Game of Thrones S8 |OT2| Please do not post spoilers here - assume all episodes have been leaked - spoiler tag all future episode speculation

UltraMagnus · May 13, 2019

pants said:
Dany didn't just suddenly go crazy, she was pushed over the edge by having her closest friends, family, and advisors either killed or betray her. Her own identity and rightful claim was challenged in the only way it could ever matter. Its unimaginable psychological stress.

Also remember Cersei's family butchered and usurped her own family, and then Cersei went ahead and betrayed her when the fate of the world was at stake, and then she is supposed to wait around for and respect a surrender?

I totally understand being upset about a cool character turning to mass murder, this is a totally expected and humane reaction to the ending! But its not like she was always going to snap one day.

She was pushed.

Even if that was the case, she'd likely open by just burning the whole damn city and killing Tyrion to start with.

No, she's perfectly lucid and composed enough to actually plot and execute the best battle strategy she's ever had in the show, that was masterful.

She just decides to go crazy when she's basically achieving her life long ambition. She wins and now that the mission is accomplished she decides now to go looney tunes. Totally not a plot contrivance because the final episode needs a villain with Cersei out.

Also nice that she doesn't go crazy when her own brother plots to kill her, is raped on her wedding night, the Dothraki try to kill her (several times), Jorah betrays her, several assassins try to kill her, she loses a dragon to the Night King and then has to face its undead corpse, her husband dies, her actual child dies, comes within inches of being an undead zombie multiple times, etc. etc. she has the mental fortitude to get through all that, but she just can't fucking cope without Missandei and their weekly sex gossip about Greyworm.

Sinder · May 13, 2019

jett said:
No, bro.

It's time to face reality. The comparison GoT deserves is Dexter.

Nah.

Corky · May 13, 2019

Barry Sandwich said:
Game of Thrones just rushed stuff - causing a few scenes that stretched suspension of disbelief and didn't give some plot points time to develop.

Lost ending retroactively trashed everything that came before it and bailed on all of the compelling mysteries the show set up because it was apparently all about characters and some vague sense of spiritualism.

Lost finale was literally all about celebrating what came before it lol. They answered pretty much everything too. What exactly did it trash? This is a much worse final season

Budi · May 13, 2019

shaneo632 said:
8 seasons and more money than God and they still can't make characters riding dragons not look like goofy crap.

At least the direction in this episode was much better than the previous battle. Should've hired this guy for both.

Sapochnik did direct The Long Night too, if that is what you're referring to.

shaneo632 · May 13, 2019

Budi said:
Sapochnik did direct The Long Night, if that is what you're referring to.

Oh wow, the gulf of quality between the two episodes is staggering.

danm999 · May 13, 2019

CloudWolf said:
Weird realization: The only meaningful effect of Jaime going to Winterfell is that he had sex with Brienne

He didn't have any notable participation in the battle, his trial didn't mean shit and Bran had pretty much already forgiven him a long time ago. Literally his only (sort of) meaningful contribution to the story this season is that Brienne is no longer a virgin.

She's going to be pregnant and give birth to a son named Redemption

Lol

fanboi · May 13, 2019

I wonder how they will handle Drogo if

Dany dies or if Dany go against Jon... like he was more or less a F16 with unlimited ammo

Dreams-Visions · May 13, 2019

Shugga said:
Even if Mad Queen made any fucking sense, give me ONE good reason she attacks civilians rather than the soldiers and the red keep. I'm waiting.

well there's a quandary.

I don't know that looking for reason within madness is a helpful or realistic goal. She is explicitly NOT being reasonable. She lost her shit and snapped. It's not a reasonable or premeditated act. She raged and kept raging. Her own people would have died too had Jon not pulled them back.

She's gone and I don't think she's coming back. Not from that kind of break. 👋🏽

CloudWolf · May 13, 2019

emag said:
No, in the post-ep, D&D claimed Jon breaking off the make out session was the trigger for MAD QUEEN.

I gotta love that D&D say: "She decided to make it personal"

Sure D&D, she made it personal by going after the civilians instead of the actual people that murdered Missandei and Rhaegal.

Jecht · May 13, 2019

jett said:
No, bro.

It's time to face reality. The comparison GoT deserves is Dexter.

Dexter has 1.5 seasons that are even decent. The rest of the show is bad so I'm not sure why anyone expected a good end there in the first place.

GOT's lows aren't as low and it's highs are astronomically higher. Dexter is forgettable, abysmal television.

EatChildren · May 13, 2019

emag said:
No, in the post-ep, D&D claimed Jon breaking off the make out session was the trigger for MAD QUEEN.

So I guess the show now has an anti-incest agenda. But then Jamie's heel turn...is that pro incest? How do I keep track of my incest?

But yes, that's what I figured, something along those lines. I don't know why people think the bells "made her crazy". Probably the way it's framed and shot. Which to me showed nothing in the ways of crazy, so much accentuated a key narrative point where Dany was to make either a sympathetic or violent choice on how to move forward. The bells just accentuate that plot point rather that trigger something in her.

Kinsei · May 13, 2019

SurrenderDorothy said:
So Dany is an incel? Lol, D&D stop this madness.

Pretty much. They also said that her reaction to the death of her abuser was a hint towards how terrible she'd become.

D&D really need to learn when to shut up.

danm999 · May 13, 2019

emag said:
No, in the post-ep, D&D claimed Jon breaking off the make out session was the trigger for MAD QUEEN.

It's ironic. Dany friendzoned Ser Jorah for years.

The moment Jon friendzones her...

Deleted member 2809 · May 13, 2019

CloudWolf said:
I gotta love that D&D say: "She decided to make it personal"

Sure D&D, she made it personal by going after the civilians instead of the actual people that murdered Missandei and Rhaegal.

Now it's personal Cersei, I will burn all those civilians you don't give a shit about !

Acorn · May 13, 2019

fanboi said:
I wonder how they will handle Drogo if

Dany dies or if Dany go against Jon... like he was more or less a F16 with unlimited ammo

He won't attack jon because he has dragon blood too iirc

OutofMana · May 13, 2019

Barry Sandwich said:
Game of Thrones just rushed stuff - causing a few scenes that stretched suspension of disbelief and didn't give some plot points time to develop.

Lost ending retroactively trashed everything that came before it and bailed on all of the compelling mysteries the show set up because it was apparently all about characters and some vague sense of spiritualism.

All that you mentioned applies to GoT except for the latter half. People were disappointed about the mysteries not all being explained but at least the characters had meaningful consistent character arcs. They weren't abandoned for the sake of moving the plot forward. So yeah, you're right, they rushed stuff and it greatly suffered for it. Which in my opinion is worse than not liking how a show ends because you disagree with the ending. This shit is Dexter levels of bad.

Anomander · May 13, 2019

Shugga said:
Even if Mad Queen made any fucking sense, give me ONE good reason she attacks civilians rather than the soldiers and the red keep. I'm waiting.

To instill fear throughout the seven kingdom to not mess with her claim to the throne? Not that I say it's a good reason. The whole season has been one dumb plot point after another.

danm999 · May 13, 2019

EatChildren said:
So I guess the show now has an anti-incest agenda. But then Jamie's heel turn...is that pro incest? How do I keep track of my incest?

Incest is relative.

Sorry

Sinder · May 13, 2019

Dreams-Visions said:
well there's a quandary.

I don't know that looking for reason within madness is a helpful or realistic goal. She is explicitly NOT being reasonable. She lost her shit and snapped. It's not a reasonable or premeditated act. She raged and kept raging. Her own people would have died too had Jon not pulled them back.

She's gone and I don't think she's coming back. Not from that kind of break. 👋🏽

Exactly.

It's a psychotic break. Full blown. There's no logic or reason, her brain snapped and with that much power and no mental institutions around, she's never coming back.

fanboi · May 13, 2019

Acorn said:
He won't attack jon because he has dragon blood too iirc

I was thinking that as well.

Seductivpancakes · May 13, 2019

danm999 said:
It's ironic. Dany friendzoned Ser Jorah for years.

The moment Jon friendzones her...

Yeah but they banged. All Jorah got was a hug.

She lost her mind cause Jon is ghosting her.

zma1013 · May 13, 2019

I don't think I've ever seen so many characters done wrong in a single episode of this show before. Tyrion, Varys, Jaime, Cersei, Arya, The Hound. Shit they did made no sense to who they were or what the became.

Just one example:

Since when was The Hound obssessed with killing his brother? Yes he hates him and would kill him if he had the chance but to go on a suicide mission makes zero sense. There are better ways to get the Cleganebowl.

"The Hound gets captured in Westeros somewhere for abandoning a previous King Joffery and is brought back to face trial and he asks for trial by combat."

This sets up the Cleganebowl in a more natural, convincing way that leverages his past actions and previous history of the show.

But instead we get him going completely out of character and doing a suicide run.

Visanideth · May 13, 2019

https://tv.avclub.com/westeros-faces-its-final-battle-on-the-penultimate-game-1834706949

Good take on the episode.

Mr.Awesome · May 13, 2019

The Clegane Bowl was fucking awesome. Managed to live up to the absurdly high expectations for it.

denx · May 13, 2019

Didn't A Dance with Dragons end with Dany hearing a voice in her head telling her to "be a dragon"?

With all the bullshit she had to go through in Mereen, I wouldn't be surprised if Winds of Winter is about her descent into madness and giving in to her worst instincts, with she becoming one of the main villains for A Dream of Spring.

I'm sure this is the direction GRRM is going in the books, and I have faith he'll handle Dany's turn much better than D&D.

CloudWolf · May 13, 2019

danm999 said:
It's ironic. Dany friendzoned Ser Jorah for years.

The moment Jon friendzones her...

I'm so happy Ser Jorah isn't alive for this. Poor man would've died of an heart attack.

By the way, Grey Worm was surprisingly willing to go along with the murdering of innocents. I like how Jeremy Jahns says "It's like Palpatine popped up behind them and whispered 'Execute Order 66' in their ears"

denx said:
Didn't A Dance with Dragons end with Dany hearing a voice in her head telling her to "be a dragon"?

Nah, ADwD ended with her having a massive diarrhea attack on the plains and getting captured by Dothraki. Anyway, most book readers already assume Dany will become a villain, but it won't happen like this.

Seductivpancakes · May 13, 2019

At least Qyburn went out like the chump that he is.

Coyote Starrk · May 13, 2019

denx said:
Didn't A Dance with Dragons end with Dany hearing a voice in her head telling her to "be a dragon"?

With all the bullshit she had to go through in Mereen, I wouldn't be surprised if Winds of Winter is about her descent into madness and giving in to her worst instincts, with her becoming one of the main villains in A Dream of Spring.

I fully expect the book to be exactly that.

RDreamer · May 13, 2019

Real said:
Great read.

There's one big thing not mentioned here though that I think changes the writing even more. The ending was in charge, yes, but also D&D seem to subscribe to the new style of televisipn/TV writing that skips the 2nd act and also relies on twists and surprises.

If the ending were in charge and they were plotters they could easily lay the seeds to more peacefully transition the writing and make it there. They waited until the last minute though and didn't even recognize they should have taken the offer for more episodes when it wasn't meshing.

They thread talks about D&D plotting out the major things that had to happen and be seen, but they neglected then the major changes in character. Also it seems like they opted to ONLY do those scenes in some sort of mad dash to end.

Also it seems to me Martin's issue is he's both a planter and a pantser and it's raking forever to reconcile those both. He's a perfectionist.

Deleted member 8860 · May 13, 2019

mokeyjoe said:
Based on the constant suspicion she's faced her whole time in Westeros. Other places she's been she's been hoisted on people's shoulders and treated like a Messiah. In addition, she had been repeatedly told growing up and throughout her life that the people were eagerly waiting her return, and she would be treated as a liberator and loved for it, which wasn't the case. Given that, thanks to Varys, everyone also now knows Jon is the rightful heir, and her diminished armies wouldn't be able to compete with Westeros rallying around Jon, despite being mad she is correct that she would be unlikely to be able to hold on to her throne based on popular opinion. She'll always be seen as an invader and civil war would never be far away.

I HAVE A SON, YOU HAVE A DAUGHTER
WE'LL JOIN OUR HOUSES

(Except Jon is suddenly not okay with even a political marriage?)

EatChildren said:
I don't know why people think the bells "made her crazy".

It's just a meme. Right?

Dust · May 13, 2019

You know this feeling of saying or doing something that you shouldn't absolutely do? The most insane and irrational feeling?
Well Dany crossed the line.

The Unsent · May 13, 2019

emag said:
No, in the post-ep, D&D claimed Jon breaking off the make out session was the trigger for MAD QUEEN.

For me what matters more is what's shown in the show. Jon turning down Dany probably didn't cheer her up :) but a number of things put her over the edge.

UltraMagnus · May 13, 2019

danm999 said:
She's going to be pregnant and give birth to a son named Redemption

Lol

They totally had sex so she could birth a Lannister heir. The story basically seems to be set up so the major houses still have one legitimate heir or more.

Corky · May 13, 2019

In the books Tyrion is fucked up now and he will encourage her worst instincts

SurrenderDorothy · May 13, 2019

Seductivpancakes said:
At least Qyburn went out like the chump that he is.

Put respect on Qyburn's name. That man is the greatest engineer Planetos has ever seen lmao.

Corky said:
In the books Tyrion is fucked up now and he will encourage her worst instincts

Yeah, Tyrion is a vengeful guy in the books.

Visanideth · May 13, 2019

danm999 said:
It's ironic. Dany friendzoned Ser Jorah for years.

The moment Jon friendzones her...

Guys, this is stupid. It's really, really stupid.

They're not saying she went mad because she needed the sex. She saw everyone loving Jon and wanting him on the throne. She made an attempt to see if they could at least be together, if she could rule while using him as the catalyst for the people's love. If they couldn't love her, maybe they could love them.

He refuses her, and she doesn't for a moment cry or beg him to love her. Her mind is instantly at "then I will keep power with fear".

She's trying to use Jon. Jon doesn't matter to her nearly as much as she matters to him, and certainly he doesn't matter to her a tenth of what winning the throne does.

Barry Sandwich · May 13, 2019

Shugga said:
Even if Mad Queen made any fucking sense, give me ONE good reason she attacks civilians rather than the soldiers and the red keep. I'm waiting.

Because she's being parading across the wastes being embraced by people as Mother of Dragons.

She reaches Westeros and the people do not embrace her, her allies do not recognise her as queen, she sacrificed two dragons, lost her close advisor and was given terrible advice by her hand and essentially betrayed by everyone close to her except Jon, but he ultimately rejects their union. Plus a sprinkling of entitlement and mad genes.

It's not the stretch people online are making out imho.

Dream Machine · May 13, 2019

I liked when the hysterical woman and her army of savages massacred a city that had surrendered. Very cool, and not contrived in the least.

Deleted member 2802 · May 13, 2019

Seductivpancakes said:
At least Qyburn went out like the chump that he is.

Zombie do this.
No, Zombie smash

Coyote Starrk · May 13, 2019

emag said:
I HAVE A SON, YOU HAVE A DAUGHTER
WE'LL JOIN OUR HOUSES

(Except Jon is suddenly not okay with even a political marriage?)

With his Aunt? Yeah. I don't think you can really blame the guy.

UltraMagnus · May 13, 2019

Barry Sandwich said:
Because she's being parading across the wastes being embraced by people as Mother of Dragons.

She reaches Westeros and the people do not embrace her, her allies do not recognise her as queen, she sacrificed two dragons, lost her close advisor and was given terrible advice by her hand and essentially betrayed by everyone close to her except Jon. Plus a sprinkling of entitlement and mad genes.

It's not the stretch people online are making out imho.

Sansa really is the popular girl at the high school that doesn't want the new girl sitting with them.

SurrenderDorothy · May 13, 2019

Barry Sandwich said:
Because she's being parading across the wastes being embraced by people as Mother of Dragons.

She reaches Westeros and the people do not embrace her, her allies do not recognise her as queen, she sacrificed two dragons, lost her close advisor and was given terrible advice by her hand and essentially betrayed by everyone close to her except Jon. Plus a sprinkling of entitlement and mad genes.

It's not the stretch people online are making out imho.

Yeah, I was ready to dump all over this episode the minute it aired but a lot of this is explainable.

emag said:
I HAVE A SON, YOU HAVE A DAUGHTER
WE'LL JOIN OUR HOUSES

(Except Jon is suddenly not okay with even a political marriage?)

That marriage ship has sailed. Jon's not marrying his aunt lol.(Thank God)

darkwing · May 13, 2019

Sinder said:
Fantastic read. "The characters just weren't in charge anymore. The ending was."

it makes sense

Digital Dinosaur · May 13, 2019

All other criticisms aside, in retrospect I don't think it was ever intended that the bells signaled Dany just snapping at that moment.

I think it's clear when she sequestered herself for three days, and when she came out to tell Tyrion nothing matters now, she had already decided to do this. And Grey Worm was in on it. It was what they were talking about alone by the fire. The bells / any sign of King's Landing surrendering where only the signal to rampage. Not the catalyst.

Ironically I can buy Grey Worm going along with it most of all. His relationship with Missandei was a large part of what pulled him out of being a mindless, robotic slave soldier and taught him human emotion. He had a good reason for snapping and hating all these murderous foreigners of Westeros.

BossAttack · May 13, 2019

Corky said:
In the books Tyrion is fucked up now and he will encourage her worst instincts

Idk about that, he's grown through his travels to Mereen and his time as a slave. I don't think he'll encourage Dany's worst instincts.

metalslimer · May 13, 2019

I still cant get over how useless the whole white Walker plotline feels to the whole story now. Can one of the shows defenders please explain why after 8 seasons that plot really did amount to pretty much nothing in the overall happenings of the world.

skipgo · May 13, 2019

So there are many theories about various characters being pregnant after basically one night stands.
Do people have 100% success rate in this show's universe?

Seductivpancakes · May 13, 2019

shira said:
Zombie do this.
No, Zombie smash

Truest Frankenstein of all Frankensteins.

On that note, fucking lmao that the Hound easily cut through 4 of cersei's Queens guard.

Cersei has shit tier quality troops. Dany didn't need dragons to capture KL.

Poimandres · May 13, 2019

Wasn't a fan of the episode. The idea of Dany going full mad queen is fine... But the show didn't sell it. For the last couple of seasons this show is just stuff happening with no real build up. Events are either underwhelming, contrived, or don't ring true to the characters we know.

The dragon is the most valuable player. Didn't even need an army. Just one dragon to trash the armies, fleets etc. Kind of makes it seem a bit ridiculous the way the other dragons were put down so easily. Just one of many head scratchers.

Let's just hope the books are released one day for something potentially more satisfying.

pants · May 13, 2019

UltraMagnus said:
Even if that was the case, she'd likely open by just burning the whole damn city and killing Tyrion to start with.

No, she's perfectly lucid and composed enough to actually plot and execute the best battle strategy she's ever had in the show, that was masterful.

She just decides to go crazy when she's basically achieving her life long ambition. She wins and now that the mission is accomplished she decides now to go looney tunes. Totally not a plot contrivance because the final episode needs a villain with Cersei out.

Also nice that she doesn't go crazy when her own brother plots to kill her, Dothraki try to kill her, Jorah betrays her, several assassins try to kill her, she loses a dragon to the Night King and then has to face its undead corpse, her husband dies, her child dies, etc. etc. but she just can't fucking cope without Missandei and their weekly sex gossip about Greyworm.

Re-read what I wrote, then ask yourself if there is a meaningful difference between one bad thing happening and a whole string of the worst things happening that challenge a person's entire identity and support system.

Also in Dany's mind she got her prize, she won the throne, so she can do what she wants with it. Its not logical its emotional, and believable.

Being upset is understandable! But trying to pretend it doesnt make sense as presented means you haven't really thought about it or you are being willfully disengenuous.

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