Game of Thrones Mafia - We're All Bastards Here

[Natiko]

Nah, Mods should use their right to modkill when they see fit. There are no rules in place, it has always been a situation based decision so far, maybe more so before the posting requirement was implemented. This community has a huge aversion to modkills, this is what needs to be discussed.

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Because modkilling is lame as shit. Forcing town into an unexpected mylo doesn't feel good. Modkilling a significant number of players due to infractions doesn't feel good. I suffered through games with plenty of no shows, even before the minimum was in effect and everyone got like three strikes or whatever it was. I didn't expect the game runner to modkill players just to help me avoid voting them out. The root of the problem is players not playing the game they agreed to be in, not how we handle their absence.

 

[Sawneeks]

I don't disagree, as I said before though it can't be a one size fits all rule or the day will come when a game is ended due to a modkill which is the lamest possible outcome.

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Nah, Mods should use their right to modkill when they see fit. There are no rules in place, it has always been a situation based decision so far, maybe more so before the posting requirement was implemented. This community has a huge aversion to modkills, this is what needs to be discussed.

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Currently the only rule we have is:

Activity and Deadlines

9. If you do not post in this thread at least ten posts per Day Phase period without prior permission, you will be sent a warning via PM. If you fail to meet the ten posts per Day Phase minimum again after receiving a warning you will be Replaced and removed from the game.

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When it came down to replacing that Role it was deciding to pick between two bad spots. Either Modkill it and force Town into a sooner Mylo or keep the Role and have another Replacement in with little history. Both decisions would've been railed against and both have their Pros and Cons but I stand by Nat and what he picked for this. There really wasn't an easy pick considering it was 2 Players in a row making the Role essentially useless.

Modkills....are always touchy. There are some Gamerunners that are fine with using them and then there are others who don't want to use it no matter what unless they have to. Outside of the serious circumstances (like posting a Role PM or cheating) I'm not really for having Modkills be a highly enforced rule? I think the less outside intervention from a Gamerunner the better but I'd love to hear more opinions on this. :x

 

[Ketkat]

Because modkilling is lame as shit. Forcing town into an unexpected mylo doesn't feel good. Modkilling a significant number of players due to infractions doesn't feel good. I suffered through games with plenty of no shows, even before the minimum was in effect and everyone got like three strikes or whatever it was. I didn't expect the game runner to modkill players just to help me avoid voting them out. The root of the problem is players not playing the game they agreed to be in, not how we handle their absence.

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The root of the problem is really both. It doesn't feel good to have to sit through a game with that level of hostility and it doesn't feel good to have people just disappear on the thread entirely without notice either. The hostility really didn't go down despite warnings in the thread, and I'm not really sure why we all feel like we should have to suffer through empty slots for that long just because it may have been worst in the past. I don't know if setting a hard rule is really the right call, but I'm really not sure what the point of letting things like that drag down the game really is.

 

[Pedro]

hi hi

just letting yall know that all the boards on OM are open right now, including the spec chat

 

[Natiko]

The root of the problem is really both. It doesn't feel good to have to sit through a game with that level of hostility and it doesn't feel good to have people just disappear on the thread entirely without notice either. The hostility really didn't go down despite warnings in the thread, and I'm not really sure why we all feel like we should have to suffer through empty slots for that long just because it may have been worst in the past. I don't know if setting a hard rule is really the right call, but I'm really not sure what the point of letting things like that drag down the game really is.

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The alternative was to cancel the game. If we modkilled the inactives and the hostile players we may as well have just ended the game due to how huge of an impact it would have. I disagree in principle as well, both of these go back to the players. If you agree to play, then play. When playing, don't be a jerk. It shouldn't be as hard as it was made to look at times in this game.

 

[Sawneeks]

We are making this Announcement in both games as a particular set of rules were broken. This does not mean it happened in one game over the other or in both, this is an update so everyone is fully aware of the rules.

1. All site-wide rules are also applicable here. Please do not tarnish this community.
2. Unless your Role PM explicitly allows you to do otherwise, discussion about this game is strictly confined to this thread.
5. Do not refer to or discuss other player's activity in other forum threads or life in general beyond the game. Please do not use this information for in-game purposes.
7. Please be nice to your fellow players. Mafia can be a tense experience, and occasionally aggressive play is useful, but remember this is game and that everyone should have fun. Repeated aggressive action will be warned by a Mod and if that is ignored may result in a Modkill or a Replacement Player being sought.

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1. Discussion of a Player's activity or perceived activity via PM with that Player whether or not you are currently in that game is never allowed. Personal insults, play critique, and/or accusations sent to any active Player is never okay as it can not only affect the game but can also affect that Player.
If you wish to have a civil discussion with an individual about a game that's fine. Please refrain from doing so until they are either out of the game or once the game has ended.

2. Note we do not tolerate personal insults or accusations. If you need to, step away from the game and take a breath if things become too heated. Be aware of your fellow Players. We are all here to have fun and play a game but this cannot happen if lines are crossed.

3. Be respectful to your Gamerunners. These individuals are giving you their time and energy to make sure up to 20+ people are happy and having fun for weeks at a time. It can be both very rewarding and also incredibly stressful and difficult, not to mention time consuming. Please be respectful and considerate towards them, their decisions and choices are never easy to make.

 

[Ketkat]

The alternative was to cancel the game. If we modkilled the inactives and the hostile players we may as well have just ended the game due to how huge of an impact it would have. I disagree in principle as well, both of these go back to the players. If you agree to play, then play. When playing, don't be a jerk. It shouldn't be as hard as it was made to look at times in this game.

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That's just something I can't agree with at all. The rules have to be enforced somehow. I get that this game was a bit worst than most which made it harder to actually enforce, but if people are going to be that level of hostile in the future with nothing really stopping them, then I'm just going to duck out of future games. I'm not looking for screaming matches and name calling over a game. That's just not what I want to deal with.

 

[Natiko]

That's just something I can't agree with at all. The rules have to be enforced somehow. I get that this game was a bit worst than most which made it harder to actually enforce, but if people are going to be that level of hostile in the future with nothing really stopping them, then I'm just going to duck out of future games. I'm not looking for screaming matches and name calling over a game. That's just not what I want to deal with.

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It has to start with the players. We should all hold each other to a higher standard, not sink down to the lowest common denominator. I'm not sure what about that isn't agreeable.

 

[Fanto]

For replacement players, I think they should maybe just be on a tighter leash when it comes to post count requirements, especially if they are subbing in for a player that didn't meet them. It just feels unfair to have to go days without someone posting.

I think if a replacement can't meet the activity requirement or doesn't feel like they can put in the work needed to catch up with the thread, then don't let them join the replacement list. And if they are on the list, join the game, and fail to do either those things, then I think they should be removed or replaced as soon as possible.

Just my thoughts on the situation as a first time player.

 

[Ketkat]

It has to start with the players. We should all hold each other to a higher standard, not sink down to the lowest common denominator. I'm not sure what about that isn't agreeable.

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Because this literally didn't work Natiko. Warnings were handed out, it continued. Multiple people sub out because of it with others wanting to, and it continued.

At some point, something has to happen for the health of the game.

 

[Sawneeks]

That's just something I can't agree with at all. The rules have to be enforced somehow. I get that this game was a bit worst than most which made it harder to actually enforce, but if people are going to be that level of hostile in the future with nothing really stopping them, then I'm just going to duck out of future games. I'm not looking for screaming matches and name calling over a game. That's just not what I want to deal with.

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I think what Nat is saying is it's a joint effort between Players and Gamerunners. Gammerunners only give you the sandbox to play in, it's up to you guys to make the most of that.

But we do know that the hostility was something to be brought up and discussed. Like you said it's not something that is even close to how it is here normally and we want to both stop it from happening in the future and ask how we can better prevent this kind of thing from happening again. One of the bigger debates would be when is something too far and when it something skirting a line? Hostility is hard to quantify unfortunately and it's difficult to say 'okay, now is when we take heavier action'.

Guess what I am saying is: what can we do better?

 

[Sawneeks]

For replacement players, I think they should maybe just be on a tighter leash when it comes to post count requirements, especially if they are subbing in for a player that didn't meet them. It just feels unfair to have to go days without someone posting.

I think if a replacement can't meet the activity requirement or doesn't feel like they can put in the work needed to catch up with the thread, then don't let them join the replacement list. And if they are on the list, join the game, and fail to do either those things, then I think they should be removed or replaced as soon as possible.

Just my thoughts on the situation as a first time player.

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Actually I really like this suggestion, honestly. >.>

Putting in place a requirement for Replacements to at the very least try to hit the 10 count minimum when they hop in sounds like a solid rule to me. If they don't hit it once without solid effort they're out, goodbye. It would negate the issue of having someone be removed for not hitting the count only for the Replacement to do the same.

 

[Ketkat]

I think what Nat is saying is it's a joint effort between Players and Gamerunners. Gammerunners only give you the sandbox to play in, it's up to you guys to make the most of that.

But we do know that the hostility was something to be brought up and discussed. Like you said it's not something that is even close to how it is here normally and we want to both stop it from happening in the future and ask how we can better prevent this kind of thing from happening again. One of the bigger debates would be when is something too far and when it something skirting a line? Hostility is hard to quantify unfortunately and it's difficult to say 'okay, now is when we take heavier action'.

Guess what I am saying is: what can we do better?

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It's hard to say what specifically is skirting the line and what isn't without looking at actual examples and player histories. In this game in particular though, there was definitely a lot of genuine hostility that was warned for good reason. I don't really have issues with people getting warnings when they go too far at first. Tensions can run high in the games and it'll happen. The issue I have is when it just spreads over multiple days and keeps going despite warnings that it's bothering people and people are stepping out because of it. I get that no one wants to modkill and eject someone from a game, but warnings have to carry some kind of weight for when people just won't stop. If killing off the slot entirely is a problem, then maybe there could be an alternative like just forcing a replacement on the person. It would still suck that it came to that, and wouldn't have worked in this game with how many replacements were needed, but it might have less impact on the overall game and keep things on track some.

 

[*Splinter]

It has to start with the players. We should all hold each other to a higher standard, not sink down to the lowest common denominator. I'm not sure what about that isn't agreeable.

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I mean, KetKat can't be accused of sinking to the lowest common denominator, I don't remember any hostility from them at least.

Of course it's up to players in the first instance to behave themselves. The issue is what should be done when they don't.

 

[*Splinter]

On the replacements, I do think Trigger should have been either replaced earlier or (if no replacements were available) modkilled. Include would also have to be modkilled, can't treat scum differently to town.

Natiko you mentioned something about Include being replaced because it wasn't her fault she had to leave, or something along those lines. It sounds like you would view a modkill as a punishment in that situation, which is wrong. Modkills are just a tool, unfortunate when they have to be used but necessary for the health of the game. For all we know Trigger's absence could have been just as unavoidable.

I don't know what the "rule" should be and I don't even know if it's something you can set hard in advance, but something about being that close to lylo should discourage replacements from happening.

I also disagree that replacements should be held to a higher standard than anyone else. Replacing is hard work, I don't think we gain much by making it harder.

As for the hostilities... I don't know if anyone should have been modkilled or subbed out, that's always gonna be the hardest decision to make. I have to agree with KetKat that the number of people subbing out (or considering it) due to the extended hostility is kind of self evident. Perhaps a firmer hand would have improved things, perhaps not. I agree with you when you say there's no solution that everyone would be happy with.

 

[flatearthpandas]

I don't like all this insinuation that I would have used the override on GP lol. Was never the plan

 

[Kopite]

I don't like all this insinuation that I would have used the override on GP lol. Was never the plan

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What was your plan actually. Why did you defend Meatwad so much? Why didnt you use your shot on Kawl if you were sonsure he was mafia?

 

[DCPat]

Faddy

You managed to get a pretty early peg on the scum team which was impressive. I especially loved your plan with DCPat to serve as cover for him and to have a trackable way of him breadcrumbing his results. That would have been impressive to see unfold (RIP DCPat).

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Yes, RIP me. I was looking forward to play it like this and did not expect to die by scum kill N1. I even doubted Faddy later on for some shenanigans. What makes it worse is that I went down as night kill uncontested, but without reasoning.

 

[Natiko]

It's hard to say what specifically is skirting the line and what isn't without looking at actual examples and player histories. In this game in particular though, there was definitely a lot of genuine hostility that was warned for good reason. I don't really have issues with people getting warnings when they go too far at first. Tensions can run high in the games and it'll happen. The issue I have is when it just spreads over multiple days and keeps going despite warnings that it's bothering people and people are stepping out because of it. I get that no one wants to modkill and eject someone from a game, but warnings have to carry some kind of weight for when people just won't stop. If killing off the slot entirely is a problem, then maybe there could be an alternative like just forcing a replacement on the person. It would still suck that it came to that, and wouldn't have worked in this game with how many replacements were needed, but it might have less impact on the overall game and keep things on track some.

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Had there been anywhere near enough replacements we would have gone that route, but if it wasn't already obvious the list for these games ended up being too thin, and to modkill that many people would have been at best demoralizing for the players, at worst enough to just end the game due to the tilt it would cause. The quantity of players that fell into this bucket is frankly something I've never seen in our community before, so it's not exactly a normal situation.

I mean, KetKat can't be accused of sinking to the lowest common denominator, I don't remember any hostility from them at least.

Of course it's up to players in the first instance to behave themselves. The issue is what should be done when they don't.

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I obviously didn't mean every single player did, but it was certainly more widespread than a one or two player outburst which is a bit easier to manage.

On the replacements, I do think Trigger should have been either replaced earlier or (if no replacements were available) modkilled. Include would also have to be modkilled, can't treat scum differently to town.

Natiko you mentioned something about Include being replaced because it wasn't her fault she had to leave, or something along those lines. It sounds like you would view a modkill as a punishment in that situation, which is wrong. Modkills are just a tool, unfortunate when they have to be used but necessary for the health of the game. For all we know Trigger's absence could have been just as unavoidable.

I don't know what the "rule" should be and I don't even know if it's something you can set hard in advance, but something about being that close to lylo should discourage replacements from happening.

I also disagree that replacements should be held to a higher standard than anyone else. Replacing is hard work, I don't think we gain much by making it harder.

As for the hostilities... I don't know if anyone should have been modkilled or subbed out, that's always gonna be the hardest decision to make. I have to agree with KetKat that the number of people subbing out (or considering it) due to the extended hostility is kind of self evident. Perhaps a firmer hand would have improved things, perhaps not. I agree with you when you say there's no solution that everyone would be happy with.

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I completely disagree. Trigger did not hit the requirement of posting for two phases which is what kicked off the need to replace him. Include had not hit that mark at all and instead requested to be replaced on her own. It makes no sense to modkill her slot just due to Trigger's being modkilled for different reasons.

 

[flatearthpandas]

What was your plan actually. Why did you defend Meatwad so much? Why didnt you use your shot on Kawl if you were sonsure he was mafia?

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I had override prepped just in case every day end but never really considered using it unless the lynch target was myself or confirmed town. I defended Meatwad because I wanted kawl or ET lynched. My town reads decided to go for Meatwad anyway, who was on my scum list as well, so no reason to override.

Last plan was to claim immediately beginning of the day to get heat off of me for defending Meatwad, force reads on kawl and et, and then (probably) shoot whoever everyone agreed on.

 

[*Splinter]

I completely disagree. Trigger did not hit the requirement of posting for two phases which is what kicked off the need to replace him. Include had not hit that mark at all and instead requested to be replaced on her own. It makes no sense to modkill her slot just due to Trigger's being modkilled for different reasons.

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What I mean is that modkill (in that context) is just an alternative to a replacement. Both Trigger and Include needed replacing, and at that point of the game replacement should (imo, of course) been modkill instead.

The fact that Trigger disappeared while Include requested to leave shouldn't factor, is all I'm saying. Because a modkill (in this context) is not a punishment.

 

[Natiko]

What I mean is that modkill (in that context) is just an alternative to a replacement. Both Trigger and Include needed replacing, and at that point of the game replacement should (imo, of course) been modkill instead.

The fact that Trigger disappeared while Include requested to leave shouldn't factor, is all I'm saying. Because a modkill (in this context) is not a punishment.

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I guess we just disagree on that point then, because if I was in a game and a teammate had a legitimate reason to request out of their own volition and it created a modkill that skewed our chances to even compete I would feel like I had wasted the month playing the game and would probably never want to play with this community again lol

 

[*Splinter]

I guess we just disagree on that point then, because if I was in a game and a teammate had a legitimate reason to request out of their own volition and it created a modkill that skewed our chances to even compete I would feel like I had wasted the month playing the game and would probably never want to play with this community again lol

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I mean... You're implying or assuming that Trigger didn't have a legitimate reason to leave the game...

 

[Extreme Tactician]

What happened to Trigger anyway? He was apparently active a few hours ago?

 

[Natiko]

I mean... You're implying or assuming that Trigger didn't have a legitimate reason to leave the game...

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If he did then he did not inform the game runners for two consecutive day phases immediately following him subbing in. Yes, I very much think that's different than a player proactively letting us know and opting to drop of their own accord.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

Honestly I'm just going to apologize again for my behaviour in this game and my play too. I seriously don't think I'm cut out for Mafia, and I've had enough time to learn it by now. It has been fun playing with you all but I think my time here is up. I wish you guys all the best. <3

 

[Extreme Tactician]

Honestly I'm just going to apologize again for my behaviour in this game and my play too. I seriously don't think I'm cut out for Mafia, and I've had enough time to learn it by now. It has been fun playing with you all but I think my time here is up. I wish you guys all the best. <3

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Aw... I hope you'll still watch!

Honestly, I dunno if I'm a good fit for Mafia either. I don't have the critical thinking necessary for scumhunting. I usually just look for obvious holes.

 

[cabot]

I'm a strong supporter of modkills.


I've a game coming up...

 

[Kitsunelaine]

Aw... I hope you'll still watch!

Honestly, I dunno if I'm a good fit for Mafia either. I don't have the critical thinking necessary for scumhunting. I usually just look for obvious holes.

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You didn't fuck up five games straight, said games being the only ones you've ever been in. I've never had a good game. You just took a game i fucked royally and turned it around entirely on your own. Y'all shouldn't doubt yourself. I'm the one that's a detriment to this community, lol

 

[*Splinter]

You didn't fuck up five games straight, said games being the only ones you've ever been in. I've never had a good game. You just took a game i fucked royally and turned it around entirely on your own. Y'all shouldn't doubt yourself. I'm the one that's a detriment to this community, lol

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I'm sorry if it feels that way Kits, but fwiw I don't think you fucked this game up? Some people suspected you sure, but that's mafia. Suspected but not lynched is pretty ideal for scum.

I don't remember exactly your previous games, but I've played with you before and you didn't fuck those up either.

(Actually I remember once you posted your role pm, but hey it happens, and you had been doing well in that game until then.)

 

[Extreme Tactician]

You didn't fuck up five games straight, said games being the only ones you've ever been in. I've never had a good game. You just took a game i fucked royally and turned it around entirely on your own. Y'all shouldn't doubt yourself. I'm the one that's a detriment to this community, lol

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Hey now, I didn't really turn it around. I just made myself a non target.

 

[rac]

I'm a strong supporter of modkills.


I've a game coming up...

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does this game consist of killing mods?

 

[cabot]

Sure, rac.

Sure.

 

[Ketkat]

Had there been anywhere near enough replacements we would have gone that route, but if it wasn't already obvious the list for these games ended up being too thin, and to modkill that many people would have been at best demoralizing for the players, at worst enough to just end the game due to the tilt it would cause. The quantity of players that fell into this bucket is frankly something I've never seen in our community before, so it's not exactly a normal situation.

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I know it wasn't really an option in this game because so many people were causing problems and needed replacing as it was. My concern was with how things will go in future games and whether its worth taking the risk of joining a game and it having the same level of hostility as this one. Which sounds dramatic, but I tend to avoid games that are toxic, and forum games aren't really any different. If you're actually willing to replace/modkill people who won't tone it down after multiple warnings, then that's really all I needed to know for reassurance. Your previous posts gave off the impression that you and Sawneeks are both are just against them in general and want to let players sort it out themselves which is honestly a little too idealistic based on how that game went.

 

[Stuart444]

If you're actually willing to replace/modkill people who won't tone it down after multiple warnings, then that's really all I needed to know for reassurance.

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On this point, I'd say after multiple warnings, replacements or having the game cancelled early (depending on the amount of people involved) is the right call.

If people don't stop after multiple warnings then there is no other choice personally and I think that's 100% fair.

 

[Natiko]

I know it wasn't really an option in this game because so many people were causing problems and needed replacing as it was. My concern was with how things will go in future games and whether its worth taking the risk of joining a game and it having the same level of hostility as this one. Which sounds dramatic, but I tend to avoid games that are toxic, and forum games aren't really any different. If you're actually willing to replace/modkill people who won't tone it down after multiple warnings, then that's really all I needed to know for reassurance. Your previous posts gave off the impression that you and Sawneeks are both are just against them in general and want to let players sort it out themselves which is honestly a little too idealistic based on how that game went.

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Oh no, I in no way am saying it won't be done in the future. If it wouldn't have been catastrophic to the game continuing it most likely would have occurred in this game. I personally would prefer to replace the slot as well if possible, but again that was not really an option. Even going further, it ultimately comes down to the game runners in question unless a rule becomes codified around it.

Clearly I am a bit more conservative when it comes to a modkill than others, but you won't have to worry about my perspective as I don't know if I'll even run the other game I have approved at this point. All told this game is most certainly the exception, not the norm in regards to hostility. It happens, but I have never seen it be so widespread which in turns means it's more manageable for the game runner to correct.

 

[nin]

Regarding the toxicity of the game.
When I replaced ceecee I read through the game and was put off instantly.
I was unsure if I really wanted to play after all.
On the one hand I did not want to let down natiko but on the other I really did not want to get affected by the game.
That's why I barely posted in the beginning and did not even meet the post requirements of the following day.
However, as the game progressed it Townes down and i started to have fun, I think that others felt that way aswell.

Thanks for hosting the game natiko!

 

[nin]

And piratebae !

 

[Fanto]

However, as the game progressed it Townes down and i started to have fun, I think that others felt that way aswell.

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Agreed.

Spoiler

 

[Ketkat]

Oh no, I in no way am saying it won't be done in the future. If it wouldn't have been catastrophic to the game continuing it most likely would have occurred in this game. I personally would prefer to replace the slot as well if possible, but again that was not really an option. Even going further, it ultimately comes down to the game runners in question unless a rule becomes codified around it.

Clearly I am a bit more conservative when it comes to a modkill than others, but you won't have to worry about my perspective as I don't know if I'll even run the other game I have approved at this point. All told this game is most certainly the exception, not the norm in regards to hostility. It happens, but I have never seen it be so widespread which in turns means it's more manageable for the game runner to correct.

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That makes sense and is why I was getting confused. I'm still pretty new so I don't really know what all you have tried in the past or what you're thinking of trying now. I just thought modkills were like the only thing on the table past warnings.

FWIW, I think you and Pirate Bae did a pretty great job running and designing this game. There really wasn't much you could do with the way that players were acting outside of the warnings handed out, but I thought that the design of the game as well as the roles were pretty interesting to see. Having a lot of power roles but with a lot of them being weaker made it a lot harder for one person to just turn the tide themselves and made me think a lot harder about how to use it properly. It really felt like a strong cohesive game that really relied on town working together with their roles, moreso than usual! I'd definitely be interested to see what else you've thought up, but I definitely get it if you need a break from hosting after that.

 

[Natiko]

I just hope everyone realizes we really did just want to try and find the best solution. I don't think it's that surprising that we were not prepared for the different fires that popped up throughout. I sincerely apologize to anyone that was off put, offended, hurt, disappointed, etc. I hope no one truly decides to leave our community due to this game. I know we can all do better. Take any time you need, but know that we as a community can be more inviting and pleasant than what you may have experienced.

 

[Deleted member 19365]

Because modkilling is lame as shit.

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I agree that it is never an ideal solution, but I definitely prefer it before late game subs.

These late game subs are really as disruptive to a game as a modkill. When you are working hard on sussing out scum or winning town over and suddenly, shortly before the finishing line someone with new views and energy turns status quo upside down, it is really disheartening.

The root of the problem is players not playing the game they agreed to be in, not how we handle their absence.

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We had problems filling the spots. If not enough people are willing to play, that may be an indicator for disinterest which likelier leads to dropouts? What else can we do? Punish people who dropout without any reason? Ban them for x-games? Should we allow dropping out of one game and joining another as a substitute? How do we want to animate players? How can we emphasize the effort needed?

I think the less outside intervention from a Gamerunner the better but I'd love to hear more opinions on this. :x

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Here is where I noticed that I deem replacements to be on the same level as modkills regarding interventions from the outside (at least after a certain point in the game... halfway?)

I guess we just disagree on that point then, because if I was in a game and a teammate had a legitimate reason to request out of their own volition and it created a modkill that skewed our chances to even compete I would feel like I had wasted the month playing the game and would probably never want to play with this community again lol

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Same here as above. A replacement can skew chances in the same way.

I just hope everyone realizes we really did just want to try and find the best solution.

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Yes, of course! I think you two handled the game the best way possible. I am just arguing in general terms. Don't take any critique personal please.

 

[Deleted member 19365]

Kitsunelaine Please don't stop playing because of this game. You are a hothead and I like that. These games are much more fun with people who have fire within them. I'd like to play with you in the future.

Fantomas Don't beat yourself up! You are definitely the runner-up town mvp. It was a hard game considering all the circumstances. You did a fantastic job, especially for your first game. I'm really looking forward to see you again.

I don't like all this insinuation that I would have used the override on GP lol. Was never the plan

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Nah, you never had a plan :p You'd probably come in with some alcohol in your blood and scream "GP you are YAKUZA!!! THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE PANDA!" - BAM override game over.

 

[Deleted member 19365]

Can we talk about sending in replacements only a few hours before the deadline? Because turning up dead the next day after one hour in-game was the shittiest thing ever happened to me :/
I don't even know if there is another way to do this... And it's not directed against Nat or Bae. I was willing to join and fight at that time, but seeing this night result was harsh.
And waiting until the night phase to announce it, can likely bring the same result. Is it something the player just has to deal with?

Consideration of replacement announcements also affect the lynch decisions unfortunately.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

Kitsunelaine Please don't stop playing because of this game. You are a hothead and I like that. These games are much more fun with people who have fire within them. I'd like to play with you in the future.

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I've been taking a lot of time to think about it and consider what I want to do. I might sit out the next season and spectate. I think that might offer me some good perspective on the game that I've been lacking, because with each game I've been just going in the deep end without ever really learning to swim. However after that I think I'll be in a positon to where I can consider rejoining the game.

I'd love to play with you again in the future too. Really play, too, not just apologetically support a Mafia decision to whack you. :'D

 

[Deleted member 19365]

That sounds like a good plan :) And try to avoid spoilers, so you can give out some totally wrong sick reads in spec chat ;)

I'd love to play with you again in the future too. Really play, too, not just apologetically support a Mafia decision to whack you. :'D

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Wait, you supported that decision?! I take everything back!! :<

 

[Kitsunelaine]

That sounds like a good plan :) And try to avoid spoilers, so you can give out some totally wrong sick reads in spec chat ;)

Wait, you supported that decision?! I take everything back!! :<

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I felt really bad about it! :<

We were all like "Holy shit this is a shitty thing to do... but we need to do it" in the Scum chat. It was a very somber decision. ;w;

 

[Fanto]

Fantomas Don't beat yourself up! You are definitely the runner-up town mvp. It was a hard game considering all the circumstances. You did a fantastic job, especially for your first game. I'm really looking forward to see you again.

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Thanks, and yeah I had a lot of fun! I'll definitely be playing again.

 

[Natiko]

I agree that it is never an ideal solution, but I definitely prefer it before late game subs.

These late game subs are really as disruptive to a game as a modkill. When you are working hard on sussing out scum or winning town over and suddenly, shortly before the finishing line someone with new views and energy turns status quo upside down, it is really disheartening.

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And if it ends a game or dramatically skews the odds of winning in the favor of one team? We came very close to modkilling the slot Include was in. Had we done that I think it's extremely likely scum lose. How is that fair to anyone?

We had problems filling the spots. If not enough people are willing to play, that may be an indicator for disinterest which likelier leads to dropouts? What else can we do? Punish people who dropout without any reason? Ban them for x-games? Should we allow dropping out of one game and joining another as a substitute? How do we want to animate players? How can we emphasize the effort needed?

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A lot of the issues we had won't be likely to occur again anytime soon as generally games do not run concurrently except once or twice a season. They were also both large games.

Here is where I noticed that I deem replacements to be on the same level as modkills regarding interventions from the outside (at least after a certain point in the game... halfway?)

Same here as above. A replacement can skew chances in the same way.

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I'm still vehemently against modkilling slots due to replacement if the prior player(s) were active. It is not a blank slate, it's on the players to consider that spot holistically and not just gloss over everything a previous player did.

I still think overall, if you flip the last two subs (so Kawl goes to Include's spot and Nicole goes to Trigger's spot) this conversation doesn't even happen. I get that it sucks that the players in that slot didn't help a ton, but it's just as likely you get a helpful player that turns things around or keeps them going forward.

 

[Extreme Tactician]

So when's the next game?