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Game of Thrones - Off Season No Book Discussion|OT|IncestERA
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Day 70 without GoT:
Ok, it's been a few weird weeks since switching to a new forum, but there is some catching up to do. Today was EP9 - "Baelor" of the rewatch. One of the biggest EP's Thrones is known for. My very briefs thoughts on EP 7,8,and 9.
Just 1 more episode left in season 1 rewatch, then off to season 2!!! Starting to chip away little by little to the season 8 premier. Dont give up yet!!
Ok, it's been a few weird weeks since switching to a new forum, but there is some catching up to do. Today was EP9 - "Baelor" of the rewatch. One of the biggest EP's Thrones is known for. My very briefs thoughts on EP 7,8,and 9.
- I hated Dany/ Drogo relationship the first time I watched this show, and after re-watching, I hate it even more. Drogo was a horrible person. The whole Dany forcing herself to love him, was basically out of fear she would go back to being nothing. The fact that she ends up having some real love for him, just makes it worse. I'm incredibly glad they killed him off in season 1. Looking back, it's so refreshing to see Dany really in love in S7. Emilia Clarke's acting really shines when she can express her character better.
- Ned is an idiot. That is all.
- Jon burns his hand in EP8 grabbing the lantern to throw on the wight. But how can he get burnt? He's a Targaryen!! Gonna be interesting to see if they reconn this in season 8.
- Shae is a horrible character with the most annoying accent and acting I have ever seen. Gonna be hard to get thru S2 with her around.
- Would of been cool to see the battles between the north and the Lannisters, but it was pretty obvious it didnt happen because of the budget.
- Ned's death still hurts. Even rewatching it for the millionth time, I'm like "NO, NO, NOOOOOO!!!"
Just 1 more episode left in season 1 rewatch, then off to season 2!!! Starting to chip away little by little to the season 8 premier. Dont give up yet!!
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She's so adorable.
Jon is also part Stark though, so he's not a true Targ...But either way being a Targ doesn't make you immune to fire I don't think, just a high tolerance. Probably why Jon can go for a polar bear swim and survive, tolerance because of his Stark blood.
That's her real accent, part German, part Turkish. I like it.
I actually really enjoyed the romance in the seventh season and while I think it was a little rushed due to the nature of the show being shorter, I think Emilia did very well with her acting which was a massive surprise and made me more convinced that it's not so much of her acting abilities especially given how expressive she is off camera, but more to do with the script and directing. I think they had enough scenes that were able to make the pairing convincing enough and I disagree with the notion that they had to basically tell the audience given that the only time their romance is mentioned is with Tyrion and Daenery's and I took it less for the audience to know since it's shown fairly clearly already but more to show her denial and continuously putting up a front/wall and how it was slowly breaking down which I felt was also visually conveyed especially with how initially they meet, given how far they stand even in the Dragonstone Cave and by the end, in Dragon's Pit, Daenery's leaning against the wall and Jon incredibly close with her laughing as well.
I think it's been mentioned that Daenery's is an extreme case no other Targaryen has ever been resistant to fire and even mentioned in the history that the Tarygaryens weren't above being burnt to death and is kind of a massive backstory for Rhaegar born in the Flame Tragedy so I don't think they'll rectify it since it's not quite a mistake. I think if they keep it consistent, it'll make for a great scene between Jon and Daenerys because while most have heard the stories, noone particularly the North have seen her leap out of the flames and could make for an incredibly inspirational scene. Having Jon being resistant to fire just doesn't make it feel right given that his rebirth having already very little consequence.
In terms of Seasons, I actually enjoyed this season. The order in which I enjoy them are 6>3>1>4>7>2>5.
I enjoy six the most because it's got the most consistent arcs through the series, still maintains a bit of the politics but also has incredibly episodes with Battle of Bastards, The Door and Winds of WInter and a lot less fluff in general. While I enjoyed Tyrion's scheming and Arya's interactions with Tywin in season 2, I really didn't' find much interest in the rest. Stannis is a terrible character saving grace being the introduction of Davos, Daenery's storyline took a massive nose dive, Robb stark doesn't really do anything interest other than screwing himself over and it felt like a build up season towards season 3 which was also really on top, there's a much better focus on Robb showing the consequences of his mistakes, the start of Jaime's arc, the actual build up between Jon and Ygritte's relationship, and Arya and the Hound being great to watch and being continued in season 4.
As for the Jon and Daenerys, I don't think either will die. In fact, the constant bringing up of kids and children on cements that she is very likely going to have children and all hopes and dreams of Tyrion's will come crashing down realizing he's helped brought back the Targaryen line once again just as powerful knowing nothing has truly changed all while seeing his own house's destruction into ruin.
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Ah, she refers to @prideofgypsies and has #lookoutjonsnowdrogosgotyournumber . It's Jason Momoa, who's Hawaiian.
Well, then it's her acting that bugs me.
I agree with both your statements. I still think Tyrion may die killing Cersie or saving Dany, wiping out the Lannisters for good.
Day 72 without GoT:
Ellie Kendrick (Meera) probably won't be back for the final season. Some more set photos made it onto the web. Nothing major, but be warned.
Ellie Kendrick (Meera) probably won't be back for the final season. Some more set photos made it onto the web. Nothing major, but be warned.
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That's bullshit, she deserves to be back and knowing she won't means we probably won't see Howland Reed either.
I agree with the interpretation that no one gets the Iron Throne in the end or at least the Targaryens don't. That vision makes it clear that Daeneys never touches the Iron Throne. But I don't think Daenerys is rejecting the Iron Throne there. She's forgoing it to do something more important.
We already see it happen in season 7. She forgoes the Iron Throne to battle the White Walkers.
But here's the rub, that vision really points to her dying in the North. She meets Drogo and Rhaego again in the North. It's possibly a dual-meaning. She marries and has another baby in the North and she dies in the North thereby meeting Rhaego and Drogo in the symbolic afterlife.
So I'd be surprised if Daenerys makes it. Jon can go either way.
I'm 100 % sure that Sansa makes it past the end though.
Tyrion: "You may survive us yet, Lady Stark."
Nah, I don't see that at all when it comes to Dany. I think the vision of her going to the north and hearing the dragon cries as she see's drogo, is pointing out that she will meet her true love (Jon), that will give her the family she's destined to have. She was never in love with Drogo. That whole scene had more to do with her child/ family she lost, than the love of Drogo.
Also once again, Dany wont die and even if she somehow does, she has Kinvara to rez her.
Well there is still a chance, and she can easily be bullshiting, but yea it sucks if true. It seems like everyone from the show just wants to finish this series and move on. Wouldn't be surprised if they passed on Reed. I hope they don't rush things like S7.
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- Dany is special, that's why she didn't get burnt. Targs are not immune to fire.
- Why do you say that Shae is a horrible character?
I agree that those three episodes are great. I disagree with you on pretty much everything else lol.
But remember, if her turning away from the throne in that vision is enough to believe that she won't sit on the Iron Throne, then her leaving Drogo and the baby also has to be looked at in a similar fashion. I'm thinking a new beau and a new baby.
Yeah, Emilia Clarke is my celeb crush. So adorable.
I hope Khal Drogo is ready to burn down HBO if they mess with Khaleesi. It's like the NHL Expansion draft. I'm nominating Dany and Arya as my safe picks, and the rest you can draft for Team Dead as you see fit. Oh and maybe I want to get Bronn and Tormund under this tent.
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She was definitely in love with Drogo. Poor writing,maybe, but she was in love with him. (Also I don't believe this is the type of series that believes in true love)
Anyways, I agree that the vision points with what you said the vision is about her starting a new family, but I think it's a dual-meaning. Daenerys starts a new family with Jon and then dies and rejoins Drogo and Rhaego in the symbolic afterlife.
Like, I don't see Daeneyrs ever getting that throne but I don't see what could stop Daenerys from taking it if she lives so she probably does die. Daenerys living and not taking the Iron Throne is an outcome that I don't see for her.
Also Daenerys may not want to be rezzed or her body may be found in a condition where it can't be resurrected. Remember that Thoros points out that he can't resurrect a man without a head to Arya.
I'm rewatching the first season right now and just finished EP9. This is pretty much their relationship summed up:
Get's gifted to Drogo.
Get's raped repeatedly.
Decides to try and force herself to love him, win him over, while using him for power.
Gets pregnant.
Watches him loot, murder and rape a village.
He gets mortally wounded and see's her ticket to power/ freedom slip away.
That's it. That's literally their whole relationship on the show. It was never real love. It was stockholm syndrome at best. That vision of her and Drogo was basically her seeing what she could of had. It was the only thing close to what she thought was love that she had ever experienced in her life up to that point. Her falling for Jon is the real first time she ever experienced real love.
Dany will live when her and Jon have a child. I don't think she truly wants power and of course Jon doesn't. Her quest for power and "breaking the wheel" has every bit to do with how she has been treated her whole life. Once they end the threats ( WW & Cersie ) my bet is she and Jon choose to leave Westros and live a quiet life of freedom together, which is what they truly always wanted. I don't see D&D building up Dany this much, just to have her die. My opinion, that would be horrible writing and they will get destroyed by the fans for it.
Where's he been at? And why does he look like a little pup in this shot?
I'll leave this hear as we wait for the return of Ghost. Miss that boy.
I still don't understand why people at times would use part of that vision in a certain way, but then hand wave other parts that are similar because it disproves the first bit.
She walks away from the throne = she won't sit on the Iron Throne. Ok that's a fair look at it I suppose. She finds Khal Drogo and her child beyond the wall, realises it's all a trick, and walks away from them = yep, that means Dany is going to die and rejoin Drogo and the baby. Ah, but just like with the throne, she walked away from them as well. In fact, she knowingly walked away from them, because joining them would have meant continued enslavement by those warlocks.
I agree with you, Dany isn't going to die. May not sit on the Iron Throne (due to its destruction for example), but I think she's making it.
No way will Danny die. I've always imagined her to be an end game character.. and Jon. I don't think either of them will.
Melisandre said she brought "ice and fire together", and I think doing so will be the undoing of the Night King and his army. I mean that's in the freaking title of the books. They also heavily hinted that Danny may be considered "the prince that was promised", didn't they? Maybe they're both a part of that prophecy, I don't know.
I mean I could be wrong but that's my take.
Melisandre said she brought "ice and fire together", and I think doing so will be the undoing of the Night King and his army. I mean that's in the freaking title of the books. They also heavily hinted that Danny may be considered "the prince that was promised", didn't they? Maybe they're both a part of that prophecy, I don't know.
I mean I could be wrong but that's my take.
I don't think she'll die, but I don't think she'll "win", either. I think the stuff with Jon is making her finally realize that there are higher callings than just amassing power and revenge.
I think the end of the show is going to involve the Iron Throne being obsolete and the Seven Kingdoms splitting up into actually independent nations like they were pre-Aegon. Dany might sit on one throne, but she won't rule them all.
I think the end of the show is going to involve the Iron Throne being obsolete and the Seven Kingdoms splitting up into actually independent nations like they were pre-Aegon. Dany might sit on one throne, but she won't rule them all.
Jon, a living baby, being alive, having their own little territory, being with those she loves and loves her, and with Missandae still at her side as advisor and aunty/nanny to the kids too? That sounds like a major win to me lol.
That's what I mean, yeah. She views winning as total domination right now, but I think by the end of the series she might just be more comfortable leading a happy life with a smaller territory to control instead.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dany's whole bit about conquering Westeros didn't really materialise till after they attempted to kill her right? Like even Khal Drogo was never planning on sailing west till the attempt on his Khaleesi. After that, "I want to go home" essentially meant that there was no way she could go home without taking the place in conquest.
So yeah, your point makes a lot of sense if you remember what's driving her. She wanted to home, and the people ruling "home" made it quite clear that her not even being there wasn't enough to stay their hands from trying to kill her. Going home and conquering home became one and the same. Without that external pressure I think she would settle for everything you mentioned.
Kinda sorta, yeah. Dany always viewed Westeros as her birthright, but until the assassination attempt at the port, she naively (like the kid she was at that point, aided by Viserys' delusions) believed that she would be welcomed with open arms when she returned home. Robert basically fucked everything up with the chimera. That and the betrayals in Qarth basically pushed her into "no one will ever hurt me again" mode, and she stayed there for the entire Essos arc.
At least in the show, it seems like Jon is really helping bring her back down to earth.
Was that Dany's or Visarys' birthright claims at the start though? Because prior to that point, at the time when her brother sold her to Drogo, she told him all she wanted was to go home. Visarys was the one who saw his sister as his meal ticket to get back to Westeros and to the throne he claimed.
By the time of her brother's death, Dany was fully immersed in the Dothraki culture, and I don't recall any scenes or mentioning of anything in regards to wanting to still head back there until the assassination attempt. Which is when an enraged Drogo promises her that he'll do for her what he wasn't going to do for her brother.
Lol Robert and his self fulfilling prophecy. He essentially gave purpose, a target, and a goal to work towards to the very thing he feared.
That's what I mean when I say that it might be poor writing but Daenerys did love him even if he did rape her. Just look at how she reacts when he's wounded. He deeply cares about him even though he's a terrible person.
D & D aren't making an ending catering to their HBO fans. In fact, that'd be the worst way to do things.
Like I said, Daenerys deciding that she doesn't want to unite Westeros after all means she's pretty much abandoning Westeros so she can go be happy. Basically, she's picking the selfish decision. I think better of Daenerys than that.
Technically, Jon is fire and ice by himself but Melisandre wouldn't know that. And season 8 is the endgame so she's already made it there.
I guess I should have clarified.. I meant "endgame" as in characters who are just too important to kill.
Like I said I could be wrong of course
Ah what? She essentially put aside a guaranteed victory over Cersei to go North and fight for the people of Westeros. Dany, due to her connection with and command over Drogon, is personally going into the field to fight against the White Walkers. Think about it, if all Dany had was a massive army (which is still good enough to win wars against other kingdoms), she wouldn't even have to risk her own life in war. But because of her being a dragon rider, she puts her own life on the line.
After the war with the WW is over, and after Cersie is dealt with, who can demand anything more from her or even Jon?
"Hey, so it's great and all that you guys saved us from both the WW and Cersei, but y'all still have more work to do. Best get on it before we started thinking y'all are some selfish folk."
Not to mention at this point in the story, I think it would be abundantly clear that Westeros as a NATION is less important than Westeros as a population.
A centralized leader can't efficiently control all eight regions and their diverse (sometimes counteractive) populations. The Iron Throne made sense in Aegon's day, but not so much anymore.
Jon's been arcing this way for a while now, I fully expect it to rub off on Danny the more time they spend together.
A centralized leader can't efficiently control all eight regions and their diverse (sometimes counteractive) populations. The Iron Throne made sense in Aegon's day, but not so much anymore.
Jon's been arcing this way for a while now, I fully expect it to rub off on Danny the more time they spend together.
It seems like Jon is having that affect alright. They start of meeting each other with, "yeah, even if I believed you, I need to get the kingdoms under my control first." To then leaving hand in hand with, "yeah, we need to save the people first and then worry about the political stuff later."
Watch the North (after they get over their whole hiccup over the Targaryens) rally and fall in love with her, due to her being the only "southern" leader to come to the North and fight for its people. I know Stannis came and smashed the wildlings, but all that took place beyond the wall. When he attempted to fight Ramsey he failed. Not to mention the wildlings he smashed, now make up a large chunk of the Northern forces. So no, he doesn't count for me.
Watch the North (after they get over their whole hiccup over the Targaryens) rally and fall in love with her, due to her being the only "southern" leader to come to the North and fight for its people. I know Stannis came and smashed the wildlings, but all that took place beyond the wall. When he attempted to fight Ramsey he failed. Not to mention the wildlings he smashed, now make up a large chunk of the Northern forces. So no, he doesn't count for me.
It's funny how a tiny crush changed that much. If she didn't crush on Jon she wouldn't have bothered to fly up there to save him and the reality of the situation never would've fully hit her.
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I'm 100% convinced ice and fire is about those two. It's like that saying about how realists and dreamers need one another. The realist insures that the dreamer doesn't fly to close to the sun, and the dreamer helps the realist get off the ground in the first place. He's her ice, and she's his fire.
That burning inferno that has been raging since the attempt on her life and the loss of her husband and child, have now been tempered by the ice of Jon Snow. Soon the fire will in return do something about that near constant brooding lol.
Somewhere in Winterfell offscreen. I believe it's Ghost back in season 2.
Yes, but she's not dealing with the consequences. She's leaving it to someone else. She breaks the wheel and then....she leaves it to someone else to solve everything.
Like what is she going to do with the Dothraki, the Unsullied and the ironborn? Would the next leader honor her agreement with the ironborn? Would the next leader try to get the Dothraki and Unsullied to assimilate? Are they going to deport them? Are they going to conduct genocide? Are the Dothraki going to go back to their old ways without Daenerys or are they going to follow Daenerys north?
Also all her kids with Jon will have a claim to Westeros. And the next ruler knows that. What stops them from trying to assassinate them? Or what stops his kids from trying to assassinate these threats? Lots of questions get brought up. Daenerys ruling Westeros solves all these but I don't think she gets it in the end which is why I drift towards death.
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Her and Jon would probably rule, but not over the Kingdoms, but rather a kingdom. Breaking the wheel to me is breaking the seven kingdoms back into their independent states. The Dothraki and Unsullied live and make a home in the territory Jon and Dany stay at (probably the North). So the consequences is giving authority back to the previous kings (now wardens).
Hope this is the ending.
That wasn't real love. That was "the only thing protecting me, and that is giving me a small amount of power is about to die. What do I do now? I don't want to be a slave again". Dany literally doesn't know what love really is. like I said, stockholm syndrome. Watch that scene again:
I can assure you, D&D will make an ending that satisfies fans and gives the series closure. They have been wanting to finish this show for ages and the last thing they want is to piss off a rabid fanbase. HBO also wants to assure that people will be interested in watching another series. Killing off one or both of the two main characters, is gonna make people question if it's even worth it to watch another series if it's just gonna end up bad. This isnt Martin writing the show. HBO wants what's best for business.
She wants to be happy, thats literally the point of her whole journey. She believes conquering the world and ending evil things will do it. Things change when she meets Jon. She quickly realizes she's found someone that really makes her happy. She gives up an easy victory to save Jon. Once the wars are over, she will probably realize it's better not to have one person controlling everything. Attempting to rule all of westros is what is selfish.
This.
So basically you're saying that Daenerys becomes Queen in the North then, right?
IDK, I don't think Jon could ever be KITN if he finds out about his parentage. Heck, I'm not sure if the northern lords would even re-elect him knowing what they know now. Like Jon just gave away his kingship and bent the knee to Daeneys. That's going to piss people off and they have an alternative in Sansa plus Jon not even being in the North for most of his kingship.
Also, I'm not sure if there are many clear wardens to give the kingdoms back to. The Tyrells are extinct, the Martells are extinct and the Baratheons are extinct (unless Gendry is legitimized). That's already 3 Kingdoms out of the 7.
I guess Tyrion can take Casterly Rock. Edmure's fate is unknown but if he's still alive then he can get the Riverlands back.
The Unsullied would probably be easy to handle and assimilate into the North but the Dothraki are going to be hard as hell. Most of them don't even speak the native language, they don't follow blood lineages but the person like the Wildlings so just because they follow Daenerys doesn't mean they'll follow her kids, their lifestyle is built on raiding etc.
I guess it would be fun seeing them mingle with the Wildlings.
No, she very clearly loves him. She even starts crying over how he'll only return to her "when the sun sets in the east and rises in the west" and etc.
D & D are doing big chunks of Martin's ending so I don't think the fan base factors into it but what Martin intended. And you know, sometimes a sad ending for a character is more poignant than a happy ending. See: Robb and Ned Stark.
Personally, I think Daenerys finding someone that makes her happy, having a baby and getting close to the Iron Throne and then giving it all up to save the world in a grand sacrifice is a much better ending to her story than Daenerys gets everything she wanted and then giving up something she doesn't really want anymore(ruling Westero) to go be happy.
And no, I think working to benefit society and doing the hard work is actually not selfish at all as long as you treat kingship like a job and not something to stroke your ego.
Yeah, but if he marries her, he never ends up giving the North away, instead he found himself a co-ruler. Plus, what leg to the Northern houses have in the face of the people who are laying their lives on the line to save them? So you think Jon finding out about his parentage would drive him to seek the Iron Throne (or whatever remains after the WW)?
Lol the Wildlings are the English speaking cousins of the Dothraki, and the Dothraki don't even have cannibals within their ranks.
I doubt they're going to orphan yet another Targaryen child, in consecutive lines of descent no less.
"Grandma died giving birth to mommy, and mommy died while I was a baby. Oh and papa's mommy died giving birth to him."
Forget the white hair. Having your mom die while you're a baby is going to be the new Targaryen distinction.
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I mean that Jon couldn't tolerate being the overlord of the North if he's not actually the son of Ned Stark. He's butting out Ned Stark's actual kids.
The North is going to have a tough time trying to assimilate the Wildlings and the Dothraki. Did Daenerys bring any Dothraki women? I predict a lot of Dothraki rapes if not.
It's a pattern. Tyrion also lost his mother when he was born.
Heck, the main characters are all a bunch of orphans.
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Speaking of Bran.
Benioff and Weiss said that the author told them 3 shocking twists and that the third will happen near the end.
My prediction: It involves Bran Stark or Daenerys maybe both. I only say this because of a show only theory that I saw that floored me but I'm not sure if theories are cool to share in this thread.
Benioff and Weiss said that the author told them 3 shocking twists and that the third will happen near the end.
My prediction: It involves Bran Stark or Daenerys maybe both. I only say this because of a show only theory that I saw that floored me but I'm not sure if theories are cool to share in this thread.
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Show only theories are more than fine, they're welcomed and encouraged. I think I'll update the OP with that, thanks for the reminder.
Unless it's the theory that Bran is the NK, then no, it's not welcome...lol
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