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bye

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,418
Phoenix, AZ
Disappointing they didn't capitalize on that then to show Jorah to try and make amends. Hope the books at least touch on that if they ever come.

this episode should've been at least 70 minutes. theres just so many character interactions we needed fleshed out and they only really had time for a couple lines per. and there would be any time for that next week because all 58 mins will be devoted to Jon's parentage drama and Jaime. after ep3, half of them will be dead and the rest might be splitting up again.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
bh9fov44dhs21.png
 

RestEerie

Banned
Aug 20, 2018
13,618
just wondering, can the white walkers cross the narrow seas unto Essos, Volantis and other 'tropical' lands? So far, the north seems to be suited for them. While places like King's Landings will eventually covered in snow too when the real winter comes, are there winter season in those 'tropical lands' too?
 

SolidChamp

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,867
this episode should've been at least 70 minutes. theres just so many character interactions we needed fleshed out and they only really had time for a couple lines per. and there would be any time for that next week because all 58 mins will be devoted to Jon's parentage drama and Jaime. after ep3, half of them will be dead and the rest might be splitting up again.

I feel cheated because we were lead to believe that the entire season would be epic in length across all 6 episodes.

Like, why the fuck isn't every episode at least 90 minutes?
 

Apathy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,992
That beric/tormund scene was so fucking dark I couldn't see shit until the flaming sword came out
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
Lyanna's tomb being snuck into the background when Jon is absorbing what he just found out was masterful cinematography

I'm torn on the series' cinematography. There are a lot of great shots, but there's also a lot of characters walking around each other in unnatural and nonsensical ways to make it happen. Sam's bumbling was a plausible excuse to draw Jon into the right spot. On the other hand, the Sansa-Tyrion scene was pretty blatant in that regard (although not nearly as egregious as parts of the Red Wedding, where I found the stage direction enormously distracting).
 

Fosko

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,955
Very disappointing episode, it felt like a bad hollywood blockbuster just like s7. The dialogue was horrible.

The whole dragon thing felt like a mix of the Fast and the Furious and Aladdin.
 

Dragon1893

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,446
Interviewer: Outside of Jon's status as the heir to the Iron Throne, and outside of the fact that Sam does not believe in Daenerys' worthiness as a leader, why do you feel Sam believes Jon is the right person to govern Westeros?

John Bradley(Sam's actor):Aside from those two things, which are very important, I think you can look at it from a purely romantic point of view, if you like. Sam knows Jon really well. He knows his heart is in the right place. He knows he does things for the right reasons. He has a very strict moral code that he adheres to as much as he can. Sometimes he makes hard decisions. He never takes any decision lightly. He tries to do everything for the right reasons. That's the romantic view. If you want a more cynical version, of what's under the surface? Sam always has had a habit of manipulating Jon. He's manipulated him on so many other occasions. The reason he manipulates him in the past is to keep Gilly and Baby Sam safe. He manipulated him to be the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch because that was the best chance of getting Gilly and Baby Sam out of Castle Black and into the Citadel. If Jon is in a position of power, he thinks he can work on Jon to make as safe a life as possible for the people he cares the most about in the world. It's a little cynical, but I do think Sam is so hyper-intelligent and calculated that any plot he can scheme and any route he can take to keep Gilly and Baby Sam safe, he's going to do it. If Jon is in a position of power, then he can grease those wheels more easily. Those are two ways of looking at it. Take your pick!

Sam believes in Jon Snow. Jon Snow believes in Daenerys. Can Sam ever get on board with Jon's vision, or in his mind, has Daenerys crossed a line she can never come back from?

In terms of Sam telling Jon about his true claim to the throne, I think it was hurried along by what Daenerys told him. I think he definitely sees Daenerys as unstable, as a volatile character, as somebody who is determined to succeed without a real moral compass. She'll kill people for a minor act of disobedience. I think Sam is very wary of her now and sees how dangerous she can be — not just for Jon Snow, but also in terms of the entire Seven Kingdoms. We could have a Mad Queen here. Sam knows enough about history to know what people who are slightly unhinged and slightly unbalanced are like when they're in charge, and the damage they can cause. Sam has learned from the mistakes of history. He's never going to come around to Daenerys. He's too wise for that. He's too wary and suspicious of her now. If she's going to be incredibly destructive and volatile, then she could get the Seven Kingdoms into a worse position if she continues to be unyielding, impulsive and so violent. If she's going to continue dealing with things in such a violent way, then he can only see dark days ahead if she's on the throne. His desire to tell Jon about his claim to the Iron Throne is all but informed by his desire to make sure some of those dark days of the Mad King and the past reigns of imbalance never continue into the future. Sam has an agenda now. He definitely has an agenda.

--------

Daaaaamn. These are some harsh words.

Killing Sam's father and brother is really going to bite Dany in the ass, if anyone can turn Jon against her it's him. John Bradley is right, Sam has 2 things going for him, not only does Jon trust him and love him like a brother, Sam is very inteligent and now that he has a grudge against Dany he's going to drive a wedge between them.
I hope things don't escalate to a point where she ends up roasting Sam, I'd like to see him live through this.
 

iRAWRasaurus

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,729
this episode should've been at least 70 minutes. theres just so many character interactions we needed fleshed out and they only really had time for a couple lines per. and there would be any time for that next week because all 58 mins will be devoted to Jon's parentage drama and Jaime. after ep3, half of them will be dead and the rest might be splitting up again.
I mention the same thing to my friend after we watched it. There def could be more interactions between characters meeting again or for the first time.
 

Viva

Member
Nov 1, 2017
294
I'm sure Dany killing Sam's family will be an issue but it really shouldn't be. Khaleesi did not do much wrong in the way she handled that situation - Sam and Jon should both be aware of that at this point.
 

James Darmody

Member
Nov 22, 2018
191
Does anyone have a strong grasp on how the other characters even feel about Bran at the moment? Do they actually believe he has magical powers or do they think he's just weird and crazy after being beyond the wall for so long?

Its like every time he tells someone something prophetic or intimately insightful, they stare at him for 2 seconds and then go on about their business, and I can't tell what we as the viewer are supposed to take from it. Is he trying to give them info but they are ignoring him because they think he's crazy? Or is he just so cryptic and distant that they don't know what to think?

It feels like at this point, they should be consulting with Bran and asking him what to do about x, y, z. But he's mostly just being left to himself while everyone else goes about fussing with each other, which leads me to believe everyone just thinks he is crazy and don't take him seriously. But Jon believes in wargs because he was attacked by one. And to that point, Bran could easily prove his abilities by warging, if proof is what any of these people wanted.

Idk. It's frustrating because magic is an element of the show now but without knowing what people actually believe about it, it still doesn't feel properly meshed into plotting. Is everyone still a skeptic or have people bought into magic again?

John Bradley (Samwell), in a recent interview with Joanna Robinson on Vanity Fair, described Bran as having an eerieness and an element of darkness about him. Bran was so distant that it felt like he was talking to him from the other side of a brick wall and that there was no connection between them when they spoke. He also said it felt like they were connecting with something they're not supposed to.

Bran's stillness and separation works well with Sam's energy and lends well to an interesting dynamic between the two.

That's how Sam sees Bran. Not sure about the others. We learned last season that Sansa and Arya consulted him before LF's demise. So I'm assuming his sisters (former sisters? Lol), at the very least, believe him.
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,312
America
100% agree. The D&Ds started out doing an extremely faithful adaptation of a book series and now the team is basically forced to write their own ASoIaF fanfic in realtime, with the largest stakes possible for a TV show. I'm sure a lot of this season will revert back to season 7 level stupid action movie shit (it pretty much needs to given where we're at in the story), but this episode was at least a reminder of what the show was when it was at its best, so kudos to them.

and it doesn't spoil the books this way ;)
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
I'm sure Dany killing Sam's family will be an issue but it really shouldn't be. Khaleesi did not do much wrong in the way she handled that situation - Sam and Jon should both be aware of that at this point.
When Robert Baratheon conquered the kingdoms he didn't decide what to do with his captured enemies until he won the war.
They had options, bending the knee, taking the black etc. But the key thing here being that decisions were made at the tail end of the war.
I think she could have done something similar, maybe have the Lord executed, e.g Randyll. But have their successor taken prisoner until a final decision is made.
Tyrion and Varys weren't being critical for no reason, they knew this would bring consequences.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
The truth is, people aren't going to put all of their issues aside at the face of doom.
Call it idiocy, but we see this example every day in our own lifetime.

And Sam and all the northerners acting like dumbfuck. Sam got almost gutted by a white walker once but now he's trying to get jon to overthrow dany because of some technicality.
More than a technicality to be fair.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
Yeah Sam suddenly caring about his Dad is rather stupid.
It's not though, Sam took his dad's death fairly well..all things considering.
Man lost his chance to prove his cunt of a father wrong, it's complicated that way.
His brother though? That fucked him up. Did you lot honestly expect him to just be cool with this?
It's just so careless knowing that a marriage alliance which is so obvious solves this issue straight away.
It's not that easy, would it be the Reign of Dany or Jon?
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
52,910
The truth is, people aren't going to put all of their issues aside at the face of doom.
Call it idiocy, but we see this example every day in our own lifetime.

True, but you can portray that kind of conflict in a believable way. Sansa immediately and blatantly treating Dany like utter shit in front of everyone is stupid and its not believable. Especially when you consider the position they are in.


This is the same girl who over the past few season has learned to "play the game" from Littlefinger and got so good at it that she outplayed him last season. Not only did she outplay him, but she was able to fool Littlefinger to his face by faking emotions. All of this happening towards a person who sold her to a sadist and betrayed her whole family for years. A betrayal that resulted in the deaths of her Brother, Father, and Mother. Yet she still played her role perfectly and never gave anything away. Thats not even mentioning all the times we watched her keep her emotions in check while being a prisoner at the Red Keep. Being polite even to those she utterly loathed and had every right to hate.



But now suddenly she is so inept at keeping her emotions in check in for any length of time in order to pretend to be nice to someone who has literally never done her wrong? That is fucking stupid no matter how you wanna slice it. Sansa has shown herself to be smarter than this and yet suddenly she isn't. Thats just bad writing.


TL;DR

Sansa having suspicions about Dany is not a problem.


Her being openly petty and not even trying to be polite given everything we have seen from her character over the last 7 seasons is stupid.
 

James Darmody

Member
Nov 22, 2018
191
Yeah Sam suddenly caring about his Dad is rather stupid.

I thought it was stupid too but John Bradley made an interesting point that Sam cares because he has unresolved issues with Randyll that he won't necessarily get to resolve. He talks about how people grieve harder with the death of parents who they have strained relationships with more than parents who they have a good relationship with. Sam is sad but can move on knowing Dickon is okay. The Dickon news is what sets him over the edge. An interesting point he made was about looking to Dany and especially Jorah for some sort of comfort but they give him nothing. They're cold and detached.

Basically says Sam had a mental breakdown because he can't process this news all at once.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
True, but you can portray that kind of conflict in a believable way. Sansa immediately and blatantly treating Dany like utter shit in front of everyone is stupid and its not believable. Especially when you consider the position they are in.


This is the same girl who over the past few season has learned to "play the game" from Littlefinger and got so good at it that she outplayed him last season. Not only did she outplay him, but she was able to fool Littlefinger to his face by faking emotions. All of this happening towards a person who sold her to a sadist and betrayed her whole family for years. A betrayal that resulted in the deaths of her Brother, Father, and Mother. Yet she still played her role perfectly and never gave anything away. Thats not even mentioning all the times we watched her keep her emotions in check while being a prisoner at the Red Keep. Being polite even to those she utterly loathed and had every right to hate.



But now suddenly she is so inept at keeping her emotions in check in for any length of time in order to pretend to be nice to someone who has literally never done her wrong? That is fucking stupid no matter how you wanna slice it. Sansa has shown herself to be smarter than this and yet suddenly she isn't. Thats just bad writing.


TL;DR

Sansa having suspicions about Dany is not a problem.


Her being openly petty and not even trying to be polite given everything we have seen from her character over the last 7 seasons is stupid.
You right, she's being far too confrontational when she should be more composed.

That's where the dilemma that's currently presented would be interesting. I just thought they would've left it for after the battle. The way Sam has framed it in the crypts is such a good way to go about it but like others have said it seems like so much for Jon to take on before battle.
Yeah, I don't know how Jon's hair isn't greying with all of these growing concerns. And the battle hasn't even started, lol.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
52,910
You right, she's being far too confrontational when she should be more composed.

Exactly. If she had a history of being impudent despite her situation (Like Arya has been at times) then it would be believable, but Sansa has proven herself to be very good at keeping her emotions and feelings in check under pressure. This new behavior from her is out of character and its annoying. Especially considering how much emotional growth we have seen from her in the last 3 seasons.


And it becomes even more ridiculous when you consider that Dany has never personally wronged Sansa and has come to save their lives. She can feign trust and emotions with someone who sold her like a slave like Littlefinger, but can't even pretend to be cordial to Dany who is trying to help her? And we are supposed to see no problem with that? Really?
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
And Sam and all the northerners acting like dumbfuck. Sam got almost gutted by a white walker once but now he's trying to get jon to overthrow dany because of some technicality.

It's harder to understand the threat of something till you've actually faced or seen it, and the Notherners have always been a stubborn and prideful bunch (some call it honourable). It's what gets them killed all the time. And Sam isn't really doing anything wrong. Jon is ultimately the rightful heir to the throne, and it doesn't necessarily have to be some heated thing between Dany and Jon, although it might be.

It's weird that given the world we live in and current geo political ongoings, as well as large scale prejudices, racism, bigotry etc, some on here actually think the actions of some of the public in GoT are actually uncharacteristically stupid or unrealistic. Never underestimate the ineptitude of people.
 
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James Darmody

Member
Nov 22, 2018
191
Could Bran have revealed something to Sansa that's made her act like this towards Dany? It's the only explanation I can think of that makes sense. Sorry to speculate like this, I hate doing this. But like you've said her animosity just doesn't make sense.


Exactly. If she had a history of being impudent despite her situation (Like Arya has been at times) then it would be believable, but Sansa has proven herself to be very good at keeping her emotions and feelings in check under pressure. This new behavior from her is out of character and its annoying. Especially considering how much emotional growth we have seen from her in the last 3 seasons.


And it becomes even more ridiculous when you consider that Dany has never personally wronged Sansa and has come to save their lives. She can feign trust and emotions with someone who sold her like a slave like Littlefinger, but can't even pretend to be cordial to Dany who is trying to help her? And we are supposed to see no problem with that? Really?
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
In all the bits from the trailers and now ep2 teaser we see that Jon won't wear his breastplate much longer. That's not normal. Even in the battle he isn't wearing it.

I think next episode he will give Sansa the chance to choose herself, let her be queen in the north, so he gives up his title. And of course Sansa refuses to bend the knee.

So the scene we saw of Dany at Dragonstone is very likely to be in ep2, with Dany bailing out, but leaving her army behind to help.

I think there is a chance for her to do something that will allow them to support her: if they lose the north, as they flee south, she comes in to save the day on Drogon.

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

Unless those armored in ice are just the people of the north and not the white walkers lol
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
52,910
Could Bran have revealed something to Sansa that's made her act like this towards Dany? It's the only explanation I can think of that makes sense. Sorry to speculate like this, I hate doing this. But like you've said her animosity just doesn't make sense.

I mean....maybe?


But not showing the audience this would be unusual for the show. Literally everytime Bran has ever revealed anything to anyone it was shown to us the viewers so we could stay in the loop. But this would be the opposite of that trend. From our perspective Sansa is behaving like an asshole for pretty much no reason and is not even trying to hide it. Which like I said given the context and her history makes no sense at all.


I almost feel like that there was some kind of precursor to this plotline that just never made it into the show. Like in the books Sansa is going to hate Dany at this point, but in the books it will make sense because the books will be able to properly explain everything and set everything up. And that somehow Sansa disliking Dany is a central part of the plot so they can;t just NOT include it. But the same time the show maybe just doesn't have that kind of time to properly set it up so they just shoehorned it into the show. Sense be damned.


Idk. I just know I don't like it because of how stupid it makes Sansa look after we watched her grow into an intelligent badass over the past 3 seasons. Its like they threw it all away for the sake of catfight drama.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,102
Idk. I just know I don't like it because of how stupid it makes Sansa look after we watched her grow into an intelligent badass over the past 3 seasons. Its like they threw it all away for the sake of catfight drama.

Eh. I feel like they want her to have turned into an intelligent badass but in practice they sacrificed her arc at every turn (most of the time for someone else's progression instead) plus just haven't succeeded. She still comes across and immature and awful to me now. It wasn't terribly intelligent to hold out info from Jon about Littlefinger's forces coming. It worked out, sure, but it was a shit fucking move and far from intelligent. And then the confirmation she basically fell for Littlefinger's shit last season until Bran told her kinda seals it for me.

Sansa's one of my least favorite characters in the entire show and that sucks because she could have been one of the better ones.
 

Byakuya769

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
2,718
Could Bran have revealed something to Sansa that's made her act like this towards Dany? It's the only explanation I can think of that makes sense. Sorry to speculate like this, I hate doing this. But like you've said her animosity just doesn't make sense.

"Sansa, we don't have time for you to show your intelligence instead of Arya's exposition, the writers are hacks."
 

rashbeep

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,456
This is the same girl who over the past few season has learned to "play the game" from Littlefinger and got so good at it that she outplayed him last season. Not only did she outplay him, but she was able to fool Littlefinger to his face by faking emotions.

Lol she didn't outplay anybody she was getting successfully trolled by Littlefinger until she asked Bran what was up who told her everything
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478
Arya and Sansa would have killed each other over dumb shit had Bran not tipped them off. S7 was all kinds of dumb.
 
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