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Game of Thrones S8, Apr 14-May 19 @9PM EDT |OT| Aunt-Man and the Frost

Oct 27, 2017
2,298
The idiot part comes from apparently not expecting retaliation from the Starks before coming to Winterfell. I guess it just slipped his mind that he attempted to murder Bran.

Then there's Dany probably not being all that cool with him killing his father.

Good luck, Jaime. What is he even doing here, besides coming to the gathering of the heroes.
I mean, he’s bringing another Valyrian blade
 

Vas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,638
I don't think it'll ever quite come to that. Jon & Dany are definitely going to have it out over what she did to Randyl and Dickon Tarly, but I think the battle with the White Walkers will happen before they have a chance to say anything that can't be taken back. Something will definitely change permanently about their relationship, but I don't think it will result in an all-out war between them.
I agree, however... I think that they might go their separate ways after Winterfell and I believe if that happens, one of the dragons will refuse to abandon Jon.
 
Mar 25, 2019
71
Tyrion seems to be so desperate to salvage SOMETHING of his family that he's willing to let himself go completely genre-blind with hope.
A pretty far cry from book Tyrion!

“I will lead [Danaerys'] armies or rub her feet, as she desires. And the only reward I ask is I might be allowed to r*** and kill my sister.”
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
Absolutely agree. Bran isn't really Bran anymore, and he's able to see how Jaime has suffered and changed over the course of the series.
I don't think it will be Bran doing most of the help. At least not initially, it will be Brienne. In the books Jaime has a dream of him and Brienne being in what seems to be the Winterfell crypt, and Targaryen and Stark dead (Robb, Ned, Rhaegar and co) are calling him out, threatening him, and Brienne and him are both naked and have to sort of try to fight their way out, but mostly by speaking. Brienne helps him in the dream, but eventually things fade. It seemed to have been foreshadowing this moment.

At the same time, Aerys killed Brandon Stark (the other one, Ned's brother) and his father. Daenerys killed her brother (or at least didn't mind it), who was the heir to the throne. I think they won't be able to argue much about kingslaying or kinslaying.

Wouldn't surprise me that Bran says nothing at all, just watches.

edit: Oh, I hope Dany remembers who tried to spear her lol.
 
Nov 24, 2018
809
Like who? Pretty much every human antagonist in the show is gone aside from Cersei and Qyburn.
I honestly don't have an answer for you. I basically brain dump after every season and fumble my way through the first couple of episodes while my brain catches up. But it's not as if she and her family haven't been fucked over by half the realm. Plus if she actually is a manifestation of death, then she could be involved with every major death this season.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,064
A pretty far cry from book Tyrion!

“I will lead [Danaerys'] armies or rub her feet, as she desires. And the only reward I ask is I might be allowed to r*** and kill my sister.”
Alternatively, it's deliberate misdirection on D&D's part just like the AGONIZING Arya/Sansa Drama(TM) last season was.
 
Mar 25, 2019
71
I don't think it will be Bran doing most of the help. At least not initially, it will be Brienne. In the books Jaime has a dream of him and Brienne being in what seems to be the Winterfell crypt, and Targaryen and Stark dead (Robb, Ned, Rhaegar and co) are calling him out, threatening him, and Brienne and him are both naked and have to sort of try to fight their way out, but mostly by speaking. Brienne helps him in the dream, but eventually things fade. It seemed to have been foreshadowing this moment.

At the same time, Aerys killed Brandon Stark (the other one, Ned's brother) and his father. Daenerys killed her brother (or at least didn't mind it), who was the heir to the throne. I think they won't be able to argue much about kingslaying or kinslaying.

Wouldn't surprise me that Bran says nothing at all, just watches.

edit: Oh, I hope Dany remembers who tried to spear her lol.
Do you think Jaime is Azor Ahai?
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,103
Question: the little boy the White Walkers strung up, who Tormund and crew found was at Last Hearth, right? Did they say that in the show?
There were House Umber banners outside when the crew showed up, and the little boy was the head of House Umber who said he was going home to gather troops earlier in the episode
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,064
There were House Umber banners outside when the crew showed up, and the little boy was the head of House Umber who said he was going home to gather troops earlier in the episode
Also, Last Hearth was the only non-WF/KL location shown in the opening credits aside from the Wall. Kinda surprised they straight-up spoiled it'd get overrun during the opening credits.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,128
what is gendry's surname? every kingdom has a surname for bastards, right? and i think he was a bastard born in the stormlands or the crownlands or something
 
Nov 1, 2017
824
There were House Umber banners outside when the crew showed up, and the little boy was the head of House Umber who said he was going home to gather troops earlier in the episode
Also, Last Hearth was the only non-WF/KL location shown in the opening credits aside from the Wall. Kinda surprised they straight-up spoiled it'd get overrun during the opening credits.
Gotcha. I didn’t catch either of those. I don’t think any non-book reader friends did either.
 
Mar 25, 2019
71
Alternatively, it's deliberate misdirection on D&D's part just like the AGONIZING Arya/Sansa Drama(TM) last season was.
I dunno... The show runners seem to be going out of their way to make the most popular characters, such as Tyrion much more heroic and likable than they are in the books. I wouldn't put it past them to actually make Tyrion this naive about Cercei.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,064
Gotcha. I didn’t catch either of those. I don’t think any non-book reader friends did either.
I think we're gonna need to pay close attention to the credits this season.

I dunno... The show runners seem to be going out of their way to make the most popular characters, such as Tyrion much more heroic and likable than they are in the books. I wouldn't put it past them to actually make Tyrion this naive about Cercei.
I just don't see how Tyrion being a naive idiot makes him heroic or likeable. Cersei is one of the worst people alive.
 
Mar 25, 2019
71
what is gendry's surname? every kingdom has a surname for bastards, right? and i think he was a bastard born in the stormlands or the crownlands or something
Gendry was born in Kings Landing, I believe, so it would be Waters.

But actually, he's not acknowledged by Robert, so he does not get a surname. Only bastards that are acknowledged by their highborn fathers get a bastard surname like Snow, or Stone or Waters.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,298
Florida
I mean GRRM says this is what he's been doing this whole story. Build an expectation then shatter it.







So what does GRRM do when he creates a character that says they'll be queen since book one and give her success after success? What does GRRM do when he creates a bastard that's the rightful heir to the throne and builds him up as successful?

Is he going to play it predictable or....?

I can see GRRM's mindset if Bran was the central character.

It'd be similar to the decoy protagonist turning out to be the real protagonist all along and the two protagonists were the actual decoy protagonists.
Did he have any creative input in the screenplay of this season? Jon just seems way too chosen oney and it doesn't fit the catharsis he likes to follow with his characters and their arcs.
 
Oct 27, 2017
14,166
To be fair, he could be in on Cersei's plan to betray them. Remember that look he gave Jon and Dany at the end of season 7 after his meeting with Cersei.
Nah, that'd make no sense. The easiest conclusion is the one we've witnessed since S5, Tyrion is a complete dumbass now. Remember how he fucked up every instance of ruling and advice in Essos until Dany showed up and said just burn them all?

D&D don't understand or don't care for the political writing. Think how dumb it is for Davos to suggest to Tyrion for Jon and Dany to marry. A thing that should have been suggested the second they met. Hell, the stated reason she gives for leaving Daario is that she recognizes she needs to be able to marry to form alliances in Westeros. But, it seems everyone forgot that.

The political writing is brain dead at this point. Shit, we got Arya telling people that Sansa is the smartest character, Sansa. The fool who almost tried to kill Arya last season due to obvious manipulation from Baelish. A once smart character who was also reduced to a dunce.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
Do you think Jaime is Azor Ahai?
I am pretty sure I know who Azor Ahai WAS way back, but it's pretty much all based on book lore (with a bit supplemented by dragonglass being used to "cure" Benjen in the show).

But this time I don't know. My guess has been for a while that it is Davos who will stab Melisandre in the heart with a sword, at her request, to create Lightbringer, but his relation with her has basically evaporated. We'll see if it leads to anything. When she returns things should get pretty clear.
 
Mar 25, 2019
71
I think we're gonna need to pay close attention to the credits this season.



I just don't see how Tyrion being a naive idiot makes him heroic or likeable. Cersei is one of the worst people alive.
Good point. I guess maybe they want people to pity him?

To be honest, I haven't enjoyed Tyrion's character that much for the past few seasons. I know his travels through Essos needed to be shortened quite a bit, but ever since he's met Dany, he's been either comic relief or saying and doing stupid things. Very disappointing.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,281
Does anyone have a strong grasp on how the other characters even feel about Bran at the moment? Do they actually believe he has magical powers or do they think he's just weird and crazy after being beyond the wall for so long?

Its like every time he tells someone something prophetic or intimately insightful, they stare at him for 2 seconds and then go on about their business, and I can't tell what we as the viewer are supposed to take from it. Is he trying to give them info but they are ignoring him because they think he's crazy? Or is he just so cryptic and distant that they don't know what to think?

It feels like at this point, they should be consulting with Bran and asking him what to do about x, y, z. But he's mostly just being left to himself while everyone else goes about fussing with each other, which leads me to believe everyone just thinks he is crazy and don't take him seriously. But Jon believes in wargs because he was attacked by one. And to that point, Bran could easily prove his abilities by warging, if proof is what any of these people wanted.

Idk. It's frustrating because magic is an element of the show now but without knowing what people actually believe about it, it still doesn't feel properly meshed into plotting. Is everyone still a skeptic or have people bought into magic again?
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,225
The other points are true but I don't think anyone knows Bran was pushed by Jaimie. Only Bran and Cersei.

If there would be any retaliation, it would be for slaughtering Ned's men during that duel, or for his family sending their regards at the Red Wedding.
I had forgotten about the Red Wedding lol. He may not be responsible for it, but he's still a Lannister. The family is responsible for the deaths of one Lord Stark, two Lady Starks (I guess one of those was technically a Queen) and a King in the North.

It will be fun to see how D&D manages make this fan favorite squirm his way out of certain death.
 
Oct 26, 2017
15,426
Nah, that'd make no sense. The easiest conclusion is the one we've witnessed since S5, Tyrion is a complete dumbass now. Remember how he fucked up every instance of ruling and advice in Essos until Dany showed up and said just burn them all?

D&D don't understand or don't care for the political writing. Think how dumb it is for Davos to suggest to Tyrion for Jon and Dany to marry. A thing that should have been suggested the second they met. Hell, the stated reason she gives for leaving Daario is that she recognizes she needs to be able to marry to form alliances in Westeros. But, it seems everyone forgot that.

The political writing is brain dead at this point. Shit, we got Arya telling people that Sansa is the smartest character, Sansa. The fool who almost tried to kill Arya last season due to obvious manipulation from Baelish. A once smart character who was also reduced to a dunce.
I mean, not much room for politics when zombies are like.....literally a day away. NOW IF ONLY EVERYONE IN THE GOT UNIVERSE WOULD STOP WORRYING ABOUT THE POLITICS AND GET THEIR SHIT TOGETHER.


They literally know that the night king has an ice dragon!!! GUYS, STAHP! :|
 
Mar 25, 2019
71
Does anyone have a strong grasp on how the other characters even feel about Bran at the moment? Do they actually believe he has magical powers or do they think he's just weird and crazy after being beyond the wall for so long?

Its like every time he tells someone something prophetic or intimately insightful, they stare at him for 2 seconds and then go on about their business, and I can't tell what we as the viewer are supposed to take from it. Is he trying to give them info but they are ignoring him because they think he's crazy? Or is he just so cryptic and distant that they don't know what to think?

It feels like at this point, they should be consulting with Bran and asking him what to do about x, y, z. But he's mostly just being left to himself while everyone else goes about fussing with each other, which leads me to believe everyone just thinks he is crazy and don't take him seriously. But Jon believes in wargs because he was attacked by one. And to that point, Bran could easily prove his abilities by warging, if proof is what any of these people wanted.

Idk. It's frustrating because magic is an element of the show now but without knowing what people actually believe about it, it still doesn't feel properly meshed into plotting. Is everyone still a skeptic or have people bought into magic again?
Are you starting to see why these books take so long to finish? :)
 
Mar 25, 2019
71
I mean, not much room for politics when zombies are like.....literally a day away. NOW IF ONLY EVERYONE IN THE GOT UNIVERSE WOULD STOP WORRYING ABOUT THE POLITICS AND GET THEIR SHIT TOGETHER.


They literally know that the night king has an ice dragon!!! GUYS, STAHP! :|
I don't think anyone outside of the folks who actually fought the wights and White Walkers actually grasp what they're about to be facing. I can imagine the situation not seeming quite real to them yet. Bickering about politics is probably almost comforting as it adds a sense of normalcy to what's going on
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
For the way Tyrion's character has evolved. In the books it seems he makes a major fuckup when he "fools" Young Griff into invading Westeros, which is building up to be a colossal fuck up on Tyrion for thinking he is so smart. It seems Dany will have trouble landing in Westeros because YG did before her, so Tyrion will convince her to land west to take Lannisport/Casterly Rock. We saw that later bit happen in the show, and it backfired. You can imagine her blasting Tyrion, asking if he made her take Casterly Rock for his own interest. Things are sort of lining up for Tyrion to pick the "wrong" king/queen and be stuck handling a situation that goes ever more out of his control, to the point where all he will truly have left will be his sister. It's far from having reached that point because of how far back the books are, but I can imagine that was what D&D were told about where his character was going, but Tyrion is such a "book" character, you can't reduce his importance in the show like they have without risking ruining his character.

Still, there's time. We'll see what happens with him.
 
Oct 27, 2017
14,166
I mean, not much room for politics when zombies are like.....literally a day away. NOW IF ONLY EVERYONE IN THE GOT UNIVERSE WOULD STOP WORRYING ABOUT THE POLITICS AND GET THEIR SHIT TOGETHER.


They literally know that the night king has an ice dragon!!! GUYS, STAHP! :|
Just staying true to real life and why the books/early seasons were so good. You got people talking about the imminent destruction of everything yet everyone is still focused on their petty squabbles. Much like how Climate Change is a real life issue yet you got dumbass Republicans still bitching about taxes, regulation, and the science not being real. We'll bicker and fight each other even when death is literally knocking on our door.

I do find it funny how adamant these Northern Lords are that Jon keep his Crown when the North had been independent for such a short time and for as long as they can all recall the North has lived under Targaryen rule. Like, y'all bended the knee before, chill.
 
Mar 25, 2019
71
For the way Tyrion's character has evolved. In the books it seems he makes a major fuckup when he "fools" Young Griff into invading Westeros, which is building up to be a colossal fuck up on Tyrion for thinking he is so smart. It seems Dany will have trouble landing in Westeros because YG did before her, so Tyrion will convince her to land west to take Lannisport/Casterly Rock. We saw that later bit happen in the show, and it backfired. You can imagine her blasting Tyrion, asking if he made her take Casterly Rock for his own interest. Things are sort of lining up for Tyrion to pick the "wrong" king/queen and be stuck handling a situation that goes ever more out of his control, to the point where all he will truly have left will be his sister. It's from being there, but I can imagine that was what D&D were told about where his character was going, but Tyrion is such a "book" character, you can't reduce his importance in the show like they have without risking ruining his character.

Still, there's time. We'll see what happens with him.
I don't know if Casterly Rock will be quite the low-hanging fruit that it was on the TV show since Euron's Iron Born have been ravaging the West Coast. Also, the deal with the Lannisters' mines being all dried up is a show-only plot point (GRRM confirmed this last year, I believe)
 

Morrigan

Armoring
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
9,034
"Cersei and Euron looked so beautiful that night"

Fucking. LOL.
100% lock for both in my books
Haha, you guys.
what is gendry's surname? every kingdom has a surname for bastards, right? and i think he was a bastard born in the stormlands or the crownlands or something
Crownlands bastards are typically named Waters. But Gendry has no surname that I know of.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,103
Gotcha. I didn’t catch either of those. I don’t think any non-book reader friends did either.
Yeah, it was easy to miss. Especially since the northern lords in those meeting scenes in all previous seasons have been pretty unimportant individually except for Lyanna Mormont. I wouldn't blame people for unfocusing their eyes when Jon and Sansa were talking to the Umber kid.

They could have made it more clear, but personally I appreciate them being a bit more subtle with stuff like that. There's already a lot of on-the-nose dialogue
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,370
There's a lot of people in that room that could save him. You think Jon would be ok with killing him once he finds out why he killed the Mad King?

EDIT: I have a feeling this is what's going to set him against Dany. He'd probably see killing the Mad King as the only right move in that situation, he's the type who would want someone next to him willing to stop him if he ever tried something like that. Dany, on the other hand, is afraid of such things.
That’s the way I seen it. He doesn’t care what happens honestly

he will have defenders.
-Tyrion
-Brianne
- John ( probably )
I'm pretty sure Bran is going to vouch for him. Seems like the entire point of the setup with him waiting for an old friend.
Yeah but only Jon would have a chance of stopping her. She will definitely not listen to Tyrion (at this point after he's shit the bed), not Bran (she has yet to learn about his All Seeing but I doubt he has enough seay even with facts) and definitely not Brienne. She has no sway over Dany. And how invested is Jon in saving Jaime's life? After he reveals Cersei is betraying them there's not much for him to do except join Dany's Westerosi Avengers
 
Mar 25, 2019
71
Just staying true to real life and why the books/early seasons were so good. You got people talking about the imminent destruction of everything yet everyone is still focused on their petty squabbles. Much like how Climate Change is a real life issue yet you got dumbass Republicans still bitching about taxes, regulation, and the science not being real. We'll bicker and fight each other even when death is literally knocking on our door.

I do find it funny how adamant these Northern Lords are that Jon keep his Crown when the North had been independent for such a short time and for as long as they can all recall the North has lived under Targaryen rule. Like, y'all bended the knee before, chill.
You have to take into account that they've suffered a lot due to Southron rule. Aerys murdered their lord and his heir. Then, they lost a lot of their fathers, sons and brothers in Roberts Rebellion. Robert himself was ok, but his wife & son go and kill their lord again! They're frustrated and angry.

Also, even though the North is technically part of the Seven Kingdoms, they've largely been left alone until the last 20-25 years.
 
Oct 27, 2017
14,166
Also regarding Jon's lineage, this is where setting up Rhaegar's harp would've played nicely and something Jon could use as proof of his heritage if called into question. I'm convinced that Rhaegar's harp is in Lyanna's crypt in the books and that's how Jon finds out.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
I don't know if Casterly Rock will be quite the low-hanging fruit that it was on the TV show since Euron's Iron Born have been ravaging the West Coast. Also, the deal with the Lannisters' mines being all dried up is a show-only plot point (GRRM confirmed this last year, I believe)
Yeah but that would be another good reason to land there, to get money. Euron does beat her army in the show there, I think the same would happen. I really think they had her take Casterly Rock because GRRM told them it would happen. It was weird that she lands in the east but fights so far west. In the books things were seemingly lining up for Dany to land west, by traveling east, either circumventing the planet or some bermuda triangle shit, but it appears George dropped that when he chose not to do the five year gap he had wanted to.

Also regarding Jon's lineage, this is where setting up Rhaegar's harp would've played nicely and something Jon could use as proof of his heritage if called into question. I'm convinced that Rhaegar's harp is in Lyanna's crypt in the books and that's how Jon finds out.
Why would the harp be there? Who in their right mind would bring it and put it there?
 
Oct 26, 2017
15,426
Idk. It's frustrating because magic is an element of the show now but without knowing what people actually believe about it, it still doesn't feel properly meshed into plotting. Is everyone still a skeptic or have people bought into magic again?
I mean everyone literally preparing to fight ice zombies, are hanging with multiple people who have literally come back from the dead, one of whom has the power to make their sword spontaneously combust, there's also the dragons. I think the people who matter are pretty bought into the fact that magic is back in the world. Like there's some major limitations to all the magic ofc no one's casting gandalf spells. But everyone is too busy playing the game of thrones to focus on the game of "hey there's fucking zombies on the way we need to move past our differences and come up with a plan."

I don't think anyone outside of the folks who actually fought the wights and White Walkers actually grasp what they're about to be facing. I can imagine the situation not seeming quite real to them yet. Bickering about politics is probably almost comforting as it adds a sense of normalcy to what's going on
Damn that's actually a good point.

Just staying true to real life and why the books/early seasons were so good. You got people talking about the imminent destruction of everything yet everyone is still focused on their petty squabbles. Much like how Climate Change is a real life issue yet you got dumbass Republicans still bitching about taxes, regulation, and the science not being real. We'll bicker and fight each other even when death is literally knocking on our door.

I do find it funny how adamant these Northern Lords are that Jon keep his Crown when the North had been independent for such a short time and for as long as they can all recall the North has lived under Targaryen rule. Like, y'all bended the knee before, chill.
Watch they "For the watch" Jon again before he even gets the chance to fight the whitewalkers. I hate this fucking show. This amount of anxiety dude. Like I know shit's gonna go wrong as it always does, I can only take solace in the fact that Arya commissioned a chekhov's gun, which may ensure her survival. :|
 
Mar 25, 2019
71
This is correct. Gendry does not have a surname because he was not a "true" bastard, in that he was never accepted or acknowledged (or even known of) by his father.
Robert definitely was aware of Gendry. He paid the best blacksmith in Kings Landing double to take Gendry in as an apprentice,
Yeah but that would be another good reason to land there, to get money. Euron does beat her army in the show there, I think the same would happen. I really think they had her take Casterly Rock because GRRM told them it would happen. It was weird that she lands in the east but fights so far west. In the books things were seemingly lining up for Dany to land west, by traveling east, either circumventing the planet or some bermuda triangle shit, but it appears George dropped that when he chose not to do the five year gap he had wanted to.
That makes a lot of sense, actually. Book Tyrion likely wouldn't be aware of the occupation by Euron of the West coast (or at least the extent of it and how powerful Euron has become).
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,776
Yeah but only Jon would have a chance of stopping her. She will definitely not listen to Tyrion (at this point after he's shit the bed), not Bran (she has yet to learn about his All Seeing but I doubt he has enough seay even with facts) and definitely not Brienne. She has no sway over Dany. And how invested is Jon in saving Jaime's life? After he reveals Cersei is betraying them there's not much for him to do except join Dany's Westerosi Avengers
I can see Tyrion stepping down as hand of the king for his brother. I can’t see him being cool with Dany killing him.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,064
Robert definitely was aware of Gendry. He paid the best blacksmith in Kings Landing double to take Gendry in as an apprentice,
Shit, yeah, you're right. I forgot about that part. Good call. Still, he wasn't an "acknowledged" bastard the way someone like Jon or Edric Storm was.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,776
I mean everyone literally preparing to fight ice zombies, are hanging with multiple people who have literally come back from the dead, one of whom has the power to make their sword spontaneously combust, there's also the dragons. I think the people who matter are pretty bought into the fact that magic is back in the world. Like there's some major limitations to all the magic ofc no one's casting gandalf spells. But everyone is too busy playing the game of thrones to focus on the game of "hey there's fucking zombies on the way we need to move past our differences and come up with a plan."


Damn that's actually a good point.


Watch they "For the watch" Jon again before he even gets the chance to fight the whitewalkers. I hate this fucking show. This amount of anxiety dude. Like I know shit's gonna go wrong as it always does, I can only take solace in the fact that Arya commissioned a chekhov's gun, which may ensure her survival. :|
Does he make it spontaneously combust? I always thought he sparked it?
 
Mar 25, 2019
71
Shit, yeah, you're right. I forgot about that part. Good call. Still, he wasn't an "acknowledged" bastard the way someone like Jon or Edric Storm was.
Yep! Exactly. I thought he was born in Kings Landing, but I saw someone suggest that his surname would have been 'Hill'. Do we know for a fact that Gendry was born in the West?
 
Oct 27, 2017
14,166
Why would the harp be there? Who in their right mind would bring it and put it there?
A long held book theory and that would be Ned Stark. There's a lot of support for the theory such that I'd be shocked if it doesn't happen. Jon dreams too much about the crypts of Winterfell in the books and something being down there for him.

On a separate note, everytime Euron is on screen I keep expecting him to suddenly transform into Show Euron. But, he's still just a brazen, cocky idiot in the show.