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CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,624
The Clegane Bowl was the most god damn predictable shit, I'm not sure why it's getting any praise at all. It might have been a better pay off in early seasons when
the hound
was a central focus, but in the end it still would have been a predictable showdown. I thought
Dany's heel turn was nicely foreshadowed through out the past couple of seasons, so I was surprised to see people complaining about it, I guess some people really wanted their yuss queen moment.
The problem that people have isn't necessarily that Dany turned bad, that was pretty much expected by almost everybody, especially after the previous episode pretty much shouted it at you. The problem is the way it happened. Everybody was expecting Dany would just be extremely vicious and fierce in her attack, not that she would deliberately try to kill as many innocent civilians as possible after the battle was won.

The way it happened was never ever foreshadowed. Yeah, Dany could be unusually cruel in her punishments towards her enemies or people she thought have slighted her, but at no point would anyone go "Yeah, this is a person we can reasonably expect committing full-scale genocide". When she took flight with Drogon I expected her to directly go to the Red Keep, possibly murdering the people that Cersei had massed there to get to Cersei (something which is very blatantly set up in the previous episode), but nope, guess she had to murder hundreds of thousands frightened men, women and children first.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,780
A lot of people that are upset with Dany turning heel are just letting their inner fanboy get the best of them.

For years this has been foreshadowed and talked about as a legitimate possibility for when the show reached its climax, and now that we're actually here and it turns out to be actually true, people are now getting mad because their favorite protag didn't the traditional happy feel good conclusion they wanted.

The show's execution and pacing has been shit for the past 3 seasons, but Dany reaching her breaking point was actually the one good thing they were able to build upon this season. She struggled to gain acceptance, watched her dragons and the people she cared about die and also learned that she isn't actually the rightful heir to the throne. Through all that she still tries to be diplomatic by talking to her council, talking to the people she is at odds with and still ends up getting conspired against.

She even tells Jon that she can never gain the love and acceptance that he has with everyone, and the only alternative that she has was to rule with fear.

When she heard the bells, the white flag was already raised, she won, no resistance whatsoever. The only thing that happened at that moment was her deciding what kind of ruler she was going to be.

Solid episode loved it.
Yes!

I feel like her moment of heavy breathing wasn't just anger but also frustration, fear and sadness. She could have stopped with the bells, but she knew if she did she would never truly rule. She had to be the terrible conqueror to assert herself and she would never be able to turn back from that.

The only sad thing is that she didn't have to, she could have let Jon rule, but she needed to be queen. Always has.
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
A lot of people that are upset with Dany turning heel are just letting their inner fanboy get the best of them.

For years this has been foreshadowed and talked about as a legitimate possibility for when the show reached its climax, and now that we're actually here and it turns out to be actually true, people are now getting mad because their favorite protag didn't the traditional happy feel good conclusion they wanted.

The show's execution and pacing has been shit for the past 3 seasons, but Dany reaching her breaking point was actually the one good thing they were able to build upon this season. She struggled to gain acceptance, watched her dragons and the people she cared about die and also learned that she isn't actually the rightful heir to the throne. Through all that she still tries to be diplomatic by talking to her council, talking to the people she is at odds with and still ends up getting conspired against.

She even tells Jon that she can never gain the love and acceptance that he has with everyone, and the only alternative that she has was to rule with fear.

When she heard the bells, the white flag was already raised, she won, no resistance whatsoever. The only thing that happened at that moment was her deciding what kind of ruler she was going to be.

Solid episode loved it.
Perfect post. Sums up my feelings. Dany was burning shit every season since the first. This would of happened a lot sooner if the people that are now dead, weren't there to talk sense into her. She tried every approach but kept failing and losing what she loved along the way. Amazing episode.
 

mokeyjoe

Member
Dec 22, 2017
360
People saying she needs no reason because she's mad and psychotic are missing the point and honestly don't seem to understand madness/psychosis. The point isn't that it's totally unreasonable, the point is they are mad because their internal logic and reasoning is skewed. That it makes sense to them in a certain way. The Mad King tried to burn everyone down because from his perspective they were all coming for him, including his subjects.

There seems to be no reason even from her perspective, one moment she's sitting on top with everyone surrendering and her basically having what she always wanted. The next moment she's heading for the Red Keep, at this point it's still believable that she's going to Cersei and wants to personally kill her and get revenge. But then on her way she starts attacking common public.....like what? Where did that come from in that moment? And I'm talking about that particular moment, not things that happened several seasons ago and were reasonable.

I disagree. I think before she even goes into the fight she realises that she has lost the throne. It doesn't matter whether Jon wants it or not. They don't want her.

Her primary strategy in Essos was to have the people rise up and join her and overthrow their oppressors. She doesn't even have this any more, she is a foreign invader not a liberator. Her only leverage at this point is the dragon - do as I say or I'll destroy you. Without the people's support she feels they have also betrayed her - you're either with me or against me, mentality. Which has always been part of her character.
 

Maxim726x

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
13,066
A lot of people that are upset with Dany turning heel are just letting their inner fanboy get the best of them.

For years this has been foreshadowed and talked about as a legitimate possibility for when the show reached its climax, and now that we're actually here and now that it's actually true, people are now getting mad because their favorite protag didn't the traditional happy feel good conclusion they wanted.

The show's execution and pacing has been shit for the past 3 seasons, but Dany reaching her breaking point was actually the one good thing they were able to build upon this season. She struggled to gain acceptance, watched her dragons and the people she cared about die and also learned that she isn't actually the rightful heir to the throne. Through all that she still tries to be diplomatic by talking to her council, talking to the people she is at odds with and still ends up getting conspired against.

She even tells Jon that she can never gain the love and acceptance that he has with everyone, and the only alternative that she has was to rule with fear.

When she heard the bells, the white flag was already raised, she won, no resistance whatsoever. The only thing that happened at that moment was her deciding what kind of ruler she was going to be.

Solid episode loved it.

Agree with this... Mostly.

Still have a few steps to breach before she starts killing civilians with reckless abandon, though. As you say, mostly an issue with pacing.
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,503
The bells were like that part where you get to choose the good end or bad end.
Appropriate image I saw on Reddit
rNZwlXC_d.jpg
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,986
So it's pretty weird how the show decides to do the whole, "give up on your revenge Arya, it will make you a monster" thing...AFTER she kills the Frey's and baked them into pies right?

Yes, which is why I was so surprised that D&D actually realized that Arya was a character that had an arc.

That was a guess. Who wouldn't have seen it coming.

Yeah. I saw that shit coming a mile away, they telegraphed the shit out of it. The look on her face when she "agreed" with Tyrion said it all.
 

Chainshada

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,640
Please no more arya masterfully killing people in one move. Im pretty sure arya is done with all of that thanks to the hound anyway



Jon has seen for himself. He will not stand by and watch Dany be a tyrant

I think we're done with sansa and arya

Certainly done with bran

If he was written as he should be he would. I just think we're beyond that at this point and he'll still act like she can be saved. If him leaving Ghost was supposed to be him walking away from his Stark blood, they'll have Arya remind him, yet again, that they're family and that he's still a Stark. Gotta have those moments for the reacters.
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,622
they were cerceiis people, they had it coming. They chose cersei over dany, shit happens.

No, they were her people. What she did was absolutely insane and I would pull a kingslayer on her ass first opportunity I had if I were anyone close to her. Those folk were clueless bystanders...they did as they were commanded by those in charge, nothing more. Dany should have backed down, let the opposite side surrender and took prisoners from there.
 

Poimandres

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,869
Well Drogon is the one who was able to fly and eat and grow.
The other 2 had stunted growth because Dany kept them in that dungeon. It's more pronounced in the books, maybe the CG artists didn't want to have two different sized dragons or whatever.

He certainly looked extra beasty in this episode! It was nice to see some hardcore dragon action, I must admit. I still think the others got done dirty.
 

Deleted member 9100

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,076
Literally at the end of the last episode, Dany was willing to meet with Cersei in order to negotiate a surrender. In that short time she's gone from that to killing thousands of innocents including children after they've surrendered just because her friend was killed and Jon didn't sleep with her?

Makes absolutely no sense.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,986
GRRM always said the ending would be bittersweet ending. We got the bitter part. Now we have to wait and see what the sweet part is.

There's no way this isn't just a little taste of bitter. There will be a lot of bitterness next episode and maybe a little bit of sweet.

LOL. D&D don't understand the meaning of the word "bittersweet" or even "sweet." I await to be proven wrong, but I fully expect the ending to be a complete, goddamn, depression romp with a touch of nihilism.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,624
A lot of people that are upset with Dany turning heel are just letting their inner fanboy get the best of them.

For years this has been foreshadowed and talked about as a legitimate possibility for when the show reached its climax, and now that we're actually here and now that it's actually true, people are now getting mad because their favorite protag didn't the traditional happy feel good conclusion they wanted.

The show's execution and pacing has been shit for the past 3 seasons, but Dany reaching her breaking point was actually the one good thing they were able to build upon this season. She struggled to gain acceptance, watched her dragons and the people she cared about die and also learned that she isn't actually the rightful heir to the throne. Through all that she still tries to be diplomatic by talking to her council, talking to the people she is at odds with and still ends up getting conspired against.

She even tells Jon that she can never gain the love and acceptance that he has with everyone, and the only alternative that she has was to rule with fear.

When she heard the bells, the white flag was already raised, she won, no resistance whatsoever. The only thing that happened at that moment was her deciding what kind of ruler she was going to be.

Solid episode loved it.
Again, there's a difference between ruling through fear and being a genocidal maniac. Cersei blowing up the Sept was ruling through fear, Dany deliberately murdering the entire population of King's Landing is being a genocidal maniac. I mean, what's the point she's trying to get across here: Serve me or I will kill another half a million people?
 

Winterblink

Member
Oct 26, 2017
142
Heh, after watching last night's episode I'm curious again why the show's producer thought petting a wolf would be far too technically complex. :)
 

Greg NYC3

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,493
Miami
A lot of people that are upset with Dany turning heel are just letting their inner fanboy get the best of them.

For years this has been foreshadowed and talked about as a legitimate possibility for when the show reached its climax, and now that we're actually here and now that it's actually true, people are now getting mad because their favorite protag didn't the traditional happy feel good conclusion they wanted.

The show's execution and pacing has been shit for the past 3 seasons, but Dany reaching her breaking point was actually the one good thing they were able to build upon this season. She struggled to gain acceptance, watched her dragons and the people she cared about die and also learned that she isn't actually the rightful heir to the throne. Through all that she still tries to be diplomatic by talking to her council, talking to the people she is at odds with and still ends up getting conspired against.

She even tells Jon that she can never gain the love and acceptance that he has with everyone, and the only alternative that she has was to rule with fear.

When she heard the bells, the white flag was already raised, she won, no resistance whatsoever. The only thing that happened at that moment was her deciding what kind of ruler she was going to be.

Solid episode loved it.
I disagree. I think before she even goes into the fight she realises that she has lost the throne. It doesn't matter whether Jon wants it or not. They don't want her.

Her primary strategy in Essos was to have the people rise up and join her and overthrow their oppressors. She doesn't even have this any more, she is a foreign invader not a liberator. Her only leverage at this point is the dragon - do as I say or I'll destroy you. Without the people's support she feels they have also betrayed her - you're either with me or against me, mentality. Which has always been part of her character.
I don't disagree with these assessments or the overall arc the story has taken, my primary issue has been with the execution. D&D just compressed too much character development into too short a span and took obvious shortcuts to get to the ending they want. It's been painfully obvious felt for the last two seasons that all of the actions characters have taken are just plot points on a graph leading to pre-determined outcome rather than feeling like natural progression.

Well damn, this broke down what I was trying to say in a much better way.
 
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CampFreddie

A King's Landing
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,957
I just want to say that the dragon attack was executed incredibly badly.
Last episode she has to break off her attack because of the scorpions and let her entire fleet get wiped out.
But this time she just wipes them all out, despite using exactly the same tactics and generally flying low and straight at the scorpions.
It was just so unsatisfying to watch, because the show had previously shown us that these exact tactics would not work.
"I guess the scorpion crews kinda forgot about how to aim"

I was at least expecting some crazy acrobatics to outmanoeuvre the slow-turning scorpions, especially when we saw her dive from above. But no, she pulls out of the dive to swoop over the ships, the Iron fleet sees her in plenty of time, and so does the KL garrison, but they all miss because they used their full dead-eye meter to snipe Rhaegal and forgot to drink enough coffee to refresh their dead-eye core while they camped overnight.

Or maybe it was a meta comment on Dany. Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result, right?
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,022
LOL. D&D don't understand the meaning of the word "bittersweet" or even "sweet." I await to be proven wrong, but I fully expect the ending to be a complete, goddamn, depression romp with a touch of nihilism.

Well their ending is going to be roughly what GRRM's ending will be so if he says its gonna be bittersweet then I am gonna take him at his word until I see otherwise.


Though I wouldn't put it past D&D to mess up the real ending as well at this point.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
Heh, after watching last night's episode I'm curious again why the show's producer thought petting a wolf would be far too technically complex. :)
Because David Nutter sucks.

I just want to say that the dragon attack was executed incredibly badly.
Last episode she has to break off her attack because of the scorpions and let her entire fleet get wiped out.
But this time she just wipes them all out, despite using exactly the same tactics and generally flying low and straight at the scorpions.
It was just so unsatisfying to watch, because the show had previously shown us that these exact tactics would not work.
"I guess the scorpion crews kinda forgot about how to aim"

I was at least expecting some crazy acrobatics to outmanoeuvre the slow-turning scorpions, especially when we saw her dive from above. But no, she pulls out of the dive to swoop over the ships, the Iron fleet sees her in plenty of time, and so does the KL garrison, but they all miss because they used their full dead-eye meter to snipe Rhaegal and forgot to drink enough coffee to refresh their dead-eye core while they camped overnight.

Or maybe it was a meta comment on Dany. Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result, right?
Actually, the power displayed in this episode was executed fantastically, as it's more lore-friendly than the previous episode.
Drogon was actually fearsome here, fast and incredibly powerful. A lot like the loot train attack.
 

Olaf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,419
"Jaime is going to kill Cersei, lol it's obvious"

Laughing at the fools who still had hope for the writing.
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,550
They could have showed Dany being ruthless in other ways that would be more believable and require less of an extreme leap in her established character.

She could have haphazardly attacked the city to take out its forces with no consideration for collateral. She could have rounded up all of the remaining combatants and sent a message to people, scorching them all alive as execution. She didn't waver at all once she started. The single-handed genocide she commits where she's willing to kill her own forces as collateral will definitely earn her zero fealty and a sword to the heart.
 

Fuzzy

Completely non-threatening
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,130
Toronto
I just want to say that the dragon attack was executed incredibly badly.
Last episode she has to break off her attack because of the scorpions and let her entire fleet get wiped out.
But this time she just wipes them all out, despite using exactly the same tactics and generally flying low and straight at the scorpions.
It was just so unsatisfying to watch, because the show had previously shown us that these exact tactics would not work.
"I guess the scorpion crews kinda forgot about how to aim"

I was at least expecting some crazy acrobatics to outmanoeuvre the slow-turning scorpions, especially when we saw her dive from above. But no, she pulls out of the dive to swoop over the ships, the Iron fleet sees her in plenty of time, and so does the KL garrison, but they all miss because they used their full dead-eye meter to snipe Rhaegal and forgot to drink enough coffee to refresh their dead-eye core while they camped overnight.

Or maybe it was a meta comment on Dany. Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result, right?
Euron should've been manning the scorpion himself.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 2802

Community Resetter
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
33,729
Dude, you're one of the most prolific posters in the leak thread. Don't post spoilers and pass it off as your predictions.
On the one hand once the episode starts I don't know what you can do to prevent people from discussing since it's released VOD. You are free to watch the show at your own pace/speed once it's released at 9:00 PM

posted @ 9:38
~9:45 dany goes crazy in the airing

On the other hand it's a dick move.

Up to the mods I guess if they want to swing the sword
 

btkadams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,317
I can get over the leap of dragon lady all of a sudden snapping and killing civilians....maybe. But if Arya doesn't kill someone in the next episode like the "faceless man" trained her, I'll be very disappointed with her arc. Bran's complete uselessness better be redeemed as well. I just feel like the showrunners have made so much of what happened in the earlier seasons completely pointless.
 

Seductivpancakes

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,790
Brooklyn
One the one hand once the episode starts I don't know what you can do to prevent people from discussing since it's released VOD. You are free to watch the show at your own pace/speed once it's released at 9:00 PM

posted @ 9:38
~9:45 dany goes crazy in the airing

On the other hand it's a dick move.

Up to the mods I guess if they want to swing the sword
Mods should follow Queen Dany's example, and burn em all.
 

Deleted member 17402

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,125
I don't share the same enthusiasm for the Clegane fight as many of you. I found it incredibly unsatisfying because the mountain is just a zombie of his former self. Whoever Clegane is fighting is just an impossible-to-kill creature that isn't his brother. His brother died in season 4, so I found nothing redeeming about it.
 

skipgo

Member
Dec 28, 2018
2,568
I hope Arya's entire participation in the next episode is being killed in a surprise return by Jacquen
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
I just want to say that the dragon attack was executed incredibly badly.
Last episode she has to break off her attack because of the scorpions and let her entire fleet get wiped out.
But this time she just wipes them all out, despite using exactly the same tactics and generally flying low and straight at the scorpions.
It was just so unsatisfying to watch, because the show had previously shown us that these exact tactics would not work.
"I guess the scorpion crews kinda forgot about how to aim"

I was at least expecting some crazy acrobatics to outmanoeuvre the slow-turning scorpions, especially when we saw her dive from above. But no, she pulls out of the dive to swoop over the ships, the Iron fleet sees her in plenty of time, and so does the KL garrison, but they all miss because they used their full dead-eye meter to snipe Rhaegal and forgot to drink enough coffee to refresh their dead-eye core while they camped overnight.

Or maybe it was a meta comment on Dany. Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result, right?

Worst is she actually managed to take the city on her own without any civilians dying, but we are supposed to think they wouldn't support her for whatever reason. What the heck did she do that would make the people hate her? Especially when every other kingdom wants Cersei dead. Everyone in KL should have wanted Cersei dead by now.

We' also supposed to think that they would believe Jon is Rhaegar's heir and want him king for some reason? The guy is known as a bastard, friend of wildings, supported by a red priest who controlled Stannis.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
why did Jamie have to kill Cersei. he already knighted brienne and helped save the world and Cersei wasn't hurting anyone at that point.
 
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