Apparently there was a falling out between him and D&D years ago (one of the reasons might be that they massacred the last script he wrote for them in season 4). https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywoo...e-rr-martin-last-script-the-lion-and-the-rose
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Game of Thrones S8 |OT2| Please do not post spoilers here - assume all episodes have been leaked - spoiler tag all future episode speculation
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Apparently there was a falling out between him and D&D years ago (one of the reasons might be that they massacred the last script he wrote for them in season 4). https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywoo...e-rr-martin-last-script-the-lion-and-the-rose
Completely changing showrunners has its own set of problems, people have their own interpretations of story arcs and characters and that can lead to weird shifts in a show's vision
But I really don't understand why D&D didn't delegate more. They're clearly burnt out, and that's understandable, their work load must be insane.
But most shows at this level have huge writing staff. The showrunners plot the season and write a few key scripts, while the bulk of the episodes are often written by others.
Sure there's Bryan Cogman and Dave Hill, and there used to be GRRM and a few others, but generally D&D are much more involved at the micro level of writing scripts than other showrunners. If they had taken a step back there and spent more time on finetuning the plot I think the show would have benefited, especially after they ran out of book material
This seems like a situation where the two sets of people work well together when it comes to the actual output, despite butting heads. Like a band that hates each other on a personal level but is able to pump out amazing music because they can interact professionally.
I feel like D&D *are* solid showrunners/adapters. Like they can take a script and tune it to make it work well for TV. They just seem too involved in the actual scriptwriting and don't have the capabilities for that part of it. Looking at the IMDB credits for S8 it looks like the first four episodes were all D&D plus two staff writers who had no other GoT episode writing credits previously. Don't feel like digging through previous seasons but I wonder if something similar had happened previously.
Episode 1 was written by Dave Hill and ep 2 by Bryan Cogman, 3-6 by D&D (when the writing quality plummeted).
TV credits can be super misleading. The writer room works on everything, and the showrunners get final pass even without getting credit. And how do you know about specific writing quality in 5 and 6? All you'd know from spoilers is from basic outline stuff, which is writers room with final say by showrunners.
For me it has been...
- Too much Essos
- A lack of Small Council / Adviser scenes (Tyrion/Varys/Davos scenes this season and last have counted)
- Focus on extraneous characters with limited lifespans or that I don't care about (Sand Vipers and Greyjoys)
I had to take massive breaks from reading in books 4 and 5. Too much of a focus on new plots that I'm having a hard time imagining really amount to much by the end. Aren't there more Greyjoy chapters in the books than there are Dany chapters?
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I agree with the decision to end thrones sooner than later, just not all the decisions of how they're ending it. I don't want to end up like like let's say Scrubs or SG1 where the show's end looks unreconisable from the beginning.
Bad decisions such as Arya jumping out of nowhere to kill TNK, the jump scare dragon kill and that monty python esque scene (which may go down in infamy) where it looks like Dany is threatening the gates of kingdom with a small squad. (I miss the slave cities conquests now)
Bad decisions such as Arya jumping out of nowhere to kill TNK, the jump scare dragon kill and that monty python esque scene (which may go down in infamy) where it looks like Dany is threatening the gates of kingdom with a small squad. (I miss the slave cities conquests now)
Yeah, basically, you shouldn't, if you know the show is structured like this. I mean, on this page alone, you have a giant example of why not too take a writing credit at face value-- GRRM's last episode was basically overruled and butchered by the showrunners. Everyepisode is vaguely co-written by the writers room, and especially so the showrunners.
There are shows where writing credits are accurate, like anthology-type shows.
Varys face from episode 4 keeps giving:
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I always figured that the credited writer is the one who did most of the heavy lifting for that episode.
They at least did a draft at some point, usually, but even that's not always the case. On the West Wing, it was mostly a rotating credit despite Aaron Sorkin doing almost all of the actual scripts.
TV writer crediting is generally a mess relative to film and play standards.
I feel like Essos worked well when it leaned into the mystical aspects of the continent. Like I loved the mystery of the Warlocks/House of the Undying in both the book and show (all the killers of the council turning into Warlocks was a great scene), and the Qi lady who laid down some riddles. Even with the books I wish there was more about Assai and the lands of the far-far east. Show kinda ruined a good opportunity when Jorah and Tyrion went through the ruins of Valyria - so you had a bunch of greyscale victims, but otherwise the place was just...normal ruins. The book makes Valyria sound super interesting, show opts to just treat it like a city where the locals left and got replaced by some feral freaks.
I do agree with the political intrigue/debates of the small council and advisors. I feel like Meereen's biggest failure was not introducing enough locals to the situation - you had the one Master's son, but that was it, and he was fairly inconsequential. Meereen needed to have its own version of the small council, with several new characters from Meereen coming to grips with life with the conquering queen. Make Dany negotiate/learn *that*, rather than dropping Tyrion/Varys in and literally air lifting her out when the situation became inconvenient. Have her create an Empire in the East and come to grips with the question if she should even go to Westeros.
I do agree about extraneous characters, though that mostly depends on how they're used. You could say Oberyn was extraneous - he only lasted on season, but he was a fantastic character whose death had far reaching consequences.... or at least should have. The chieftess in Hardhome was similar - one episode, huge impact. So basically write the characters well and they're never extraneous.
Game of Thrones is only going to look worse once everything wraps up. There were so many plot threads that either went nowhere (Dany in Meereen, everything to do with Dorne, Yara and the non-Theon Ironborn) or were never fully explored (Jon's resurrection, Jon riding a dragon, Bran's powers, time travel). Upon rewatching the entire series, people will just point out the extraneous story beats that we will know could have been safely cut without removing any of the greater themes or character motivations.
If Dany doesn't have Tyrion executed in this next episode, then she may as well feed herself to Drogon.
The plan to make a last demand for Cersei's surrender was his plan and it cost her a dragon and Missandei.
Tyrion is Dany's biggest liability, by far.
The plan to make a last demand for Cersei's surrender was his plan and it cost her a dragon and Missandei.
Tyrion is Dany's biggest liability, by far.
I think 8 seasons is about the right amount for the story, just reducing the amount of episodes was a mistake. "The Last of the Starks" felt like two episodes crudely stapled together. The scenes just didn't have time to breathe, like Jaime/Brienne and Jaime leaving should have been in different episodes.
Jesus Christ!
It couldn't be more blatant they wanted to be done with this shit
On one hand, it pisses me off that I finally found an instance where someone actually having a set plan in mind for when their show should end was undoubtedly a badly executed plan
On the other hand, I'm glad the cast never has to work with them again. Emilia doesn't have to mask laughing to defend their shit, and Dinklage doesn't have to look bored because his character got reduced to a sidekick. I wish them all the best going forward
In this particular case they were heading to Dragonstone, anyway. So it isn't a Tyrion specific fuck-up.
Right. And with the total runtime they easily could have chopped these in to more traditional length episodes.
David Benioff and D.B. Weiss's Rush to Finish 'Game of Thrones'
https://www.theringer.com/game-of-t...794/game-of-thrones-ending-too-quickly-pacing
https://www.theringer.com/game-of-t...794/game-of-thrones-ending-too-quickly-pacing
Wasn't that his plan, though? After he talked her into not nuking King's Landing?
And how did Euron know they were going to Dragonstone?
I still think it's very likely that Varys has been leaking the whole time (it would soften the blow of everyone being idiots), but they came up with the plan with everyone in on it at the strategy meeting, Jon was the one who mentioned who was going where iirc.
It was all very rushed.
No, lol. Even if you include Theon, Dany has more chapters than all the Greyjoys combined.
Dude anyway they had to move to KL for the fight, all of this would have happened for that, this has nothing to do with Tyrion.
For me its clear that after they had their meeting with disney and knew they were gonna be fine after GOT they wanted to end it. Imagine if they took the time to map out the seasons focusing on narrative instead of subversion and expectations...
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Yes, I was counting Theon and meant combined. It is pretty close, though, and out of books 4 and 5 the Greyjoys win out (Dany isn't even in book 4, though, so it isn't totally fair).
He's the dumbest character on the show right now, and the audacity that Varys is plotting treason when Dany has listened to almost every single disastrous plan Tyrion has cooked up, is some of the most ridiculous bullshit I have seen. Tyrion's council resulted in:
Daario being left behind when a general of his talents would absolutely have been needed.
The loss of Dorne, Ellaria, and the Sand Snake.
The Loss of the Reach and Olenna Tyrell.
The loss of significant ships from the fleet due to Euron's surprise attacks in season 7.
The loss of Visarion, Thoros, and the destruction of the wall.
After all that, Varys is adamant that Dany must still play with one hand behind her back. The low collateral options have failed one after the other. Mass civilian casualties have already been inflicted by the enemy in their sacking of High Garden and subsequent looting of the Reach. Why are the lives of the people in KL more valuable than the lives of the people of High Garden?
If Stannis had a dragon or two, would he be sieging KL the conventional way, or would he have used those dragons to tear the place apart? You know he would have destroyed KL from the jump and would have laughed at being told to not use them like Dany was told in season 7. Robert would have also used them.
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After the battle when Cersei and Euron are dead, they're probably going to have Dany execute both Tyrion and Varys, and that will be the thing that makes her a "mad queen". When in reality those two have been awful advisors and are now actively talking about treason.
Jon will sullenly thrust his love with his huge, throbbing, turgid sword, and then be sad and go back up north beyond the wall and reunite with Ghost.
Jon will sullenly thrust his love with his huge, throbbing, turgid sword, and then be sad and go back up north beyond the wall and reunite with Ghost.
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Hey hey hey, Tyrion has made monumental fuckups and should prob lose his job but he isn't treasonous....yet
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I swear when I have time I'm going to edit a video together showing the show contradicting itself in just these recent seasons. Remember, Daario was left behind by Dany specifically because she knew she'd have to marry someone to make alliances in Westeros. Then when the very first real potential ally presents herself in Jon Snow, The King in the North, and despite being attracted to him, she doesn't suggest the piss easy solution of them getting married. Instead, she complains about him not bending, refuses to listen to his pleas for aid, and then asks him to go on a pointless suicide mission. ALL of that instead of just marrying the dude and immediately bringing the North to her side.
And now, suddenly she doesn't want to marry because she doesn't wish to "share the throne." What a load of horse shit. Also, what happened to Tyrion talking to her specifically about a successor? She mentions she can't bare children, thus her legacy dies with her. But, she refuses to entertain any means by which she might name a successor. What?!?!?
Rewatching, Euron's first scene in S6 isn't bad, he came across as otherworldly, which they should have gone more with. Overall He comes across as Theon's obnoxious older brother (even if it's his uncle) There are even better C grade villians in the walking dead tv series.
Book Euron felt like the fucking antichrist or something so this weird Jack Sparrow adjace always felt weird
Nobody makes sense in this show anymore. Every single major character acts out of character and or constantly contradicts themselves.
I would expect some kind of twist with the NK's fate vs. memory ( "the North remembers" and Tormund mentioning 'the true North' make me ask: "which North remembers?" ), but with two episodes left, ain't nobody got time for that.
Shame too, since that "ice moving forward" intro was actually a neat way to update the map, as well the final pay-off for caring about 'The Wall' for seven seasons... If only they had somehow had more time, or sped things along earlier.
(yes, I am aware D&D's writing intuitions are not very good, and they definitely did not pitch Confederate by accident, is all I'm saying. It is what it is though. )
Also, no Stannis being brought back from the dead. :P
(yes, we talked about this already. )
Seriously though, one thing the books can massively improve on versus the show is the characters having to deal with their undead friends and so on within the wight horde, like Hodor, Stannis, Ned, or for that matter Jon Snow's very mother rising from the crypt or something. They showed it in ep 3 with Berric, Mormont, the Crow dude, and others, but those characters did not have scenes / appearances after getting ''blue eyed", sadly (I'm assuming they didn't have the actors on hand for other scenes, and even those blue eye shots may have been CG'd). That was kind of an oversight since Hardhome set that up, if you will. Having that leader lady in the horde would have at least made for "hey we remembered this is a thing" bit. Could have been a random Crow, for all I care.
I suppose the undead dragon was supposed to be 'that thing', but that doesn't count, since it's not human.
Oh well, at least it's not BSG... yeah, remember that show? And the actual release time table? You fockers calling this "the worst"... there is SO much worse out there. Like the entirety of LOST, yes.
(which I did not watch because it was bullshit from the get go. Great performances, but zero substance storywise. Only "the constant" is an exception)
Shame too, since that "ice moving forward" intro was actually a neat way to update the map, as well the final pay-off for caring about 'The Wall' for seven seasons... If only they had somehow had more time, or sped things along earlier.
(yes, I am aware D&D's writing intuitions are not very good, and they definitely did not pitch Confederate by accident, is all I'm saying. It is what it is though. )
Also, no Stannis being brought back from the dead. :P
(yes, we talked about this already. )
Seriously though, one thing the books can massively improve on versus the show is the characters having to deal with their undead friends and so on within the wight horde, like Hodor, Stannis, Ned, or for that matter Jon Snow's very mother rising from the crypt or something. They showed it in ep 3 with Berric, Mormont, the Crow dude, and others, but those characters did not have scenes / appearances after getting ''blue eyed", sadly (I'm assuming they didn't have the actors on hand for other scenes, and even those blue eye shots may have been CG'd). That was kind of an oversight since Hardhome set that up, if you will. Having that leader lady in the horde would have at least made for "hey we remembered this is a thing" bit. Could have been a random Crow, for all I care.
I suppose the undead dragon was supposed to be 'that thing', but that doesn't count, since it's not human.
Oh well, at least it's not BSG... yeah, remember that show? And the actual release time table? You fockers calling this "the worst"... there is SO much worse out there. Like the entirety of LOST, yes.
(which I did not watch because it was bullshit from the get go. Great performances, but zero substance storywise. Only "the constant" is an exception)
My main hope for the finale is for it to be as well-scored, filmed, and edited as well as The Long Night and the very start of this last episode. I'll fucking despair if it is edited like the second half of this episode.
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Morrigan Volimar I think this is a good idea, I just don't know how feasible it is to execute or moderate since a lot of people just want to post funny gifs and twitter posts.
I was thinking maybe after 8.5 we should implement something like this - no "theories" or "suggestions" without spoiler tags for the ending. Or do you want to start doing that now?
I would have preffered someone like David Tennant as Euron, a bit like Killgrave, somone creepy, handsome and charming but something really not quite right with them.
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Frog
Actually this would be the creme de la creme fuckyou kiss to book readers.
8.5 is the same director as 8.3 and hardhome, so it should be alright.
8.6 is the mandatory "producer / creator" director credit, so it could be dogshit, or a meaningful finale, complete coin-toss. So far however, GoT finales have tended to be pretty tight, but those always ended on a cliffhanger, so this might go differently.
But anything like the first three episodes would be great, even if they wouldn't feature something as great in its music as "the night king" theme (the piano bit).
Umm...
Users have been posting spoilers in this thread disguised as theories/predictions. Every "prediction" should be put in spoiler tags or posted in the spoiler thread instead.
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