Game of Thrones S8 |OT2| Please do not post spoilers here - assume all episodes have been leaked - spoiler tag all future episode speculation

[The Artisan]

I don't buy this. I rewatched all the previous NK scenes. He's a mindless, slow, straight walking, white walker. He fucked up getting Bran a couple times beyond the wall for this very reason. I mean the fact he was never able to get the 3ER for hundreds/thousands of years until Bran accidentally got marked by him....

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How does that make him "mindless"? He's motivated and intelligent. He knows what he's doing.

 

[Window]

Can I just say this whole thing speaks to the difficulty of criticising longform television, specifically longform television that refuses to wrap up any kind of character or story arcs throughout the show and instead chooses to continually build and build until the end of the series.

As I felt the life of this show get slowly sucked out in mid to late Season 5, some four years ago now, where it appeared as though character direction was going wildly off-base, I found it difficult to consider, articulate and ultimately convince others that this wasn't good. After all, it's not very fair to criticise a story when it's only half over. And so the usual response would be "Why don't you wait and find out..." "You'll find out next year." "They've got big plans for that. You'll see." And so I've kept watching, not necessarily because I expected it to get better, but because I want to see this through so I can articulate my thoughts in a fuller and fairer way.

Besides the fact that seems like a gargantuan waste of time and a frustrating experience, it also hasn't really rewarded the fruits I was hoping anyway. Because now the response is "You're just a hater. I don't even know why you're still watching this if you're not enjoying it." And, often times I can't even argue with that.

What I'm saying is that with the constant delay of any kind of closure to any of your story plots/character arcs, it's nigh impossible to ever really confirm whether something is being written poorly or not. Was this scene superfluous, superficial and pandering or was it a subtle setup for something that'll be paid off in two years time? Will these characters eventually get the extremely satisfying conclusions we're all hoping for but I just have to be patient?

This is one of the reasons why it's so important to fucking wrap some things up at the end of your seasons. You don't have to close everything off, but please give some closure to something, to some characters, to some plots. But for the love of God, don't spend the final episode of your season setting up next year - that's about the worst, most obnoxious, disingenuous thing you can do as a showrunner. Instead of using that precious hour to crucially conclude what's come before, you're using it as a glorified commercial for the following year.

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Yeah this so true. I think this episode, looking at it stand alone was fine and seems like the logical conclusion to the WW storyline. What needs to be criticized are the past episodes' story direction which lead to the show here. I don't think any of the suggestions on stretching out the WW threat beyond Winterfell or this episode would logically work but that's because this conclusion has been locked in due to the story leading to it.

On a related note - I think GoT and now so many Netflix shows in their attempt to be cinematic and essentially long form films miss the art of crafting episodic storytelling which when connected together tell a longform overarching story, by creating stories within stories. It's what previous HBO shows did well and were lauded for. Episodes from some of the past seasons have been criticised for just being a collection of scenes of unrelated storylines, cutting back and forth and that's because of this lack of episode specific storytelling, theme and structure.

 

[Ocarina_117]

As much as nerds rage very loudly. The average on IMDB for Episode 3 is a 9.0 after 93,367 votes.

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It's also the second worst reviewed episode of the entire series.

But yes, just us nerds.

Edit - the episode was also rated as a 10 with 1000s of votes before the episode even aired.

 

[Hydrus]

Spoiler: Episode 4 Preview Stuff

The preview shows a bunch of Unsullied marching, what's presumably a sizeable group of soldiers at the funeral scene, and even a few Wildlings. There's also enough important Northerners left to fill the Winterfell Great Hall with people.


Whilst Dany's army is definitely going to be weakened it's not going to be decimated because, well, they wouldn't be able to have a big cool battle at the end if it was.

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Dorne is gonna join the battle. Book it!

 

[subcutaneousphat]

Just to add a quick end to everything, I don't really like offering alternative ending since people will say, "you're just upset you didn't get your fan fiction ending." But, despite better judgment, I'm going to do it anyway. This is just a quick example of how the conflict could have gone down better and reinforced the themes of the show.

How about instead of the conflict resolving itself at Winterfell they did the twist everyone expected, that the NK was never at Winterfell and the whole attack was a diversion as he led the bulk of his force South. The Battle at Winterfell would end, perhaps with even a WW General being stabbed and the army all disintegrating. It's then they realize that that WW wasn't the NK but just another General. Then we start the next episode and learn that the Army of Dead has completely swept South and every hold and reach in the land is fighting for their life. In fact, most of the major areas have been completely overtaken with only Cercei in King's Landing able to barricade herself in thanks to Qyburn's nasty knowledge of the dead and arcane. And, it's there we learn the NK is focusing his efforts, he wants to take KL for some reason.

With that knowledge, you could start the next episode with everyone bickering about whether to march South and liberate King's Landing and thus save Cercei. You'd have Sansa and other Northern Lords arguing that they should bunker down and do nothing for the time being, after all the North is safe; they've won their battle. Why not let Cercei deplete her resources fighting the NK? Maybe she'll get lucky or at the very least prove a distraction to give time for the North and Vale to recuperate. Then you'd have characters like Jon arguing that they have a duty to save the realm. And, Dany would be torn in the middle, on one hand selfishly wanting Cercei's army to be destroyed so she can easily claim the Throne, on the other her duty to the realm. And, perhaps she remembers her vision in the House of the Undying that pushes her to side with Jon.

In this version, the "final" conflict with the WW's comes down to a battle for King's Landing in which our heroes have to help save the villain of the series, Cercei. You can even have it end the same way with Arya getting the final blow on the NK. But, at least here it's a conflict across the whole continent. You don't even need to show every kingdom being assaulted just mention off hand that the Army of Dead is attacking all over from the Reach to Dorne to Casterly Rock.

Just an idea.

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Isn't the problem with that the whole exponential increase of the armies of the dead the more of Westeros is decimated? As unearned as the eventual death of the NK may have seen in this particular context, how on earth would they get themselves out of that particular corner if the entire landmass was pretty much just wall to wall wights by that point? How would they even get to him?

 

[MisterR]

Let me just once and for all explain why people are upset. And, Morrigan can back me up if she thinks I'm hitting the mark. This is going to be my grand, end all be all, post on the subject so strap the fuck in. In this laborious post, I will be using examples from both the books and the show. This is to prove how it fails on both levels. And, to understand the extent to which the show failed to adhere to the point of the series/text. Accordingly, to avoid confusion, I'll be placing book reference in italicizes while show references will remain in regular text. Let's go:


The show might be called Game of Thrones, but the novels are part of a series titled A Song of Ice and Fire. The series is not about the Iron Throne, the Throne is not important. That is at least what Martin seems to be building towards. All of these petty lords and humans squabbling over a piece of iron while a true world ending threat is just outside their door step. This is why he has compared the WW threat to climate change. The world is about to be drowned in rising sea levels, but Republicans will still argue over taxes and regulations. The show and the books literally both start with the introduction of the White Walkers/The Others. It's what the series has always been about.

We're told that long ago the White Walkers came and heralded in a Long Night that lasted a generation all across the world. Kings and Queens froze to death in their castles the same as lowly peasants in their hovels. And, whole people were born, lived, and died in the dark night, never seeing the sun. See (Old Nan Tale S1). It was at some point during these times that a Hero arose that fought back the Darkness. He/She rallied the forces of the world fighting against the WW's with a flaming sword called Lightbringer. This legendary figure's name is different in each culture/part of the world: Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon the Hero, Eldric Shadowchaser, The Last Hero, or The Prince that Was Promised. But all agree that they turned the tide in the conflict and ultimately won back the Day.

However, the threat was not outright defeated as the forces of the world clearly believed the forces of the Night would return again someday. Thus, in the West, the Wall was constructed and the Night's Watch was formed to "Guard the Realms of Men." In the east, the Five Forts of Yi Ti were constructed. And, it is there in the East that the religion of R'hllor, the Red God, birthed, spread, and prophesied that the Long Night would come again and usher in a New War for the Dawn and that Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised would be reborn to lead humanity to victory against this conflict.

Why am I mentioning all of this? Who cares? Well, it's because for SEVEN SEASONS (and five books) we have been primed and prepared for the coming of the Long Night again. We've been told again and again that, "WINTER IS COMING." We've been told that nothing else matters, that this squabbling over the Thorne is meaningless and is blinding everyone from the true threat in the North. The last time the White Walkers came, the forces of Men at least had the Children of the Forest and their magic on their side. But, over the years, magic has faded from the world and the memories of men are fleeting. The Night's Watch has been reduced to an "army of undisciplined boys and tired old men" with less than "a thousand" left, so few The Watch can only man three castles across The Wall. See (Maester Aemon, S1E03). And, no one in the realm believes the White Walkers were even real to begin with but instead just another fairytale next to the tales of Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder during the Age of Heroes. See (Maester Luwin S1). The stage is set for humanity to be hit with a rude awakening once Winter Comes as they are totally unprepared and unwilling to get prepared.

Now, let's fast forward to last Sunday's episode, the White Walker threat was completely eradicated in their first major confrontation/battle with the forces of Men. And, the Night King turned into little shards of ice after being jumped from behind. This great battle was waged by the battered remaining remnants of the Northern Houses who managed to survive two back-to-back civil wars; reinforcements from the Vale; and the surviving members of Daenerys Targaryen's Essos army who (much like the Northerners) were also diminished time and again by perpetual warfare and conquest. No army South of the Neck joined the Battle. No River Lords, a half a dozen Iron Islanders, no Stormlanders, no one in the Marches, no one from the West (besides a one-armed Knight), no one from the South in either Dorne or the Arbor, no Sword of the Morning, no one from the Reach (besides a fat failed Maester), no one from any of the Free Cities of Essos, no group of Faceless Men, no contingent of Red Priests and/or Shadowbinders from Asshai or Volantis, no gang of Braavosi water dancers, not a single free company from Lys, Tyrosh, or Myr; NOTHING.

No one South of the Neck has even seen a White Walker, nor will they ever see one at this point. No one South of the Neck had to risk anything, sacrifice anything, or suffer any consequences for ignoring the threat to the North. The Reach is an area of bountiful harvests, bursting with food. They will never know hunger or starvation or the effects of a hundred year long dark winter. They will only know Arbor Gold wine and fat stacks of bread. They contributed NOTHING to the eventual conflict that threatened the world and gained EVERYTHING.

And so now we cut to the especially hard truth of the matter, nothing mattered. Every sacrifice was pointless and worthless. Benjen Stark ranging North of the Wall. Old Bear Mormont leading the majority of the Night's Watch North of the Wall. The FiSt of the First Men. Qhorin Half-Hand sacrificing himself to Jon Snow so word could reach back to the Watch. Stannis accepting the burden. Stannis forsaking the faith of the land and accepting the spread of R'hllor/the Red God. Stannis killing his brother through shadowbinding. Stannis and Melisandre sacrificing folk to the flames. Daenerys Targaryen losing her unborn child. Daenerys Targaryen birthing dragons back into the world. Daenerys enduring the Red Wastes. Daenerys visions in the House of the Undying. Mance Rayder gathering the largest army the world has ever seen. Jon Snow watching Ygritte die. Stannis forsaking pursuing the Throne to aid the Night's Watch. Stannis leading his army North to take Winterfell. Mance Rayder choosing to be burned alive. Bran going North of the Wall. Jojen sacrificing himself for Bran. Bran becoming the 3ER. Hodor Holding the Door. Jon giving The Gift to the Wildlings. Jon harboring Alys Karstark. Jon Snow choosing to fight Ramsay Snow. Jon Snow dying and being resurrected. Berric Dondarrion being resurrected a dozen or so times. Daenerys Targaryen choosing to turn her army North instead of South to claim her rights by all the laws of Gods and Men. Jon Snow giving up his title as King of the North to gain Daenerys as an ally.

ALL OF THAT, PLUS MORE, that was all for NOTHING. These people were all idiots. They should have listened to Cercei and the skeptics this whole time, for if they had done nothing, they would all be better off. The only exception perhaps being Mance Rayder, but if he had known the WW's were so easy a threat to be dismayed by a dragonglass/dragonsteel dagger to the heart of their leader, perhaps he would not have chosen to lead his army South.

The truth is that had everyone done nothing, the WW's would not have been able to breach the Wall. The Wall protected against the WW's crossing over for thousands of years, and as Benjen Stark noted, its magic protects undead from crossing over. It was only through the stupid act of doing something, of actually taking the threat serious, that allowed the NK to claim one of Dany's dragons and use it to knock down The Wall. But, if everyone had just sat down and done nothing, nobody would have needed to die. The World would have been safe. Cercei was right.



And now we get to the crux of the antithetical nature of this resolution. Martin has compared the WW threat as being akin to Climate Change. But, according to this last episode, climate change skeptics are all right. Climate Change isn't that big of deal. We don't need the whole world working together to solve this issue. In fact, you just need a small band of dedicated individuals, including a savant child. They will sacrifice everything and solve the issue. Meanwhile, you can sit back and race your Hummers down the highway all you want, guzzle down gallons of gas, pump more and more toxins into the sky to produce ever more junk, throw your plastic trash into the sea, and deregulate the entire environmental protection laws and agencies. You were a fucking idiot to believe you had to sacrifice anything to make the world a better place, all it ever took was a sacrifice from a few individuals whom you've never heard of and will likely never hear of. They solved everything while you sat back and relaxed, unaware there was even a problem in the first place. And with climate change forever solved, they too can get back to squabbling over taxes and pieces of imaginary lines on a map.

Hoooray, did we subvert your expectations?

This isn't about Arya jumping the Night King from behind, it's the underlying message behind it all. Nothing that we saw in the past seven seasons meant anything, all of those sacrifices and pains were for naught. The WW's were not some end of the world threat that required everyone in the world to pay attention and work together to solve. They were a minor inconvenience that affected only the North and were defeated without ever leaving the North.

I could keep going since idiots keep thinking that the book prophecies are actually all dumb and meaningless. News flash, they aren't. But, that's a whole separate topic and veers too hard into the books. What I've just laid out is the real reason people hate the episode. And, we haven't even gotten into the actual nitpicky nonsense regarding the actual battle of the episode. Artillery in the front lines. Cavalry charging in the dark into the front lines of the enemy instead of waiting on the flanks. No hot oil to repel climbing invaders. A comically small moat of fire. No proper barricades of the main entrance. No one realizing that a dude that can raise the dead can actually raise the dead and thus sticking everyone in the crypts is a bad idea. Just LOL.

But, but Mr. BossAttack , this series is called Game of Thrones, it's actually always been about the politics. Fuck you and STFU. No, it's not. The show hasn't been about "complex politics" since it ran out of books to adapt. It's why every political character turned into a DUNCE with an extra big D on their hat the moment they left Kings Landing. Varys, Tyrion, Littlefinger, all of them turned into slack jawed yokels that couldn't rub to pennies together in their heads once the books dried up. Even worse, they made decisions that flew in the face of all political acumen and logic in the world. Littlefinger openly gives Sansa to Roose Bolton. Sansa! A declared traitor to the Crown that Cercei has demanded the head of, LF gives her up openly despite owing all his lands and titles to the Crown which they can easily snatch from him. He does this to gain…oh that's right to gain fuck all because it was all a contrivance to have Sansa raped for shock value.

Now that the NK is gone you expect me to get invested back in the politics of the world when the politics haven't made sense for five seasons? How can I get invested with Cercei as the main villain? Cercei makes no sense. I can't invest myself in an enemy that adheres to no logic. How does Cercei have any allies or power? She blew up the holiest site in Westeros along with the Pope and all the great Nobles Houses are like, "okay, cool." And, all the superstitious peasant folk that incited a small uprising that ousted the previous Pope and installed a People's Pope are equally just okay with what Cercei did. Cercei also has gold and resources to back her that just spring from nowhere. The Iron Bank are also keen to back her. Why? At least if this was the books we could justify it by saying that the Iron Bank despises the return of dragons. But the show never set this up, so it's irrelevant. Why should the Iron Bank back a crazy lady when Daenerys seems a more stable ruler and under her father's reign the Crown's coffers were overflowing and the Crown's debts were being paid on time?

Tell me again, how do I invest in such a comical enemy when nothing about her makes sense? The NK was at least nice because you didn't have to think, he was just pure evil. He didn't speak and he had one goal, kill everything. You didn't have to think about the dumb politics or logistics. It was an enemy made for D&D (hell, one they made up) and now he's gone. Now, we have to go back to an enemy you do have to think about and who makes no sense.



Do you understand the problem?

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Thank you for this excellent post. If all you care about is the spectacle of GOT, then I'm sure this episode was fantastic for you. This explains why the rest of us found it severely lacking.

 

[Deleted member 5028]

Dorne is gonna join the battle. Book it!

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And the Iron fleet that's not with Euron

 

[ParanormalFupa]

How does that make him "mindless"? He's motivated and intelligent. He knows what he's doing.

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Mindless in the same way birds are mindless about their migration directions. It's just some magnetic pull instinct not true mindful planning. He literally got fooled by Bran going out a back door.

 

[Budi]

It's also the second worst reviewed episode of the entire series.

But yes, just us nerds.

Edit - the episode was also rated as a 10 with 1000s of votes before the episode even aired.

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How would you rate it? On scale from 1 to 10.

 

[The Artisan]

Mindless in the same way birds are mindless about their migration directions. It's just some magnetic pull instinct not true mindful planning. He literally got fooled by Bran going out a back door.

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So not literally mindless, but just poor planning on his part. He got outsmarted, so did a whole bunch of human characters on the show in every single season.

 

[rashbeep]

I wonder if we'll ever get a reaction from Varys to Jon being Aegon Targaryen.
After all he and Illyrio put Danys Rise to power on motion for the greater good of the realm.
I wonder what he thinks about Aegon. I wonder if he might even act, that would be very interesting.

But we'll probably get 2 more Eunuch jokes and then he dies.

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I don't even think the writers remember who illyrio is at this point

 

[Scar]

And the Iron fleet that's not with Euron

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And house Reed wherever they are.

 

[Dream Machine]

Meera and her dad might show up if there's still 3ER stuff and they go to the Isle of Faces with Bran. Otherwise no. Why would they?

 

[Heshinsi]

It's disappointing that there hasn't been one single conversation between them two. Varys could've been like "I knew your father. I was there when he died. I tried to save him and he couldn't. By the way, one of the last thing he said was he would take no part in killing the pregnant Daenerys Targaryen."

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Bran: The Lion and the Wolf will soon be at each other's throats.

 

[Voytek]

I don't buy this. I rewatched all the previous NK scenes. He's a mindless, slow, straight walking, white walker. He fucked up getting Bran a couple times beyond the wall for this very reason. I mean the fact he was never able to get the 3ER for hundreds/thousands of years until Bran accidentally got marked by him....

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A shitty leader maybe but he's clearly not mindless. The dude even gives Dany a cocky smirk after dragon fire failed to kill him, that's not something a mindless being would do.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Watchers on the Wall 9.6

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9.6!? I think Watchers on the Wall is my least favorite episode. It just goes on and on and on and on.

 

[Heshinsi]

How does that make him "mindless"? He's motivated and intelligent. He knows what he's doing.

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When I press the combinations on my coffee machine and it spits out the perfect latte, I'm not going to sit back in amazement and exclaim how intelligent it is. The NK was a weapon designed to kill humans. That's all he is. He's running the program he was designed for. Nothing intelligent about that.

 

[Zen]

That's the only hope of beating our own NK though.

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Unfortunately, our own NK will also likely completely steamroll us, and we have no savior. It would be equivalent to everyone on Earth having to stab the proverbial NK with valyrian steel or dragon Glass daggers.

 

[SofNascimento]

As much as nerds rage very loudly. The average on IMDB for Episode 3 is a 9.0 after 93,367 votes.

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From the comments I've been reading I would have expected a much lower score, even if just because a lot of trolls would give it terrible grades. The level of comments I've been reading remind me of ME3's ending. When people felt their whole connection with the story had been severed. I hope the next three episodes can change that.

 

[astro]

When I press the combinations on my coffee machine and it spits out the perfect latte, I'm not going to sit back in amazement and exclaim how intelligent it is. The NK was a weapon designed to kill humans. That's all he is. He's running the program he was designed for. Nothing intelligent about that.

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He smiled when the dragonfire didn't kill him, he constantly showboated. He's not mindless.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Now that Dany has lost her entire army, it really feels like we just wasted time in Essos. Dany neither learned how to rule nor learned to emphasize her Targaryen nature, so she was just spinning her wheels for a few seasons. Very unsatisfying.

 

[subcutaneousphat]

We can all agree the next episode needs more awkward sex scenes

Where's our Bronn with another lazy foursome?

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As long as it involved Podrick I'm down with that.

Never mind all the unanswered questions about the NK, the real burning question is how is Podrick so good at sex that prostitutes refuse payment.

 

[Heshinsi]

He smiled when the dragonfire didn't kill him, he constantly showboated. He's not mindless.

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That could have just been part of the suite the Children of the Forest programmed him with. I mean after all they gave him the ability to turn babies into WWs, raise the dead, a throwing arm that can throw javelins like a missile launcher, fire immunity, the ability to physically touch someone browsing the tree internet, etc. Smirking at his human enemies while they face their demise just seems like something the Children of the Forest put in because they're assholes.

 

[Zen]

Now that Dany has lost her entire army, it really feels like we just wasted time in Essos. Dany neither learned how to rule nor learned to emphasize her Targaryen nature, so she was just spinning her wheels for a few seasons. Very unsatisfying.

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She learned how to rule, as a dictator. She operates under righteous motives, but that is very much her perspective and not necessarily building towards a protagonist role if left unchecked.

 

[astro]

That could have just been part of the suite the Children of the Forest programmed him with. I mean after all they gave him the ability to turn babies into WWs, raise the dead, a throwing arm that can throw javelins like a missile launcher, fire immunity, the ability to physically touch someone browsing the tree internet, etc. Smirking at his human enemies while they face their demise just seems like some the Children of the Forest would put in because they're assholes.

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Na, that's taking it too far lol.

"They programmed him to showboat"

Sorry, the greater likelihood is that he's not mindless.

 

[The Artisan]

Bran: The Lion and the Wolf will soon be at each other's throats.

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Bran said that?

When I press the combinations on my coffee machine and it spits out the perfect latte, I'm not going to sit back in amazement and exclaim how intelligent it is. The NK was a weapon designed to kill humans. That's all he is. He's running the program he was designed for. Nothing intelligent about that.

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Yeah but the coffee machine is not gonna try to fight back if it decides to one day do more than just make coffee.

 

[Deleted member 2809]

Now that Dany has lost her entire army, it really feels like we just wasted time in Essos. Dany neither learned how to rule nor learned to emphasize her Targaryen nature, so she was just spinning her wheels for a few seasons. Very unsatisfying.

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Just send ravens to meereen, qarth, yunkai, astapor
"sup losers, thanks for the army lol, btw they're all dead, hope we never see you again"

 

[Heshinsi]

Bran said that?

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No lol. It's just that like LF, Varys is a lying, manipulative piece of shit. So going off of your scenario where he attempts to talk to Jon about Ned and how he knew him and what not. Bran should realistically LF him on the spot by mentioning that line. Then a lightbulb should go on in Arya's head and she yells, "you!"

 

[Morrigan]

I really can't remember the last time a character like this came along on television.

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https://www.resetera.com/posts/20362463

 

[AstronaughtE]

Just send ravens to meereen, qarth, yunkai, astapor
"sup losers, thanks for the army lol, btw they're all dead, hope we never see you again"

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Open on a raven screeching in Mereen. Pan down to letter on its leg. Darrio rushes and grabs it. "Dany?!" He exclaims, as he hurriedly unfurls the tiny note. Zoom in on the words "You Up? Need more men. -D"

 

[Voytek]

That could have just been part of the suite the Children of the Forest programmed him with. I mean after all they gave him the ability to turn babies into WWs, raise the dead, a throwing arm that can throw javelins like a missile launcher, fire immunity, the ability to physically touch someone browsing the tree internet, etc. Smirking at his human enemies while they face their demise just seems like something the Children of the Forest put in because they're assholes.

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So in other words nanomachines? I mean if you are going with "well the children could have programmed that!" you could explain away anything you want with that.

 

[Zen]

I would have liked it if WWs and the wights weren't all tied to the NK but they got scattered and fled after NK and his tethered forces die. They would be implied to return some time in a distant future with a new leader of the Others.

 

[Gigglepoo]

She learned how to rule, as a dictator. She operates under righteous motives, but that is very much her perspective and not necessarily building towards a protagonist role if left unchecked.

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I don't understand. How did her ruling style change and what caused the change? I don't see much difference from her now and then. She's always ruled with compassion but had a fiery temper. Her trying to appease everyone in Meereen (and failing) even mirrors her trying to kindly take over the Seven Kingdoms (and failing) instead of unleashing holy hell on Cercei.

 

[Maneil99]

I would have liked it if WWs and the wights weren't all tied to the NK but they got scattered and fled after NK and his tethered forces die. They would be implied to return some time in a distant future with a new leader of the Others.

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Yes, all the WW dying was the worst part. Having the WW retreat into the night would be better imo for the story. They need to put someone (Dany or Jon, could be a reason why Jon wants the throne) to make sure the WW are never forgotten and the wall repaired and properly staffed forever.

 

[Heshinsi]

So in other words nanomachines? I mean if you are going with "well the children could have programmed that!" you could explain away anything you want with that.

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Is the smirking more impressive than the rest of the nonsense they gave him? Dude is essentially an Ice god. Oh I forgot he can control the weather too and bring blizzards to the front out of nowhere in mere seconds.

This would be like Sauron making the ring wearers uncontrollable and far stronger than him. I hate the NK and his bullshit. He's just GoT's version of the terminator. I'm pretty sure he too smirked once or twice while carrying out his programming to kill Sarah. Was the terminator not a mindless killing machine in the first film?

 

[Neece]

Because Bran said so last episode. (And everyone loved S8E2.)

This show has been dumb as fuck for years. We're watching it for character moments (for those characters established in S1-3, in my case) and spectacle (not so much in my case, but Winds of Winter was masterfully crafted), not for deep plotting. Right?

I can't comprehend people having watched seasons 5, 6, and 7 and still expecting the show to be intelligent. It's like they're watching Battle of the Five Armies and thinking, "oh, any minute now it's going to become as good as Fellowship of the Ring".

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I think the hope was after they streamlined the show after wiping dozens of characters and their respective subplots off the board in 5-7 that we'd get to a smaller and more intimate story that they could manage better...and that it would be directly from GRRMs end game notes so it would make sense.

 

[Ocarina_117]

How would you rate it? On scale from 1 to 10.

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A solid 8/10, my opinion raised on rewatch.

I have my qualms with the writing choices of the show. But Sapochnik and Djawadi really did outstanding work.

 

[MathLx]

I just want to say that whatever happens now, the music was bomb and that is enough for me.

 

[Deleted member 3058]

That poll. 'depsite it's glaring problems' is winning.

Fuck me.

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Never heard of a push poll?

 

[Heshinsi]

She learned how to rule, as a dictator. She operates under righteous motives, but that is very much her perspective and not necessarily building towards a protagonist role if left unchecked.

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Until she arrived in Westeros, this other perspective you speak of was essentially, "fuck you give us our human property back!" Tyrion himself couldn't negotiate with these people, and they made him look like an idiot.

 

[Scuffed]

Now that Dany has lost her entire army, it really feels like we just wasted time in Essos. Dany neither learned how to rule nor learned to emphasize her Targaryen nature, so she was just spinning her wheels for a few seasons. Very unsatisfying.

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The army will be replenished quickly they always are in this show. Armies just show up outa nowhere all the time.

 

[Zen]

I don't understand. How did her ruling style change and what caused the change? I don't see much difference from her now and then. She's always ruled with compassion but had a fiery temper. Her trying to appease everyone in Meereen (and failing) even mirrors her trying to kindly take over the Seven Kingdoms (and failing) instead of unleashing holy hell on Cercei.

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She has always been a monarch minded person first and foremost. She's always believed it her right to have the throne, or rather take it, and her compassion for the oppressed never completely hides this. Her decree is still a variant of 'join me or die' to Westeros.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Let me just once and for all explain why people are upset. And, Morrigan can back me up if she thinks I'm hitting the mark. This is going to be my grand, end all be all, post on the subject so strap the fuck in. In this laborious post, I will be using examples from both the books and the show. This is to prove how it fails on both levels. And, to understand the extent to which the show failed to adhere to the point of the series/text. Accordingly, to avoid confusion, I'll be placing book reference in italicizes while show references will remain in regular text. Let's go:


The show might be called Game of Thrones, but the novels are part of a series titled A Song of Ice and Fire. The series is not about the Iron Throne, the Throne is not important. That is at least what Martin seems to be building towards. All of these petty lords and humans squabbling over a piece of iron while a true world ending threat is just outside their door step. This is why he has compared the WW threat to climate change. The world is about to be drowned in rising sea levels, but Republicans will still argue over taxes and regulations. The show and the books literally both start with the introduction of the White Walkers/The Others. It's what the series has always been about.

We're told that long ago the White Walkers came and heralded in a Long Night that lasted a generation all across the world. Kings and Queens froze to death in their castles the same as lowly peasants in their hovels. And, whole people were born, lived, and died in the dark night, never seeing the sun. See (Old Nan Tale S1). It was at some point during these times that a Hero arose that fought back the Darkness. He/She rallied the forces of the world fighting against the WW's with a flaming sword called Lightbringer. This legendary figure's name is different in each culture/part of the world: Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon the Hero, Eldric Shadowchaser, The Last Hero, or The Prince that Was Promised. But all agree that they turned the tide in the conflict and ultimately won back the Day.

However, the threat was not outright defeated as the forces of the world clearly believed the forces of the Night would return again someday. Thus, in the West, the Wall was constructed and the Night's Watch was formed to "Guard the Realms of Men." In the east, the Five Forts of Yi Ti were constructed. And, it is there in the East that the religion of R'hllor, the Red God, birthed, spread, and prophesied that the Long Night would come again and usher in a New War for the Dawn and that Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised would be reborn to lead humanity to victory against this conflict.

Why am I mentioning all of this? Who cares? Well, it's because for SEVEN SEASONS (and five books) we have been primed and prepared for the coming of the Long Night again. We've been told again and again that, "WINTER IS COMING." We've been told that nothing else matters, that this squabbling over the Thorne is meaningless and is blinding everyone from the true threat in the North. The last time the White Walkers came, the forces of Men at least had the Children of the Forest and their magic on their side. But, over the years, magic has faded from the world and the memories of men are fleeting. The Night's Watch has been reduced to an "army of undisciplined boys and tired old men" with less than "a thousand" left, so few The Watch can only man three castles across The Wall. See (Maester Aemon, S1E03). And, no one in the realm believes the White Walkers were even real to begin with but instead just another fairytale next to the tales of Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder during the Age of Heroes. See (Maester Luwin S1). The stage is set for humanity to be hit with a rude awakening once Winter Comes as they are totally unprepared and unwilling to get prepared.

Now, let's fast forward to last Sunday's episode, the White Walker threat was completely eradicated in their first major confrontation/battle with the forces of Men. And, the Night King turned into little shards of ice after being jumped from behind. This great battle was waged by the battered remaining remnants of the Northern Houses who managed to survive two back-to-back civil wars; reinforcements from the Vale; and the surviving members of Daenerys Targaryen's Essos army who (much like the Northerners) were also diminished time and again by perpetual warfare and conquest. No army South of the Neck joined the Battle. No River Lords, a half a dozen Iron Islanders, no Stormlanders, no one in the Marches, no one from the West (besides a one-armed Knight), no one from the South in either Dorne or the Arbor, no Sword of the Morning, no one from the Reach (besides a fat failed Maester), no one from any of the Free Cities of Essos, no group of Faceless Men, no contingent of Red Priests and/or Shadowbinders from Asshai or Volantis, no gang of Braavosi water dancers, not a single free company from Lys, Tyrosh, or Myr; NOTHING.

No one South of the Neck has even seen a White Walker, nor will they ever see one at this point. No one South of the Neck had to risk anything, sacrifice anything, or suffer any consequences for ignoring the threat to the North. The Reach is an area of bountiful harvests, bursting with food. They will never know hunger or starvation or the effects of a hundred year long dark winter. They will only know Arbor Gold wine and fat stacks of bread. They contributed NOTHING to the eventual conflict that threatened the world and gained EVERYTHING.

And so now we cut to the especially hard truth of the matter, nothing mattered. Every sacrifice was pointless and worthless. Benjen Stark ranging North of the Wall. Old Bear Mormont leading the majority of the Night's Watch North of the Wall. The FiSt of the First Men. Qhorin Half-Hand sacrificing himself to Jon Snow so word could reach back to the Watch. Stannis accepting the burden. Stannis forsaking the faith of the land and accepting the spread of R'hllor/the Red God. Stannis killing his brother through shadowbinding. Stannis and Melisandre sacrificing folk to the flames. Daenerys Targaryen losing her unborn child. Daenerys Targaryen birthing dragons back into the world. Daenerys enduring the Red Wastes. Daenerys visions in the House of the Undying. Mance Rayder gathering the largest army the world has ever seen. Jon Snow watching Ygritte die. Stannis forsaking pursuing the Throne to aid the Night's Watch. Stannis leading his army North to take Winterfell. Mance Rayder choosing to be burned alive. Bran going North of the Wall. Jojen sacrificing himself for Bran. Bran becoming the 3ER. Hodor Holding the Door. Jon giving The Gift to the Wildlings. Jon harboring Alys Karstark. Jon Snow choosing to fight Ramsay Snow. Jon Snow dying and being resurrected. Berric Dondarrion being resurrected a dozen or so times. Daenerys Targaryen choosing to turn her army North instead of South to claim her rights by all the laws of Gods and Men. Jon Snow giving up his title as King of the North to gain Daenerys as an ally.

ALL OF THAT, PLUS MORE, that was all for NOTHING. These people were all idiots. They should have listened to Cercei and the skeptics this whole time, for if they had done nothing, they would all be better off. The only exception perhaps being Mance Rayder, but if he had known the WW's were so easy a threat to be dismayed by a dragonglass/dragonsteel dagger to the heart of their leader, perhaps he would not have chosen to lead his army South.

The truth is that had everyone done nothing, the WW's would not have been able to breach the Wall. The Wall protected against the WW's crossing over for thousands of years, and as Benjen Stark noted, its magic protects undead from crossing over. It was only through the stupid act of doing something, of actually taking the threat serious, that allowed the NK to claim one of Dany's dragons and use it to knock down The Wall. But, if everyone had just sat down and done nothing, nobody would have needed to die. The World would have been safe. Cercei was right.



And now we get to the crux of the antithetical nature of this resolution. Martin has compared the WW threat as being akin to Climate Change. But, according to this last episode, climate change skeptics are all right. Climate Change isn't that big of deal. We don't need the whole world working together to solve this issue. In fact, you just need a small band of dedicated individuals, including a savant child. They will sacrifice everything and solve the issue. Meanwhile, you can sit back and race your Hummers down the highway all you want, guzzle down gallons of gas, pump more and more toxins into the sky to produce ever more junk, throw your plastic trash into the sea, and deregulate the entire environmental protection laws and agencies. You were a fucking idiot to believe you had to sacrifice anything to make the world a better place, all it ever took was a sacrifice from a few individuals whom you've never heard of and will likely never hear of. They solved everything while you sat back and relaxed, unaware there was even a problem in the first place. And with climate change forever solved, they too can get back to squabbling over taxes and pieces of imaginary lines on a map.

Hoooray, did we subvert your expectations?

This isn't about Arya jumping the Night King from behind, it's the underlying message behind it all. Nothing that we saw in the past seven seasons meant anything, all of those sacrifices and pains were for naught. The WW's were not some end of the world threat that required everyone in the world to pay attention and work together to solve. They were a minor inconvenience that affected only the North and were defeated without ever leaving the North.

I could keep going since idiots keep thinking that the book prophecies are actually all dumb and meaningless. News flash, they aren't. But, that's a whole separate topic and veers too hard into the books. What I've just laid out is the real reason people hate the episode. And, we haven't even gotten into the actual nitpicky nonsense regarding the actual battle of the episode. Artillery in the front lines. Cavalry charging in the dark into the front lines of the enemy instead of waiting on the flanks. No hot oil to repel climbing invaders. A comically small moat of fire. No proper barricades of the main entrance. No one realizing that a dude that can raise the dead can actually raise the dead and thus sticking everyone in the crypts is a bad idea. Just LOL.

But, but Mr. BossAttack , this series is called Game of Thrones, it's actually always been about the politics. Fuck you and STFU. No, it's not. The show hasn't been about "complex politics" since it ran out of books to adapt. It's why every political character turned into a DUNCE with an extra big D on their hat the moment they left Kings Landing. Varys, Tyrion, Littlefinger, all of them turned into slack jawed yokels that couldn't rub to pennies together in their heads once the books dried up. Even worse, they made decisions that flew in the face of all political acumen and logic in the world. Littlefinger openly gives Sansa to Roose Bolton. Sansa! A declared traitor to the Crown that Cercei has demanded the head of, LF gives her up openly despite owing all his lands and titles to the Crown which they can easily snatch from him. He does this to gain…oh that's right to gain fuck all because it was all a contrivance to have Sansa raped for shock value.

Now that the NK is gone you expect me to get invested back in the politics of the world when the politics haven't made sense for five seasons? How can I get invested with Cercei as the main villain? Cercei makes no sense. I can't invest myself in an enemy that adheres to no logic. How does Cercei have any allies or power? She blew up the holiest site in Westeros along with the Pope and all the great Nobles Houses are like, "okay, cool." And, all the superstitious peasant folk that incited a small uprising that ousted the previous Pope and installed a People's Pope are equally just okay with what Cercei did. Cercei also has gold and resources to back her that just spring from nowhere. The Iron Bank are also keen to back her. Why? At least if this was the books we could justify it by saying that the Iron Bank despises the return of dragons. But the show never set this up, so it's irrelevant. Why should the Iron Bank back a crazy lady when Daenerys seems a more stable ruler and under her father's reign the Crown's coffers were overflowing and the Crown's debts were being paid on time?

Tell me again, how do I invest in such a comical enemy when nothing about her makes sense? The NK was at least nice because you didn't have to think, he was just pure evil. He didn't speak and he had one goal, kill everything. You didn't have to think about the dumb politics or logistics. It was an enemy made for D&D (hell, one they made up) and now he's gone. Now, we have to go back to an enemy you do have to think about and who makes no sense.



Do you understand the problem?

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Great post, and I agree with most of what you said, but I don't know that I agree that The Wall is definitely 100% going to repel the army of the dead if they never get a dragon (through Jon's bumbling fucking idiocy of a plan, which may be the single worst plan anyone on the show has ever had; how the fuck did he plan to isolate a single wight in an army of tens of thousands? It's not like they step away to take a piss. It's just mind-boggling that anyone went along with it). If that were the case, why bother manning The Wall at all? If it's solely to keep the Wildlings on their side, then already the idea that "all men must stand against the army of the dead" is shattered because you've effectively said "except for y'all, we don't care if you die and bolster his numbers, we've got this huge fuck-off wall to protect us." They man The Wall because there is an expectation that whatever magic is imbued in The Wall is not going to be enough to prevent the armies of the dead from eventually penetrating it.

Now, again, Jon's stupid fucking plan accelerates everything by giving the Night King a really easy path through The Wall. No doubt they would have been better off having not done that. But the Night King, despite spinning his wheels for fucking decades taking Craster's kids and just sort of staring at The Wall wistfully like "one of these days," has also accelerated his plans through the attack on Hardhome. That, plus all the Wildling corpses he keeps stumbling across, bolsters his strength to the point where he's going to attempt to breach The Wall irrelevant of whether he has a dragon. And we keep hearing that the Night's Watch doesn't have the men to repel him, even with this so-called "Wall Magic" that's supposed to keep him out. So even if he doesn't get a dragon, there's a solid chance he takes Eastwatch regardless. And it's not like you can weaken his army by lessening the number of soldiers he has; after a battle, he just resurrects everyone, plus the dead on the other side. So, effectively, every single battle his army gets more formidable.

So you have to accept that he's going to breach The Wall and start moving south, killing dudes and building his army; this has been the internal logic of the show since episode 1. Even barring Jon gifting him a dragon, this was inevitable. If the characters do nothing, as you claim, then the Night King takes over castle after castle, killing everyone and building his army until they are an unstoppable force. They pretty much already were; they took out the Dothraki instantaneously, as well as the Unsullied, and pretty much killed everyone in the castle outside of the people with plot armor so thick it stretches across the narrow sea. If the characters do nothing, instead focusing on war with Cersei and King's Landing, they're still going to have to face the army of the dead, except it will be 200,000+ strong and they'll have very few soldiers left due to their war for the Iron Throne. They couldn't just ignore the issue. Cersei has more of an excuse because she's over a thousand miles away while the North is the first thing that's going to be hit geographically. But the idea that "just don't worry about it" is somehow a valid response to the threat that the Night King represents doesn't make any sense whatsoever. They have to respond in some way or the North gets flattened, and the rest of Westeros follows with it.

Now, that being said, I think that you're absolutely correct in the rest of your assessment that the way the show handled the particulars ultimately made most of the other things we've seen pointless. It does ultimately subvert the narrative because the South had to offer nothing and they won't even believe the threat was ever real, the North lost most of its fighters while Cersei bolstered her strength, and the threat was defeated in a silly manner. But the North were sort of fucked here regardless. It echoes the Wildlings asking the Night's Watch for help and being told to fuck off; they aren't here yet, not our problem. Which actually seems to be a recurring theme in the show; "why the fuck should we help you... oh shit, please help us!" Cersei's biggest win here is a matter of geography more than anything (that and treachery, but we're used to that).

 

[Zen]

Until she arrived in Westeros, this other perspective you speak of was essentially, "fuck you give us our human property back!" Tyrion himself couldn't negotiate with these people, and they made him look like an idiot.

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Hero in one circumstance, villain in another. She is a hero of Essos, but an invader in Westeros.

 

[Deleted member 3058]

My issue with this is it sends the message that we all can band together to beat the big bad and everything's gonna be okay. That's Jon's view on it, but the truth is he doesn't have any plans after the big bad. He is more like Ned than any of the other Stark kids. He has a strong sense of justice but poor foresight. I don't agree that the narrative should be on board with Jon's idealism. What happens after the existential crisis? Heroes are a temporary idea. They might be righteous in one circumstance, villains in another. Good deeds mostly go unnoticed and ignored by the masses if it doesn't directly affect them.

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Jaime's past is a living example of this. He saved countless lives but no one knew the threat so he lived the rest of his days derided as the kingslayer

 

[Heshinsi]

Hero in one circumstance, villain in another. She is a hero of Essos, but an invader in Westeros.

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But she was brought to Westeros on the backs of an alliance of Westerosi great Houses who sided with her against the crown. Just because Cersei somehow managed to wipe out the Tyrells, Yara's Iron born, and Dorne, doesn't negate the fact that at the start of season 7, Dany had more Westerosi houses (including the houses who are bannermen for Tyrell, Greyjoy revels, and Martel) allied with her than any other person in Westeros.

Tyrion is the reason the throne thing wasn't sorted out by the end of episode 2 season 7. Jon Snow would have arrived south to seek support from an individual who had the support of the Reach, Dorne, and now the Crownlands. The Riverlands would have been an easy add on. That leaves the Vale and the North, and the Northern King was coming down to parlay. The blame is on Tyrion for being an tactically dumb advisor.

 

[Zen]

But she was brought to Westeros on the backs of an alliance of Westerosi great Houses who sided with her against the crown. Just because Cersei somehow managed to wipe out the Tyrell's and Dorne, doesn't negate the fact that at the start of season 7, Dany had more Westerosi houses (including the houses who are bannermen for Tyrell and Martel) allied with her than any other person in Westeros.

Tyrion is the reason the throne thing wasn't sorted out by the end of episode 2 season 7. Jon Snow would have arrived south to seek support from an individual who had the support of the Reach, Dorne, and now the Crownlands. The Riverlands would have been an easy add on. That leaves the Vale and the North, and the Northern King was coming down to parlay. The blame is on Tyrion for being an tactically dumb advisor.

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Yes she was targeted by Westeros rulers. Her targeting the throne seat is still more of a selfish motivation than altruism. She pursues it partly out of revenge. And her ruling methods are that of a dictatorship. Join her or be burned for the indigenous of Westeros. And her hesitance to allow the North its freedom as well.

 

[The Artisan]

No lol. It's just that like LF, Varys is a lying, manipulative piece of shit. So going off of your scenario where he attempts to talk to Jon about Ned and how he knew him and what not. Bran should realistically LF him on the spot by mentioning that line. Then a lightbulb should go on in Arya's head and she yells, "you!"

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Aw man so you don't like Varys? He's a conspiring and manipulatively spider, but I don't think he's a snake like Littlefinger.

He tried to save Ned, he was horrified when he learned Littlefinger indirectly killed Ros, he saved Tyrion and said that he has compassion. It seems like Varys actually cares about bringing peace to the world.

Littlefinger on the other hand was only looking out for number 1 every step he ever took.

 

[Neece]

Aw man so you don't like Varys? He's a conspiring and manipulatively spider, but I don't think he's a snake like Littlefinger.

He tried to save Ned, he was horrified when he learned Littlefinger indirectly killed Ros, he saved Tyrion and said that he has compassion. It seems like Varys actually cares about bringing peace to the world.

Littlefinger on the other hand was only looking out for number 1 every step he ever took.

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He sent people to assasinate Dany so that's probably why they don't like him.

 

[VectorPrime]

Let me just once and for all explain why people are upset. And, Morrigan can back me up if she thinks I'm hitting the mark. This is going to be my grand, end all be all, post on the subject so strap the fuck in. In this laborious post, I will be using examples from both the books and the show. This is to prove how it fails on both levels. And, to understand the extent to which the show failed to adhere to the point of the series/text. Accordingly, to avoid confusion, I'll be placing book reference in italicizes while show references will remain in regular text. Let's go:


The show might be called Game of Thrones, but the novels are part of a series titled A Song of Ice and Fire. The series is not about the Iron Throne, the Throne is not important. That is at least what Martin seems to be building towards. All of these petty lords and humans squabbling over a piece of iron while a true world ending threat is just outside their door step. This is why he has compared the WW threat to climate change. The world is about to be drowned in rising sea levels, but Republicans will still argue over taxes and regulations. The show and the books literally both start with the introduction of the White Walkers/The Others. It's what the series has always been about.

We're told that long ago the White Walkers came and heralded in a Long Night that lasted a generation all across the world. Kings and Queens froze to death in their castles the same as lowly peasants in their hovels. And, whole people were born, lived, and died in the dark night, never seeing the sun. See (Old Nan Tale S1). It was at some point during these times that a Hero arose that fought back the Darkness. He/She rallied the forces of the world fighting against the WW's with a flaming sword called Lightbringer. This legendary figure's name is different in each culture/part of the world: Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon the Hero, Eldric Shadowchaser, The Last Hero, or The Prince that Was Promised. But all agree that they turned the tide in the conflict and ultimately won back the Day.

However, the threat was not outright defeated as the forces of the world clearly believed the forces of the Night would return again someday. Thus, in the West, the Wall was constructed and the Night's Watch was formed to "Guard the Realms of Men." In the east, the Five Forts of Yi Ti were constructed. And, it is there in the East that the religion of R'hllor, the Red God, birthed, spread, and prophesied that the Long Night would come again and usher in a New War for the Dawn and that Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised would be reborn to lead humanity to victory against this conflict.

Why am I mentioning all of this? Who cares? Well, it's because for SEVEN SEASONS (and five books) we have been primed and prepared for the coming of the Long Night again. We've been told again and again that, "WINTER IS COMING." We've been told that nothing else matters, that this squabbling over the Thorne is meaningless and is blinding everyone from the true threat in the North. The last time the White Walkers came, the forces of Men at least had the Children of the Forest and their magic on their side. But, over the years, magic has faded from the world and the memories of men are fleeting. The Night's Watch has been reduced to an "army of undisciplined boys and tired old men" with less than "a thousand" left, so few The Watch can only man three castles across The Wall. See (Maester Aemon, S1E03). And, no one in the realm believes the White Walkers were even real to begin with but instead just another fairytale next to the tales of Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder during the Age of Heroes. See (Maester Luwin S1). The stage is set for humanity to be hit with a rude awakening once Winter Comes as they are totally unprepared and unwilling to get prepared.

Now, let's fast forward to last Sunday's episode, the White Walker threat was completely eradicated in their first major confrontation/battle with the forces of Men. And, the Night King turned into little shards of ice after being jumped from behind. This great battle was waged by the battered remaining remnants of the Northern Houses who managed to survive two back-to-back civil wars; reinforcements from the Vale; and the surviving members of Daenerys Targaryen's Essos army who (much like the Northerners) were also diminished time and again by perpetual warfare and conquest. No army South of the Neck joined the Battle. No River Lords, a half a dozen Iron Islanders, no Stormlanders, no one in the Marches, no one from the West (besides a one-armed Knight), no one from the South in either Dorne or the Arbor, no Sword of the Morning, no one from the Reach (besides a fat failed Maester), no one from any of the Free Cities of Essos, no group of Faceless Men, no contingent of Red Priests and/or Shadowbinders from Asshai or Volantis, no gang of Braavosi water dancers, not a single free company from Lys, Tyrosh, or Myr; NOTHING.

No one South of the Neck has even seen a White Walker, nor will they ever see one at this point. No one South of the Neck had to risk anything, sacrifice anything, or suffer any consequences for ignoring the threat to the North. The Reach is an area of bountiful harvests, bursting with food. They will never know hunger or starvation or the effects of a hundred year long dark winter. They will only know Arbor Gold wine and fat stacks of bread. They contributed NOTHING to the eventual conflict that threatened the world and gained EVERYTHING.

And so now we cut to the especially hard truth of the matter, nothing mattered. Every sacrifice was pointless and worthless. Benjen Stark ranging North of the Wall. Old Bear Mormont leading the majority of the Night's Watch North of the Wall. The FiSt of the First Men. Qhorin Half-Hand sacrificing himself to Jon Snow so word could reach back to the Watch. Stannis accepting the burden. Stannis forsaking the faith of the land and accepting the spread of R'hllor/the Red God. Stannis killing his brother through shadowbinding. Stannis and Melisandre sacrificing folk to the flames. Daenerys Targaryen losing her unborn child. Daenerys Targaryen birthing dragons back into the world. Daenerys enduring the Red Wastes. Daenerys visions in the House of the Undying. Mance Rayder gathering the largest army the world has ever seen. Jon Snow watching Ygritte die. Stannis forsaking pursuing the Throne to aid the Night's Watch. Stannis leading his army North to take Winterfell. Mance Rayder choosing to be burned alive. Bran going North of the Wall. Jojen sacrificing himself for Bran. Bran becoming the 3ER. Hodor Holding the Door. Jon giving The Gift to the Wildlings. Jon harboring Alys Karstark. Jon Snow choosing to fight Ramsay Snow. Jon Snow dying and being resurrected. Berric Dondarrion being resurrected a dozen or so times. Daenerys Targaryen choosing to turn her army North instead of South to claim her rights by all the laws of Gods and Men. Jon Snow giving up his title as King of the North to gain Daenerys as an ally.

ALL OF THAT, PLUS MORE, that was all for NOTHING. These people were all idiots. They should have listened to Cercei and the skeptics this whole time, for if they had done nothing, they would all be better off. The only exception perhaps being Mance Rayder, but if he had known the WW's were so easy a threat to be dismayed by a dragonglass/dragonsteel dagger to the heart of their leader, perhaps he would not have chosen to lead his army South.

The truth is that had everyone done nothing, the WW's would not have been able to breach the Wall. The Wall protected against the WW's crossing over for thousands of years, and as Benjen Stark noted, its magic protects undead from crossing over. It was only through the stupid act of doing something, of actually taking the threat serious, that allowed the NK to claim one of Dany's dragons and use it to knock down The Wall. But, if everyone had just sat down and done nothing, nobody would have needed to die. The World would have been safe. Cercei was right.



And now we get to the crux of the antithetical nature of this resolution. Martin has compared the WW threat as being akin to Climate Change. But, according to this last episode, climate change skeptics are all right. Climate Change isn't that big of deal. We don't need the whole world working together to solve this issue. In fact, you just need a small band of dedicated individuals, including a savant child. They will sacrifice everything and solve the issue. Meanwhile, you can sit back and race your Hummers down the highway all you want, guzzle down gallons of gas, pump more and more toxins into the sky to produce ever more junk, throw your plastic trash into the sea, and deregulate the entire environmental protection laws and agencies. You were a fucking idiot to believe you had to sacrifice anything to make the world a better place, all it ever took was a sacrifice from a few individuals whom you've never heard of and will likely never hear of. They solved everything while you sat back and relaxed, unaware there was even a problem in the first place. And with climate change forever solved, they too can get back to squabbling over taxes and pieces of imaginary lines on a map.

Hoooray, did we subvert your expectations?

This isn't about Arya jumping the Night King from behind, it's the underlying message behind it all. Nothing that we saw in the past seven seasons meant anything, all of those sacrifices and pains were for naught. The WW's were not some end of the world threat that required everyone in the world to pay attention and work together to solve. They were a minor inconvenience that affected only the North and were defeated without ever leaving the North.

I could keep going since idiots keep thinking that the book prophecies are actually all dumb and meaningless. News flash, they aren't. But, that's a whole separate topic and veers too hard into the books. What I've just laid out is the real reason people hate the episode. And, we haven't even gotten into the actual nitpicky nonsense regarding the actual battle of the episode. Artillery in the front lines. Cavalry charging in the dark into the front lines of the enemy instead of waiting on the flanks. No hot oil to repel climbing invaders. A comically small moat of fire. No proper barricades of the main entrance. No one realizing that a dude that can raise the dead can actually raise the dead and thus sticking everyone in the crypts is a bad idea. Just LOL.

But, but Mr. BossAttack , this series is called Game of Thrones, it's actually always been about the politics. Fuck you and STFU. No, it's not. The show hasn't been about "complex politics" since it ran out of books to adapt. It's why every political character turned into a DUNCE with an extra big D on their hat the moment they left Kings Landing. Varys, Tyrion, Littlefinger, all of them turned into slack jawed yokels that couldn't rub to pennies together in their heads once the books dried up. Even worse, they made decisions that flew in the face of all political acumen and logic in the world. Littlefinger openly gives Sansa to Roose Bolton. Sansa! A declared traitor to the Crown that Cercei has demanded the head of, LF gives her up openly despite owing all his lands and titles to the Crown which they can easily snatch from him. He does this to gain…oh that's right to gain fuck all because it was all a contrivance to have Sansa raped for shock value.

Now that the NK is gone you expect me to get invested back in the politics of the world when the politics haven't made sense for five seasons? How can I get invested with Cercei as the main villain? Cercei makes no sense. I can't invest myself in an enemy that adheres to no logic. How does Cercei have any allies or power? She blew up the holiest site in Westeros along with the Pope and all the great Nobles Houses are like, "okay, cool." And, all the superstitious peasant folk that incited a small uprising that ousted the previous Pope and installed a People's Pope are equally just okay with what Cercei did. Cercei also has gold and resources to back her that just spring from nowhere. The Iron Bank are also keen to back her. Why? At least if this was the books we could justify it by saying that the Iron Bank despises the return of dragons. But the show never set this up, so it's irrelevant. Why should the Iron Bank back a crazy lady when Daenerys seems a more stable ruler and under her father's reign the Crown's coffers were overflowing and the Crown's debts were being paid on time?

Tell me again, how do I invest in such a comical enemy when nothing about her makes sense? The NK was at least nice because you didn't have to think, he was just pure evil. He didn't speak and he had one goal, kill everything. You didn't have to think about the dumb politics or logistics. It was an enemy made for D&D (hell, one they made up) and now he's gone. Now, we have to go back to an enemy you do have to think about and who makes no sense.



Do you understand the problem?

Click to shrink...

Can we just make this the last post of the thread and close it? Because nothing else needs to be said.