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Game of Thrones S8 |OT2| Please do not post spoilers here - assume all episodes have been leaked - spoiler tag all future episode speculation
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She did what she was supposed to do. She won the battle, she successfully took King's Landing.
The problem is, she didn't stop there. And now she's one of the worst creatures in all of Planetos.
Jon wants to tell his family because his father is ned start and he was raised to be honorable and to be honest. He's not a stark, he's a targeryan. Jon isn't having conflicting feelings about dany, he doesn't love her anymore. He swore that she would be his queen... He's not going back on his word. Thats why they talked about Jorah, to juxtapose Jon and Jorah's feelings for their queen.
And like I've been saying, it would have been pretty easy to get the character to that place and it would have helped other characters narratives in the process.
I mean let Vary's plan gain momentum(the whole saga seemed so half-cocked and out of character for him). Let her feel truly isolated, feel like the lords and people are plotting against her like the Mad King did, start feeding seeds of disdain and distrust for the people of Westeros. Let Tyrion wrestle with the conflict. Let that betrayal really hit her. Let her start expressing that disdain in morally questionable ways toward her subjects, ratcheting up the conflict. Drag her back from the ledge a bit with Jon again but leave the seeds of concern planted in the viewers mind. Have Cersei's iron grip mean more than her soldiers immediately laying down arms, therefore the razing can start as Dany going balls out like her character had been willing to do and then slowly weave in her now established genocidal tendencies and Jon's realization that we are the baddies now.
That is not once established or inferred with the character. What is established is a willingness to go hard to win the throne and bring Cersei to her knees, not the motive to raze a surrendered city and targetting the innocent block by block.
I couldn't care at this point, the situation would have been avoided had the books been written. It's not like he didn't have many years to do them
Honestly I hope they didn't show Dany at the end since she's riding North for Sansa. Bran will just sit and watch for the story and not care either way. This is all on Sansa honestly for pressuring Jon into saying something.
I could see something weird happening were Arya is able to disguise herself as Jon (since he died) and killing Dany in the end. Especially after what she witnessed and if Dany goes after or kills Sansa.
I could see something weird happening were Arya is able to disguise herself as Jon (since he died) and killing Dany in the end. Especially after what she witnessed and if Dany goes after or kills Sansa.
Because they had Missandei and she was still trying to get Cersei to surrender. She was trying to show the world that she wasn't the monster they had thought she was. Then they pushed her over the edge by killing the one person who meant the most to her.
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Do you watch this show with one eye open or something? 😆
First of all, none of what she did till she burned the city after winning it was wrong. Secondly, some of stuff you list didn't even happen (Dany did not burn the Master's entire fleet, watch that episode again). Why do people keep using slavers and a brother who just threatened to kill her as examples of bloodthirstiness?
It's war. She went for the jugular and it worked. Ethics/morals went out the window in Season 1.
This is a really good thread for people who love this season and people who don't.
It's a long time to commit to a project especially one so high profile and subject to scrutiny. In terms of where Martin has left the story it would probably take 10 - 12 series to do it justice. Many people are sceptical that Martin can wrap things up in two books even if they are LOTR length each.
There is also the awkward and somewhat unprecedented situation of having to construct a resolution that doesn't step on the toes of where Martin's narrative is heading.
For all the criticisms of D&D they have at least seen it through to the end unlike most show runners.
I really wish people would stoping taking the stuff they offer up in the post show completely out of context.
Episode was entertaining, the directing was great, and emilia clarke did very well. The ground-level carnage against the spectacle view from Cersei and Dany's POVs was excellent in framing just how insane and desperate everything had gotten.
My biggest complaint though is the way the innocents are used in the narrative. I think that was the most extensive depiction of the horrors of war in the show so far. It was troubling. But it was so obviously included to give impact and momentum to Dany's descent. The people were still just tools for the writers to get Dany to a certain point.
And this relates with the most asinine aspect of the show: its insistent sympathy for Cersei. At the end they try to humanize her and make her seem multidimensional, but it doesn't work because her character arc for years has included the flattening of her into a villain from an R-rated Star Trek fanfic. She was a complicated if ruthless mother, then she became the Smirk Empress and the show celebrated her victory.
Where were the scenes with the innocent when Cersei blew up the sept? Why, now, are we finally seeimg actual humans in Kings Landing, and not before?
In conquering the city, Dany became the villain. I actually like that, as a conclusion to her deluded savior narrative. But by staging the deaths of civilians as the momentum of her descent the way it did, the show turned Cersei into the protector bringing people into the Red Keep and the Lannister soldiers into the brave noble heroes. The show reinforces an infuriating imbalance of impact and significance. Some mass crimes are depicted as victories, some as tragedies in the show, and that inconsistency undercuts a ton of the intended response for me.
In short, they should have written Dany's fall in a way that didn't rely upon narrative sympathy for Cersei, who is an utterly myopic monster of a shit.
My biggest complaint though is the way the innocents are used in the narrative. I think that was the most extensive depiction of the horrors of war in the show so far. It was troubling. But it was so obviously included to give impact and momentum to Dany's descent. The people were still just tools for the writers to get Dany to a certain point.
And this relates with the most asinine aspect of the show: its insistent sympathy for Cersei. At the end they try to humanize her and make her seem multidimensional, but it doesn't work because her character arc for years has included the flattening of her into a villain from an R-rated Star Trek fanfic. She was a complicated if ruthless mother, then she became the Smirk Empress and the show celebrated her victory.
Where were the scenes with the innocent when Cersei blew up the sept? Why, now, are we finally seeimg actual humans in Kings Landing, and not before?
In conquering the city, Dany became the villain. I actually like that, as a conclusion to her deluded savior narrative. But by staging the deaths of civilians as the momentum of her descent the way it did, the show turned Cersei into the protector bringing people into the Red Keep and the Lannister soldiers into the brave noble heroes. The show reinforces an infuriating imbalance of impact and significance. Some mass crimes are depicted as victories, some as tragedies in the show, and that inconsistency undercuts a ton of the intended response for me.
In short, they should have written Dany's fall in a way that didn't rely upon narrative sympathy for Cersei, who is an utterly myopic monster of a shit.
If Bran really can see the future, it's all on him for revealing it to Jon/pushing Sam to do it in the first place. What purpose does it serve?
My thoughts as well. Nothing she's has done so far has even sniffed destroying the entire city AFTER it had surrendered which is why it's a big leap for me and a lot of people it seems.
"Of course Jon is conflicted. It's his aunt! Yuck!"
"He should stop vacillating between kissing her and telling her he loves her and then acting grossed out by her/ignoring her. Especially right after she's suffered a bunch of losses, her people are betraying her, and he himself betrayed her by telling everyone who wants to take her down about how he's the rightful king even though he doesn't even want it. Probably not a great way to handle this relationship, whichever way you want it to go."
"You're just horny for Dany"
Oh word? You got me. lol
Nope to all of this. She had all of the cards. She had the surrender and could have shown the people that she was merciful. They hated Cersei. She blew it all for nothing.
One thing that my brother pointed out that's weird is that the show kind of celebrates the cruelty of characters other than Dany.
Arya is one of the two hero characters in the show and Arya murdered a bunch of abused children and baked them into pies... The show has not suggested any madness for her.
Arya is one of the two hero characters in the show and Arya murdered a bunch of abused children and baked them into pies... The show has not suggested any madness for her.
Yeah, I think this is the issue. She destroys the entirety of King's Landing, but is still gunning for the throne. She doesn't want to be Queen of Ashes so what is she actually trying to achieve? Without any reaction of her during that whole sequence it's hard to see it as more than her randomly snapping and indiscriminately killing everyone simply to fit the Mad Queen twist. Either do one or the other, or show a purpose for why she's doing these things. They tried to cram everything into one basket and it's just a mess.
I imagine this scenario will play out differently in the books. Either
a) She'll burn the Red Keep as an act to instill fear, but trigger the wildfire and inadvertently obliterate the city. Tragic, and the trauma of the event would likely drive her genuinely mad. She'll go on a rampage to retaliate for what she perceives as a betrayal/trap by the city.
b) The commonfolk prefer fAegon and Dany sustains heavy personal losses. She'll give up on the throne entirely and start killing everybody out of hatred, jealousy and spite in order to bring everyone else down with her.
The way it played out on the show...well, Cersei's (dead man's switch) plan succeeded once again. Queen of Ashes indeed.
Didn't hate this as much as most people on twitter. They didn't quite sell Dany's motivations sure, but I get where they're coming from. This episode probably had the best direction of the season (the scenes on the ground during the battle were incredible, especially that oner with Arya and the family), and I thought the moment with Arya and the Hound was great. Also it surpringly made me feel sympathetic towards Ceresei. The spectacle is still pretty enjoyable even if it's not up to par with earlier seasons.
It worked but then she kept going.
And war is not without rules and ethics. Yes people in the the world of GoT often break them but that's exactly why they're immoral and the antagonists whom we hope get their comeuppance (like the Lannisters). And I don't think we've seen anyone in the show commit such giant war crime as Dany did this episode. Her frustrations and aggressive approach to the attack was justified but her continuing massacre was not.
She burned entire sections of civilians that had no soldiers in sight. She "burned it all", if we want to go the "poetry, it rhymes" route. Cersei and her personal, direct followers killed her Dragons and Missandei, not the thousands of women and children that she was warned existed still. Out of all the violent acts Dany has committed, never has she hinted that innocents deserve to die. It would have been very simple to burn everyone responsible in one fell swoop by going after the Red Keep (except for Euron, who was busy being a final boss for Jaime I guess), but she needed to commit a Holocaust first to justify the pacing of her transformation into the "Mad Queen". It's rushed and unfortunately just a symptom of the writers trying to end everything quickly because they want to work on their "What if Confederate soldiers were sympathetic and slaves were still a thing?" show.
Lol why was Ether_Snake banned? Him calling out the bell bullshit right before it happened does not mean he was spoiling any leaked stuff. Wasn't it obvious to literally everyone at that point? Looking at his post history, nothing implies he knew about the bells spoilers anyway.
Other than actively posting in the leaks thread you mean ? Sure.
He hadn't posted there in a week? Wasn't the bell stuff very recent?
Weird definitions of "genocide" some people are operating on here. Even in modern warfare conducted by "civilized" nations, there are heavy civilian casualties (at least as targeted as what Dany does here), rape, pillaging, and the near-obliteration of settlements and cities, but we don't use that word to describe the actions of, say, the US in Vietnam or Iraq.
Solid choice but way off. Im considering Netflix Witcher; that wig holds promise.
no, no no no no... simply no. please explain this... what makes this scenario in any way likable.
Well being generous maybe this was all a 'break the wheel' moment. She ends the Seven Kingdoms in the most brutal way imaginable, goes up to Winterfell to burn Sansa and Bran, then fucks off back to Meereen to rule Slaver's Bay instead, or just goes off cruising the skies by herself.
I mean doesn't make much sense, but it's an option.
It's nonsense that she's never made a mistake before this episode. She learned in Mereen that conquering was the easy part, ruling was the hard part. Shit was going sideways on her there too. She's bounced back before, like with the Dothraki rallying to her, but everything since she's landed on Westeros has been a shit show, and on top of that her claim to the throne is basically null if Jon wants to take it. Everyone around her she's trusted is either dead, betrayed her, or rebuffed her. Two of her three trump-card dragons are gone.
She's never been in this spot. She's had a psychotic lust for the throne the entire show and she's at the finish line feeling like anything less than complete decisiveness will leave her still vulnerable. So she makes up this rationale that future generations will be better off if she nukes King's Landing. Boom, now she's justified in her actions. This is how crazy people think.
Are you sure thats why he was banned? The Bells thing seemed pretty obvious to me once they started repeating it over and over again in the episode. It was "The Crypts are safe!" all over again and when you combine that with Dany's erratic behavior it doesn't seem like that big of a leap to make at the time.
The whole city has been turned to ash, hundreds of thousands have been burnt, killed and raped.
How is that not a genocide?
And I'd definitely use those terms to describe what happened in Iraq and Vietnam.
I do agree with this. The show has not quite been the paragon of illustrating the horrors of war in the past or showing it as a unfortunate act one has to engage in. It's been at times gratuitous and juvenile with the violence displayed on screen. So a sudden attempt to show the plight of innocent victims feels very much manipulative and inconsistent with the show's tone thus far. Nevertheless I think Sapochnik did a good job, however hypocritical it may seem.
I don't have to explain shit. You hate it I don't now move on.
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