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Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,728
Sure they can, how else did Craster managed to reach his deal with the NK?

Yeah, this, plus Sam not being killed by the white walker that looked starigh at him in the S2 finale. I dn't think they're the mindless killing machines that a lot of the people are saying they are. Or at least, they were maybe not meant to be, originally.
 
Dec 16, 2017
1,998
I'm not sure how people disappointed that the NK was defeated got through the first several seasons. We got one of the most ambitious battle scenes I've ever seen filmed, and the table is clear for the interpersonal conflicts that are the foundation of the show.
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,047
Let me just once and for all explain why people are upset. And, Morrigan can back me up if she thinks I'm hitting the mark. This is going to be my grand, end all be all, post on the subject so strap the fuck in. In this laborious post, I will be using examples from both the books and the show. This is to prove how it fails on both levels. And, to understand the extent to which the show failed to adhere to the point of the series/text. Accordingly, to avoid confusion, I'll be placing book reference in italicizes while show references will remain in regular text. Let's go:


The show might be called Game of Thrones, but the novels are part of a series titled A Song of Ice and Fire. The series is not about the Iron Throne, the Throne is not important. That is at least what Martin seems to be building towards. All of these petty lords and humans squabbling over a piece of iron while a true world ending threat is just outside their door step. This is why he has compared the WW threat to climate change. The world is about to be drowned in rising sea levels, but Republicans will still argue over taxes and regulations. The show and the books literally both start with the introduction of the White Walkers/The Others. It's what the series has always been about.

We're told that long ago the White Walkers came and heralded in a Long Night that lasted a generation all across the world. Kings and Queens froze to death in their castles the same as lowly peasants in their hovels. And, whole people were born, lived, and died in the dark night, never seeing the sun. See (Old Nan Tale S1). It was at some point during these times that a Hero arose that fought back the Darkness. He/She rallied the forces of the world fighting against the WW's with a flaming sword called Lightbringer. This legendary figure's name is different in each culture/part of the world: Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon the Hero, Eldric Shadowchaser, The Last Hero, or The Prince that Was Promised. But all agree that they turned the tide in the conflict and ultimately won back the Day.

However, the threat was not outright defeated as the forces of the world clearly believed the forces of the Night would return again someday. Thus, in the West, the Wall was constructed and the Night's Watch was formed to "Guard the Realms of Men." In the east, the Five Forts of Yi Ti were constructed. And, it is there in the East that the religion of R'hllor, the Red God, birthed, spread, and prophesied that the Long Night would come again and usher in a New War for the Dawn and that Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised would be reborn to lead humanity to victory against this conflict.

Why am I mentioning all of this? Who cares? Well, it's because for SEVEN SEASONS (and five books) we have been primed and prepared for the coming of the Long Night again. We've been told again and again that, "WINTER IS COMING." We've been told that nothing else matters, that this squabbling over the Thorne is meaningless and is blinding everyone from the true threat in the North. The last time the White Walkers came, the forces of Men at least had the Children of the Forest and their magic on their side. But, over the years, magic has faded from the world and the memories of men are fleeting. The Night's Watch has been reduced to an "army of undisciplined boys and tired old men" with less than "a thousand" left, so few The Watch can only man three castles across The Wall. See (Maester Aemon, S1E03). And, no one in the realm believes the White Walkers were even real to begin with but instead just another fairytale next to the tales of Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder during the Age of Heroes. See (Maester Luwin S1). The stage is set for humanity to be hit with a rude awakening once Winter Comes as they are totally unprepared and unwilling to get prepared.

Now, let's fast forward to last Sunday's episode, the White Walker threat was completely eradicated in their first major confrontation/battle with the forces of Men. And, the Night King turned into little shards of ice after being jumped from behind. This great battle was waged by the battered remaining remnants of the Northern Houses who managed to survive two back-to-back civil wars; reinforcements from the Vale; and the surviving members of Daenerys Targaryen's Essos army who (much like the Northerners) were also diminished time and again by perpetual warfare and conquest. No army South of the Neck joined the Battle. No River Lords, a half a dozen Iron Islanders, no Stormlanders, no one in the Marches, no one from the West (besides a one-armed Knight), no one from the South in either Dorne or the Arbor, no Sword of the Morning, no one from the Reach (besides a fat failed Maester), no one from any of the Free Cities of Essos, no group of Faceless Men, no contingent of Red Priests and/or Shadowbinders from Asshai or Volantis, no gang of Braavosi water dancers, not a single free company from Lys, Tyrosh, or Myr; NOTHING.

No one South of the Neck has even seen a White Walker, nor will they ever see one at this point. No one South of the Neck had to risk anything, sacrifice anything, or suffer any consequences for ignoring the threat to the North. The Reach is an area of bountiful harvests, bursting with food. They will never know hunger or starvation or the effects of a hundred year long dark winter. They will only know Arbor Gold wine and fat stacks of bread. They contributed NOTHING to the eventual conflict that threatened the world and gained EVERYTHING.

And so now we cut to the especially hard truth of the matter, nothing mattered. Every sacrifice was pointless and worthless. Benjen Stark ranging North of the Wall. Old Bear Mormont leading the majority of the Night's Watch North of the Wall. The FiSt of the First Men. Qhorin Half-Hand sacrificing himself to Jon Snow so word could reach back to the Watch. Stannis accepting the burden. Stannis forsaking the faith of the land and accepting the spread of R'hllor/the Red God. Stannis killing his brother through shadowbinding. Stannis and Melisandre sacrificing folk to the flames. Daenerys Targaryen losing her unborn child. Daenerys Targaryen birthing dragons back into the world. Daenerys enduring the Red Wastes. Daenerys visions in the House of the Undying. Mance Rayder gathering the largest army the world has ever seen. Jon Snow watching Ygritte die. Stannis forsaking pursuing the Throne to aid the Night's Watch. Stannis leading his army North to take Winterfell. Mance Rayder choosing to be burned alive. Bran going North of the Wall. Jojen sacrificing himself for Bran. Bran becoming the 3ER. Hodor Holding the Door. Jon giving The Gift to the Wildlings. Jon harboring Alys Karstark. Jon Snow choosing to fight Ramsay Snow. Jon Snow dying and being resurrected. Berric Dondarrion being resurrected a dozen or so times. Daenerys Targaryen choosing to turn her army North instead of South to claim her rights by all the laws of Gods and Men. Jon Snow giving up his title as King of the North to gain Daenerys as an ally.

ALL OF THAT, PLUS MORE, that was all for NOTHING. These people were all idiots. They should have listened to Cercei and the skeptics this whole time, for if they had done nothing, they would all be better off. The only exception perhaps being Mance Rayder, but if he had known the WW's were so easy a threat to be dismayed by a dragonglass/dragonsteel dagger to the heart of their leader, perhaps he would not have chosen to lead his army South.

The truth is that had everyone done nothing, the WW's would not have been able to breach the Wall. The Wall protected against the WW's crossing over for thousands of years, and as Benjen Stark noted, its magic protects undead from crossing over. It was only through the stupid act of doing something, of actually taking the threat serious, that allowed the NK to claim one of Dany's dragons and use it to knock down The Wall. But, if everyone had just sat down and done nothing, nobody would have needed to die. The World would have been safe. Cercei was right.



And now we get to the crux of the antithetical nature of this resolution. Martin has compared the WW threat as being akin to Climate Change. But, according to this last episode, climate change skeptics are all right. Climate Change isn't that big of deal. We don't need the whole world working together to solve this issue. In fact, you just need a small band of dedicated individuals, including a savant child. They will sacrifice everything and solve the issue. Meanwhile, you can sit back and race your Hummers down the highway all you want, guzzle down gallons of gas, pump more and more toxins into the sky to produce ever more junk, throw your plastic trash into the sea, and deregulate the entire environmental protection laws and agencies. You were a fucking idiot to believe you had to sacrifice anything to make the world a better place, all it ever took was a sacrifice from a few individuals whom you've never heard of and will likely never hear of. They solved everything while you sat back and relaxed, unaware there was even a problem in the first place. And with climate change forever solved, they too can get back to squabbling over taxes and pieces of imaginary lines on a map.

Hoooray, did we subvert your expectations?

This isn't about Arya jumping the Night King from behind, it's the underlying message behind it all. Nothing that we saw in the past seven seasons meant anything, all of those sacrifices and pains were for naught. The WW's were not some end of the world threat that required everyone in the world to pay attention and work together to solve. They were a minor inconvenience that affected only the North and were defeated without ever leaving the North.

I could keep going since idiots keep thinking that the book prophecies are actually all dumb and meaningless. News flash, they aren't. But, that's a whole separate topic and veers too hard into the books. What I've just laid out is the real reason people hate the episode. And, we haven't even gotten into the actual nitpicky nonsense regarding the actual battle of the episode. Artillery in the front lines. Cavalry charging in the dark into the front lines of the enemy instead of waiting on the flanks. No hot oil to repel climbing invaders. A comically small moat of fire. No proper barricades of the main entrance. No one realizing that a dude that can raise the dead can actually raise the dead and thus sticking everyone in the crypts is a bad idea. Just LOL.

But, but Mr. BossAttack , this series is called Game of Thrones, it's actually always been about the politics. Fuck you and STFU. No, it's not. The show hasn't been about "complex politics" since it ran out of books to adapt. It's why every political character turned into a DUNCE with an extra big D on their hat the moment they left Kings Landing. Varys, Tyrion, Littlefinger, all of them turned into slack jawed yokels that couldn't rub to pennies together in their heads once the books dried up. Even worse, they made decisions that flew in the face of all political acumen and logic in the world. Littlefinger openly gives Sansa to Roose Bolton. Sansa! A declared traitor to the Crown that Cercei has demanded the head of, LF gives her up openly despite owing all his lands and titles to the Crown which they can easily snatch from him. He does this to gain…oh that's right to gain fuck all because it was all a contrivance to have Sansa raped for shock value.

Now that the NK is gone you expect me to get invested back in the politics of the world when the politics haven't made sense for five seasons? How can I get invested with Cercei as the main villain? Cercei makes no sense. I can't invest myself in an enemy that adheres to no logic. How does Cercei have any allies or power? She blew up the holiest site in Westeros along with the Pope and all the great Nobles Houses are like, "okay, cool." And, all the superstitious peasant folk that incited a small uprising that ousted the previous Pope and installed a People's Pope are equally just okay with what Cercei did. Cercei also has gold and resources to back her that just spring from nowhere. The Iron Bank are also keen to back her. Why? At least if this was the books we could justify it by saying that the Iron Bank despises the return of dragons. But the show never set this up, so it's irrelevant. Why should the Iron Bank back a crazy lady when Daenerys seems a more stable ruler and under her father's reign the Crown's coffers were overflowing and the Crown's debts were being paid on time?

Tell me again, how do I invest in such a comical enemy when nothing about her makes sense? The NK was at least nice because you didn't have to think, he was just pure evil. He didn't speak and he had one goal, kill everything. You didn't have to think about the dumb politics or logistics. It was an enemy made for D&D (hell, one they made up) and now he's gone. Now, we have to go back to an enemy you do have to think about and who makes no sense.



Do you understand the problem?

Pretty much on the mark. Nothing more needs to be said here. The show failed utterly in adapting the whole point of the story.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
problem with this is that D&D said they only came up with the idea of Arya killing the Night King around the time of S5, so a lot of the "foreshadowing" in this video is just a happy accident.
I kinda wish D&D didn't say that, because I'd ba lot more into it then, too. Lol.
Don't think it's fair to call it just a happy accident, they didn't roll a dice for who gets the kill. The character arch and many specific scenes of Arya made her a good pick to deliver the killing blow, the choice made sense even if much of the arch was written and filmed before they thought of it leading to this pivotal moment. And of course there's the couple seasons where they already were intentionally building for it. D&D could have chosen so much worse if they just wanted shock and surprise. Which is why I'm surprised that so many people have a gripe with it being Arya. I get the complaints that the WW threat ended too early, in my first post about the episode I said that something was missing from the WW story. I wouldn't have minded at all to have more episodes for the show, or hell even another full season (because it's consistently been great TV) . But the critique about Arya giving the final blow rings completely hollow and some people are pouring all their frustrations of the missing episodes and the WW plot development on Arya and this specific episode.
I'm not sure how people disappointed that the NK was defeated got through the first several seasons. We got one of the most ambitious battle scenes I've ever seen filmed, and the table is clear for the interpersonal conflicts that are the foundation of the show.
There seems to be a clear divide between people, some prefer the Walker threat over everything else while others (like me) are much more fond of the human characters and politics between the houses.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 34385

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 26, 2017
459
Let me just once and for all explain why people are upset. And, Morrigan can back me up if she thinks I'm hitting the mark. This is going to be my grand, end all be all, post on the subject so strap the fuck in. In this laborious post, I will be using examples from both the books and the show. This is to prove how it fails on both levels. And, to understand the extent to which the show failed to adhere to the point of the series/text. Accordingly, to avoid confusion, I'll be placing book reference in italicizes while show references will remain in regular text. Let's go:


The show might be called Game of Thrones, but the novels are part of a series titled A Song of Ice and Fire. The series is not about the Iron Throne, the Throne is not important. That is at least what Martin seems to be building towards. All of these petty lords and humans squabbling over a piece of iron while a true world ending threat is just outside their door step. This is why he has compared the WW threat to climate change. The world is about to be drowned in rising sea levels, but Republicans will still argue over taxes and regulations. The show and the books literally both start with the introduction of the White Walkers/The Others. It's what the series has always been about.

We're told that long ago the White Walkers came and heralded in a Long Night that lasted a generation all across the world. Kings and Queens froze to death in their castles the same as lowly peasants in their hovels. And, whole people were born, lived, and died in the dark night, never seeing the sun. See (Old Nan Tale S1). It was at some point during these times that a Hero arose that fought back the Darkness. He/She rallied the forces of the world fighting against the WW's with a flaming sword called Lightbringer. This legendary figure's name is different in each culture/part of the world: Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon the Hero, Eldric Shadowchaser, The Last Hero, or The Prince that Was Promised. But all agree that they turned the tide in the conflict and ultimately won back the Day.

However, the threat was not outright defeated as the forces of the world clearly believed the forces of the Night would return again someday. Thus, in the West, the Wall was constructed and the Night's Watch was formed to "Guard the Realms of Men." In the east, the Five Forts of Yi Ti were constructed. And, it is there in the East that the religion of R'hllor, the Red God, birthed, spread, and prophesied that the Long Night would come again and usher in a New War for the Dawn and that Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised would be reborn to lead humanity to victory against this conflict.

Why am I mentioning all of this? Who cares? Well, it's because for SEVEN SEASONS (and five books) we have been primed and prepared for the coming of the Long Night again. We've been told again and again that, "WINTER IS COMING." We've been told that nothing else matters, that this squabbling over the Thorne is meaningless and is blinding everyone from the true threat in the North. The last time the White Walkers came, the forces of Men at least had the Children of the Forest and their magic on their side. But, over the years, magic has faded from the world and the memories of men are fleeting. The Night's Watch has been reduced to an "army of undisciplined boys and tired old men" with less than "a thousand" left, so few The Watch can only man three castles across The Wall. See (Maester Aemon, S1E03). And, no one in the realm believes the White Walkers were even real to begin with but instead just another fairytale next to the tales of Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder during the Age of Heroes. See (Maester Luwin S1). The stage is set for humanity to be hit with a rude awakening once Winter Comes as they are totally unprepared and unwilling to get prepared.

Now, let's fast forward to last Sunday's episode, the White Walker threat was completely eradicated in their first major confrontation/battle with the forces of Men. And, the Night King turned into little shards of ice after being jumped from behind. This great battle was waged by the battered remaining remnants of the Northern Houses who managed to survive two back-to-back civil wars; reinforcements from the Vale; and the surviving members of Daenerys Targaryen's Essos army who (much like the Northerners) were also diminished time and again by perpetual warfare and conquest. No army South of the Neck joined the Battle. No River Lords, a half a dozen Iron Islanders, no Stormlanders, no one in the Marches, no one from the West (besides a one-armed Knight), no one from the South in either Dorne or the Arbor, no Sword of the Morning, no one from the Reach (besides a fat failed Maester), no one from any of the Free Cities of Essos, no group of Faceless Men, no contingent of Red Priests and/or Shadowbinders from Asshai or Volantis, no gang of Braavosi water dancers, not a single free company from Lys, Tyrosh, or Myr; NOTHING.

No one South of the Neck has even seen a White Walker, nor will they ever see one at this point. No one South of the Neck had to risk anything, sacrifice anything, or suffer any consequences for ignoring the threat to the North. The Reach is an area of bountiful harvests, bursting with food. They will never know hunger or starvation or the effects of a hundred year long dark winter. They will only know Arbor Gold wine and fat stacks of bread. They contributed NOTHING to the eventual conflict that threatened the world and gained EVERYTHING.

And so now we cut to the especially hard truth of the matter, nothing mattered. Every sacrifice was pointless and worthless. Benjen Stark ranging North of the Wall. Old Bear Mormont leading the majority of the Night's Watch North of the Wall. The FiSt of the First Men. Qhorin Half-Hand sacrificing himself to Jon Snow so word could reach back to the Watch. Stannis accepting the burden. Stannis forsaking the faith of the land and accepting the spread of R'hllor/the Red God. Stannis killing his brother through shadowbinding. Stannis and Melisandre sacrificing folk to the flames. Daenerys Targaryen losing her unborn child. Daenerys Targaryen birthing dragons back into the world. Daenerys enduring the Red Wastes. Daenerys visions in the House of the Undying. Mance Rayder gathering the largest army the world has ever seen. Jon Snow watching Ygritte die. Stannis forsaking pursuing the Throne to aid the Night's Watch. Stannis leading his army North to take Winterfell. Mance Rayder choosing to be burned alive. Bran going North of the Wall. Jojen sacrificing himself for Bran. Bran becoming the 3ER. Hodor Holding the Door. Jon giving The Gift to the Wildlings. Jon harboring Alys Karstark. Jon Snow choosing to fight Ramsay Snow. Jon Snow dying and being resurrected. Berric Dondarrion being resurrected a dozen or so times. Daenerys Targaryen choosing to turn her army North instead of South to claim her rights by all the laws of Gods and Men. Jon Snow giving up his title as King of the North to gain Daenerys as an ally.

ALL OF THAT, PLUS MORE, that was all for NOTHING. These people were all idiots. They should have listened to Cercei and the skeptics this whole time, for if they had done nothing, they would all be better off. The only exception perhaps being Mance Rayder, but if he had known the WW's were so easy a threat to be dismayed by a dragonglass/dragonsteel dagger to the heart of their leader, perhaps he would not have chosen to lead his army South.

The truth is that had everyone done nothing, the WW's would not have been able to breach the Wall. The Wall protected against the WW's crossing over for thousands of years, and as Benjen Stark noted, its magic protects undead from crossing over. It was only through the stupid act of doing something, of actually taking the threat serious, that allowed the NK to claim one of Dany's dragons and use it to knock down The Wall. But, if everyone had just sat down and done nothing, nobody would have needed to die. The World would have been safe. Cercei was right.



And now we get to the crux of the antithetical nature of this resolution. Martin has compared the WW threat as being akin to Climate Change. But, according to this last episode, climate change skeptics are all right. Climate Change isn't that big of deal. We don't need the whole world working together to solve this issue. In fact, you just need a small band of dedicated individuals, including a savant child. They will sacrifice everything and solve the issue. Meanwhile, you can sit back and race your Hummers down the highway all you want, guzzle down gallons of gas, pump more and more toxins into the sky to produce ever more junk, throw your plastic trash into the sea, and deregulate the entire environmental protection laws and agencies. You were a fucking idiot to believe you had to sacrifice anything to make the world a better place, all it ever took was a sacrifice from a few individuals whom you've never heard of and will likely never hear of. They solved everything while you sat back and relaxed, unaware there was even a problem in the first place. And with climate change forever solved, they too can get back to squabbling over taxes and pieces of imaginary lines on a map.

Hoooray, did we subvert your expectations?

This isn't about Arya jumping the Night King from behind, it's the underlying message behind it all. Nothing that we saw in the past seven seasons meant anything, all of those sacrifices and pains were for naught. The WW's were not some end of the world threat that required everyone in the world to pay attention and work together to solve. They were a minor inconvenience that affected only the North and were defeated without ever leaving the North.

I could keep going since idiots keep thinking that the book prophecies are actually all dumb and meaningless. News flash, they aren't. But, that's a whole separate topic and veers too hard into the books. What I've just laid out is the real reason people hate the episode. And, we haven't even gotten into the actual nitpicky nonsense regarding the actual battle of the episode. Artillery in the front lines. Cavalry charging in the dark into the front lines of the enemy instead of waiting on the flanks. No hot oil to repel climbing invaders. A comically small moat of fire. No proper barricades of the main entrance. No one realizing that a dude that can raise the dead can actually raise the dead and thus sticking everyone in the crypts is a bad idea. Just LOL.

But, but Mr. BossAttack , this series is called Game of Thrones, it's actually always been about the politics. Fuck you and STFU. No, it's not. The show hasn't been about "complex politics" since it ran out of books to adapt. It's why every political character turned into a DUNCE with an extra big D on their hat the moment they left Kings Landing. Varys, Tyrion, Littlefinger, all of them turned into slack jawed yokels that couldn't rub to pennies together in their heads once the books dried up. Even worse, they made decisions that flew in the face of all political acumen and logic in the world. Littlefinger openly gives Sansa to Roose Bolton. Sansa! A declared traitor to the Crown that Cercei has demanded the head of, LF gives her up openly despite owing all his lands and titles to the Crown which they can easily snatch from him. He does this to gain…oh that's right to gain fuck all because it was all a contrivance to have Sansa raped for shock value.

Now that the NK is gone you expect me to get invested back in the politics of the world when the politics haven't made sense for five seasons? How can I get invested with Cercei as the main villain? Cercei makes no sense. I can't invest myself in an enemy that adheres to no logic. How does Cercei have any allies or power? She blew up the holiest site in Westeros along with the Pope and all the great Nobles Houses are like, "okay, cool." And, all the superstitious peasant folk that incited a small uprising that ousted the previous Pope and installed a People's Pope are equally just okay with what Cercei did. Cercei also has gold and resources to back her that just spring from nowhere. The Iron Bank are also keen to back her. Why? At least if this was the books we could justify it by saying that the Iron Bank despises the return of dragons. But the show never set this up, so it's irrelevant. Why should the Iron Bank back a crazy lady when Daenerys seems a more stable ruler and under her father's reign the Crown's coffers were overflowing and the Crown's debts were being paid on time?

Tell me again, how do I invest in such a comical enemy when nothing about her makes sense? The NK was at least nice because you didn't have to think, he was just pure evil. He didn't speak and he had one goal, kill everything. You didn't have to think about the dumb politics or logistics. It was an enemy made for D&D (hell, one they made up) and now he's gone. Now, we have to go back to an enemy you do have to think about and who makes no sense.



Do you understand the problem?
honestly, nobody cares. we just want to enjoy GOT and this episode did a great job in providing the much needed action, Got core fanbase should accept that the show is no longer for them, but for a worldwide audience who gives two shits about all the details in the book.
 

Deleted member 3897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,638
Yeah, this, plus Sam not being killed by the white walker that looked starigh at him in the S2 finale. I dn't think they're the mindless killing machines that a lot of the people are saying they are. Or at least, they were maybe not meant to be, originally.

Yeah, I have not either believed that they are just mindless killing machines, that they can be reasoned with.

And this episode just fucked it all over, unless something happens during the next 3 episodes, maybe there's something Bran is lying about or not telling, but I doubt it.

The NK being just a mass murderer bad guy is the exact opposite of the world themes GRRM has created, that everything is not black and white.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,599
Let me just once and for all explain why people are upset. And, Morrigan can back me up if she thinks I'm hitting the mark. This is going to be my grand, end all be all, post on the subject so strap the fuck in. In this laborious post, I will be using examples from both the books and the show. This is to prove how it fails on both levels. And, to understand the extent to which the show failed to adhere to the point of the series/text. Accordingly, to avoid confusion, I'll be placing book reference in italicizes while show references will remain in regular text. Let's go:


The show might be called Game of Thrones, but the novels are part of a series titled A Song of Ice and Fire. The series is not about the Iron Throne, the Throne is not important. That is at least what Martin seems to be building towards. All of these petty lords and humans squabbling over a piece of iron while a true world ending threat is just outside their door step. This is why he has compared the WW threat to climate change. The world is about to be drowned in rising sea levels, but Republicans will still argue over taxes and regulations. The show and the books literally both start with the introduction of the White Walkers/The Others. It's what the series has always been about.

We're told that long ago the White Walkers came and heralded in a Long Night that lasted a generation all across the world. Kings and Queens froze to death in their castles the same as lowly peasants in their hovels. And, whole people were born, lived, and died in the dark night, never seeing the sun. See (Old Nan Tale S1). It was at some point during these times that a Hero arose that fought back the Darkness. He/She rallied the forces of the world fighting against the WW's with a flaming sword called Lightbringer. This legendary figure's name is different in each culture/part of the world: Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon the Hero, Eldric Shadowchaser, The Last Hero, or The Prince that Was Promised. But all agree that they turned the tide in the conflict and ultimately won back the Day.

However, the threat was not outright defeated as the forces of the world clearly believed the forces of the Night would return again someday. Thus, in the West, the Wall was constructed and the Night's Watch was formed to "Guard the Realms of Men." In the east, the Five Forts of Yi Ti were constructed. And, it is there in the East that the religion of R'hllor, the Red God, birthed, spread, and prophesied that the Long Night would come again and usher in a New War for the Dawn and that Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised would be reborn to lead humanity to victory against this conflict.

Why am I mentioning all of this? Who cares? Well, it's because for SEVEN SEASONS (and five books) we have been primed and prepared for the coming of the Long Night again. We've been told again and again that, "WINTER IS COMING." We've been told that nothing else matters, that this squabbling over the Thorne is meaningless and is blinding everyone from the true threat in the North. The last time the White Walkers came, the forces of Men at least had the Children of the Forest and their magic on their side. But, over the years, magic has faded from the world and the memories of men are fleeting. The Night's Watch has been reduced to an "army of undisciplined boys and tired old men" with less than "a thousand" left, so few The Watch can only man three castles across The Wall. See (Maester Aemon, S1E03). And, no one in the realm believes the White Walkers were even real to begin with but instead just another fairytale next to the tales of Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder during the Age of Heroes. See (Maester Luwin S1). The stage is set for humanity to be hit with a rude awakening once Winter Comes as they are totally unprepared and unwilling to get prepared.

Now, let's fast forward to last Sunday's episode, the White Walker threat was completely eradicated in their first major confrontation/battle with the forces of Men. And, the Night King turned into little shards of ice after being jumped from behind. This great battle was waged by the battered remaining remnants of the Northern Houses who managed to survive two back-to-back civil wars; reinforcements from the Vale; and the surviving members of Daenerys Targaryen's Essos army who (much like the Northerners) were also diminished time and again by perpetual warfare and conquest. No army South of the Neck joined the Battle. No River Lords, a half a dozen Iron Islanders, no Stormlanders, no one in the Marches, no one from the West (besides a one-armed Knight), no one from the South in either Dorne or the Arbor, no Sword of the Morning, no one from the Reach (besides a fat failed Maester), no one from any of the Free Cities of Essos, no group of Faceless Men, no contingent of Red Priests and/or Shadowbinders from Asshai or Volantis, no gang of Braavosi water dancers, not a single free company from Lys, Tyrosh, or Myr; NOTHING.

No one South of the Neck has even seen a White Walker, nor will they ever see one at this point. No one South of the Neck had to risk anything, sacrifice anything, or suffer any consequences for ignoring the threat to the North. The Reach is an area of bountiful harvests, bursting with food. They will never know hunger or starvation or the effects of a hundred year long dark winter. They will only know Arbor Gold wine and fat stacks of bread. They contributed NOTHING to the eventual conflict that threatened the world and gained EVERYTHING.

And so now we cut to the especially hard truth of the matter, nothing mattered. Every sacrifice was pointless and worthless. Benjen Stark ranging North of the Wall. Old Bear Mormont leading the majority of the Night's Watch North of the Wall. The FiSt of the First Men. Qhorin Half-Hand sacrificing himself to Jon Snow so word could reach back to the Watch. Stannis accepting the burden. Stannis forsaking the faith of the land and accepting the spread of R'hllor/the Red God. Stannis killing his brother through shadowbinding. Stannis and Melisandre sacrificing folk to the flames. Daenerys Targaryen losing her unborn child. Daenerys Targaryen birthing dragons back into the world. Daenerys enduring the Red Wastes. Daenerys visions in the House of the Undying. Mance Rayder gathering the largest army the world has ever seen. Jon Snow watching Ygritte die. Stannis forsaking pursuing the Throne to aid the Night's Watch. Stannis leading his army North to take Winterfell. Mance Rayder choosing to be burned alive. Bran going North of the Wall. Jojen sacrificing himself for Bran. Bran becoming the 3ER. Hodor Holding the Door. Jon giving The Gift to the Wildlings. Jon harboring Alys Karstark. Jon Snow choosing to fight Ramsay Snow. Jon Snow dying and being resurrected. Berric Dondarrion being resurrected a dozen or so times. Daenerys Targaryen choosing to turn her army North instead of South to claim her rights by all the laws of Gods and Men. Jon Snow giving up his title as King of the North to gain Daenerys as an ally.

ALL OF THAT, PLUS MORE, that was all for NOTHING. These people were all idiots. They should have listened to Cercei and the skeptics this whole time, for if they had done nothing, they would all be better off. The only exception perhaps being Mance Rayder, but if he had known the WW's were so easy a threat to be dismayed by a dragonglass/dragonsteel dagger to the heart of their leader, perhaps he would not have chosen to lead his army South.

The truth is that had everyone done nothing, the WW's would not have been able to breach the Wall. The Wall protected against the WW's crossing over for thousands of years, and as Benjen Stark noted, its magic protects undead from crossing over. It was only through the stupid act of doing something, of actually taking the threat serious, that allowed the NK to claim one of Dany's dragons and use it to knock down The Wall. But, if everyone had just sat down and done nothing, nobody would have needed to die. The World would have been safe. Cercei was right.



And now we get to the crux of the antithetical nature of this resolution. Martin has compared the WW threat as being akin to Climate Change. But, according to this last episode, climate change skeptics are all right. Climate Change isn't that big of deal. We don't need the whole world working together to solve this issue. In fact, you just need a small band of dedicated individuals, including a savant child. They will sacrifice everything and solve the issue. Meanwhile, you can sit back and race your Hummers down the highway all you want, guzzle down gallons of gas, pump more and more toxins into the sky to produce ever more junk, throw your plastic trash into the sea, and deregulate the entire environmental protection laws and agencies. You were a fucking idiot to believe you had to sacrifice anything to make the world a better place, all it ever took was a sacrifice from a few individuals whom you've never heard of and will likely never hear of. They solved everything while you sat back and relaxed, unaware there was even a problem in the first place. And with climate change forever solved, they too can get back to squabbling over taxes and pieces of imaginary lines on a map.

Hoooray, did we subvert your expectations?

This isn't about Arya jumping the Night King from behind, it's the underlying message behind it all. Nothing that we saw in the past seven seasons meant anything, all of those sacrifices and pains were for naught. The WW's were not some end of the world threat that required everyone in the world to pay attention and work together to solve. They were a minor inconvenience that affected only the North and were defeated without ever leaving the North.

I could keep going since idiots keep thinking that the book prophecies are actually all dumb and meaningless. News flash, they aren't. But, that's a whole separate topic and veers too hard into the books. What I've just laid out is the real reason people hate the episode. And, we haven't even gotten into the actual nitpicky nonsense regarding the actual battle of the episode. Artillery in the front lines. Cavalry charging in the dark into the front lines of the enemy instead of waiting on the flanks. No hot oil to repel climbing invaders. A comically small moat of fire. No proper barricades of the main entrance. No one realizing that a dude that can raise the dead can actually raise the dead and thus sticking everyone in the crypts is a bad idea. Just LOL.

But, but Mr. BossAttack , this series is called Game of Thrones, it's actually always been about the politics. Fuck you and STFU. No, it's not. The show hasn't been about "complex politics" since it ran out of books to adapt. It's why every political character turned into a DUNCE with an extra big D on their hat the moment they left Kings Landing. Varys, Tyrion, Littlefinger, all of them turned into slack jawed yokels that couldn't rub to pennies together in their heads once the books dried up. Even worse, they made decisions that flew in the face of all political acumen and logic in the world. Littlefinger openly gives Sansa to Roose Bolton. Sansa! A declared traitor to the Crown that Cercei has demanded the head of, LF gives her up openly despite owing all his lands and titles to the Crown which they can easily snatch from him. He does this to gain…oh that's right to gain fuck all because it was all a contrivance to have Sansa raped for shock value.

Now that the NK is gone you expect me to get invested back in the politics of the world when the politics haven't made sense for five seasons? How can I get invested with Cercei as the main villain? Cercei makes no sense. I can't invest myself in an enemy that adheres to no logic. How does Cercei have any allies or power? She blew up the holiest site in Westeros along with the Pope and all the great Nobles Houses are like, "okay, cool." And, all the superstitious peasant folk that incited a small uprising that ousted the previous Pope and installed a People's Pope are equally just okay with what Cercei did. Cercei also has gold and resources to back her that just spring from nowhere. The Iron Bank are also keen to back her. Why? At least if this was the books we could justify it by saying that the Iron Bank despises the return of dragons. But the show never set this up, so it's irrelevant. Why should the Iron Bank back a crazy lady when Daenerys seems a more stable ruler and under her father's reign the Crown's coffers were overflowing and the Crown's debts were being paid on time?

Tell me again, how do I invest in such a comical enemy when nothing about her makes sense? The NK was at least nice because you didn't have to think, he was just pure evil. He didn't speak and he had one goal, kill everything. You didn't have to think about the dumb politics or logistics. It was an enemy made for D&D (hell, one they made up) and now he's gone. Now, we have to go back to an enemy you do have to think about and who makes no sense.



Do you understand the problem?
Thank you, this is it.
 

takriel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,221
Let me just once and for all explain why people are upset. And, Morrigan can back me up if she thinks I'm hitting the mark. This is going to be my grand, end all be all, post on the subject so strap the fuck in. In this laborious post, I will be using examples from both the books and the show. This is to prove how it fails on both levels. And, to understand the extent to which the show failed to adhere to the point of the series/text. Accordingly, to avoid confusion, I'll be placing book reference in italicizes while show references will remain in regular text. Let's go:


The show might be called Game of Thrones, but the novels are part of a series titled A Song of Ice and Fire. The series is not about the Iron Throne, the Throne is not important. That is at least what Martin seems to be building towards. All of these petty lords and humans squabbling over a piece of iron while a true world ending threat is just outside their door step. This is why he has compared the WW threat to climate change. The world is about to be drowned in rising sea levels, but Republicans will still argue over taxes and regulations. The show and the books literally both start with the introduction of the White Walkers/The Others. It's what the series has always been about.

We're told that long ago the White Walkers came and heralded in a Long Night that lasted a generation all across the world. Kings and Queens froze to death in their castles the same as lowly peasants in their hovels. And, whole people were born, lived, and died in the dark night, never seeing the sun. See (Old Nan Tale S1). It was at some point during these times that a Hero arose that fought back the Darkness. He/She rallied the forces of the world fighting against the WW's with a flaming sword called Lightbringer. This legendary figure's name is different in each culture/part of the world: Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon the Hero, Eldric Shadowchaser, The Last Hero, or The Prince that Was Promised. But all agree that they turned the tide in the conflict and ultimately won back the Day.

However, the threat was not outright defeated as the forces of the world clearly believed the forces of the Night would return again someday. Thus, in the West, the Wall was constructed and the Night's Watch was formed to "Guard the Realms of Men." In the east, the Five Forts of Yi Ti were constructed. And, it is there in the East that the religion of R'hllor, the Red God, birthed, spread, and prophesied that the Long Night would come again and usher in a New War for the Dawn and that Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised would be reborn to lead humanity to victory against this conflict.

Why am I mentioning all of this? Who cares? Well, it's because for SEVEN SEASONS (and five books) we have been primed and prepared for the coming of the Long Night again. We've been told again and again that, "WINTER IS COMING." We've been told that nothing else matters, that this squabbling over the Thorne is meaningless and is blinding everyone from the true threat in the North. The last time the White Walkers came, the forces of Men at least had the Children of the Forest and their magic on their side. But, over the years, magic has faded from the world and the memories of men are fleeting. The Night's Watch has been reduced to an "army of undisciplined boys and tired old men" with less than "a thousand" left, so few The Watch can only man three castles across The Wall. See (Maester Aemon, S1E03). And, no one in the realm believes the White Walkers were even real to begin with but instead just another fairytale next to the tales of Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder during the Age of Heroes. See (Maester Luwin S1). The stage is set for humanity to be hit with a rude awakening once Winter Comes as they are totally unprepared and unwilling to get prepared.

Now, let's fast forward to last Sunday's episode, the White Walker threat was completely eradicated in their first major confrontation/battle with the forces of Men. And, the Night King turned into little shards of ice after being jumped from behind. This great battle was waged by the battered remaining remnants of the Northern Houses who managed to survive two back-to-back civil wars; reinforcements from the Vale; and the surviving members of Daenerys Targaryen's Essos army who (much like the Northerners) were also diminished time and again by perpetual warfare and conquest. No army South of the Neck joined the Battle. No River Lords, a half a dozen Iron Islanders, no Stormlanders, no one in the Marches, no one from the West (besides a one-armed Knight), no one from the South in either Dorne or the Arbor, no Sword of the Morning, no one from the Reach (besides a fat failed Maester), no one from any of the Free Cities of Essos, no group of Faceless Men, no contingent of Red Priests and/or Shadowbinders from Asshai or Volantis, no gang of Braavosi water dancers, not a single free company from Lys, Tyrosh, or Myr; NOTHING.

No one South of the Neck has even seen a White Walker, nor will they ever see one at this point. No one South of the Neck had to risk anything, sacrifice anything, or suffer any consequences for ignoring the threat to the North. The Reach is an area of bountiful harvests, bursting with food. They will never know hunger or starvation or the effects of a hundred year long dark winter. They will only know Arbor Gold wine and fat stacks of bread. They contributed NOTHING to the eventual conflict that threatened the world and gained EVERYTHING.

And so now we cut to the especially hard truth of the matter, nothing mattered. Every sacrifice was pointless and worthless. Benjen Stark ranging North of the Wall. Old Bear Mormont leading the majority of the Night's Watch North of the Wall. The FiSt of the First Men. Qhorin Half-Hand sacrificing himself to Jon Snow so word could reach back to the Watch. Stannis accepting the burden. Stannis forsaking the faith of the land and accepting the spread of R'hllor/the Red God. Stannis killing his brother through shadowbinding. Stannis and Melisandre sacrificing folk to the flames. Daenerys Targaryen losing her unborn child. Daenerys Targaryen birthing dragons back into the world. Daenerys enduring the Red Wastes. Daenerys visions in the House of the Undying. Mance Rayder gathering the largest army the world has ever seen. Jon Snow watching Ygritte die. Stannis forsaking pursuing the Throne to aid the Night's Watch. Stannis leading his army North to take Winterfell. Mance Rayder choosing to be burned alive. Bran going North of the Wall. Jojen sacrificing himself for Bran. Bran becoming the 3ER. Hodor Holding the Door. Jon giving The Gift to the Wildlings. Jon harboring Alys Karstark. Jon Snow choosing to fight Ramsay Snow. Jon Snow dying and being resurrected. Berric Dondarrion being resurrected a dozen or so times. Daenerys Targaryen choosing to turn her army North instead of South to claim her rights by all the laws of Gods and Men. Jon Snow giving up his title as King of the North to gain Daenerys as an ally.

ALL OF THAT, PLUS MORE, that was all for NOTHING. These people were all idiots. They should have listened to Cercei and the skeptics this whole time, for if they had done nothing, they would all be better off. The only exception perhaps being Mance Rayder, but if he had known the WW's were so easy a threat to be dismayed by a dragonglass/dragonsteel dagger to the heart of their leader, perhaps he would not have chosen to lead his army South.

The truth is that had everyone done nothing, the WW's would not have been able to breach the Wall. The Wall protected against the WW's crossing over for thousands of years, and as Benjen Stark noted, its magic protects undead from crossing over. It was only through the stupid act of doing something, of actually taking the threat serious, that allowed the NK to claim one of Dany's dragons and use it to knock down The Wall. But, if everyone had just sat down and done nothing, nobody would have needed to die. The World would have been safe. Cercei was right.



And now we get to the crux of the antithetical nature of this resolution. Martin has compared the WW threat as being akin to Climate Change. But, according to this last episode, climate change skeptics are all right. Climate Change isn't that big of deal. We don't need the whole world working together to solve this issue. In fact, you just need a small band of dedicated individuals, including a savant child. They will sacrifice everything and solve the issue. Meanwhile, you can sit back and race your Hummers down the highway all you want, guzzle down gallons of gas, pump more and more toxins into the sky to produce ever more junk, throw your plastic trash into the sea, and deregulate the entire environmental protection laws and agencies. You were a fucking idiot to believe you had to sacrifice anything to make the world a better place, all it ever took was a sacrifice from a few individuals whom you've never heard of and will likely never hear of. They solved everything while you sat back and relaxed, unaware there was even a problem in the first place. And with climate change forever solved, they too can get back to squabbling over taxes and pieces of imaginary lines on a map.

Hoooray, did we subvert your expectations?

This isn't about Arya jumping the Night King from behind, it's the underlying message behind it all. Nothing that we saw in the past seven seasons meant anything, all of those sacrifices and pains were for naught. The WW's were not some end of the world threat that required everyone in the world to pay attention and work together to solve. They were a minor inconvenience that affected only the North and were defeated without ever leaving the North.

I could keep going since idiots keep thinking that the book prophecies are actually all dumb and meaningless. News flash, they aren't. But, that's a whole separate topic and veers too hard into the books. What I've just laid out is the real reason people hate the episode. And, we haven't even gotten into the actual nitpicky nonsense regarding the actual battle of the episode. Artillery in the front lines. Cavalry charging in the dark into the front lines of the enemy instead of waiting on the flanks. No hot oil to repel climbing invaders. A comically small moat of fire. No proper barricades of the main entrance. No one realizing that a dude that can raise the dead can actually raise the dead and thus sticking everyone in the crypts is a bad idea. Just LOL.

But, but Mr. BossAttack , this series is called Game of Thrones, it's actually always been about the politics. Fuck you and STFU. No, it's not. The show hasn't been about "complex politics" since it ran out of books to adapt. It's why every political character turned into a DUNCE with an extra big D on their hat the moment they left Kings Landing. Varys, Tyrion, Littlefinger, all of them turned into slack jawed yokels that couldn't rub to pennies together in their heads once the books dried up. Even worse, they made decisions that flew in the face of all political acumen and logic in the world. Littlefinger openly gives Sansa to Roose Bolton. Sansa! A declared traitor to the Crown that Cercei has demanded the head of, LF gives her up openly despite owing all his lands and titles to the Crown which they can easily snatch from him. He does this to gain…oh that's right to gain fuck all because it was all a contrivance to have Sansa raped for shock value.

Now that the NK is gone you expect me to get invested back in the politics of the world when the politics haven't made sense for five seasons? How can I get invested with Cercei as the main villain? Cercei makes no sense. I can't invest myself in an enemy that adheres to no logic. How does Cercei have any allies or power? She blew up the holiest site in Westeros along with the Pope and all the great Nobles Houses are like, "okay, cool." And, all the superstitious peasant folk that incited a small uprising that ousted the previous Pope and installed a People's Pope are equally just okay with what Cercei did. Cercei also has gold and resources to back her that just spring from nowhere. The Iron Bank are also keen to back her. Why? At least if this was the books we could justify it by saying that the Iron Bank despises the return of dragons. But the show never set this up, so it's irrelevant. Why should the Iron Bank back a crazy lady when Daenerys seems a more stable ruler and under her father's reign the Crown's coffers were overflowing and the Crown's debts were being paid on time?

Tell me again, how do I invest in such a comical enemy when nothing about her makes sense? The NK was at least nice because you didn't have to think, he was just pure evil. He didn't speak and he had one goal, kill everything. You didn't have to think about the dumb politics or logistics. It was an enemy made for D&D (hell, one they made up) and now he's gone. Now, we have to go back to an enemy you do have to think about and who makes no sense.



Do you understand the problem?
Very much agree with your post. Thanks for taking the time and writing it up.

honestly, nobody cares. we just want to enjoy GOT and this episode did a great job in providing the much needed action, Got core fanbase should accept that the show is no longer for them, but for a worldwide audience who gives two shits about all the details in the book.

What a terrible take.
 

NuclearCake

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,867
Let me just once and for all explain why people are upset. And, Morrigan can back me up if she thinks I'm hitting the mark. This is going to be my grand, end all be all, post on the subject so strap the fuck in. In this laborious post, I will be using examples from both the books and the show. This is to prove how it fails on both levels. And, to understand the extent to which the show failed to adhere to the point of the series/text. Accordingly, to avoid confusion, I'll be placing book reference in italicizes while show references will remain in regular text. Let's go:


The show might be called Game of Thrones, but the novels are part of a series titled A Song of Ice and Fire. The series is not about the Iron Throne, the Throne is not important. That is at least what Martin seems to be building towards. All of these petty lords and humans squabbling over a piece of iron while a true world ending threat is just outside their door step. This is why he has compared the WW threat to climate change. The world is about to be drowned in rising sea levels, but Republicans will still argue over taxes and regulations. The show and the books literally both start with the introduction of the White Walkers/The Others. It's what the series has always been about.

We're told that long ago the White Walkers came and heralded in a Long Night that lasted a generation all across the world. Kings and Queens froze to death in their castles the same as lowly peasants in their hovels. And, whole people were born, lived, and died in the dark night, never seeing the sun. See (Old Nan Tale S1). It was at some point during these times that a Hero arose that fought back the Darkness. He/She rallied the forces of the world fighting against the WW's with a flaming sword called Lightbringer. This legendary figure's name is different in each culture/part of the world: Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon the Hero, Eldric Shadowchaser, The Last Hero, or The Prince that Was Promised. But all agree that they turned the tide in the conflict and ultimately won back the Day.

However, the threat was not outright defeated as the forces of the world clearly believed the forces of the Night would return again someday. Thus, in the West, the Wall was constructed and the Night's Watch was formed to "Guard the Realms of Men." In the east, the Five Forts of Yi Ti were constructed. And, it is there in the East that the religion of R'hllor, the Red God, birthed, spread, and prophesied that the Long Night would come again and usher in a New War for the Dawn and that Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised would be reborn to lead humanity to victory against this conflict.

Why am I mentioning all of this? Who cares? Well, it's because for SEVEN SEASONS (and five books) we have been primed and prepared for the coming of the Long Night again. We've been told again and again that, "WINTER IS COMING." We've been told that nothing else matters, that this squabbling over the Thorne is meaningless and is blinding everyone from the true threat in the North. The last time the White Walkers came, the forces of Men at least had the Children of the Forest and their magic on their side. But, over the years, magic has faded from the world and the memories of men are fleeting. The Night's Watch has been reduced to an "army of undisciplined boys and tired old men" with less than "a thousand" left, so few The Watch can only man three castles across The Wall. See (Maester Aemon, S1E03). And, no one in the realm believes the White Walkers were even real to begin with but instead just another fairytale next to the tales of Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder during the Age of Heroes. See (Maester Luwin S1). The stage is set for humanity to be hit with a rude awakening once Winter Comes as they are totally unprepared and unwilling to get prepared.

Now, let's fast forward to last Sunday's episode, the White Walker threat was completely eradicated in their first major confrontation/battle with the forces of Men. And, the Night King turned into little shards of ice after being jumped from behind. This great battle was waged by the battered remaining remnants of the Northern Houses who managed to survive two back-to-back civil wars; reinforcements from the Vale; and the surviving members of Daenerys Targaryen's Essos army who (much like the Northerners) were also diminished time and again by perpetual warfare and conquest. No army South of the Neck joined the Battle. No River Lords, a half a dozen Iron Islanders, no Stormlanders, no one in the Marches, no one from the West (besides a one-armed Knight), no one from the South in either Dorne or the Arbor, no Sword of the Morning, no one from the Reach (besides a fat failed Maester), no one from any of the Free Cities of Essos, no group of Faceless Men, no contingent of Red Priests and/or Shadowbinders from Asshai or Volantis, no gang of Braavosi water dancers, not a single free company from Lys, Tyrosh, or Myr; NOTHING.

No one South of the Neck has even seen a White Walker, nor will they ever see one at this point. No one South of the Neck had to risk anything, sacrifice anything, or suffer any consequences for ignoring the threat to the North. The Reach is an area of bountiful harvests, bursting with food. They will never know hunger or starvation or the effects of a hundred year long dark winter. They will only know Arbor Gold wine and fat stacks of bread. They contributed NOTHING to the eventual conflict that threatened the world and gained EVERYTHING.

And so now we cut to the especially hard truth of the matter, nothing mattered. Every sacrifice was pointless and worthless. Benjen Stark ranging North of the Wall. Old Bear Mormont leading the majority of the Night's Watch North of the Wall. The FiSt of the First Men. Qhorin Half-Hand sacrificing himself to Jon Snow so word could reach back to the Watch. Stannis accepting the burden. Stannis forsaking the faith of the land and accepting the spread of R'hllor/the Red God. Stannis killing his brother through shadowbinding. Stannis and Melisandre sacrificing folk to the flames. Daenerys Targaryen losing her unborn child. Daenerys Targaryen birthing dragons back into the world. Daenerys enduring the Red Wastes. Daenerys visions in the House of the Undying. Mance Rayder gathering the largest army the world has ever seen. Jon Snow watching Ygritte die. Stannis forsaking pursuing the Throne to aid the Night's Watch. Stannis leading his army North to take Winterfell. Mance Rayder choosing to be burned alive. Bran going North of the Wall. Jojen sacrificing himself for Bran. Bran becoming the 3ER. Hodor Holding the Door. Jon giving The Gift to the Wildlings. Jon harboring Alys Karstark. Jon Snow choosing to fight Ramsay Snow. Jon Snow dying and being resurrected. Berric Dondarrion being resurrected a dozen or so times. Daenerys Targaryen choosing to turn her army North instead of South to claim her rights by all the laws of Gods and Men. Jon Snow giving up his title as King of the North to gain Daenerys as an ally.

ALL OF THAT, PLUS MORE, that was all for NOTHING. These people were all idiots. They should have listened to Cercei and the skeptics this whole time, for if they had done nothing, they would all be better off. The only exception perhaps being Mance Rayder, but if he had known the WW's were so easy a threat to be dismayed by a dragonglass/dragonsteel dagger to the heart of their leader, perhaps he would not have chosen to lead his army South.

The truth is that had everyone done nothing, the WW's would not have been able to breach the Wall. The Wall protected against the WW's crossing over for thousands of years, and as Benjen Stark noted, its magic protects undead from crossing over. It was only through the stupid act of doing something, of actually taking the threat serious, that allowed the NK to claim one of Dany's dragons and use it to knock down The Wall. But, if everyone had just sat down and done nothing, nobody would have needed to die. The World would have been safe. Cercei was right.



And now we get to the crux of the antithetical nature of this resolution. Martin has compared the WW threat as being akin to Climate Change. But, according to this last episode, climate change skeptics are all right. Climate Change isn't that big of deal. We don't need the whole world working together to solve this issue. In fact, you just need a small band of dedicated individuals, including a savant child. They will sacrifice everything and solve the issue. Meanwhile, you can sit back and race your Hummers down the highway all you want, guzzle down gallons of gas, pump more and more toxins into the sky to produce ever more junk, throw your plastic trash into the sea, and deregulate the entire environmental protection laws and agencies. You were a fucking idiot to believe you had to sacrifice anything to make the world a better place, all it ever took was a sacrifice from a few individuals whom you've never heard of and will likely never hear of. They solved everything while you sat back and relaxed, unaware there was even a problem in the first place. And with climate change forever solved, they too can get back to squabbling over taxes and pieces of imaginary lines on a map.

Hoooray, did we subvert your expectations?

This isn't about Arya jumping the Night King from behind, it's the underlying message behind it all. Nothing that we saw in the past seven seasons meant anything, all of those sacrifices and pains were for naught. The WW's were not some end of the world threat that required everyone in the world to pay attention and work together to solve. They were a minor inconvenience that affected only the North and were defeated without ever leaving the North.

I could keep going since idiots keep thinking that the book prophecies are actually all dumb and meaningless. News flash, they aren't. But, that's a whole separate topic and veers too hard into the books. What I've just laid out is the real reason people hate the episode. And, we haven't even gotten into the actual nitpicky nonsense regarding the actual battle of the episode. Artillery in the front lines. Cavalry charging in the dark into the front lines of the enemy instead of waiting on the flanks. No hot oil to repel climbing invaders. A comically small moat of fire. No proper barricades of the main entrance. No one realizing that a dude that can raise the dead can actually raise the dead and thus sticking everyone in the crypts is a bad idea. Just LOL.

But, but Mr. BossAttack , this series is called Game of Thrones, it's actually always been about the politics. Fuck you and STFU. No, it's not. The show hasn't been about "complex politics" since it ran out of books to adapt. It's why every political character turned into a DUNCE with an extra big D on their hat the moment they left Kings Landing. Varys, Tyrion, Littlefinger, all of them turned into slack jawed yokels that couldn't rub to pennies together in their heads once the books dried up. Even worse, they made decisions that flew in the face of all political acumen and logic in the world. Littlefinger openly gives Sansa to Roose Bolton. Sansa! A declared traitor to the Crown that Cercei has demanded the head of, LF gives her up openly despite owing all his lands and titles to the Crown which they can easily snatch from him. He does this to gain…oh that's right to gain fuck all because it was all a contrivance to have Sansa raped for shock value.

Now that the NK is gone you expect me to get invested back in the politics of the world when the politics haven't made sense for five seasons? How can I get invested with Cercei as the main villain? Cercei makes no sense. I can't invest myself in an enemy that adheres to no logic. How does Cercei have any allies or power? She blew up the holiest site in Westeros along with the Pope and all the great Nobles Houses are like, "okay, cool." And, all the superstitious peasant folk that incited a small uprising that ousted the previous Pope and installed a People's Pope are equally just okay with what Cercei did. Cercei also has gold and resources to back her that just spring from nowhere. The Iron Bank are also keen to back her. Why? At least if this was the books we could justify it by saying that the Iron Bank despises the return of dragons. But the show never set this up, so it's irrelevant. Why should the Iron Bank back a crazy lady when Daenerys seems a more stable ruler and under her father's reign the Crown's coffers were overflowing and the Crown's debts were being paid on time?

Tell me again, how do I invest in such a comical enemy when nothing about her makes sense? The NK was at least nice because you didn't have to think, he was just pure evil. He didn't speak and he had one goal, kill everything. You didn't have to think about the dumb politics or logistics. It was an enemy made for D&D (hell, one they made up) and now he's gone. Now, we have to go back to an enemy you do have to think about and who makes no sense.



Do you understand the problem?

Thank you for this excellent post. This episode made the show into a joke.
 

Deleted member 42055

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I dunno, maybe after John saw Benjen cut through the wight horde on horseback he thought the dothraki would wreck them.
The people at my work talking about it were massively disappointed that they had the white walkers hyped up for 8 seasons only to be fallen at their first actual battle. Add to the fact that the Night King and the White Walkers themselves did absolutely nothing.

It's okay to be dissatisfied and it's okay to be happy. I voted that I enjoyed it in the poll but I wouldn't handwave criticism and suggest that people are joyless or aggressively analysing things.

It's quite evident why people are unhappy and it's not people looking too deeply at it, it's pretty surface level.

Idk man that post people keep quoting about " This is why we're mad" makes me think otherwise. Like daaaaaaamn.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,327
I agree with BossAttack's post, but at the same time, the great war had to end at some point. If it had ended in King's Landing with Jon drawing a burning sword, it would have been no less abrupt. They weren't ever going to bring all those various people into the show because it's still a television show because and production costs are a concern.

They have been saying long night, Night King, the only war that matters over and over and over again. This is why I hope the last conflict in this show isn't a war at all, but a fight of conscience between characters who all believe they're good and right, and there are no winners.

They presented a no-win scenario, an army that could not be defeated in battle. The best warriors fought them and they stayed true to the fact that they could not be beaten. It does not matter how many characters survived. The writers chose one "out" from a grab bag of many. It's not the one I would have picked, but the only way to end this war was an instant solution.
 

CD_93

Member
Dec 12, 2017
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I don't envy D&D.

The writer of the books can't do anything in good time so having to bring this all to a close because it's a TV show with actual living, breathing, aging people working on it to deadlines was always going to suck.
 

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I agree with BossAttack's post, but at the same time, the great war had to end at some point. If it had ended in King's Landing with Jon drawing a burning sword, it would have been no less abrupt. They weren't ever going to bring all those various people into the show because it's still a television show because and production costs are a concern.

They have been saying long night, Night King, the only war that matters over and over and over again. This is why I hope the last conflict in this show isn't a war at all, but a fight of conscience between characters who all believe they're good and right, and there are no winners.

They presented a no-win scenario, an army that could not be defeated in battle. The best warriors fought them and they stayed true to the fact that they could not be beaten. It does not matter how many characters survived. The writers chose one "out" from a grab bag of many. It's not the one I would have picked, but the only way to end this war was an instant solution.
there is definitely another big battle coming since we know that Sapochnik directed episode 3 and 5
 

AllenShrz

Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,011
honestly, nobody cares. we just want to enjoy GOT and this episode did a great job in providing the much needed action, Got core fanbase should accept that the show is no longer for them, but for a worldwide audience who gives two shits about all the details in the book.

Nobodycares so get bent.

Discusting post.
 

Katonix

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Oct 31, 2017
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Are we seriously questioning araya just because she doesn't fit the hero type to save the day mold?

The thing is they hyped NK from the beginning of series and give him so many super powers like bring back the dead, resisting fire breath of dragon, having thousand and thousands of zombies as army and so on and the first time he attacked he got fucked and died. This is so lame. I don't care about who killed him the fact that he died so easily is just so meh to me.
 

Deleted member 34385

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Nobodycares so get bent.

Discusting post.
why are you calling it disgusting? the truth is, nobody really (general audience) cares about all that. some people here are heated up, but the fact remains, the world enjoyed this episode, everyone i know mssged me saying it was the best thing they saw in television history...so...no its not disgusting.
 

fanboi

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Oct 25, 2017
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The thing is they hyped NK from the beginning of series and give him so many super powers like bring back the dead, resisting fire breath of dragon, having thousand and thousands of zombies as army and so on and the first time he attacked he got fucked and died. This is so lame. I don't care about who killed him the fact that he died so easily is just so meh to me.

Theon attacked him, Danerys attacked him, Jon tried to attack him.

So no, he didn't die easily.

Hell two dragons attacked him also.

EDIT: So they only way to realistically kill him was via a sneak attack and roll critical strike.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,054
Idk man that post people keep quoting about " This is why we're mad" makes me think otherwise. Like daaaaaaamn.
Its way, way more shit when you look 'deep' although I deny that Boss pointing out very obvious things that anyone who even has half an eye on the show should notice is 'deep', it's just a long post. If boss wanted to, and he easily could, he could write a fucking dissertation about why this episode was disappointing to a lot of people.
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,047
Got core fanbase should accept that the show is no longer for them, but for a worldwide audience who gives two shits about all the details in the book.

Oh believe me, we've known that for a few seasons. I don't really understand why we should accept it, though. It's a betrayal to both the fans and the source material. And denigrating the major themes of the books to being mere "details" is just ignorant.
 

Deleted member 42055

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why are you calling it disgusting? the truth is, nobody really (general audience) cares about all that. some people here are heated up, but the fact remains, the world enjoyed this episode, everyone i know mssged me saying it was the best thing they saw in television history...so...no its not disgusting.

Yea , my enjoyment of the show is much higher when I don't read this thread lol. I return to it because I find the ire fascinating.
 

TheGhost

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Oct 25, 2017
28,137
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The thing is they hyped NK from the beginning of series and give him so many super powers like bring back the dead, resisting fire breath of dragon, having thousand and thousands of zombies as army and so on and the first time he attacked he got fucked and died. This is so lame. I don't care about who killed him the fact that he died so easily is just so meh to me.
Short season and the tv show creators want it more about the throne than the undead. I don't like it either but it is what it is.
 

Katonix

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
790
Theon attacked him, Danerys attacked him, Jon tried to attack him.

So no, he didn't die easily.

Hell two dragons attacked him also.

EDIT: So they only way to realistically kill him was via a sneak attack and roll critical strike.
LOL
Ok so from now on everything is simple right?! they just need to send arya to sneak attack cersi and kill her. If she did it to NK its should be easier for her to do it to cersi right? the whole thing is just so lame and childish. Just go and watch the first 4 season again and you will find a lot of difference between an expert writing (first 4 season) and lets just finish it the most stupid way possible.
 

fanboi

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Oct 25, 2017
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LOL
Ok so from now on everything is simple right?! they just need to send arya to sneak attack cersi and kill her. If she did it to NK its should be easier for her to do it to cersi right? the whole thing is just so lame and childish. Just go and watch the first 4 season again and you will find a lot of difference between an expert writing (first 4 season) and lets just finish it the most stupid way possible.

While it wasn't the best way imo, it was not the most stupid way, not by a long shot.

And 'they just need to send arya to sneak attack cersi and kill her' is as tiresome as 'why didn't they fly the eagles to Mount Doom'.
 

Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,807
Now, just a wild theory out there... What if Qyburn finds an ancient scroll describing the ritual used by the CoF, and being as obsessed with experiments as he is decides to re-create a NK and undead army for his Queen? (Of course things then go out of control)
 

JCH!

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Oct 25, 2017
1,169
Tenerife
I really don't get posts dismissing the criticism, especially considering the main reason the show is popular now is because, at least in its early stages, it deviated from the typical tropes we've seen in other shows since forever. Last episode GoT reached peak trope and it's much worse because of it.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
Now, just a wild theory out there... What if Qyburn finds an ancient scroll describing the ritual used by the CoF, and being as obsessed with experiments as he is decides to re-create a NK and undead army for his Queen? (Of course things then go out of control)
cUeVXsK.gif

Honestly, could be a fun twist.
 

Igniz12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,434
Now, just a wild theory out there... What if Qyburn finds an ancient scroll describing the ritual used by the CoF, and being as obsessed with experiments as he is decides to re-create a NK and undead army for his Queen? (Of course things then go out of control)
All those people that just fought the NK in the north:
cover2.jpg
 

rashbeep

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,458
Let me just once and for all explain why people are upset. And, Morrigan can back me up if she thinks I'm hitting the mark. This is going to be my grand, end all be all, post on the subject so strap the fuck in. In this laborious post, I will be using examples from both the books and the show. This is to prove how it fails on both levels. And, to understand the extent to which the show failed to adhere to the point of the series/text. Accordingly, to avoid confusion, I'll be placing book reference in italicizes while show references will remain in regular text. Let's go:


The show might be called Game of Thrones, but the novels are part of a series titled A Song of Ice and Fire. The series is not about the Iron Throne, the Throne is not important. That is at least what Martin seems to be building towards. All of these petty lords and humans squabbling over a piece of iron while a true world ending threat is just outside their door step. This is why he has compared the WW threat to climate change. The world is about to be drowned in rising sea levels, but Republicans will still argue over taxes and regulations. The show and the books literally both start with the introduction of the White Walkers/The Others. It's what the series has always been about.

We're told that long ago the White Walkers came and heralded in a Long Night that lasted a generation all across the world. Kings and Queens froze to death in their castles the same as lowly peasants in their hovels. And, whole people were born, lived, and died in the dark night, never seeing the sun. See (Old Nan Tale S1). It was at some point during these times that a Hero arose that fought back the Darkness. He/She rallied the forces of the world fighting against the WW's with a flaming sword called Lightbringer. This legendary figure's name is different in each culture/part of the world: Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon the Hero, Eldric Shadowchaser, The Last Hero, or The Prince that Was Promised. But all agree that they turned the tide in the conflict and ultimately won back the Day.

However, the threat was not outright defeated as the forces of the world clearly believed the forces of the Night would return again someday. Thus, in the West, the Wall was constructed and the Night's Watch was formed to "Guard the Realms of Men." In the east, the Five Forts of Yi Ti were constructed. And, it is there in the East that the religion of R'hllor, the Red God, birthed, spread, and prophesied that the Long Night would come again and usher in a New War for the Dawn and that Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised would be reborn to lead humanity to victory against this conflict.

Why am I mentioning all of this? Who cares? Well, it's because for SEVEN SEASONS (and five books) we have been primed and prepared for the coming of the Long Night again. We've been told again and again that, "WINTER IS COMING." We've been told that nothing else matters, that this squabbling over the Thorne is meaningless and is blinding everyone from the true threat in the North. The last time the White Walkers came, the forces of Men at least had the Children of the Forest and their magic on their side. But, over the years, magic has faded from the world and the memories of men are fleeting. The Night's Watch has been reduced to an "army of undisciplined boys and tired old men" with less than "a thousand" left, so few The Watch can only man three castles across The Wall. See (Maester Aemon, S1E03). And, no one in the realm believes the White Walkers were even real to begin with but instead just another fairytale next to the tales of Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder during the Age of Heroes. See (Maester Luwin S1). The stage is set for humanity to be hit with a rude awakening once Winter Comes as they are totally unprepared and unwilling to get prepared.

Now, let's fast forward to last Sunday's episode, the White Walker threat was completely eradicated in their first major confrontation/battle with the forces of Men. And, the Night King turned into little shards of ice after being jumped from behind. This great battle was waged by the battered remaining remnants of the Northern Houses who managed to survive two back-to-back civil wars; reinforcements from the Vale; and the surviving members of Daenerys Targaryen's Essos army who (much like the Northerners) were also diminished time and again by perpetual warfare and conquest. No army South of the Neck joined the Battle. No River Lords, a half a dozen Iron Islanders, no Stormlanders, no one in the Marches, no one from the West (besides a one-armed Knight), no one from the South in either Dorne or the Arbor, no Sword of the Morning, no one from the Reach (besides a fat failed Maester), no one from any of the Free Cities of Essos, no group of Faceless Men, no contingent of Red Priests and/or Shadowbinders from Asshai or Volantis, no gang of Braavosi water dancers, not a single free company from Lys, Tyrosh, or Myr; NOTHING.

No one South of the Neck has even seen a White Walker, nor will they ever see one at this point. No one South of the Neck had to risk anything, sacrifice anything, or suffer any consequences for ignoring the threat to the North. The Reach is an area of bountiful harvests, bursting with food. They will never know hunger or starvation or the effects of a hundred year long dark winter. They will only know Arbor Gold wine and fat stacks of bread. They contributed NOTHING to the eventual conflict that threatened the world and gained EVERYTHING.

And so now we cut to the especially hard truth of the matter, nothing mattered. Every sacrifice was pointless and worthless. Benjen Stark ranging North of the Wall. Old Bear Mormont leading the majority of the Night's Watch North of the Wall. The FiSt of the First Men. Qhorin Half-Hand sacrificing himself to Jon Snow so word could reach back to the Watch. Stannis accepting the burden. Stannis forsaking the faith of the land and accepting the spread of R'hllor/the Red God. Stannis killing his brother through shadowbinding. Stannis and Melisandre sacrificing folk to the flames. Daenerys Targaryen losing her unborn child. Daenerys Targaryen birthing dragons back into the world. Daenerys enduring the Red Wastes. Daenerys visions in the House of the Undying. Mance Rayder gathering the largest army the world has ever seen. Jon Snow watching Ygritte die. Stannis forsaking pursuing the Throne to aid the Night's Watch. Stannis leading his army North to take Winterfell. Mance Rayder choosing to be burned alive. Bran going North of the Wall. Jojen sacrificing himself for Bran. Bran becoming the 3ER. Hodor Holding the Door. Jon giving The Gift to the Wildlings. Jon harboring Alys Karstark. Jon Snow choosing to fight Ramsay Snow. Jon Snow dying and being resurrected. Berric Dondarrion being resurrected a dozen or so times. Daenerys Targaryen choosing to turn her army North instead of South to claim her rights by all the laws of Gods and Men. Jon Snow giving up his title as King of the North to gain Daenerys as an ally.

ALL OF THAT, PLUS MORE, that was all for NOTHING. These people were all idiots. They should have listened to Cercei and the skeptics this whole time, for if they had done nothing, they would all be better off. The only exception perhaps being Mance Rayder, but if he had known the WW's were so easy a threat to be dismayed by a dragonglass/dragonsteel dagger to the heart of their leader, perhaps he would not have chosen to lead his army South.

The truth is that had everyone done nothing, the WW's would not have been able to breach the Wall. The Wall protected against the WW's crossing over for thousands of years, and as Benjen Stark noted, its magic protects undead from crossing over. It was only through the stupid act of doing something, of actually taking the threat serious, that allowed the NK to claim one of Dany's dragons and use it to knock down The Wall. But, if everyone had just sat down and done nothing, nobody would have needed to die. The World would have been safe. Cercei was right.



And now we get to the crux of the antithetical nature of this resolution. Martin has compared the WW threat as being akin to Climate Change. But, according to this last episode, climate change skeptics are all right. Climate Change isn't that big of deal. We don't need the whole world working together to solve this issue. In fact, you just need a small band of dedicated individuals, including a savant child. They will sacrifice everything and solve the issue. Meanwhile, you can sit back and race your Hummers down the highway all you want, guzzle down gallons of gas, pump more and more toxins into the sky to produce ever more junk, throw your plastic trash into the sea, and deregulate the entire environmental protection laws and agencies. You were a fucking idiot to believe you had to sacrifice anything to make the world a better place, all it ever took was a sacrifice from a few individuals whom you've never heard of and will likely never hear of. They solved everything while you sat back and relaxed, unaware there was even a problem in the first place. And with climate change forever solved, they too can get back to squabbling over taxes and pieces of imaginary lines on a map.

Hoooray, did we subvert your expectations?

This isn't about Arya jumping the Night King from behind, it's the underlying message behind it all. Nothing that we saw in the past seven seasons meant anything, all of those sacrifices and pains were for naught. The WW's were not some end of the world threat that required everyone in the world to pay attention and work together to solve. They were a minor inconvenience that affected only the North and were defeated without ever leaving the North.

I could keep going since idiots keep thinking that the book prophecies are actually all dumb and meaningless. News flash, they aren't. But, that's a whole separate topic and veers too hard into the books. What I've just laid out is the real reason people hate the episode. And, we haven't even gotten into the actual nitpicky nonsense regarding the actual battle of the episode. Artillery in the front lines. Cavalry charging in the dark into the front lines of the enemy instead of waiting on the flanks. No hot oil to repel climbing invaders. A comically small moat of fire. No proper barricades of the main entrance. No one realizing that a dude that can raise the dead can actually raise the dead and thus sticking everyone in the crypts is a bad idea. Just LOL.

But, but Mr. BossAttack , this series is called Game of Thrones, it's actually always been about the politics. Fuck you and STFU. No, it's not. The show hasn't been about "complex politics" since it ran out of books to adapt. It's why every political character turned into a DUNCE with an extra big D on their hat the moment they left Kings Landing. Varys, Tyrion, Littlefinger, all of them turned into slack jawed yokels that couldn't rub to pennies together in their heads once the books dried up. Even worse, they made decisions that flew in the face of all political acumen and logic in the world. Littlefinger openly gives Sansa to Roose Bolton. Sansa! A declared traitor to the Crown that Cercei has demanded the head of, LF gives her up openly despite owing all his lands and titles to the Crown which they can easily snatch from him. He does this to gain…oh that's right to gain fuck all because it was all a contrivance to have Sansa raped for shock value.

Now that the NK is gone you expect me to get invested back in the politics of the world when the politics haven't made sense for five seasons? How can I get invested with Cercei as the main villain? Cercei makes no sense. I can't invest myself in an enemy that adheres to no logic. How does Cercei have any allies or power? She blew up the holiest site in Westeros along with the Pope and all the great Nobles Houses are like, "okay, cool." And, all the superstitious peasant folk that incited a small uprising that ousted the previous Pope and installed a People's Pope are equally just okay with what Cercei did. Cercei also has gold and resources to back her that just spring from nowhere. The Iron Bank are also keen to back her. Why? At least if this was the books we could justify it by saying that the Iron Bank despises the return of dragons. But the show never set this up, so it's irrelevant. Why should the Iron Bank back a crazy lady when Daenerys seems a more stable ruler and under her father's reign the Crown's coffers were overflowing and the Crown's debts were being paid on time?

Tell me again, how do I invest in such a comical enemy when nothing about her makes sense? The NK was at least nice because you didn't have to think, he was just pure evil. He didn't speak and he had one goal, kill everything. You didn't have to think about the dumb politics or logistics. It was an enemy made for D&D (hell, one they made up) and now he's gone. Now, we have to go back to an enemy you do have to think about and who makes no sense.



Do you understand the problem?

THANK YOU

people actually defending the storytelling are just making themselves look foolish
you like your favourite characters doing cool things stop lying to yourselves
 

Deleted member 34385

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LOL
Ok so from now on everything is simple right?! they just need to send arya to sneak attack cersi and kill her. If she did it to NK its should be easier for her to do it to cersi right? the whole thing is just so lame and childish. Just go and watch the first 4 season again and you will find a lot of difference between an expert writing (first 4 season) and lets just finish it the most stupid way possible.
this would be so great. just like fuck up the whole show for shits and giggles ( i am joking of course)
 

Deleted member 34385

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THANK YOU

people actually defending the storytelling are just making themselves look foolish
you like your favourite characters doing cool things stop lying to yourselves
EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE ALL SAAYIINNGG. its just cool, rewarding and fun to watch, nothing wrong with that. why are being attacked for not having expectations of pure entertainment?
 

ShapeDePapa

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Oct 25, 2017
3,936
The thing is they hyped NK from the beginning of series and give him so many super powers like bring back the dead, resisting fire breath of dragon, having thousand and thousands of zombies as army and so on and the first time he attacked he got fucked and died. This is so lame. I don't care about who killed him the fact that he died so easily is just so meh to me.

The NK is like the Death Star that gets destroyed at the end of Episode 4.
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,728
why are you calling it disgusting? the truth is, nobody really (general audience) cares about all that. some people here are heated up, but the fact remains, the world enjoyed this episode, everyone i know mssged me saying it was the best thing they saw in television history...so...no its not disgusting.


What's the point of dismissing discussion like this? And why should anyone wanting to discuss flaws or complain should care that "the general audience LOVED it!"

It just doesn't matter on a discussion forum. Most people watching are probably not nearly as invested in the show as a lot of the people that voice their issues. Furthermore, it's not like Battle of Bastards or Hardhome that just got rated 10/10 everywhere. The Long Night is actually the lowest rated battle episode on imdb, despite being by far the biggest one they've done yet. And it's the 2nd lowest rated episode by critics according to RT, only lower is the mid-s5 episode with the sand snakes fight against Jaime and Bronn.
 

takriel

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EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE ALL SAAYIINNGG. its just cool, rewarding and fun to watch, nothing wrong with that. why are being attacked for not having expectations of pure entertainment?
Frankly, because pure entertainment is mindless and many prefer not having their intelligence insulted.
 

Addi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,226
I actually thought the living would hold off the army of the dead for a longer time (having dragonglass, sort of knowing what to expect etc.), but looking back it's obvious that the battle is written that way to make Arya the only one to be able to beat the Night King. When the NK and his crew surrounds the tree, Arya is the only one who can sneak through (believable or not, it's established that she has that sort of skills). To have a Jon 1v1, the NK would need to be there alone, maybe waking up a few dead Iron borns that Jon could take on, but not having the entire army inside of Winterfell. Choosing Arya made it possible for them to have the dead completely overrun Winterfell and make the situation seem the most desperate.

Then there is a directoral choice in how to portray the kill. They could have shown Arya sneaking past the circle of undead, create tension with that, but they chose to go with desparation and hopelessness focusing on Jon and the rest instead to get the biggest emotional response (most of us still thought Jon would be the one to get the kill, so it's understandable that they did that). I don't buy the argument of a cheap ending when the entire battle is written with that outcome in mind (talking about the episode, not the bigger context of the show).

I understand the sentiment of the WW plot ending too early/abruptly, but that's not on the episode itself, the story should had gone in a different direction last season to have a different outcome. Also, as soon as they established that they only needed to kill the NK, of course it would end in a "that's it?". It's established that the NK wants the 3ER for himself. He kills him, then it's lost. Not just because he got to Bran, but also because then he can just go back to chill on his dragon while the dead takes over the rest of Westeros.

I mean, the episode has some issues (the Dothraki aimlessly running into their death), but hot trash it is not.
 
Last edited:

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What's the point of dismissing discussion like this? And why should anyone wanting to discuss flaws or complain should care that "the general audience LOVED it!"

It just doesn't matter on a discussion forum. Most people watching are probably not nearly as invested in the show as a lot of the people that voice their issues. Furthermore, it's not like Battle of Bastards or Hardhome that just got rated 10/10 everywhere. The Long Night is actually the lowest rated battle episode on imdb, despite being by far the biggest one they've done yet. And it's the 2nd lowest rated episode by critics according to RT, only lower is the mid-s5 episode with the sand snakes fight against Jaime and Bronn.
i am not saying you should dismiss it, feel free to say i am wrong, i fully accept opinions, i just pointed out that the general viewer does not care. nowhere did i insult anyone or call their opinions disgusting, i just did not agree, but that did not turn their opinions into shit or bad or disgusting or brought up the need to call people idiots like some have here. that was what i was trying to say. with not caring, i did not mean that what he was saying was not important, and yes, i fully understand the investment of the core fans and expectations, my point was that the show is no longer just catering them and they have to keep in mind of the dangers of their favorite show going major. this has happens to everything ive loved and enjoyed in the past and again it happens to GOT. i just feel like we are sometimes being to emotionally attached, and i think that is also what makes us as a community so special, because we can understand each other even if our opinions do not align.
 

Deleted member 34385

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 26, 2017
459
Frankly, because pure entertainment is mindless and many prefer not having their intelligence insulted.
this can be debated and there are two ways of looking at this. this would also immediate mean that a movie like Mad Max was a failure because it was pure entertainment. so i do not see eye to eye with you on this. I do think that if the books where finished and if the result of the series was different, then yes, i would completely be on your team, but the story eventually took its own course and things changed, i do not feel like it damaged the tv show in anyway.
 

Neudd

Member
Oct 31, 2017
81
I would love to know what GRRM thought about this episode. Silence...

I'm not sure if he even watches the show anymore. There was an interview after season 7 where he mentioned that he hadn't watched it yet because of how busy he was with travelling and writing TWoW (lol). And then more recently in March there's this from EW:

The showrunners note that they're not entirely sure of Martin's future storylines anyway ("George discovers a lot of stuff while he's writing," Benioff says). But more surprising is that Martin is likewise somewhat in the dark on the show's ending. "I haven't read the [final-season] scripts and haven't been able to visit the set because I've been working on Winds," Martin reveals. "I know some of the things. But there's a lot of minor-character [arcs] they'll be coming up with on their own. And, of course, they passed me several years ago. There may be important discrepancies."

So I don't know if he's watched it yet. I do wonder if he's avoiding the show post books so that it doesn't influence him in any way.
 

hendersonhank

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,390
She never sleeps or eats either. How is she still alive???

Oh good point. We should just assume that someone, somewhere, in those few years, magically trained her to be a better fighter than people twice her size, who have been training and fighting for their lives for 3-4x longer than she's been alive. We don't know who, or when, or how, because it was never shown, but we should just assume that it happened offscreen. Because Arya being taught to be the ultimate fighter is not something there would be any reason to show, right? Better to surprise the audience and leave them guessing as to how it happened!

No, teaching her to put men down quickly was the training he gave her. Syrio gave her the basics, the hound taught her the realities, the faceless made her an assassin. What more does she need? Maybe a push it to the limit training montage?

So what puts her on Brienne's level in single combat? Would Brienne have less trouble if the Hound had given her the indispensable lesson that "armor and a big fucking sword" wins fights? Oh wait Brienne actually has those things herself. Maybe she needed Syrio to say "hold the sword like this"?

"What more does she need" for it to be plausible that she is any kind of competent fighter? She needs to have trained. Not a handful of lessons as an 8 year old -- which obviously didn't do much because she was certainly no great fighter thereafter. Not get laughed at and kicked in the mud by a knight. Not mop floors and learn to poison people and forget who she is, while never touching a sword.

And NOTHING would make it plausible that she's as good as she is shown to be, as good as Brienne, wading through wights with backflips and cartwheels.
 
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E.T.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,035
I love how quickly the night King reacted and caught arya and then held her up with one hand yet was too slow to react to the knife drop.

Why was he not armored?
 

Eidan

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,560
No, because there's a difference between the destination and the journey.

While the final ending might be similar, there is no indication at all that the journey to that ending is the same. I mean, it literally can't. Some people GRRM has already said are vital to his vision of the ending are already dead in the show or were never introduced and some characters that are clearly vital to the show's ending are already dead in the books.

Most people are expecting the threat of The Others to be dealt with in some way, but it won't happen like this. Hell, it can't even happen like this because The Others/WW in the books don't have an instant killswitch that kills the entire army in one go. Plus GRRM has said multiple times over that The Others are the real threat in the books and it fits perfectly with the themes and allegories in the books.
I guess I'm just not convinced. Yes, the journeys will be different, but the broad strokes will likely be the same. Jon and Dany hook up. The Wall falls. And I consider having the White Walker threat end before it ever reaches the south to be one. I think this allegory to climate change argument is a good way for book faithful to cling to hope that the White Walkers will devastate all of Westeros, but I'm not convinced.
 

Addi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,226
Oh good point. We should just assume that someone, somewhere, in those few years, magically trained her to be a better fighter than people twice her size, who have been training and fighting for their lives for 3-4x longer than she's been alive. We don't know who, or when, or how, because it was never shown, but we should just assume that it happened offscreen. Because Arya being taught to be the ultimate fighter is not something there would be any reason to show, right? Better to surprise the audience and leave them guessing!

She's not the ultimate fighter, that's the point. She get's overwhelmed by the wights when she goes against them head on and she switches her strategy to being stealthy.
 

Braaier

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
13,237
I don't envy D&D.

The writer of the books can't do anything in good time so having to bring this all to a close because it's a TV show with actual living, breathing, aging people working on it to deadlines was always going to suck.
Because they have mediocre writers. Why can't they hire writers the same caliber as GRRM?
 
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