team have been open with the fact the series will have to prioritize features as it continues to grow.

I don't know if that kind of presentation with consumers would have made a huge difference to everyone, but I know I would have appreciated it.
Yeah, something akin to the big Smash blowout at E3 '18 would've done wonders.

Sakurai was pretty upfront that there wouldn't be that many new characters or stages, but countered that with Everyone's Here. Naturally, GameFreak should've done the opposite. Everyone's not here, but here's a ton of new characters/stages.

Instead they marketed SwSh like every other Pokemon game and said "btw your favorite might not be here."
 

AllChan7

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Apr 30, 2019
3,670
It was gonna happen eventually so the news didn't shock me as much as most. Idk why people thought they could keep doing this forever. But hey, if it leads to better work hours for their staff or a better game, I can understand it. You'd think a community who has seen how bad crunch culture can be would be more understanding of this
 

1000% H

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,639
Before making my post I double checked the posted article and the other article linked in it and I still didn't see them say it. I see them talk about the number of Pokemon causing an issue in terms of animation and game balance, two things they have absolutely not addressed in any of their marketing outside of those statements.
 

rochellepaws

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,451
Ireland
Dexit is not a failure of development, but a failure of marketing. The controversy would have never existed if the company had done a better job of managing fan expectations and telegraphing that this was eventually going to happen rather than pulling the rug out from under them at the last moment with no warning
Announcing Pokemon Home the week before the bad news along with lines such as "Pokemon exist beyond hardware and have become irreplaceable to the trainers" wasn't just pulling the rug without warning, it was a recent reassurance the practice would continue. It seemed like there were miscommunications between development and management for something like that to even happen rather than it just being an expectation management issue for marketing.

It's unbelievable watching this in hindsight.
 

Deleted member 2791

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You're trying to use common sense and logic to a group of haters going in circles and throwing out of the window any reasonable arguments to justify their movement.

Everyone with half a brain understands why the temporary cut had to happen sooner or later.
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
I'm no game developer or company but I've practiced rigging humanoid 3D models in Blender and... yeah even something like 10 bones is already a huge pain in the ass for one model. 100 for each, all of them having vastly different rigging structures sounds like an absolute nightmare.

I guess this is a consequence of using an updated engine to bring visuals (somewhat) up to par for an HD release.