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Game Difficulty: How Hard is too hard?
- Thread starter TheAndyMan
- Start date
two words: Darkest Dungeon
not every game is about fun, when you try to overcome a challenge surely the fun factor takes a backseat. i don´t even know where this "games have to be fun!" stuff comes from, Reggie from Nintendo? i played so many games and often it were great experiences with a low fun factor...
not every game is about fun, when you try to overcome a challenge surely the fun factor takes a backseat. i don´t even know where this "games have to be fun!" stuff comes from, Reggie from Nintendo? i played so many games and often it were great experiences with a low fun factor...
When it starts to feel like I need to be exploiting things instead of learning and progressing. Things like AI reading inputs in fighters. Master Ninja and incendiary shurikens from every enemy in NG2.
It really has nothing to do with number or frequency of deaths. Super Meat Boy has a reputation for being ultra hard because you die several times a minute, when in reality deaths are not even a slap on the wrist (instant restart, infinite lives) and just part of the learning process. SMB does have some really hard post-game parts, but the main game is easier to complete than most traditional platformers from the 80s and 90s.
To measure a game's difficulty, even theoretically, you would need to come up with some metric like "game time that takes an average gamer to overcome the average obstacle (boss, stage, etc.), from encountering it to beating it".
To measure a game's difficulty, even theoretically, you would need to come up with some metric like "game time that takes an average gamer to overcome the average obstacle (boss, stage, etc.), from encountering it to beating it".
Being stuck in a section for more than an hour is just more of a waste of time for me when I have an insane backlog. Its why I put down Sekiro and NG Black and moved on, maybe I'll come back to them, maybe not but at least I gave them a shot and honestly I'm happy with that.
I honestly don't mind the existence of difficult games like the Souls, but I'm always on the side of more options to make them easier IF it is the wish of the developers.
I honestly don't mind the existence of difficult games like the Souls, but I'm always on the side of more options to make them easier IF it is the wish of the developers.
Difficulty is a weird term, when enemies damage out put melts you in seconds before you can react, that's not difficulty to me.
I have finished all the Souls Games and never thought " oof hoo boy this game is haaaard" they're challenging and encourages to develop your skills and way of thinking.
I never got past Lady Butterfly in Sekiro, not because I deemed it to hard but because it still had a currency you had to farm to refill your tools, same idea as the blood vials in Blood Borne. When I get crushed by some boss I need to go back in right away, not farm spirits for my tools.
I have finished all the Souls Games and never thought " oof hoo boy this game is haaaard" they're challenging and encourages to develop your skills and way of thinking.
I never got past Lady Butterfly in Sekiro, not because I deemed it to hard but because it still had a currency you had to farm to refill your tools, same idea as the blood vials in Blood Borne. When I get crushed by some boss I need to go back in right away, not farm spirits for my tools.
Oh I did and *sigh* I still got stuck somewhere during the end game where you fight previous bosses. It's okay though I still enjoyed the game and I'm greatfull for that mode.
I want to beat it on the first attempt but only just barely.
I thought Last of Us was just about perfect in this regard on normal, but subsequent playthroughs on the same difficulty level were way too easy.
Also, difficulty can just be a broad term that doesnt really tell you much. Is the game hard because its being obtuse and doesnt provide you the info you need to progress? Or is it hard in that you need to experiment a bit that leads to deaths but you have a the gist of what needs to be done? Or was the game easy up to a point and all the sudden there was a ridiculous difficulty spike? or is there some BS mechanic that doesnt work well that you need to rely on to progress?
I thought Last of Us was just about perfect in this regard on normal, but subsequent playthroughs on the same difficulty level were way too easy.
Also, difficulty can just be a broad term that doesnt really tell you much. Is the game hard because its being obtuse and doesnt provide you the info you need to progress? Or is it hard in that you need to experiment a bit that leads to deaths but you have a the gist of what needs to be done? Or was the game easy up to a point and all the sudden there was a ridiculous difficulty spike? or is there some BS mechanic that doesnt work well that you need to rely on to progress?
To me, too hard is when perfection is demanded for progression. This usually isn't the case except like highest difficulty settings or very specific and optional challenge encounters where it's generally fine. Like say you die if you get hit once, you lose a track if you don't get the perfect times or you don't get the correct score/win condition if you don't play perfectly.
But these aren't for progression, they are for game mastery and its valid to demand perfection for game mastery requirements. An example of a progression behind too hard is something like Assassins Creed Odyssey. This is generally an easy game unless you didn't do a few extra optional quests and end up 4-5 levels below the zone levels. Suddenly the games difficulty shoots up to insane levels where you get off screen one shorted by arrows or get killed by bad hit boxes which the game has a ton of. And the enemy take a ton of damage to kill. The only way to progress is through perfect play as any hit leads into death or you grind side areas to get your level high enough.
Stuff that I find to be unfairly hard:
*Bad hitboxes.
*High damage attacks with too little wind up or not a good enough animated telegraph.
*Bad sound design and hit detection so it's hard to tell when hits landed and how effective they were.
*Off screen high sources of damage.
*Number inflation (enemies have absurdly high damage and HP relative to your character)
But these aren't for progression, they are for game mastery and its valid to demand perfection for game mastery requirements. An example of a progression behind too hard is something like Assassins Creed Odyssey. This is generally an easy game unless you didn't do a few extra optional quests and end up 4-5 levels below the zone levels. Suddenly the games difficulty shoots up to insane levels where you get off screen one shorted by arrows or get killed by bad hit boxes which the game has a ton of. And the enemy take a ton of damage to kill. The only way to progress is through perfect play as any hit leads into death or you grind side areas to get your level high enough.
Stuff that I find to be unfairly hard:
*Bad hitboxes.
*High damage attacks with too little wind up or not a good enough animated telegraph.
*Bad sound design and hit detection so it's hard to tell when hits landed and how effective they were.
*Off screen high sources of damage.
*Number inflation (enemies have absurdly high damage and HP relative to your character)
I'm fine with any video game's difficulty, as long as it's consistent.
To put it another way, I hate games that are almost entirely easy, but become brutal at the final boss.
The most recent example that I've experienced is from the just-released beatemup Stay Cool, Kobayashi-san!: A River City Ransom Story.
I practically sleepwalked through most of the game. None of the bosses put up much of a fight.
The final boss however is complete BS.
He has a homing projectile that easily does 200+ damage. It's invincible on start-up, you have a less than a second to react to it, and the only way to avoid it is by side-stepping. Also, it destroys your AI-controlled team-mate.This is how I define something that's "Too Hard". The entire rest of the game didn't adequately prepare me for this fight. I coasted through everything else, only to run into a brick wall. After figuring out how to strengthen my characters, I managed to beat the bastard. Of course, now that I'm stronger, the rest of the game puts up even less of a fight.
Inconsistent difficulty kills games IMO. Make an easy game that gradually becomes more difficult, or make a difficult game that gradually becomes even more difficult.
To put it another way, I hate games that are almost entirely easy, but become brutal at the final boss.
The most recent example that I've experienced is from the just-released beatemup Stay Cool, Kobayashi-san!: A River City Ransom Story.
I practically sleepwalked through most of the game. None of the bosses put up much of a fight.
The final boss however is complete BS.
He has a homing projectile that easily does 200+ damage. It's invincible on start-up, you have a less than a second to react to it, and the only way to avoid it is by side-stepping. Also, it destroys your AI-controlled team-mate.This is how I define something that's "Too Hard". The entire rest of the game didn't adequately prepare me for this fight. I coasted through everything else, only to run into a brick wall. After figuring out how to strengthen my characters, I managed to beat the bastard. Of course, now that I'm stronger, the rest of the game puts up even less of a fight.
Inconsistent difficulty kills games IMO. Make an easy game that gradually becomes more difficult, or make a difficult game that gradually becomes even more difficult.
For me, a game needs a difficulty curve to be enjoyable. If it's all a breeze, then I finish it and move on without another thought (or even become bored with it before finishing it).
It doesn't need to be crazy hard 100% of the time, but it's those moments where I run into a roadblock, and have to re-evaluate the situation and develop new strategies. It's exciting when I get positive results, and very satisfying when I overcome the challenge, creating lasting memories.
The first time I encountered the yellow devil in Mega Man, he rocked my socks. After enough attempts I realized there was a repeating pattern, and then it was just a matter of nailing the execution. After beating him, subsequent play-throughs were rather easy with the knowledge I gained, but still engaging knowing that if I got sloppy he'd get the win.
That said, it has to be a fair challenge - if the game is just broken, or skewed in a fashion to incentivize the use of microtransactions, then I'm out after realizing it.
If the challenge is indeed fair and just requires better strategies or expert execution, then I can keep at it for hours/ days/ weeks. I spent countless nights on Champion's Road in Super Mario 3D World when it first came out on the Wii U. It was so difficult, but I knew that I could do it. The pay off when I did made completing the game all the more fulfilling.
It doesn't need to be crazy hard 100% of the time, but it's those moments where I run into a roadblock, and have to re-evaluate the situation and develop new strategies. It's exciting when I get positive results, and very satisfying when I overcome the challenge, creating lasting memories.
The first time I encountered the yellow devil in Mega Man, he rocked my socks. After enough attempts I realized there was a repeating pattern, and then it was just a matter of nailing the execution. After beating him, subsequent play-throughs were rather easy with the knowledge I gained, but still engaging knowing that if I got sloppy he'd get the win.
That said, it has to be a fair challenge - if the game is just broken, or skewed in a fashion to incentivize the use of microtransactions, then I'm out after realizing it.
If the challenge is indeed fair and just requires better strategies or expert execution, then I can keep at it for hours/ days/ weeks. I spent countless nights on Champion's Road in Super Mario 3D World when it first came out on the Wii U. It was so difficult, but I knew that I could do it. The pay off when I did made completing the game all the more fulfilling.
I only consider something too hard if it's really fucking cheesy shit like Call of Duty on veteran. Hitscan stuff that takes luck instead of skill I have very little patience for.
a) When it's out of place compared to the rest of the game. E.g. Hollow Knight's White Palace, the game was a challenging but otherwise manageable Metroidvania until the very end where now it's Super Meat Boy? Nah fuck you game. Also the Ori escape sequence or Bed of Chaos. I also hate random spikes, like the last boss in Bound by Flame.
b) When I can't beat it. That's not the game's fault, though (unlike point a), that's me being bad and that's OK. I am incapable of progressing into Cuphead, and I can't beat Nightmare King Grimm. So be it.
b) When I can't beat it. That's not the game's fault, though (unlike point a), that's me being bad and that's OK. I am incapable of progressing into Cuphead, and I can't beat Nightmare King Grimm. So be it.
Well shit xD
Yeah, easily the worst part of Hollow Knight. The ratio of control precision required : punishment (length of walk back) could be way off at times.
When challenge becomes tedium. For me, that is usually between an hour and a few hours on the same part. That is what kills most hard games for me. FOMO has made me try to force myself to like games like Bloodborne, but I have learned to live with my opinion that they are boring tedium and not for me.
A game is too hard for me when I've been stuck so long that I've transitioned from feeling challenged to feeling frustrated and discouraged.
By that point I feel like I physically can't execute at whatever level of skill it's asking me to in order to progress. I start to feel like the difficulty is "cheap" and the reasons I'm failing are "bullshit" instead of "I messed up there, I need to do X Y Z differently."
By that point I feel like I physically can't execute at whatever level of skill it's asking me to in order to progress. I start to feel like the difficulty is "cheap" and the reasons I'm failing are "bullshit" instead of "I messed up there, I need to do X Y Z differently."
I picked other. You can make a game as challenging as you want as long as the game and mechanics are normally fair .
When the games difficulty is created by bad mechanics though, that is when a game becomes "to hard" in my book. One that comes to mind which I eventually beat was Castlevania 3 on the NES. The stairs created an artificial difficulty as the buttons needed to go up or down them countered other actions in the game and would lead to you falling through the stairs a lot . You didn't warp to stairs automatically like you do in the next game on the SNES and the NES controller had a lot of actions for only 2 buttons and the dpad. Enemy placements were typically right at the exit of stairs leading to conflicting input as well.
When the games difficulty is created by bad mechanics though, that is when a game becomes "to hard" in my book. One that comes to mind which I eventually beat was Castlevania 3 on the NES. The stairs created an artificial difficulty as the buttons needed to go up or down them countered other actions in the game and would lead to you falling through the stairs a lot . You didn't warp to stairs automatically like you do in the next game on the SNES and the NES controller had a lot of actions for only 2 buttons and the dpad. Enemy placements were typically right at the exit of stairs leading to conflicting input as well.
Same. Personally I'm just not a fan of difficult games, especially with limited time for gaming. I'd rather be enjoying myself lol
It's this. Other than a few Nioh bosses in WOTW difficulty, I haven't found many games to be that difficult or cheesey.
It really depends on the game, how much I'm enjoying it, and what determines why the game is so difficult in the first place.
For example, I've been playing Master Spy off and on recently and it's been one of the most difficult experiences I've had in a really, really long time. That said, it's also mercifully short and very fair to the player even though I'm dying 200 times per level so I'm inclined to chip away at it regardless to see the gorgeous cutscenes or more of the agonizing situations the developer has come up with.
Meanwhile something like Path of the Damned in Tyranny isn't really all that difficult, but it's so tedious and it highlights the weaknesses of the combat system to the extent that I have absolutely no patience for it whatsoever, even if I'm not experiencing a failstate nearly as often because there's no joy in the experience.
For example, I've been playing Master Spy off and on recently and it's been one of the most difficult experiences I've had in a really, really long time. That said, it's also mercifully short and very fair to the player even though I'm dying 200 times per level so I'm inclined to chip away at it regardless to see the gorgeous cutscenes or more of the agonizing situations the developer has come up with.
Meanwhile something like Path of the Damned in Tyranny isn't really all that difficult, but it's so tedious and it highlights the weaknesses of the combat system to the extent that I have absolutely no patience for it whatsoever, even if I'm not experiencing a failstate nearly as often because there's no joy in the experience.
I don't think I'd measure in terms of death. Any game where the main challenge comes from the enemies having a ton of health, and you having fucking none and you have to constantly be on defense it to much. Kind of like Call of Duty games on Veteran.
too hard is when its cheap and the only way to beat it is insane levels of trial and error.
A lot of super old games where like this due to them not wanting you to rent the game, beat it and return it asap...but rather requiring multiple rentals at best.
Nowadays I don't think anything reaches that level.
A lot of super old games where like this due to them not wanting you to rent the game, beat it and return it asap...but rather requiring multiple rentals at best.
Nowadays I don't think anything reaches that level.
Nothing is too hard so long as reytring it is quick and easy. F-Zero GX was the hardest thing I've beaten in terms of what was required of me, but something like Bloodborne was "too hard" for me because I disliked having to walk my ass back to the boss after I got bodied, even though most of the bosses in Bloodborne are easier than the first mission in F-Zero on hardest difficulty.
EDIT: Actually I take it back. I've been watching Maximillian Dood play some old SNK games. Whatever that bullshit it, that's too hard.
EDIT: Actually I take it back. I've been watching Maximillian Dood play some old SNK games. Whatever that bullshit it, that's too hard.
I've been stuck on the darker side of the moon in Odessey for more than 6 hours, I still try to beat it every once in a while but it's too hard. :(
It sort of depends on the genre, but in general I'd say: when you aren't allowed to make any mistakes.
Cliché example by now, but the Soulsborne games are hard, and you can spend hours upon hours trying to beat one boss. But everytime you die, it isn't because you made one mistake and you got punished. It's because you made several mistakes. Could have been in quick succession or over a longer period of time. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that the game always gives you a chance to recover.
Cliché example by now, but the Soulsborne games are hard, and you can spend hours upon hours trying to beat one boss. But everytime you die, it isn't because you made one mistake and you got punished. It's because you made several mistakes. Could have been in quick succession or over a longer period of time. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that the game always gives you a chance to recover.
"Sekiro" is one of the few recent too hard games. There is very little puzzling to the fights. You memorize the patterns, and then you need to match those patterns to near perfection for around 5 mins of a boss fight. The level of perfection required is just straight up not fun. In DS and Bloodborne the puzzle aspect of "figuring out" the boss takes up a majority of your time with the boss and then some additional time to actual defeat the boss. Since Sekiro has such a small "figuring out" period comparatively all you are left with needing to meet a level of perfection that to me was too much and just not fun.
Basically, make the puzzle hard, not the execution of the puzzle excruciatingly difficult. Obviously its great to set a high skill level bar to actually pull off the answer, but if youve already figured out what you need to do, you shouldnt be beating your head against a brick wall needing to perfect the answer.
EDIT: And that is why The Witness is the best game ever made.
Basically, make the puzzle hard, not the execution of the puzzle excruciatingly difficult. Obviously its great to set a high skill level bar to actually pull off the answer, but if youve already figured out what you need to do, you shouldnt be beating your head against a brick wall needing to perfect the answer.
EDIT: And that is why The Witness is the best game ever made.
Number of deaths doesn't equal to difficulty.
I died to the ''Right Hand'' boss in RE4 like 10 times on my first playthrough because I didn't know you can freeze him with liquid nitrogen tanks.
Once I discovered that I beat him in one try. The boss isn't ''too hard'', I'm just fucking stupid.
Some people died to Capra Demon (Dark Souls) 20+ times not knowing that they can use the stairs to their advantage.
Otherwise It would've been 5+ deaths instead of 20+ deaths
Of course everything is too hard if you only take it at face value or first impression,
it's easy to say ''wow I died this is bullshit and unfair'' until you realize ''wait I can just do this...this isn't hard at all''
It's a shame that some people lose their temperament way too soon and choose to drop the game and stuck in the ''bullshit and unfair'' phase forever.
Anyway, my point is that you can't measure difficulty with deaths. It's about as inaccurate as measuring the length of the game with the size of the map.
I died to the ''Right Hand'' boss in RE4 like 10 times on my first playthrough because I didn't know you can freeze him with liquid nitrogen tanks.
Once I discovered that I beat him in one try. The boss isn't ''too hard'', I'm just fucking stupid.
Some people died to Capra Demon (Dark Souls) 20+ times not knowing that they can use the stairs to their advantage.
Otherwise It would've been 5+ deaths instead of 20+ deaths
Of course everything is too hard if you only take it at face value or first impression,
it's easy to say ''wow I died this is bullshit and unfair'' until you realize ''wait I can just do this...this isn't hard at all''
It's a shame that some people lose their temperament way too soon and choose to drop the game and stuck in the ''bullshit and unfair'' phase forever.
Anyway, my point is that you can't measure difficulty with deaths. It's about as inaccurate as measuring the length of the game with the size of the map.
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I'd generally consider something hard if I'm dying a lot at it. If I spend multiple hours on a single boss or section, then it's more than just hard, it's really fucking brutal.
I don't think there's any such thing as "too hard" though. Too hard is pretty much the point at which something is so hard the player gives up, but that point is gonna be different for everyone. Me personally I've happily spent several hours on single bosses and enjoyed them, so I guess my threshold for what is "too hard" is pretty high.
I don't think there's any such thing as "too hard" though. Too hard is pretty much the point at which something is so hard the player gives up, but that point is gonna be different for everyone. Me personally I've happily spent several hours on single bosses and enjoyed them, so I guess my threshold for what is "too hard" is pretty high.
I've cheesed my way through Gears 4 and Gears 5 up until the Matriarch fight. I have died more than once due to buggy ice breaking failure, or generally getting crushed/run over despite it running away from my character or not running at all. Gave it a few attempts. No longer care about the franchise. Uninstalled.
Those loading screens were more brutal than the monster.
Those loading screens were more brutal than the monster.
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