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Game of Thrones S8 |OT2| Please do not post spoilers here - assume all episodes have been leaked - spoiler tag all future episode speculation

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Oct 25, 2017
14,082
I don't see how this relates to Dany choosing to massacre the citizens of KL after they yield? Of course what Cersei did was completely wrong as well but Dany continuing her path of destruction was not right either. Now it's fine to debate whether the show does a convincing job in building up this choice from Dany (I don't think it does despite the past strong hint towards it) but I don't understand how the actions we see on screen are justified.
It’s war. She went for the jugular and it worked. Ethics/morals went out the window in Season 1.
 
Jul 28, 2018
1,461
Dany doesn’t have her plot armour stat maxed out. Arya does. Jon was smart enough to put his stats into plot armour instead of intelligence as well. In my perfect world Sansa, Jon and Arya would all be dead. Salsa will probably be queen at the end of all of this though. Either way I’m buckling in for 80 more minutes of my expectations being subverted.
Salsa, my queen.
 
Nov 21, 2017
812
On that last point, I think HBO wanted more seasons. 10 at least. Its their biggest and highest rated most watched show ever. They wanted more, its why they have 2-3 spinoffs planned. D&D claimed they had only enough story left for 12-13 episodes and came up with the season 7 and 8 plan. I'll never get it because for all the shit they get now, some deserved and some hyperbole IMO, they did season 6 mostly after the books and to me that is one of the best seasons of the show. The payoffs were pitch perfect.

I 100% blame them for shortening the seasons and rushing everything to get to this end goal. Whereas seasons 1-6 felt like they had a natual progress and it would lead to where it lead to organically. I remember there is some speculation that it was cause they wanted to move on to other projects. Even if that was true, not sure why they didn't they just pass off the show to some other showrunners? I mean 95% of the problems in seasons 7 and 8 are solved if they are full 10 episode seasons and run by showrunners who aren't looking to move on.
It’s a long time to commit to a project especially one so high profile and subject to scrutiny. In terms of where Martin has left the story it would probably take 10 - 12 series to do it justice. Many people are sceptical that Martin can wrap things up in two books even if they are LOTR length each.

There is also the awkward and somewhat unprecedented situation of having to construct a resolution that doesn’t step on the toes of where Martin’s narrative is heading.

For all the criticisms of D&D they have at least seen it through to the end unlike most show runners.
 

holiday

Banned
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,059
Episode was entertaining, the directing was great, and emilia clarke did very well. The ground-level carnage against the spectacle view from Cersei and Dany's POVs was excellent in framing just how insane and desperate everything had gotten.

My biggest complaint though is the way the innocents are used in the narrative. I think that was the most extensive depiction of the horrors of war in the show so far. It was troubling. But it was so obviously included to give impact and momentum to Dany's descent. The people were still just tools for the writers to get Dany to a certain point.

And this relates with the most asinine aspect of the show: its insistent sympathy for Cersei. At the end they try to humanize her and make her seem multidimensional, but it doesn't work because her character arc for years has included the flattening of her into a villain from an R-rated Star Trek fanfic. She was a complicated if ruthless mother, then she became the Smirk Empress and the show celebrated her victory.

Where were the scenes with the innocent when Cersei blew up the sept? Why, now, are we finally seeimg actual humans in Kings Landing, and not before?

In conquering the city, Dany became the villain. I actually like that, as a conclusion to her deluded savior narrative. But by staging the deaths of civilians as the momentum of her descent the way it did, the show turned Cersei into the protector bringing people into the Red Keep and the Lannister soldiers into the brave noble heroes. The show reinforces an infuriating imbalance of impact and significance. Some mass crimes are depicted as victories, some as tragedies in the show, and that inconsistency undercuts a ton of the intended response for me.

In short, they should have written Dany's fall in a way that didn't rely upon narrative sympathy for Cersei, who is an utterly myopic monster of a shit.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,385
Honestly I hope they didn't show Dany at the end since she's riding North for Sansa. Bran will just sit and watch for the story and not care either way. This is all on Sansa honestly for pressuring Jon into saying something.

I could see something weird happening were Arya is able to disguise herself as Jon (since he died) and killing Dany in the end. Especially after what she witnessed and if Dany goes after or kills Sansa.
If Bran really can see the future, it's all on him for revealing it to Jon/pushing Sam to do it in the first place. What purpose does it serve?
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,917
Do you watch this show with one eye open or something? 😆

First of all, none of what she did till she burned the city after winning it was wrong. Secondly, some of stuff you list didn’t even happen (Dany did not burn the Master’s entire fleet, watch that episode again). Why do people keep using slavers and a brother who just threatened to kill her as examples of bloodthirstiness?
My thoughts as well. Nothing she's has done so far has even sniffed destroying the entire city AFTER it had surrendered which is why it's a big leap for me and a lot of people it seems.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,981
Bingo. She starts to fly towards the target, you...the mission, and then says fuck it and burns the people she hates instead. She may as well have lot



Because you don't just turn shit off like a faucet.at least not like a working one.

He caught major feelings.feelings that still get the best of him. And then he remembers and is conflicted.

Some of y'all sound like you're projecting your horniness on John's situation
"Of course Jon is conflicted. It's his aunt! Yuck!"

"He should stop vacillating between kissing her and telling her he loves her and then acting grossed out by her/ignoring her. Especially right after she's suffered a bunch of losses, her people are betraying her, and he himself betrayed her by telling everyone who wants to take her down about how he's the rightful king even though he doesn't even want it. Probably not a great way to handle this relationship, whichever way you want it to go."

"You're just horny for Dany"


Oh word? You got me. lol
 
Nov 15, 2017
3,174
Dare I say....

Varys forced Dany to nuke the whole city.

Mr. Save the Innocent stupidly betrayed Dany by telling the world of Jon's lineage, putting Dany in a terrible situation where she HAD to make a statement.

Varys was stupid to do what he did. A total miscalculation that resulted in the total.opposite of what he wanted to accomplish.

Sansa and the North and everyone else would see Jon as the true king, and since she can't bring herself to just kill Jon, she decided to go with Plan B - scare the whole world into bending the knee for her by destroying King's Landing and everyone who would dare oppose her.

Dany had no choice. She had murder up the place.

I think she should kill all the Starks and Tyrion too, to remove all doubt of her claim. But I don't think D&D have the balls to end the show killing off the most popular showrunners.
Nope to all of this. She had all of the cards. She had the surrender and could have shown the people that she was merciful. They hated Cersei. She blew it all for nothing.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,638
One thing that my brother pointed out that's weird is that the show kind of celebrates the cruelty of characters other than Dany.

Arya is one of the two hero characters in the show and Arya murdered a bunch of abused children and baked them into pies... The show has not suggested any madness for her.
 

Axe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,105
United Kingdom
Again, still doesn't get us to where she suddenly has victory in her grasp and decides to commit genocide. The character had established for her a ruthless, power at all costs streak, not vindictive genocide toward her scared and cowering subjects.

She speaks of having to rule by fear, not laying waste to that which she would claim as hers by right.
Yeah, I think this is the issue. She destroys the entirety of King's Landing, but is still gunning for the throne. She doesn't want to be Queen of Ashes so what is she actually trying to achieve? Without any reaction of her during that whole sequence it's hard to see it as more than her randomly snapping and indiscriminately killing everyone simply to fit the Mad Queen twist. Either do one or the other, or show a purpose for why she's doing these things. They tried to cram everything into one basket and it's just a mess.

I imagine this scenario will play out differently in the books. Either
a) She'll burn the Red Keep as an act to instill fear, but trigger the wildfire and inadvertently obliterate the city. Tragic, and the trauma of the event would likely drive her genuinely mad. She'll go on a rampage to retaliate for what she perceives as a betrayal/trap by the city.
b) The commonfolk prefer fAegon and Dany sustains heavy personal losses. She'll give up on the throne entirely and start killing everybody out of hatred, jealousy and spite in order to bring everyone else down with her.

The way it played out on the show...well, Cersei's (dead man's switch) plan succeeded once again. Queen of Ashes indeed.
 
Oct 31, 2017
434
I guess they'll live off their Game of Thrones royalties from now on, because how could someone possibly hire these two fucking garbage-ass HACKS.

They will be nuclear-grade toxic after this show is over. The massive negativity that is already swirling will follow them to the end of their existence.
Man... what is wrong with some of you people lol. Calm down.
 
Oct 27, 2017
828
Didn't hate this as much as most people on twitter. They didn't quite sell Dany's motivations sure, but I get where they're coming from. This episode probably had the best direction of the season (the scenes on the ground during the battle were incredible, especially that oner with Arya and the family), and I thought the moment with Arya and the Hound was great. Also it surpringly made me feel sympathetic towards Ceresei. The spectacle is still pretty enjoyable even if it's not up to par with earlier seasons.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,385
It’s war. She went for the jugular and it worked. Ethics/morals went out the window in Season 1.
It worked but then she kept going.

And war is not without rules and ethics. Yes people in the the world of GoT often break them but that's exactly why they're immoral and the antagonists whom we hope get their comeuppance (like the Lannisters). And I don't think we've seen anyone in the show commit such giant war crime as Dany did this episode. Her frustrations and aggressive approach to the attack was justified but her continuing massacre was not.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,449
She went after Cersei's army and as a result killed everyone on site. What she did wasn't any kind of noble act. All she cared about was trying to hold people accountable for what happened to her Dragons and Missandei. She didn't care about civilians dying.

Her vindictiveness resulted in a mass number of people dying, which was wrong. Thats what the episode was trying to highlight
She burned entire sections of civilians that had no soldiers in sight. She "burned it all", if we want to go the "poetry, it rhymes" route. Cersei and her personal, direct followers killed her Dragons and Missandei, not the thousands of women and children that she was warned existed still. Out of all the violent acts Dany has committed, never has she hinted that innocents deserve to die. It would have been very simple to burn everyone responsible in one fell swoop by going after the Red Keep (except for Euron, who was busy being a final boss for Jaime I guess), but she needed to commit a Holocaust first to justify the pacing of her transformation into the "Mad Queen". It's rushed and unfortunately just a symptom of the writers trying to end everything quickly because they want to work on their "What if Confederate soldiers were sympathetic and slaves were still a thing?" show.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,991
Lol why was Ether_Snake banned? Him calling out the bell bullshit right before it happened does not mean he was spoiling any leaked stuff. Wasn't it obvious to literally everyone at that point? Looking at his post history, nothing implies he knew about the bells spoilers anyway.
 
Oct 25, 2017
16,205
I'm okay with a previously heroic character turning insane, but they way it happen was executed very poorly. Sloppy, unrealistic, and unsatisfying. The tone of the episode was actually pretty cool, but the content was completely unearned.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,134
Lol why was Ether_Snake banned? Him calling out the bell bullshit right before it happened does not mean he was spoiling any leaked stuff. Wasn't it obvious to literally everyone at that point? Looking at his post history, nothing implies he knew about the bells spoilers anyway.
Other than actively posting in the leaks thread you mean ? Sure.
 
Oct 28, 2017
8,945
I guess they'll live off their Game of Thrones royalties from now on, because how could someone possibly hire these two fucking garbage-ass HACKS.

They will be nuclear-grade toxic after this show is over. The massive negativity that is already swirling will follow them to the end of their existence.
These types of posts are disgusting.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,015
NYC
I guess they'll live off their Game of Thrones royalties from now on, because how could someone possibly hire these two fucking garbage-ass HACKS.

They will be nuclear-grade toxic after this show is over. The massive negativity that is already swirling will follow them to the end of their existence.
I can only hope.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,215
Not committing genocide would be a great first step lol
She's advocating for genocide. She's literally saying "sacrificing these people will be worth it for the generations to come." She's got the plan in her head and rationalized it out and made herself feel justified already. She's already The Mad Queen who decided surrender alone wasn't good enough, before she leaves Dragonstone.
she needed to commit a Holocaust first
Weird definitions of “genocide” some people are operating on here. Even in modern warfare conducted by “civilized” nations, there are heavy civilian casualties (at least as targeted as what Dany does here), rape, pillaging, and the near-obliteration of settlements and cities, but we don’t use that word to describe the actions of, say, the US in Vietnam or Iraq.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,365
Yeah, I think this is the issue. She destroys the entirety of King's Landing, but is still gunning for the throne. She doesn't want to be Queen of Ashes so what is she actually trying to achieve? Without any reaction of her during that whole sequence it's hard to see it as more than her randomly snapping and indiscriminately killing everyone simply to fit the Mad Queen twist. Either do one or the other, or show a purpose for why she's doing these things. They tried to cram everything into one basket and it's just a mess.

I imagine this scenario will play out differently in the books. Either
a) She'll burn the Red Keep as an act to instill fear, but trigger the wildfire and inadvertently obliterate the city. Tragic, and the trauma of the event would likely drive her genuinely mad. She'll go on a rampage to retaliate for what she perceives as a betrayal/trap by the city.
b) The commonfolk prefer fAegon and Dany sustains heavy personal losses. She'll give up on the throne entirely and start killing everybody out of hatred, jealousy and spite in order to bring everyone else down with her.

The way it played out on the show...well, Cersei's (dead man's switch) plan succeeded once again. Queen of Ashes indeed.
Well being generous maybe this was all a 'break the wheel' moment. She ends the Seven Kingdoms in the most brutal way imaginable, goes up to Winterfell to burn Sansa and Bran, then fucks off back to Meereen to rule Slaver's Bay instead, or just goes off cruising the skies by herself.

I mean doesn't make much sense, but it's an option.
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,518
My thoughts as well. Nothing she's has done so far has even sniffed destroying the entire city AFTER it had surrendered which is why it's a big leap for me and a lot of people it seems.
It's nonsense that she's never made a mistake before this episode. She learned in Mereen that conquering was the easy part, ruling was the hard part. Shit was going sideways on her there too. She's bounced back before, like with the Dothraki rallying to her, but everything since she's landed on Westeros has been a shit show, and on top of that her claim to the throne is basically null if Jon wants to take it. Everyone around her she's trusted is either dead, betrayed her, or rebuffed her. Two of her three trump-card dragons are gone.

She's never been in this spot. She's had a psychotic lust for the throne the entire show and she's at the finish line feeling like anything less than complete decisiveness will leave her still vulnerable. So she makes up this rationale that future generations will be better off if she nukes King's Landing. Boom, now she's justified in her actions. This is how crazy people think.
 
Oct 30, 2017
16,106
DFW, Texas
Lol why was Ether_Snake banned? Him calling out the bell bullshit right before it happened does not mean he was spoiling any leaked stuff. Wasn't it obvious to literally everyone at that point? Looking at his post history, nothing implies he knew about the bells spoilers anyway.
Are you sure thats why he was banned? The Bells thing seemed pretty obvious to me once they started repeating it over and over again in the episode. It was "The Crypts are safe!" all over again and when you combine that with Dany's erratic behavior it doesn't seem like that big of a leap to make at the time.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,449
Weird definitions of “genocide” some people are operating on here. Even in modern warfare conducted by “civilized” nations, there are heavy civilian casualties (at least as targeted as what Dany does here), rape, pillaging, and the near-obliteration of settlements and cities, but we don’t use that word to describe the actions of, say, the US in Vietnam or Iraq.
Speak for yourself, because those are also genocide.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,240
Weird definitions of “genocide” some people are operating on here. Even in modern warfare conducted by “civilized” nations, there are heavy civilian casualties (at least as targeted as what Dany does here), rape, pillaging, and the near-obliteration of settlements and cities, but we don’t use that word to describe the actions of, say, the US in Vietnam or Iraq.
The whole city has been turned to ash, hundreds of thousands have been burnt, killed and raped.
How is that not a genocide?
And I'd definitely use those terms to describe what happened in Iraq and Vietnam.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,385
Episode was entertaining, the directing was great, and emilia clarke did very well. The ground-level carnage against the spectacle view from Cersei and Dany's POVs was excellent in framing just how insane and desperate everything had gotten.

My biggest complaint though is the way the innocents are used in the narrative. I think that was the most extensive depiction of the horrors of war in the show so far. It was troubling. But it was so obviously included to give impact and momentum to Dany's descent. The people were still just tools for the writers to get Dany to a certain point.

And this relates with the most asinine aspect of the show: its insistent sympathy for Cersei. At the end they try to humanize her and make her seem multidimensional, but it doesn't work because her character arc for years has included the flattening of her into a villain from an R-rated Star Trek fanfic. She was a complicated if ruthless mother, then she became the Smirk Empress and the show celebrated her victory.

Where were the scenes with the innocent when Cersei blew up the sept? Why, now, are we finally seeimg actual humans in Kings Landing, and not before?

In conquering the city, Dany became the villain. I actually like that, as a conclusion to her deluded savior narrative. But by staging the deaths of civilians as the momentum of her descent the way it did, the show turned Cersei into the protector bringing people into the Red Keep and the Lannister soldiers into the brave noble heroes. The show reinforces an infuriating imbalance of impact and significance. Some mass crimes are depicted as victories, some as tragedies in the show, and that inconsistency undercuts a ton of the intended response for me.

In short, they should have written Dany's fall in a way that didn't rely upon narrative sympathy for Cersei, who is an utterly myopic monster of a shit.
I do agree with this. The show has not quite been the paragon of illustrating the horrors of war in the past or showing it as a unfortunate act one has to engage in. It's been at times gratuitous and juvenile with the violence displayed on screen. So a sudden attempt to show the plight of innocent victims feels very much manipulative and inconsistent with the show's tone thus far. Nevertheless I think Sapochnik did a good job, however hypocritical it may seem.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,991
Are you sure thats why he was banned? The Bells thing seemed pretty obvious to me once they started repeating it over and over again in the episode. It was "The Crypts are safe!" all over again.
He was banned for posting spoilers as speculation (no evidence of this) and trolling (trying to defend himself).
 
Nov 7, 2017
1,437
We never see Dany riding Drogon while the city burns.

That is because Drogon is in charge and killed everyone in an act of revenge. He snapped after his brother was killed by Euron the clown.

Drogon will sit on the Iron Throne.
 
Oct 25, 2017
859
I'm still trying to process how bad this episode was. The best thing about last night's episode was that the stream crapped out and I switched over to watch Kawhi's epic shot in game 7 because of it.
While a feel different on the show than you do...

That Kawhi shot tho

OT: I HATE that Jamie was done the way he was. The more I think about it the less bad it is, but I hate it. I wanted him to finally turn for us. Dany turning wasn't a surprise at all though, and Tyrion did telegraph the bells stuff.

I haven't thoroughly read the leaks, so I never saw anything about the bells. But there is something I did read on accident just by coming across it, I'm tempted to just go read them to confirm if it was right.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,700
I low key like the fact that didn't go with what everyone was thinking.
No, it went pretty similar to how I thought it would go out.

I think Cersei being a mess, cowering in the cellar of Kings Landing is a fitting end for her as a character (ignoring Episode 4 and the fact she could have easily ended the war in a second if she wanted to with Danny showing up at Kings Landing)

Jamie? Yea, they nuked his character.

Danny going mad queen? It's been telegraphed for ages and was one of the only ways to get Jon to betray her. Either way this series was ending with Jon flipping on Danny after seeing her burn an entire city down, or Danny becoming hyper paranoid (a better approach in my view) and start executing people she believes are plotting against her to get Jon to take the thrown.

We got both, but frankly it would have been a more rewarding pay off to have Mad Queen bubble up after the battle as she deals with the fact everyone knows Jon has the rightful claim. Her paranoia would have been more captivating (if given enough time to mature) than just having her go on a genocidal rampage and turn 100% evil.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,007


I honestly don't know how people still defend the two clowns. Fuck D&D
Yea this to me was the most damning...

Like I can forgive the sharp turn for khaleesi being that there were subtle implications of her becoming that, just it wasnt fleshed out enough, but the jamie lannister stuff is inexcusable
 
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