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Game of Thrones S8 |OT2| Please do not post spoilers here - assume all episodes have been leaked - spoiler tag all future episode speculation

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Oct 29, 2017
1,223
What makes Jaime's character arc so odd is that we really don't get a sense of what turned him away from everything and back to Cersei. He learns about Daenerys getting ambushed and losing a dragon and then decides to go back to Cersei. It seemed so foolish that I thought he was bluffing in order to get close and kill her.

I guess not.
Jaime loves Cersei, and he always loved Cersei. He never stopped loving Cersei even when he was having sex with Brienne.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,393
How did you put the bells together?
Because of the focus on the bells ringing meaning the city has surrendered. It was just obvious and something no one had mentioned before before in the show so of course it wouldn’t play out this way.

I never read a single spoiler about ep 5 let alone one mentioning bells.

Within five minutes of Tyrion saying this to Dany I think it was repeated three times to other characters. So obviously, the thing that is supposed to tell us Dany has won and Tyrion can rest will be a fuck up and Tyrion will lose. Predictable.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,981
I enjoy the show because I ignore the books and I allow the show writers to tell me a story without backseat driving it myself.

Others should try that.
I engage with media in such a way that if I don't like something that happened in said media, I analyze why. You should try it if you find yourself disliking something someday. You can learn about the creative process, and yourself.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,339
What makes Jaime's character arc so odd is that we really don't get a sense of what turned him away from everything and back to Cersei. He learns about Daenerys getting ambushed and losing a dragon and then decides to go back to Cersei. It seemed so foolish that I thought he was bluffing in order to get close and kill her.

I guess not.
What makes it even more ridiculous and unbelievable is that what seemed to turn him was Bronn showing up and announcing Cersei had hired him to kill Jaime and Tyrion.

It made sense to me that would make him finally see Cersei for who she was, but nope, it made him want to go rescue her instead. What a shitty end to his arc.
 
Oct 27, 2017
14,817
Bro have we been watching the same show? Dany is a brutal killing machine who loses her temper and kills tons of people ALL THE FUCKING time.

She watched as her brother had molten gold poured on his head. Her brother pulled a sword in Vaes Dothrak, his life was forfeit and Dany didn't kill him. He was also her abuser.
She burned the masters alive. She burned slave masters that crucified and murdered children including babes sucking on their mother's teats.
She crucified the masters in Myreen. See above.
She locked the Dothraki in a hut and burned them alive. Dothraki savages that do nothing but rape and plunder and planned to rape her.
She massacred the Masters entire fleet and then burned 2/3 of them alive to send a message. Slave masters that crucified and murdered children including babes sucking on their mother's teats.
She massacred the entire Lannister army in the field. It was a battle, they were her enemy. She let the survivors go once they surrendered.
She burned the Tarlys alive instead of putting them in jail. She burned Varys alive for betraying her. Tarly refused to bend the knee, he was an enemy. She also caught shit for that. Varys straight up tried to assassinate her.
She's wanted to burn Kings Landing to the ground SEVERAL times and was only talked out of it by Tyrion who she no longer trusts. No, she wanted to win King's Landing, the only way would be by using her dragons. And, as we saw in this episode, the tactic would've worked especially with her three dragons as the city would've yielded.
Dany has been on the edge of being a total fucking psycho the entire show but she always had someone with her to hold her back. It was Jorah or Missandei or Tyrion or Dario or what have you. Up until now her homicidal temper has been mostly limited to people we all thought "deserved it".

We must be watching different shows fam.
Try again.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,385
You know I can understand (and partially agree) with people criticizing Dany's turn being too abrupt and out of character (with what we've seen on the show) but I don't understand people justifying or rationalizing her actions this episode. How is that defensible?
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,760
NJ
Did anyone notice the ramp up to the episode where they lingered on Dany after Missandei gets executed? And then in her head it basically has her replaying everything that happened in her life to make her finally snap?

Last night I thought the reason she went Mad Queen was based on her conversation with Jon, where she basically said "Ok, then I'll make them fear me." But thinking back on it, if that was the intention all along I'm not sure why the writers would have started off with a quick recall of everything that pushed her to snap. I mean, it even ended with her brother's voiceover threatening her about "waking the dragon."

Some day there's going to be a killer interview where these guys actually, honestly, talk about the thought process behind their decision-making. I'm not mad at them for any of it... just really more perplexed, I guess is the word I'd use.

It's not like I thought six episodes this season would be enough to wrap everything up. The pacing of everything makes me wonder if they were blindsided by HBO wanting to wrap up everything after season 6...
On that last point, I think HBO wanted more seasons. 10 at least. Its their biggest and highest rated most watched show ever. They wanted more, its why they have 2-3 spinoffs planned. D&D claimed they had only enough story left for 12-13 episodes and came up with the season 7 and 8 plan. I'll never get it because for all the shit they get now, some deserved and some hyperbole IMO, they did season 6 mostly after the books and to me that is one of the best seasons of the show. The payoffs were pitch perfect.

I 100% blame them for shortening the seasons and rushing everything to get to this end goal. Whereas seasons 1-6 felt like they had a natual progress and it would lead to where it lead to organically. I remember there is some speculation that it was cause they wanted to move on to other projects. Even if that was true, not sure why they didn't they just pass off the show to some other showrunners? I mean 95% of the problems in seasons 7 and 8 are solved if they are full 10 episode seasons and run by showrunners who aren't looking to move on.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,536
My head canon is that
Bran warged into Drogon and had him go nuts because Bran needs Jon to kill Dany to forge Lightbringer, at which point Bran will somehow send the sword back in time to be reforged into a dagger that eventually gets into Arya's hands and kills the Night King. Which is why we don't see any shots of Dany's reaction during his carnage.

I'm 100% sure this isn't happening because it's too creative and would take to many words to explain and also GoT time travel doesn't work that way but that's what I'm choosing to believe for the week.
 
Feb 2, 2018
2,856
Same. His arc was never about redemption. How can this man ever redeem himself after all he did?
His ending was fine(apart from that Euron fight, tf was that? lmao), he wasn't butchered. People just had a different idea of where his character was going for years.
The likes of him and Theon can never be redeemed.
I was fine with his ending to be honest. Except the Euron fight
 
Oct 30, 2017
16,106
DFW, Texas
How did you put the bells together?
Idk about Ether, but it was a fairly obvious guess to make. Especially after the "THE CRPYTS ARE LITERALLY THE SAFEST PLACE SINCE THE DAWN OF TIME" lines that kept popping up in episode 2. And just like the "crypts are safe" lines that were repeated again and again they kept repeating and repeating that the bells meant to halt the attack because they had surrendered. And we also knew that Dany was already on the verge of going full bananas.


It shouldn't have been that hard to put two and two together.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,035
The possibility of Dany turning Mad Queen was always there, so this doesn't surprise me. The show still failed to properly lead into her final turn, which I guess is a consequence of Season 7 and 8 being short seasons.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,133
To be fair she got the tattoos after they had finished shooting.
Oh ok. I just feel that a lot of actors don’t like they’re character turning. Mark Hammil seemed a little upset how Luke wasn’t still a hero even if it was better for the movie. Dude thought he was gonna show up on starkiller base yo save the day.......

I can see Emilia not liking her character turning even though it was obvious to most. She was a loved character for many fans. I can see them being upset that she’s not some heroic Queen after all.

Reminds me of when I used to watch wrestling as a kid. They would make my favourite wrestler an asshole after me loving his good side character. I would disown him immediately. Lol. People get attached to characters and don’t like to see them change from good to bad or vice versa
 
Oct 29, 2017
831
Jamie never turned away from Cersei.

Once people realize that, they'll also realize that not every character NEEDS a complete arc.

Sometimes characters are simply consistent and the flirtation with catharsis is the emotional tug that makes it interesting.

Full arcs can be completely generic and predicatble, which kills storytelling, IMO.

Were people honestly hoping Jamie turned out to be a real hero? Were people hoping Dany actually became a reasonable person of mercy?

Your being disappointed is proof the show succeeded, whether you admit it or not.
100% accurate.

These people are human, when faced with fire and blood they are scared and weak and cling to their loved ones. No that’s every character gets a hero’s death, and watching Jaime try to be the shining knight he always fancied himself to be and ultimately fail to save his love is tragic and fine.

The only truly trash story and character arc here is Euron, and you’re all fooling yourselves if you think any other character this season (or last) was handled as poorly.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,082
You know I can understand (and partially agree) with people criticizing Dany's turn being too abrupt and out of character (with what we've seen on the show) but I don't understand people justifying or rationalizing her actions this episode. How is that defensible?
In terms of medieval warfare? The city could have been evacuated easily. Cersei chose to use them as meat shields.
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,440
To be fair it's not like she even tried to win favour with the southerners lmao
She sacrificed half her people and a dragon to save them and they gave Jon all the credit. Then she tried to partner with Jon and he rejected her. Then all of her closest friends were killed. Not sure what else she was supposed to do.
 
Dec 22, 2017
345
I
What makes Jaime's character arc so odd is that we really don't get a sense of what turned him away from everything and back to Cersei. He learns about Daenerys getting ambushed and losing a dragon and then decides to go back to Cersei. It seemed so foolish that I thought he was bluffing in order to get close and kill her.

I guess not.
I've always seen Brienne and Cersei as like the two parts of his conscience. Like Brienne is what he aspires to, what he would like to be - honourable and heroic. But in the end he isn't just this. He's the guy who pushed a child to his death to protect his relationship, something he would do again. He's not one thing or the other, he's both.
 

GSG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,700
I'm still trying to process how bad this episode was. The best thing about last night's episode was that the stream crapped out and I switched over to watch Kawhi's epic shot in game 7 because of it.

Literally all of the plot and character development from the past 8 years has been thrown out the window. There was no motive for Dany to raze an entire city and massacre everyone inside it after they surrendered, it was just so badly written.
 
I mean, she didn't even fly to Cersei when she had the chance. In fact, Dany literally gave her time to escape by spending all the time murdering innocent women and children for zero reason.
Bingo. She starts to fly towards the target, you know...the mission, and then says fuck it and burns the people she hates instead.

He should really stop telling her he loves her, kissing her, and telling her how she's his queen, then. Just a simple, "I'm sorry, this aunt/nephew thing is just too much for me"

Because you don't just turn shit off like a faucet.at least not like a working one.

He caught major feelings.feelings that still get the best of him. And then he remembers and is conflicted.

Some of y'all sound like you're projecting your horniness on John's situation
 
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Oct 29, 2017
2,449
She sacrificed half her people and a dragon to save them and they gave Jon all the credit. Then she tried to partner with Jon and he rejected her. Then all of her closest friends were killed. Not sure what else she was supposed to do.
Not committing genocide would be a great first step lol
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,031
She sacrificed half her people and a dragon to save them and they gave Jon all the credit. Then she tried to partner with Jon and he rejected her. Then all of her closest friends were killed. Not sure what else she was supposed to do.
Lol if the army of the dead ever reached kings landing you might have had a point
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,011
Meh. Dany is a fan favorite, and she'll almost certainly die next week.
Dany doesn’t have her plot armour stat maxed out. Arya does. Jon was smart enough to put his stats into plot armour instead of intelligence as well. In my perfect world Sansa, Jon and Arya would all be dead. Salsa will probably be queen at the end of all of this though. Either way I’m buckling in for 80 more minutes of my expectations being subverted.
 
Dec 12, 2017
1,348
Jamie never turned away from Cersei.

Once people realize that, they'll also realize that not every character NEEDS a complete arc.

Sometimes characters are simply consistent and the flirtation with catharsis is the emotional tug that makes it interesting.

Full arcs can be completely generic and predicatble, which kills storytelling, IMO.

Were people honestly hoping Jamie turned out to be a real hero? Were people hoping Dany actually became a reasonable person of mercy?

Your being disappointed is proof the show succeeded, whether you admit it or not.
Agreed, and it's ok being disappointed or being angry about it. But calling it shit writing because he didn't do what you wanted him to is pretty lame.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,981
There was obviously going to be some kind of attack after the bells. Tyrion wouldn't shut up about them, and how it meant THEY SURRENDERED. I thought that may have been Cersei's last gambit to get Dany to let her guard down and kill her with a last hidden ballista or wildfire when she came close to the red keep. But no.

If someone guessed Dany was going to burn the entire city and the innocent bystanders after the surrender bells and her decisive victory, they may have read some leaks. Because that was dumb
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,518
Yeah I'm sure that's the reason D & D turned one of the most savvy and tactical people on the show and turned him into a bumbling mess. And not, you know, plot contrivances.

Again, still doesn't get us to where she suddenly has victory in her grasp and decides to commit genocide. The character had established for her a ruthless, power at all costs streak, not vindictive genocide toward her scared and cowering subjects.

She speaks of having to rule by fear, not laying waste to that which she would claim as hers by right.
She's advocating for genocide. She's literally saying "sacrificing these people will be worth it for the generations to come." She's got the plan in her head and rationalized it out and made herself feel justified already. She's already The Mad Queen who decided surrender alone wasn't good enough, before she leaves Dragonstone.
 
Nov 6, 2017
2,470
Bro have we been watching the same show? Dany is a brutal killing machine who loses her temper and kills tons of people ALL THE FUCKING time.

She watched as her brother had molten gold poured on his head.
She burned the masters alive.
She crucified the masters in Myreen.
She locked the Dothraki in a hut and burned them alive.
She massacred the Masters entire fleet and then burned 2/3 of them alive to send a message.
She massacred the entire Lannister army in the field.
She burned the Tarlys alive instead of putting them in jail. She burned Varys alive for betraying her.
She's wanted to burn Kings Landing to the ground SEVERAL times and was only talked out of it by Tyrion who she no longer trusts.

Dany has been on the edge of being a total fucking psycho the entire show but she always had someone with her to hold her back. It was Jorah or Missandei or Tyrion or Dario or what have you. Up until now her homicidal temper has been mostly limited to people we all thought "deserved it".

We must be watching different shows fam.
She was doing quite a good job of punishing the bad guys and saving the good guys when she had less advisors lol
 
Oct 27, 2017
205
I mean, she didn't even fly to Cersei when she had the chance. In fact, Dany literally gave her time to escape by spending all the time murdering innocent women and children for zero reason.
She went after Cersei's army and as a result killed everyone on site. What she did wasn't any kind of noble act. All she cared about was trying to hold people accountable for what happened to her Dragons and Missandei. She didn't care about civilians dying.

Her vindictiveness resulted in a mass number of people dying, which was wrong. Thats what the episode was trying to highlight
 
Feb 2, 2018
2,856
I guess I'm in the minority that really liked the episode, warts and all. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Wonder if we'll ever get a spectacle of this scale on TV anytime soon. Unbelievable cinematography. The scenes of people running through the city were incredible.
I think the directors direction been some of the best ever.

Great tv, but rushed writing
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,385
In terms of medieval warfare? The city could have been evacuated easily. Cersei chose to use them as meat shields.
I don't see how this relates to Dany choosing to massacre the citizens of KL after they yield? Of course what Cersei did was completely wrong as well but Dany continuing her path of destruction was not right either. Now it's fine to debate whether the show does a convincing job in building up this choice from Dany (I don't think it does despite the past strong hint towards it) but I don't understand how the actions we see on screen are justified.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,133
I engage with media in such a way that if I don't like something that happened in said media, I analyze why. You should try it if you find yourself disliking something someday. You can learn about the creative process, and yourself.
When people don’t like something they usually tend to avoid the thing they don’t like.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,240
She sacrificed half her people and a dragon to save them and they gave Jon all the credit. Then she tried to partner with Jon and he rejected her. Then all of her closest friends were killed. Not sure what else she was supposed to do.
She did what she was supposed to do. She won the battle, she successfully took King's Landing.
The problem is, she didn't stop there. And now she's one of the worst creatures in all of Planetos.
 
Jun 9, 2018
825
Yes it is. Dany is literally telling him that she isn't loved in Westeros, and that idiot Jon is like "None of that matters because you're my queen and I love you!" So Dany tries to kiss him and he pulls away, pretty much reinforcing the notion that no one will ever love her and that she must rule with fear because she can't trust anyone. Yup, good going Jon. Then Tyrion literally goes behind her back and tells the biggest loudmouth in Westeros about Jon's background, pretty much undermining her claim to the throne completely.

Which in turn goes back to Jon because for some reason he's so damn honest that he can't keep a secret from his sisters.

Shit, if I was in Dany's place, I'd roast half the city as well.
Jon wants to tell his family because his father is ned start and he was raised to be honorable and to be honest. He's not a stark, he's a targeryan. Jon isn't having conflicting feelings about dany, he doesn't love her anymore. He swore that she would be his queen... He's not going back on his word. Thats why they talked about Jorah, to juxtapose Jon and Jorah's feelings for their queen.
 
Oct 29, 2017
253
Yes but there is zero reason for her to believe the people won’t support her especially after everyone else in Westeros announced their support for her, no reason to believe anyone would believe Jon is the true heir or want to take Dany out for him to rule (bastard, Night Watch vow breaker, friend of wildlings, supported by a red priest like Stannis before him), and especially not after she manages to take the whole city on her own without killing a single civilian.

Did the writers support it? Yes, in a completely unbelievable manner.
And like I've been saying, it would have been pretty easy to get the character to that place and it would have helped other characters narratives in the process.

I mean let Vary's plan gain momentum(the whole saga seemed so half-cocked and out of character for him). Let her feel truly isolated, feel like the lords and people are plotting against her like the Mad King did, start feeding seeds of disdain and distrust for the people of Westeros. Let Tyrion wrestle with the conflict. Let that betrayal really hit her. Let her start expressing that disdain in morally questionable ways toward her subjects, ratcheting up the conflict. Drag her back from the ledge a bit with Jon again but leave the seeds of concern planted in the viewers mind. Have Cersei's iron grip mean more than her soldiers immediately laying down arms, therefore the razing can start as Dany going balls out like her character had been willing to do and then slowly weave in her now established genocidal tendencies and Jon's realization that we are the baddies now.
She's advocating for genocide. She's literally saying "sacrificing these people will be worth it for the generations to come." She's got the plan in her head and rationalized it out and made herself feel justified already. She's already The Mad Queen who decided surrender alone wasn't good enough, before she leaves Dragonstone.
That is not once established or inferred with the character. What is established is a willingness to go hard to win the throne and bring Cersei to her knees, not the motive to raze a surrendered city and targetting the innocent block by block.
 
Oct 28, 2017
570
Honestly I hope they didn't show Dany at the end since she's riding North for Sansa. Bran will just sit and watch for the story and not care either way. This is all on Sansa honestly for pressuring Jon into saying something.

I could see something weird happening were Arya is able to disguise herself as Jon (since he died) and killing Dany in the end. Especially after what she witnessed and if Dany goes after or kills Sansa.
 
Oct 26, 2017
16,376
Soooooo why didn't Dany do this last episode?
Because they had Missandei and she was still trying to get Cersei to surrender. She was trying to show the world that she wasn't the monster they had thought she was. Then they pushed her over the edge by killing the one person who meant the most to her.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
8,487
Edmonton
Bro have we been watching the same show? Dany is a brutal killing machine who loses her temper and kills tons of people ALL THE FUCKING time.

She watched as her brother had molten gold poured on his head.
She burned the masters alive.
She crucified the masters in Myreen.
She locked the Dothraki in a hut and burned them alive.
She massacred the Masters entire fleet and then burned 2/3 of them alive to send a message.
She massacred the entire Lannister army in the field.
She burned the Tarlys alive instead of putting them in jail. She burned Varys alive for betraying her.
She's wanted to burn Kings Landing to the ground SEVERAL times and was only talked out of it by Tyrion who she no longer trusts.

Dany has been on the edge of being a total fucking psycho the entire show but she always had someone with her to hold her back. It was Jorah or Missandei or Tyrion or Dario or what have you. Up until now her homicidal temper has been mostly limited to people we all thought "deserved it".

We must be watching different shows fam.
Do you watch this show with one eye open or something? 😆

First of all, none of what she did till she burned the city after winning it was wrong. Secondly, some of stuff you list didn’t even happen (Dany did not burn the Master’s entire fleet, watch that episode again). Why do people keep using slavers and a brother who just threatened to kill her as examples of bloodthirstiness?
 
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