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Hydrus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,298
lulz

It is HBO's crown jewel and cash cow. It will be back some day.

It was just a flesh wound, Drogon took Dany to get fixed up.
This season and ending is really going to hurt HBO and this franchise. The prequel was never going to be as big as this series. But after this mess, its going to struggle even more. God D&D are terrible. They could've either passed the show on to new show runners or gave it a less controversial ending and gave Jon and Daenerys a happy ending at the very least. Nobody wins with this rushed ending. Fanbase is angry, D&D the most hated people in show biz right now, HBO with new ownership breathing down their necks and expecting that GOT money to keep rolling in, George probably hates it ( he'll never say it publicly), actors either unhappy with it ( Emilia Clarke, Charles Dance, Conleth Hill) or getting shitted on for sticking up for it ( Turner, Issac, Jacob Anderson). Just a big fucking mess and no one is happy.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,092
Do you all remember when Margeary would go around King's Landing and interact with the people, because the opinions of the people of the city mattered, and if you could sway them to your side that meant scoring major political points? She was teaching this to Joffrey of all people remember?

Yeah well, they decided to hell with all that, and had somehow turned KL into Cersei + Queen Guard Squad + Token Lannister Forces + Mountain + Qyburn + Euron from time to time + copious amounts of wine.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,954
Do you all remember when Margeary would go around King's Landing and interact with the people, because the opinions of the people of the city mattered, and if you could sway them to your side that meant scoring major political points? She was teaching this to Joffrey of all people remember?

Yeah well, they decided to hell with all that, and had somehow turned KL into Cersei + Queen Guard Squad + Token Lannister Forces + Mountain + Qyburn + Euron from time to time + copious amounts of wine.

I still love that everything in my mega rant post after the Long Night episode came through. I told everyone that, that was it. The show was done, nothing mattered and the end would be terrible. Still, bold fools continued to believe. I specifically stressed that ending the series with Cersei, when the series hasn't given two shits about the politics of the world for like 4 seasons straight, would end badly. And, I was right.
 

Punished Goku

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,952
I'm thinking of typing up a complete rewrite of the ending of the series from season 7 episode 4 through the end of season 8, in terms of how I think the plot should have gone and to make it closer to how I think things end in the books. The one thing I just can't figure out is how to end the White Walker storyline; I've got an idea for how I think it might end, but I'm not sure it's satisfying (although still a hundred times better than "Arya stabs one and they all die lol").
Go for it! Pls give Bran becoming king the proper satisfying moment it deserves, like when Robb and Jon became kings.
 
Oct 28, 2017
659
Oh yes. Yes we did. There are 2 or 3 instances of full frontal male nudity in season 1.

Unfortunately, they stopped doing it after season 1. They definitely should have continued, especially since the unwarranted, gratuitous female nudity didn't stopped at all throughout the series...
There were 2 or 3 schlongs during Cersei's walk of shame.
 

b-dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,721
S8 intro only shows Winterfell and Kings Landing too.
Really loved how early seasons jumped around locations constantly. Made the world feel big and diverse.
The world was always going to narrow down as the story progressed and characters finally came into direct conflict with one another. It's not unexpected in any sense, but I get what you mean though.
 

fanboi

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,702
Sweden
This season and ending is really going to hurt HBO and this franchise. The prequel was never going to be as big as this series. But after this mess, its going to struggle even more. God D&D are terrible. They could've either passed the show on to new show runners or gave it a less controversial ending and gave Jon and Daenerys a happy ending at the very least. Nobody wins with this rushed ending. Fanbase is angry, D&D the most hated people in show biz right now, HBO with new ownership breathing down their necks and expecting that GOT money to keep rolling in, George probably hates it ( he'll never say it publicly), actors either unhappy with it ( Emilia Clarke, Charles Dance, Conleth Hill) or getting shitted on for sticking up for it ( Turner, Issac, Jacob Anderson). Just a big fucking mess and no one is happy.

Hm, nah, I don't think so actually.

Sure, now people are content/sour with the series (aka bittersweet). But when the hype for the prequals start rolling I think they will be doing good (of course, it need to be good as well to keep growing).
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Just finished it the other day. While undoubtedly rushed, I thought the ending was fine.

Going into it I expected Lost levels of shit given how much outcry I had seen glimpses of online.
 

Einherjer

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,924
Germany
I actually stopped watching after episode 3 and i don't intend to ever waste my time watching the rest so my ending is actually not too bad, i even kinda liked that Arya killed the Night King at least her character development somewhat paid off from what i read everyone else gets the short end of the stick so i think i'm good.
 

Untzillatx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,375
Basque Country
You know, more than the quality of the last couple of seasons, I think that what will haunt me more is thinking about what it could all have been if done right, with enough time for the plot fully develop into its ending. Every time Iisten to the fantastic soundtrack of this season I get a bit sad, almost imagining and fantasizing about episodes and plot lines that did not exist.
 

Moff

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,781
I'm midway through season 4 of my rewatch and I am amazed by how brilliant it is.
highlights and payoffs in every episode, it's so exciting, everything makes sense. all the best characters and actors are there and the best thing is, Tyrions trial is in many ways the culmination of all 4 seasons. I think i enjoy it even a lot more than when it initially aired.
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
Okay, here we go. I thought about making this a separate thread but I think people are sick of my GoT threads by now so I didn't.

I decided to do a complete rewrite of the ending of the series, including the entire eighth season. However, I believe that many of the problems with the eighth season and the ending of the series began with season 7, episode 5, in which the enormously stupid "wight hunt" idea is proposed. This idea is not only full of bizarre plotholes but also sets into motion serious problems with both the White Walker and Iron Throne storylines that make them impossible to resolve in a satisfying way in season 8. As a result, I also redid the last three episodes of season 7 to remove this storyline and make a few other changes. I constrained myself to following the general principle of the events that were shown onscreen and to only having six episodes in season 8. This is only a rewrite of season 8 and the last half of season 7; all other events in the series happened exactly the same way, for better or for worse, up until season 7, episode 5.

I should note this is a super rough outline. Like, I typed it up in 90 minutes tops. It's not meant to be clean and I'm not even 80% satisfied with it, but I think people would enjoy this ending a lot more than what we got. If you've got suggestions on how to tighten it up or how to address some of the problems I noted in the FAQ section, let me know.

This is the outline:

Season 7, Episode 5
At Winterfell, Arya finds a copy of the letter Lysa Arryn wrote informing them of her husband's death. Jon suggests that Dany bring her dragons north over the Wall to try burning the White Walkers and the Night King. Dany reluctantly agrees, despite her advisors urging her that this is extremely dangerous. Because there is no assembling of the Avengers, this means that yes, Gendry is never re-introduced. He never stops rowing and is not important to the endgame. The Hound, Beric, and Thoros simply show up at Winterfell to help fight the dead; they never make a stop at Eastwatch. Dany teaches Jon how to ride Rhaegal. At Oldtown, Sam reads about the prophecy of Azor Ahai and how he is fated to defeat the White Walkers.

Season 7, Episode 6
The Sansa/Littlefinger scenes play out the same way, with Arya "confronting" Sansa over the letter she wrote under duress in King's Landing. Cersei receives a letter from Jon about the White Walkers and throws it out. Jaime is bothered by her lack of concern, noting that whatever Jon might be, he is Ned Stark's son, a respected leader of the Night's Watch, and not a liar who makes up wild stories. Jon and Dany fly beyond the Wall with the dragons. They find some ancient White Walker stuff relating to the Children of the Forest and their origin, indicating that the White Walkers have a legitimate culture and society and aren't just mindless monsters. They attempt to carpet bomb the Night King but find that dragonfire has no effect on him. The Night King nails Viserion and kills him. Jon and Dany retreat.

Season 7, Episode 7
Dany is unnerved by the power of the White Walkers and tells Jon she needs to take the throne so that she can use the unified forces of Westeros to fight them; Jon says there's no time. Sam arrives at Winterfell and tells them about Azor Ahai; Bran informs them that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son and the heir to the throne. Dany becomes even more bothered while Jon insists he doesn't care about the throne and just wants the White Walkers gone. Jon calls a peace meeting with Cersei, who refuses to attend; she sends Jaime instead. Jaime arrives in Winterfell and hears them out. He agrees that the White Walkers sound like a serious threat but unfortunately Cersei has ordered him not to make peace under any circumstances. Dany allows Jaime to return to King's Landing unharmed, and he is impressed by the mercy they've shown him. With Cersei refusing to help fight, Dany insists she must unite Westeros before anything can be done about the White Walkers. She and Jon part on rocky terms. Dany heads south and masses her forces to attack King's Landing, while Jon and the others prepare to defend Winterfell. Sansa and Arya spring a trap on Littlefinger, revealing that they compared notes; Sansa told Arya that Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn, meaning the entire war was a ruse by Littlefinger, and he is executed. The Night King breaches the Wall.

Season 8, Episode 1
Theon rescues Yara and they go their separate ways, as in the show. The defenders of Winterfell prepare for the battle. Dany musters her forces outside King's Landing. Varys infiltrates the city to collect his little birds and overthrow Qyburn. Tyrion warns Dany that a battle with the dragons could severely damage the city and that Cersei will let everyone die before she surrenders, but Dany is naive and believes Cersei will be rational.

Season 8, Episode 2
The battle of Winterfell occurs. The White Walkers completely overrun the forces of the North. Many are killed. Theon dies holding off the Night King; Beric and Thoros are also killed, but not before reminding the Hound that the Lord still has a purpose for him. A full-scale retreat is ordered and everyone flees south. The White Walkers move slow and take their time killing people, so they don't give chase. During the battle, the Night King and Bran have a greensight conversation. The Night King, in his first and only lines of dialogue, explains that he is headed south to end a cycle of magic that has lasted for ten thousand years: the song of ice and fire, the eternal conflict between Azor Ahai and himself that will only end when both are dead. Winterfell is badly destroyed. Dany gets word of what happened and feels guilty that she wasn't there to help. Bran tells Jon that he is Azor Ahai because he is the son of ice and fire and therefore the war will only end when both he and the Night King die together.

Season 8, Episode 3
Dany attacks King's Landing. Cersei's forces are easily destroyed and Dany takes the perimeter of the city quickly. Cersei's forces seemingly surrender. Suddenly, Euron's fleet engages and kills Rhaegal. The surrender was a trap. Dany gets pissed and flies in on Drogon, mowing down Lannister soldiers in the streets. As soon as her fire hits the street, massive chunks of the city begin to explode in green flame. A horrified Jaime realizes that Cersei knew about Aerys' wildfire caches and deliberately provoked Dany into setting them off. Cersei tells Jaime that she knows there's no way to win and she would rather burn the whole city down than allow a "younger and more beautiful queen" to sit the throne with her evil imp brother at her side. Jaime realizes she's nuts and, as the city explodes around them, kills her to prevent her from setting off a wildfire cache in the Red Keep. Cersei fatally wounds Jaime during the struggle. Among the casualties of the explosions are Grey Worm and Varys, who were in the streets. Dany lands in the Red Keep, the only part of the city untouched by destruction, and sits on the throne -- having finally won, but at a terrible cost. Only one thing survives the explosions: the undead husk of Gregor Clegane, who wanders off into the horizon, no longer having any purpose in life.

Season 8, Episode 4
Dany's first visitor as queen of the ashes is an envoy from Jon, who informs her that the White Walkers are devastating the North and that Jon's ragtag forces have retreated to the God's Eye on the Trident. Dany knows that she must try to redeem her actions by helping end the war for the dawn. She travels to the God's Eye and meets Jon and they confess their feelings. Arya reunites with Nymeria and her wolfpack. The Hound hears rumors of a massive mountain of a man wandering the Riverlands, indiscriminately killing anything in his way. He expresses that he is done with vengeance and has no desire to go after him. Jon tells Dany about Azor Ahai and how he thinks he is fated to die alongside the Night King to end the cycle of ice and fire.

Season 8, Episode 5
The White Walker army arrives at the God's Eye and the final battle begins. The armies of all houses fight alongside each other against the dead. Nymeria's wolfpack shows up. The Mountain wanders in (maybe attracted by the control of the Night King) and the Hound attempts to kill him. He ignites his blade in flames courtesy of R'hllor. The magic fire is enough to put an end to his brother. The Valyrian steel-wielders each fight the White Walkers. Jorah is killed by a White Walker and as he dies, he tells Dany that he has always believed she would be the queen since he saw her "reborn in salt and smoke, waking dragons from stone." Dany has a realization. Jon says goodbye to Dany so that he can fight the Night King, but Dany has a different idea. She tells Jon that she is Azor Ahai and that he totally misunderstood the White Walkers. Bran speculates that this is correct, that the White Walkers are profane creations of the Children and that they have been forced to engage in warfare against humanity for years because of the magical enchantments put on them by the Children. The Night King broke free thousands of years ago and is the only one who is sentient enough to understand that the only way to break the enchantment is for the cycle of ice and fire to end with his own death and the death of Azor Ahai.

Jon says this is all stupid, he doesn't want to be king after she dies, and refuses to stand down, so Dany stabs him. He falls down injured and unable to stop her from leaving. Dany tells him that he doesn't have to be a king or a lord commander or a bastard; after tonight, he is free to be anything he wants. Then she heads out to confront the Night King. They approach each other and some kind of ritual thing occurs where they are engulfed in ice and fire. The Night King returns to human form and collapses; all the wights return to bones. Dany falls dead as well. Drogon, the last vestige of the ancient magic, picks her body up and flies away. Bran says Drogon will live out his days as the last dragon. The White Walkers, free of their magic, return beyond the Wall to their civilization.

Season 8, Episode 6
A great council is convened to decide who rules Westeros now. Some factions support Jon as the rightful heir, while others view him as the ally of the mad queen who blew up King's Landing. There is much debate among the different factions. Sansa tries to make the North independent. Eventually, Tyrion suggests that Bran would be a good king while they try to rebuild the realm; after he dies, the council can reconvene and choose another ruler. Some people are not enormously fond of this idea, especially Dorne and the Iron Islands, and they vote against Bran, but their votes are overruled by the rest of the assembled lords. Bran becomes king and picks Tyrion as his Hand. The North is still part of the Seven Kingdoms as Sansa is satisfied by Bran's selection. Dorne and the Iron Islands begin plotting for a possible war of independence. Arya departs to explore the world, Sansa becomes Warden of the North. Jon decides to return north and rejoin the Night's Watch. Their new mission is not to defend the realms of men from the White Walkers, but to try and understand them. He and Tormund set out with a party to find the White Walker civilization and try to begin a new connection with them.

"Why doesn't Dany go mad? Why doesn't Jon stab her?"
I said I followed the general principle of the events onscreen, but the way Dany's story ends is obviously very different. But before you dismiss me as a deranged Dany stan, I wanted to note that there still seems to be significant confusion over what exactly D&D knew about GRRM's ending. Namely, the thing that's going to be keeping people up at night the next few years is "What was the third "Holy shit" moment GRRM told them about?"

People have been trying to work Dany's madness, burning of King's Landing, or death as the third "Holy shit" moment, but…I don't think any of them work. After all, Dany's madness is supposedly "super obvious," "heavily foreshadowed," and "the obvious end to her character," so why would that be such a surprise to D&D when GRRM tells them? It's not. Nor is King's Landing getting blown up much of a surprise either; we already know there's a Chekov's Gun cache of wildfire buried under the city and it's just a matter of who sets it off. Finally, Jon killing Dany is also something that has been widely theorized for years, usually as part of an Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa prophecy, so being told that by GRRM is not a particularly shocking thing either.

No, I think the answer is a lot simpler: the third "Holy shit" moment is Bran becoming king. D&D said the third moment happens "at the very end" of the story, and Bran being king was a generally obscure theory within the fandom, something that only really starts to make sense in hindsight like the best of GRRM's plot twists.

I did try to match the season 8 events more closely; for example, I tried to come up with a way for Jon to stab Dany as part of the Azor Ahai prophecy, but nothing really made sense. The idea that Jon just sticks his sword into Dany and it lights on fire and he starts wrecking White Walkers is too Hollywood for GRRM. This is why I fell back on the theory of Dany as Azor Ahai.

"If you're so smart, how come D&D didn't just do this instead?"
I think D&D have two fundamental misunderstandings or issues with ASOIAF. I think they have little interest in the supernatural aspects of the story like the White Walkers, and I think they value violent resolutions to character arcs instead of peaceful ones. One of GRRM's central ideas when he created this series was to deconstruct Lord of the Rings, and one specific example he provided was "What does Aragorn do with the baby orcs?" I don't think it's a coincidence that we are introduced to a baby White Walker. The White Walkers are a real culture. They're not mindless weapons of war. They are the deconstruction of Tolkien's orcs, monsters created as weapons who could have a real civilization if they were freed from the magic that created them.

I think that GRRM told D&D a bunch of complex magical and mythological stuff about the White Walkers and how they're defeated, and D&D yawned and fell asleep. The show has never been interested in any of this. So they decided, at some point, to create a more bog-standard Hollywood ending where the White Walkers are just a generic bad guy force that gets taken out by a single blow. But they also knew this wasn't a good, climactic ending to the series, so they swapped this battle with the King's Landing siege. "It's called Game of Thrones, after all, and we need to end the series with the game of thrones." But now they have a serious problem with Dany's character arc, which is deeply tied to this proposed ending with the White Walkers. Now they need to come up with a completely different explanation for why she blows up King's Landing and how she dies. So they consult their ninth grade history textbook, quickly pull an "absolute power corrupts absolutely" message out of their asses, and throw it in there.

I think that D&D were also unattracted to the idea of a peaceful resolution to the series' main conflict. The idea that the White Walker battle is resolved in a peaceful way, with the White Walkers returning north to their own civilization, is something they felt the audience would find anticlimactic. They've spent seven seasons training the audience to love bloodlust and war. The only way they can end it all is with more bloodlust and more war. So the Night King gets stabbed, King's Landing goes boom, Dany gets shanked, and then everything ends happily. This is not GRRM's way.

"Where's the Scouring of the Shire?"
I think people take GRRM's appreciation of the Scouring of the Shire too literally. The point of the Scouring is not that "a big battle happens at the end of the book," it's that "life goes on after war, and we are all forever touched by it in some way." The conflict for the Iron Throne is over, the White Walker threat has been ended, but life goes on as normal. There is a political vacuum in Westeros, one not easily filled by a ten minute scene of people voting on Bran to be king. Everything doesn't just wrap up nicely with a little bow on top. Jon is traumatized by the loss of Dany, several kingdoms are on the verge of open rebellion, and a mysterious new culture that nobody understands is now a player in Westeros. Things are not the same as they were before.

"How do these events play out in the books?"
I think Aegon is on the throne when Dany shows up, and that Cersei is a captive. The general events of the King's Landing battle will play out the same way, with Jaime, Cersei, and Aegon all dying. The books are so far behind the show and so complicated that it's hard to predict where characters like Euron end up in all this.

"Dany goes nuts, you idiot. Her Targaryen madness gene kicks in and she kills everybody and then Jon stabs her, you moron. Get over it."
Maybe. We'll see in twenty years.
 

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
So what's gonna happen in Essos now their ruler is dead?

The more I think about S8 the more sour I get. They ended the show in the worst outcome possible. How do you possibly fuck up this badly? Are D&D even fans of ASOIAF? A layman redditor could come up with better plot for S8.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
Sansa is just a dick throughout this entire finale. Makes sure a Stark rules the Iron Throne, yet still fucks off to stay independent. And then the other 'Stark' she can protect now that she is an independent queen, she convicts him to the pointless Nights Watch. Aka, she made sure the two people that had more right to rule Winterfell (Jon Snow is technically Jon Stark to the public's knowledge) are far away.

So what's gonna happen in Essos now their ruler is dead?
Did anyone tell Daario?
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,326
Someone needs to tell the people of the slave cities what happened the last time Daenerys' corpse and her dragon came to Meereen.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
The amount of dialogue drastically when comparing season 1 to 8.

D7WEZtQUIAE6DTW.jpg



Sansa is just a dick throughout this entire finale. Makes sure a Stark rules the Iron Throne, yet still fucks off to stay independent. And then the other 'Stark' she can protect now that she is an independent queen, she convicts him to the pointless Nights Watch. Aka, she made sure the two people that had more right to rule Winterfell (Jon Snow is technically Jon Stark to the public's knowledge) are far away.


Did anyone tell Daario?

Jon going to the Night's Watch was Bran's decision though.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
This season and ending is really going to hurt HBO and this franchise. The prequel was never going to be as big as this series. But after this mess, its going to struggle even more. God D&D are terrible. They could've either passed the show on to new show runners or gave it a less controversial ending and gave Jon and Daenerys a happy ending at the very least. Nobody wins with this rushed ending. Fanbase is angry, D&D the most hated people in show biz right now, HBO with new ownership breathing down their necks and expecting that GOT money to keep rolling in, George probably hates it ( he'll never say it publicly), actors either unhappy with it ( Emilia Clarke, Charles Dance, Conleth Hill) or getting shitted on for sticking up for it ( Turner, Issac, Jacob Anderson). Just a big fucking mess and no one is happy.
What gave you the impression that Emilia is unhappy with it? She praised the writers lol. Or are we still cherrypicking videos/gifs to confirm our biases.
And honestly, this ending would be worse if Jon and Daenerys had a happy ending. Piss on that. It was already badly done, we don't need to go full CW.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
3,483
Game of Thrones episode scores played on the piano:
Someone worked out that there was 17 minutes of dialogue in the finale. At least half of that must have been Daenerys' Nuremberg rally speech and other characters convincing Jon of the obvious - that he has to kill the genocidal maniac. Then they completely blast through the aftermath, decide on a new king in 5 minutes, and have a goofy small council scene. But don't worry, we had like an hour of characters walking around looking at stuff and enthralling chair moving.
 

NaDannMaGoGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,963


Damn it! Yet another great scene from the good ol' days.

To think Tyrion scenes used to be so enjoyable. Dinklage and most of the other actors sure can act well. They just needed a good enough script to support them but, alas, if you drop below a certain quality of writing you could have the best 'everything else' but there's still no saving it.

edit:
Oh and that scene makes it just the more baffling that Tyrion is weirdly empathetic for Cersei in season 7 & 8.
 
Last edited:

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
Okay, here we go. I thought about making this a separate thread but I think people are sick of my GoT threads by now so I didn't.

I decided to do a complete rewrite of the ending of the series, including the entire eighth season. However, I believe that many of the problems with the eighth season and the ending of the series began with season 7, episode 5, in which the enormously stupid "wight hunt" idea is proposed. This idea is not only full of bizarre plotholes but also sets into motion serious problems with both the White Walker and Iron Throne storylines that make them impossible to resolve in a satisfying way in season 8. As a result, I also redid the last three episodes of season 7 to remove this storyline and make a few other changes. I constrained myself to following the general principle of the events that were shown onscreen and to only having six episodes in season 8. This is only a rewrite of season 8 and the last half of season 7; all other events in the series happened exactly the same way, for better or for worse, up until season 7, episode 5.

I should note this is a super rough outline. Like, I typed it up in 90 minutes tops. It's not meant to be clean and I'm not even 80% satisfied with it, but I think people would enjoy this ending a lot more than what we got. If you've got suggestions on how to tighten it up or how to address some of the problems I noted in the FAQ section, let me know.

This is the outline:

Season 7, Episode 5
At Winterfell, Arya finds a copy of the letter Lysa Arryn wrote informing them of her husband's death. Jon suggests that Dany bring her dragons north over the Wall to try burning the White Walkers and the Night King. Dany reluctantly agrees, despite her advisors urging her that this is extremely dangerous. Because there is no assembling of the Avengers, this means that yes, Gendry is never re-introduced. He never stops rowing and is not important to the endgame. The Hound, Beric, and Thoros simply show up at Winterfell to help fight the dead; they never make a stop at Eastwatch. Dany teaches Jon how to ride Rhaegal. At Oldtown, Sam reads about the prophecy of Azor Ahai and how he is fated to defeat the White Walkers.

Season 7, Episode 6
The Sansa/Littlefinger scenes play out the same way, with Arya "confronting" Sansa over the letter she wrote under duress in King's Landing. Cersei receives a letter from Jon about the White Walkers and throws it out. Jaime is bothered by her lack of concern, noting that whatever Jon might be, he is Ned Stark's son, a respected leader of the Night's Watch, and not a liar who makes up wild stories. Jon and Dany fly beyond the Wall with the dragons. They find some ancient White Walker stuff relating to the Children of the Forest and their origin, indicating that the White Walkers have a legitimate culture and society and aren't just mindless monsters. They attempt to carpet bomb the Night King but find that dragonfire has no effect on him. The Night King nails Viserion and kills him. Jon and Dany retreat.

Season 7, Episode 7
Dany is unnerved by the power of the White Walkers and tells Jon she needs to take the throne so that she can use the unified forces of Westeros to fight them; Jon says there's no time. Sam arrives at Winterfell and tells them about Azor Ahai; Bran informs them that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son and the heir to the throne. Dany becomes even more bothered while Jon insists he doesn't care about the throne and just wants the White Walkers gone. Jon calls a peace meeting with Cersei, who refuses to attend; she sends Jaime instead. Jaime arrives in Winterfell and hears them out. He agrees that the White Walkers sound like a serious threat but unfortunately Cersei has ordered him not to make peace under any circumstances. Dany allows Jaime to return to King's Landing unharmed, and he is impressed by the mercy they've shown him. With Cersei refusing to help fight, Dany insists she must unite Westeros before anything can be done about the White Walkers. She and Jon part on rocky terms. Dany heads south and masses her forces to attack King's Landing, while Jon and the others prepare to defend Winterfell. Sansa and Arya spring a trap on Littlefinger, revealing that they compared notes; Sansa told Arya that Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn, meaning the entire war was a ruse by Littlefinger, and he is executed. The Night King breaches the Wall.

Season 8, Episode 1
Theon rescues Yara and they go their separate ways, as in the show. The defenders of Winterfell prepare for the battle. Dany musters her forces outside King's Landing. Varys infiltrates the city to collect his little birds and overthrow Qyburn. Tyrion warns Dany that a battle with the dragons could severely damage the city and that Cersei will let everyone die before she surrenders, but Dany is naive and believes Cersei will be rational.

Season 8, Episode 2
The battle of Winterfell occurs. The White Walkers completely overrun the forces of the North. Many are killed. Theon dies holding off the Night King; Beric and Thoros are also killed, but not before reminding the Hound that the Lord still has a purpose for him. A full-scale retreat is ordered and everyone flees south. The White Walkers move slow and take their time killing people, so they don't give chase. During the battle, the Night King and Bran have a greensight conversation. The Night King, in his first and only lines of dialogue, explains that he is headed south to end a cycle of magic that has lasted for ten thousand years: the song of ice and fire, the eternal conflict between Azor Ahai and himself that will only end when both are dead. Winterfell is badly destroyed. Dany gets word of what happened and feels guilty that she wasn't there to help. Bran tells Jon that he is Azor Ahai because he is the son of ice and fire and therefore the war will only end when both he and the Night King die together.

Season 8, Episode 3
Dany attacks King's Landing. Cersei's forces are easily destroyed and Dany takes the perimeter of the city quickly. Cersei's forces seemingly surrender. Suddenly, Euron's fleet engages and kills Rhaegal. The surrender was a trap. Dany gets pissed and flies in on Drogon, mowing down Lannister soldiers in the streets. As soon as her fire hits the street, massive chunks of the city begin to explode in green flame. A horrified Jaime realizes that Cersei knew about Aerys' wildfire caches and deliberately provoked Dany into setting them off. Cersei tells Jaime that she knows there's no way to win and she would rather burn the whole city down than allow a "younger and more beautiful queen" to sit the throne with her evil imp brother at her side. Jaime realizes she's nuts and, as the city explodes around them, kills her to prevent her from setting off a wildfire cache in the Red Keep. Cersei fatally wounds Jaime during the struggle. Among the casualties of the explosions are Grey Worm and Varys, who were in the streets. Dany lands in the Red Keep, the only part of the city untouched by destruction, and sits on the throne -- having finally won, but at a terrible cost. Only one thing survives the explosions: the undead husk of Gregor Clegane, who wanders off into the horizon, no longer having any purpose in life.

Season 8, Episode 4
Dany's first visitor as queen of the ashes is an envoy from Jon, who informs her that the White Walkers are devastating the North and that Jon's ragtag forces have retreated to the God's Eye on the Trident. Dany knows that she must try to redeem her actions by helping end the war for the dawn. She travels to the God's Eye and meets Jon and they confess their feelings. Arya reunites with Nymeria and her wolfpack. The Hound hears rumors of a massive mountain of a man wandering the Riverlands, indiscriminately killing anything in his way. He expresses that he is done with vengeance and has no desire to go after him. Jon tells Dany about Azor Ahai and how he thinks he is fated to die alongside the Night King to end the cycle of ice and fire.

Season 8, Episode 5
The White Walker army arrives at the God's Eye and the final battle begins. The armies of all houses fight alongside each other against the dead. Nymeria's wolfpack shows up. The Mountain wanders in (maybe attracted by the control of the Night King) and the Hound attempts to kill him. He ignites his blade in flames courtesy of R'hllor. The magic fire is enough to put an end to his brother. The Valyrian steel-wielders each fight the White Walkers. Jorah is killed by a White Walker and as he dies, he tells Dany that he has always believed she would be the queen since he saw her "reborn in salt and smoke, waking dragons from stone." Dany has a realization. Jon says goodbye to Dany so that he can fight the Night King, but Dany has a different idea. She tells Jon that she is Azor Ahai and that he totally misunderstood the White Walkers. Bran speculates that this is correct, that the White Walkers are profane creations of the Children and that they have been forced to engage in warfare against humanity for years because of the magical enchantments put on them by the Children. The Night King broke free thousands of years ago and is the only one who is sentient enough to understand that the only way to break the enchantment is for the cycle of ice and fire to end with his own death and the death of Azor Ahai.

Jon says this is all stupid, he doesn't want to be king after she dies, and refuses to stand down, so Dany stabs him. He falls down injured and unable to stop her from leaving. Dany tells him that he doesn't have to be a king or a lord commander or a bastard; after tonight, he is free to be anything he wants. Then she heads out to confront the Night King. They approach each other and some kind of ritual thing occurs where they are engulfed in ice and fire. The Night King returns to human form and collapses; all the wights return to bones. Dany falls dead as well. Drogon, the last vestige of the ancient magic, picks her body up and flies away. Bran says Drogon will live out his days as the last dragon. The White Walkers, free of their magic, return beyond the Wall to their civilization.

Season 8, Episode 6
A great council is convened to decide who rules Westeros now. Some factions support Jon as the rightful heir, while others view him as the ally of the mad queen who blew up King's Landing. There is much debate among the different factions. Sansa tries to make the North independent. Eventually, Tyrion suggests that Bran would be a good king while they try to rebuild the realm; after he dies, the council can reconvene and choose another ruler. Some people are not enormously fond of this idea, especially Dorne and the Iron Islands, and they vote against Bran, but their votes are overruled by the rest of the assembled lords. Bran becomes king and picks Tyrion as his Hand. The North is still part of the Seven Kingdoms as Sansa is satisfied by Bran's selection. Dorne and the Iron Islands begin plotting for a possible war of independence. Arya departs to explore the world, Sansa becomes Warden of the North. Jon decides to return north and rejoin the Night's Watch. Their new mission is not to defend the realms of men from the White Walkers, but to try and understand them. He and Tormund set out with a party to find the White Walker civilization and try to begin a new connection with them.

"Why doesn't Dany go mad? Why doesn't Jon stab her?"
I said I followed the general principle of the events onscreen, but the way Dany's story ends is obviously very different. But before you dismiss me as a deranged Dany stan, I wanted to note that there still seems to be significant confusion over what exactly D&D knew about GRRM's ending. Namely, the thing that's going to be keeping people up at night the next few years is "What was the third "Holy shit" moment GRRM told them about?"

People have been trying to work Dany's madness, burning of King's Landing, or death as the third "Holy shit" moment, but…I don't think any of them work. After all, Dany's madness is supposedly "super obvious," "heavily foreshadowed," and "the obvious end to her character," so why would that be such a surprise to D&D when GRRM tells them? It's not. Nor is King's Landing getting blown up much of a surprise either; we already know there's a Chekov's Gun cache of wildfire buried under the city and it's just a matter of who sets it off. Finally, Jon killing Dany is also something that has been widely theorized for years, usually as part of an Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa prophecy, so being told that by GRRM is not a particularly shocking thing either.

No, I think the answer is a lot simpler: the third "Holy shit" moment is Bran becoming king. D&D said the third moment happens "at the very end" of the story, and Bran being king was a generally obscure theory within the fandom, something that only really starts to make sense in hindsight like the best of GRRM's plot twists.

I did try to match the season 8 events more closely; for example, I tried to come up with a way for Jon to stab Dany as part of the Azor Ahai prophecy, but nothing really made sense. The idea that Jon just sticks his sword into Dany and it lights on fire and he starts wrecking White Walkers is too Hollywood for GRRM. This is why I fell back on the theory of Dany as Azor Ahai.

"If you're so smart, how come D&D didn't just do this instead?"
I think D&D have two fundamental misunderstandings or issues with ASOIAF. I think they have little interest in the supernatural aspects of the story like the White Walkers, and I think they value violent resolutions to character arcs instead of peaceful ones. One of GRRM's central ideas when he created this series was to deconstruct Lord of the Rings, and one specific example he provided was "What does Aragorn do with the baby orcs?" I don't think it's a coincidence that we are introduced to a baby White Walker. The White Walkers are a real culture. They're not mindless weapons of war. They are the deconstruction of Tolkien's orcs, monsters created as weapons who could have a real civilization if they were freed from the magic that created them.

I think that GRRM told D&D a bunch of complex magical and mythological stuff about the White Walkers and how they're defeated, and D&D yawned and fell asleep. The show has never been interested in any of this. So they decided, at some point, to create a more bog-standard Hollywood ending where the White Walkers are just a generic bad guy force that gets taken out by a single blow. But they also knew this wasn't a good, climactic ending to the series, so they swapped this battle with the King's Landing siege. "It's called Game of Thrones, after all, and we need to end the series with the game of thrones." But now they have a serious problem with Dany's character arc, which is deeply tied to this proposed ending with the White Walkers. Now they need to come up with a completely different explanation for why she blows up King's Landing and how she dies. So they consult their ninth grade history textbook, quickly pull an "absolute power corrupts absolutely" message out of their asses, and throw it in there.

I think that D&D were also unattracted to the idea of a peaceful resolution to the series' main conflict. The idea that the White Walker battle is resolved in a peaceful way, with the White Walkers returning north to their own civilization, is something they felt the audience would find anticlimactic. They've spent seven seasons training the audience to love bloodlust and war. The only way they can end it all is with more bloodlust and more war. So the Night King gets stabbed, King's Landing goes boom, Dany gets shanked, and then everything ends happily. This is not GRRM's way.

"Where's the Scouring of the Shire?"
I think people take GRRM's appreciation of the Scouring of the Shire too literally. The point of the Scouring is not that "a big battle happens at the end of the book," it's that "life goes on after war, and we are all forever touched by it in some way." The conflict for the Iron Throne is over, the White Walker threat has been ended, but life goes on as normal. There is a political vacuum in Westeros, one not easily filled by a ten minute scene of people voting on Bran to be king. Everything doesn't just wrap up nicely with a little bow on top. Jon is traumatized by the loss of Dany, several kingdoms are on the verge of open rebellion, and a mysterious new culture that nobody understands is now a player in Westeros. Things are not the same as they were before.

"How do these events play out in the books?"
I think Aegon is on the throne when Dany shows up, and that Cersei is a captive. The general events of the King's Landing battle will play out the same way, with Jaime, Cersei, and Aegon all dying. The books are so far behind the show and so complicated that it's hard to predict where characters like Euron end up in all this.

"Dany goes nuts, you idiot. Her Targaryen madness gene kicks in and she kills everybody and then Jon stabs her, you moron. Get over it."
Maybe. We'll see in twenty years.

I don't want my post to be too long, I wrote a lot earlier, edited it out, wanted to make another point it's easy to write too much, so I'll just keep it short.

I certainly like some of this but I do wonder if part of why I like it is because I want for example, Jaime Lannister to fulfill the arc that I thought he was on instead of the one that Martin may have wrote for him. It's something I've reflect on quite a bit lately and it's just possible that Jaime is a lot more grey of a character than people wish.

Dany is going to burn down King's Landing and I don't think it will be by some accident or unintentional in any way. It was clearly the most shocking thing of this season, certainly not Bran becoming king. Even if D&D are hacks, I think they know enough how to emphasize the importance of Bran becoming king if that was truly the shocking thing they were talking about, it didn't get nearly the screen time that Dany did.

George is pretty vehemently antiwar, not all wars he thinks WWII was just but most wars are not.



So, I just don't think Dany is supposed to be the heroine that so many people want her to be, she's setup to be a beautiful conqueror, that's not his heroine. George hid who she was in plain sight by cloaking her cruelty in righteousness. Some people saw it, true, but George did not mean for it to be obvious at first sight, that's not the kind of story he writes.

The question is whether a war with Cersei is really necessary. She's obviously a bad queen, but how many people die in order to over throw her? Probably a lot more than if she stays queen. I mean you could make a lose analogy to the Iraq war. Of course the United States had ulterior motives but even if it was just to overthrow Sadam, look how many people died in the fallout.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
I think the truth will be somewhat in-between BDS and Artdayne.

The thing is that GRRM is not interested in completely villainizing Daenerys or turning her mad. He wants to show that even good guys do bad things sometimes. Yes, he's examining war but also heroism through Daenerys.

"I think one of the themes of the book is the examination of heroism," said Martin. "I have always been fascinated with [the idea], the villain is the hero of the other side.The great fight in the Illiad between Achilles and Hector is in some ways my model more so than fights between a hero and villain traditionally are. What constitutes a hero? Is a hero always a hero?"

Is a hero always a hero?

I don't think Daenerys will be fighting Cersei but "Aegon" because that then sets up a her versus hero confrontation.

I don't think Daenerys is going to be torching people after she's won either though.

Rather, she'll be torching people, even innocents, to win which she sets off the wildfire.

So she still made the decision to kill innocent people to win, which should be condemned as well as her war against "Aegon", but the scale of the damage will be out of her control because it's dangerous playing with fire. It's not controllable.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
The more I think about S8 the more sour I get. They ended the show in the worst outcome possible.


The Night King and all his ice zombies are dead. Much of the human population has survived. The wealthy and fertile kingdom of Dorn is virtually untouched and can feed the survivors. How is that a worse outcome than a nation of ice zombies expanding from Westeros to other continents?
 

ManiLink

Banned
Apr 3, 2019
23
Okay, here we go. I thought about making this a separate thread but I think people are sick of my GoT threads by now so I didn't.

I decided to do a complete rewrite of the ending of the series, including the entire eighth season. However, I believe that many of the problems with the eighth season and the ending of the series began with season 7, episode 5, in which the enormously stupid "wight hunt" idea is proposed. This idea is not only full of bizarre plotholes but also sets into motion serious problems with both the White Walker and Iron Throne storylines that make them impossible to resolve in a satisfying way in season 8. As a result, I also redid the last three episodes of season 7 to remove this storyline and make a few other changes. I constrained myself to following the general principle of the events that were shown onscreen and to only having six episodes in season 8. This is only a rewrite of season 8 and the last half of season 7; all other events in the series happened exactly the same way, for better or for worse, up until season 7, episode 5.

I should note this is a super rough outline. Like, I typed it up in 90 minutes tops. It's not meant to be clean and I'm not even 80% satisfied with it, but I think people would enjoy this ending a lot more than what we got. If you've got suggestions on how to tighten it up or how to address some of the problems I noted in the FAQ section, let me know.

This is the outline:

Season 7, Episode 5
At Winterfell, Arya finds a copy of the letter Lysa Arryn wrote informing them of her husband's death. Jon suggests that Dany bring her dragons north over the Wall to try burning the White Walkers and the Night King. Dany reluctantly agrees, despite her advisors urging her that this is extremely dangerous. Because there is no assembling of the Avengers, this means that yes, Gendry is never re-introduced. He never stops rowing and is not important to the endgame. The Hound, Beric, and Thoros simply show up at Winterfell to help fight the dead; they never make a stop at Eastwatch. Dany teaches Jon how to ride Rhaegal. At Oldtown, Sam reads about the prophecy of Azor Ahai and how he is fated to defeat the White Walkers.

Season 7, Episode 6
The Sansa/Littlefinger scenes play out the same way, with Arya "confronting" Sansa over the letter she wrote under duress in King's Landing. Cersei receives a letter from Jon about the White Walkers and throws it out. Jaime is bothered by her lack of concern, noting that whatever Jon might be, he is Ned Stark's son, a respected leader of the Night's Watch, and not a liar who makes up wild stories. Jon and Dany fly beyond the Wall with the dragons. They find some ancient White Walker stuff relating to the Children of the Forest and their origin, indicating that the White Walkers have a legitimate culture and society and aren't just mindless monsters. They attempt to carpet bomb the Night King but find that dragonfire has no effect on him. The Night King nails Viserion and kills him. Jon and Dany retreat.

Season 7, Episode 7
Dany is unnerved by the power of the White Walkers and tells Jon she needs to take the throne so that she can use the unified forces of Westeros to fight them; Jon says there's no time. Sam arrives at Winterfell and tells them about Azor Ahai; Bran informs them that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son and the heir to the throne. Dany becomes even more bothered while Jon insists he doesn't care about the throne and just wants the White Walkers gone. Jon calls a peace meeting with Cersei, who refuses to attend; she sends Jaime instead. Jaime arrives in Winterfell and hears them out. He agrees that the White Walkers sound like a serious threat but unfortunately Cersei has ordered him not to make peace under any circumstances. Dany allows Jaime to return to King's Landing unharmed, and he is impressed by the mercy they've shown him. With Cersei refusing to help fight, Dany insists she must unite Westeros before anything can be done about the White Walkers. She and Jon part on rocky terms. Dany heads south and masses her forces to attack King's Landing, while Jon and the others prepare to defend Winterfell. Sansa and Arya spring a trap on Littlefinger, revealing that they compared notes; Sansa told Arya that Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn, meaning the entire war was a ruse by Littlefinger, and he is executed. The Night King breaches the Wall.

Season 8, Episode 1
Theon rescues Yara and they go their separate ways, as in the show. The defenders of Winterfell prepare for the battle. Dany musters her forces outside King's Landing. Varys infiltrates the city to collect his little birds and overthrow Qyburn. Tyrion warns Dany that a battle with the dragons could severely damage the city and that Cersei will let everyone die before she surrenders, but Dany is naive and believes Cersei will be rational.

Season 8, Episode 2
The battle of Winterfell occurs. The White Walkers completely overrun the forces of the North. Many are killed. Theon dies holding off the Night King; Beric and Thoros are also killed, but not before reminding the Hound that the Lord still has a purpose for him. A full-scale retreat is ordered and everyone flees south. The White Walkers move slow and take their time killing people, so they don't give chase. During the battle, the Night King and Bran have a greensight conversation. The Night King, in his first and only lines of dialogue, explains that he is headed south to end a cycle of magic that has lasted for ten thousand years: the song of ice and fire, the eternal conflict between Azor Ahai and himself that will only end when both are dead. Winterfell is badly destroyed. Dany gets word of what happened and feels guilty that she wasn't there to help. Bran tells Jon that he is Azor Ahai because he is the son of ice and fire and therefore the war will only end when both he and the Night King die together.

Season 8, Episode 3
Dany attacks King's Landing. Cersei's forces are easily destroyed and Dany takes the perimeter of the city quickly. Cersei's forces seemingly surrender. Suddenly, Euron's fleet engages and kills Rhaegal. The surrender was a trap. Dany gets pissed and flies in on Drogon, mowing down Lannister soldiers in the streets. As soon as her fire hits the street, massive chunks of the city begin to explode in green flame. A horrified Jaime realizes that Cersei knew about Aerys' wildfire caches and deliberately provoked Dany into setting them off. Cersei tells Jaime that she knows there's no way to win and she would rather burn the whole city down than allow a "younger and more beautiful queen" to sit the throne with her evil imp brother at her side. Jaime realizes she's nuts and, as the city explodes around them, kills her to prevent her from setting off a wildfire cache in the Red Keep. Cersei fatally wounds Jaime during the struggle. Among the casualties of the explosions are Grey Worm and Varys, who were in the streets. Dany lands in the Red Keep, the only part of the city untouched by destruction, and sits on the throne -- having finally won, but at a terrible cost. Only one thing survives the explosions: the undead husk of Gregor Clegane, who wanders off into the horizon, no longer having any purpose in life.

Season 8, Episode 4
Dany's first visitor as queen of the ashes is an envoy from Jon, who informs her that the White Walkers are devastating the North and that Jon's ragtag forces have retreated to the God's Eye on the Trident. Dany knows that she must try to redeem her actions by helping end the war for the dawn. She travels to the God's Eye and meets Jon and they confess their feelings. Arya reunites with Nymeria and her wolfpack. The Hound hears rumors of a massive mountain of a man wandering the Riverlands, indiscriminately killing anything in his way. He expresses that he is done with vengeance and has no desire to go after him. Jon tells Dany about Azor Ahai and how he thinks he is fated to die alongside the Night King to end the cycle of ice and fire.

Season 8, Episode 5
The White Walker army arrives at the God's Eye and the final battle begins. The armies of all houses fight alongside each other against the dead. Nymeria's wolfpack shows up. The Mountain wanders in (maybe attracted by the control of the Night King) and the Hound attempts to kill him. He ignites his blade in flames courtesy of R'hllor. The magic fire is enough to put an end to his brother. The Valyrian steel-wielders each fight the White Walkers. Jorah is killed by a White Walker and as he dies, he tells Dany that he has always believed she would be the queen since he saw her "reborn in salt and smoke, waking dragons from stone." Dany has a realization. Jon says goodbye to Dany so that he can fight the Night King, but Dany has a different idea. She tells Jon that she is Azor Ahai and that he totally misunderstood the White Walkers. Bran speculates that this is correct, that the White Walkers are profane creations of the Children and that they have been forced to engage in warfare against humanity for years because of the magical enchantments put on them by the Children. The Night King broke free thousands of years ago and is the only one who is sentient enough to understand that the only way to break the enchantment is for the cycle of ice and fire to end with his own death and the death of Azor Ahai.

Jon says this is all stupid, he doesn't want to be king after she dies, and refuses to stand down, so Dany stabs him. He falls down injured and unable to stop her from leaving. Dany tells him that he doesn't have to be a king or a lord commander or a bastard; after tonight, he is free to be anything he wants. Then she heads out to confront the Night King. They approach each other and some kind of ritual thing occurs where they are engulfed in ice and fire. The Night King returns to human form and collapses; all the wights return to bones. Dany falls dead as well. Drogon, the last vestige of the ancient magic, picks her body up and flies away. Bran says Drogon will live out his days as the last dragon. The White Walkers, free of their magic, return beyond the Wall to their civilization.

Season 8, Episode 6
A great council is convened to decide who rules Westeros now. Some factions support Jon as the rightful heir, while others view him as the ally of the mad queen who blew up King's Landing. There is much debate among the different factions. Sansa tries to make the North independent. Eventually, Tyrion suggests that Bran would be a good king while they try to rebuild the realm; after he dies, the council can reconvene and choose another ruler. Some people are not enormously fond of this idea, especially Dorne and the Iron Islands, and they vote against Bran, but their votes are overruled by the rest of the assembled lords. Bran becomes king and picks Tyrion as his Hand. The North is still part of the Seven Kingdoms as Sansa is satisfied by Bran's selection. Dorne and the Iron Islands begin plotting for a possible war of independence. Arya departs to explore the world, Sansa becomes Warden of the North. Jon decides to return north and rejoin the Night's Watch. Their new mission is not to defend the realms of men from the White Walkers, but to try and understand them. He and Tormund set out with a party to find the White Walker civilization and try to begin a new connection with them.

"Why doesn't Dany go mad? Why doesn't Jon stab her?"
I said I followed the general principle of the events onscreen, but the way Dany's story ends is obviously very different. But before you dismiss me as a deranged Dany stan, I wanted to note that there still seems to be significant confusion over what exactly D&D knew about GRRM's ending. Namely, the thing that's going to be keeping people up at night the next few years is "What was the third "Holy shit" moment GRRM told them about?"

People have been trying to work Dany's madness, burning of King's Landing, or death as the third "Holy shit" moment, but…I don't think any of them work. After all, Dany's madness is supposedly "super obvious," "heavily foreshadowed," and "the obvious end to her character," so why would that be such a surprise to D&D when GRRM tells them? It's not. Nor is King's Landing getting blown up much of a surprise either; we already know there's a Chekov's Gun cache of wildfire buried under the city and it's just a matter of who sets it off. Finally, Jon killing Dany is also something that has been widely theorized for years, usually as part of an Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa prophecy, so being told that by GRRM is not a particularly shocking thing either.

No, I think the answer is a lot simpler: the third "Holy shit" moment is Bran becoming king. D&D said the third moment happens "at the very end" of the story, and Bran being king was a generally obscure theory within the fandom, something that only really starts to make sense in hindsight like the best of GRRM's plot twists.

I did try to match the season 8 events more closely; for example, I tried to come up with a way for Jon to stab Dany as part of the Azor Ahai prophecy, but nothing really made sense. The idea that Jon just sticks his sword into Dany and it lights on fire and he starts wrecking White Walkers is too Hollywood for GRRM. This is why I fell back on the theory of Dany as Azor Ahai.

"If you're so smart, how come D&D didn't just do this instead?"
I think D&D have two fundamental misunderstandings or issues with ASOIAF. I think they have little interest in the supernatural aspects of the story like the White Walkers, and I think they value violent resolutions to character arcs instead of peaceful ones. One of GRRM's central ideas when he created this series was to deconstruct Lord of the Rings, and one specific example he provided was "What does Aragorn do with the baby orcs?" I don't think it's a coincidence that we are introduced to a baby White Walker. The White Walkers are a real culture. They're not mindless weapons of war. They are the deconstruction of Tolkien's orcs, monsters created as weapons who could have a real civilization if they were freed from the magic that created them.

I think that GRRM told D&D a bunch of complex magical and mythological stuff about the White Walkers and how they're defeated, and D&D yawned and fell asleep. The show has never been interested in any of this. So they decided, at some point, to create a more bog-standard Hollywood ending where the White Walkers are just a generic bad guy force that gets taken out by a single blow. But they also knew this wasn't a good, climactic ending to the series, so they swapped this battle with the King's Landing siege. "It's called Game of Thrones, after all, and we need to end the series with the game of thrones." But now they have a serious problem with Dany's character arc, which is deeply tied to this proposed ending with the White Walkers. Now they need to come up with a completely different explanation for why she blows up King's Landing and how she dies. So they consult their ninth grade history textbook, quickly pull an "absolute power corrupts absolutely" message out of their asses, and throw it in there.

I think that D&D were also unattracted to the idea of a peaceful resolution to the series' main conflict. The idea that the White Walker battle is resolved in a peaceful way, with the White Walkers returning north to their own civilization, is something they felt the audience would find anticlimactic. They've spent seven seasons training the audience to love bloodlust and war. The only way they can end it all is with more bloodlust and more war. So the Night King gets stabbed, King's Landing goes boom, Dany gets shanked, and then everything ends happily. This is not GRRM's way.

"Where's the Scouring of the Shire?"
I think people take GRRM's appreciation of the Scouring of the Shire too literally. The point of the Scouring is not that "a big battle happens at the end of the book," it's that "life goes on after war, and we are all forever touched by it in some way." The conflict for the Iron Throne is over, the White Walker threat has been ended, but life goes on as normal. There is a political vacuum in Westeros, one not easily filled by a ten minute scene of people voting on Bran to be king. Everything doesn't just wrap up nicely with a little bow on top. Jon is traumatized by the loss of Dany, several kingdoms are on the verge of open rebellion, and a mysterious new culture that nobody understands is now a player in Westeros. Things are not the same as they were before.

"How do these events play out in the books?"
I think Aegon is on the throne when Dany shows up, and that Cersei is a captive. The general events of the King's Landing battle will play out the same way, with Jaime, Cersei, and Aegon all dying. The books are so far behind the show and so complicated that it's hard to predict where characters like Euron end up in all this.

"Dany goes nuts, you idiot. Her Targaryen madness gene kicks in and she kills everybody and then Jon stabs her, you moron. Get over it."
Maybe. We'll see in twenty years.

Someone hire this person IMMEDIATELY! What a better course of events - This is my canon now. :) Thanks!
 

Deleted member 36493

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Dec 19, 2017
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Man did nobody read my thing
I liked it, but I think it tosses Jon's true heritage to the side like D&D's ending. I always expected it to be this earth-shattering revelation for Jon, Dany, the Starks etc. Like, I wouldn't expect Dany to just say "you're free to be whoever you want after I die," I would've thought she'd support his claim to the throne and maybe tell him that he has the Unsullied, Dothraki, and Drogon if he wants it.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
The amount of dialogue drastically when comparing season 1 to 8.
Season 1 consists of characters sitting around and having convos much more often than them in direct conflict. In Episode 3 and 5 of this season for instance the majority of the episodes are battles and they rely much more on visual storytelling. And that's absolutely an intentional choice. Like the Battle of Winterfell ends with 10 minutes without a character talking because who has the opportunity?
 
Oct 25, 2017
29,446
So I was rewatching Troy(2004) last night for the first time since release,
a movie with over the top violence, loads of buildup, characters that weren't really significant despite their appearance and a disappointing ending...
I couldn't help this weird GoT vibe it kept giving me.

Then the ending credits
David Benioff

giphy.gif
 

Moff

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,781
I liked it, but I think it tosses Jon's true heritage to the side like D&D's ending. I always expected it to be this earth-shattering revelation for Jon, Dany, the Starks etc.
I wondered for years how Jon's heritage could be of any relevance to the plot and if season 8 did at least one thing right it explained that to me. it puts Jon and Dany against each other.
 

Deleted member 36493

User requested account closure
Member
Dec 19, 2017
4,982
I recently watched Alt Shift X's video on the World of Ice and Fire and WOW. I'm actually hyped for the prequels again if they involve exploring Sothoryos and/or the Empire of Yi Ti
 

Deleted member 36493

User requested account closure
Member
Dec 19, 2017
4,982
I wondered for years how Jon's heritage could be of any relevance to the plot and if season 8 did at least one thing right it explained that to me. it puts Jon and Dany against each other.
But the basis of Dany's claim is her heritage. If she finds out Jon is actually the true Targaryen heir, wouldn't she want to support him?
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
But the basis of Dany's claim is her heritage. If she finds out Jon is actually the true Targaryen heir, wouldn't she want to support him?
Not when her entire reason for waking up everyday is to take the iron throne she's been wanting since childhood. And she was completely on the mark about why that had to be kept a secret. Like....10000% on the mark.
 

Hydrus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,298
What gave you the impression that Emilia is unhappy with it? She praised the writers lol. Or are we still cherrypicking videos/gifs to confirm our biases.
And honestly, this ending would be worse if Jon and Daenerys had a happy ending. Piss on that. It was already badly done, we don't need to go full CW.
She fucking hates it. Have you not read a single interview in the past year, especially the newest ones from this week?

  • D&D didnt tell her upfront about her characters fate. She found out 3 days before filming started when she got the scripts.
  • In her own words, she walked around London for 5 hours until she got blisters on her feet, just trying to wrap her head around what happens to Daenerys. She couldn't believe what they were going to do to her.
  • It made her extremely paranoid and insecure. She would randly ask family and frieds if they thought Daenerys was a good person.
  • She had to keep reminding herself that it was going to be the character people would be angry with and not her.
  • A year ago in an interview she said that it "fucked her up" that the last thing people would remember about Daenerys for would leave a bad taste in their mouths.
  • Daenerys gave her strength during her medical issues and she always viewed her as a strong role model for women.
  • She hasnt been able to spin the heel turn and flat out said she stands by her and thinks she's still a good person.
  • She's admitted that she's not happy but she's learned that you have to always accept the script. It's part of being an actor.

Emilia is NOT going to publicly flat out say she hates it, she still wants to work in showbiz and not get blacklisted. But you can easily read between the lines and know she does. Giving Jon and Dany a happy ending, you know the two biggest and most popular characters, would've helped with the backlash. They gave literally EVERYONE else a Disney ending ( Fucking Bronn!!!!). The people that no one gives a shit about.
 

Moff

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,781
But the basis of Dany's claim is her heritage. If she finds out Jon is actually the true Targaryen heir, wouldn't she want to support him?
I doubt that.
her heritage is a nice excuse but I'd say the basis of her claim is power and conquest.

as a sidnote, I read Fire and Blood recently and am rewatching season 4 at the moment where Dany discusses with her advisors if she should invade westeros now, because Tommen is a newly crowned and weak king.
It's strange to me that no one says they should wait for the Dragons to grow, since that was what led Aegon the Conqueror to victory, he had very few soldiers.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
She fucking hates. Have you not read a single interview in the past year, especially the newest ones from this week?

  • D&D didnt tell her upfront about her characters fate. She found out 3 days before filming started when she got the scripts.
  • In her own words, she walked around London for 5 hours until she got blisters on her feet, just trying to wrap her head around what happens to Daenerys. She couldn't believe what they were going to do to her.
  • It made her extremely paranoid and insecure. She would randly ask family and frieds if they thought Daenerys was a good person.
  • She had to keep reminding herself that it was going to be the character people would be angry with and not her.
  • A year ago in an interview she said that it "fucked her up" that the last thing people would remember about Daenerys for would leave a bad taste in their mouths.
  • Daenerys gave her strength during her medical issues and she always viewed her as a strong role model for women.
  • She hasnt been able to spin the heel turn and flat out said she stands by her and thinks she's still a good person.
  • She's admitted that she's not happy but she's learned that you have to always accept the script. It's part of being an actor.

Emilia is NOT going to publicly flat out say she hates it, she still wants to work in showbiz and not get blacklisted. But you can easily read between the lines and know she does. Giving Jon and Dany a happy ending, you know the two biggest and most popular characters, would've helped with the backlash. They gave literally EVERYONE else a Disney ending ( Fucking Bronn!!!!). The people that no one gives a shit about.
Getting "Mark Hamill hates TLJ" vibes here...
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
I liked it, but I think it tosses Jon's true heritage to the side like D&D's ending. I always expected it to be this earth-shattering revelation for Jon, Dany, the Starks etc. Like, I wouldn't expect Dany to just say "you're free to be whoever you want after I die," I would've thought she'd support his claim to the throne and maybe tell him that he has the Unsullied, Dothraki, and Drogon if he wants it.

I struggled with how best to integrate Jon's heritage into the plot and I'm not 100% satisfied with it either. But I think that some people aren't being entirely fair about Jon. People are pointing out that Dany being the beautiful fantasy heroine who saves the day and sits on the throne is too cliche for GRRM, and I agree, but then they turn around and want Jon to be the bold, strong fantasy hero with the famous parents and the supernatural chosen one who saves the world. That's not happening either.

Jon is a good, noble man with a strong claim to the throne who would be a good ruler, and he will never sit on it. That's the tragedy of his character arc. If you want, you can add in some scenes in season 7 episode 7/season 8 episode 1 where Dany is viciously opposed to the idea of Jon being king, which creates some conflict between them, and ultimately this is resolved when she abandons the throne to go help fight the White Walkers at the end.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,326
So I was rewatching Troy(2004) last night for the first time since release,
a movie with over the top violence, loads of buildup, characters that weren't really significant despite their appearance and a disappointing ending...
I couldn't help this weird GoT vibe it kept giving me.

Then the ending credits
David Benioff

giphy.gif


Sean-in-Troy-sean-bean-10313463-853-480.jpg

14a4a3e48c315cc2cad893e9c053875b.jpg

172r9.jpg
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
I struggled with how best to integrate Jon's heritage into the plot and I'm not 100% satisfied with it either. But I think that some people aren't being entirely fair about Jon. People are pointing out that Dany being the beautiful fantasy heroine who saves the day and sits on the throne is too cliche for GRRM, and I agree, but then they turn around and want Jon to be the bold, strong fantasy hero with the famous parents and the supernatural chosen one who saves the world. That's not happening either.
I mean, neither happen in the actual series? Both of them were a red herring.
 

plié

Alt account
Banned
Jan 10, 2019
1,613
So I was rewatching Troy(2004) last night for the first time since release,
a movie with over the top violence, loads of buildup, characters that weren't really significant despite their appearance and a disappointing ending...
I couldn't help this weird GoT vibe it kept giving me.

Then the ending credits
David Benioff

giphy.gif
I didn't know this.

I loved troy so much when it was released. Probably my favourite "historical" piece, but I also loved GOT as a whole.
 

Hydrus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,298
Getting "Mark Hamill hates TLJ" vibes here...
"I cried," Clarke says. "And I went for a walk. I walked out of the house and took my keys and phone and walked back with blisters on my feet. I didn't come back for five hours. I'm like, 'How am I going to do this?'"
Two days later, Clarke was on a plane to Belfast for the final season table read.


Yet Clarke also had another, more personal reaction to Dany's meltdown. "I have my own feelings [about the storyline] and it's peppered with my feelings about myself," she admits. "It's gotten to that point now where you read [comments about] the character you [have to remind yourself], 'They're not talking about you, Emilia, they're talking about the character."

Like many actors who have played the same role for a long time, Clarke identifies with her character and has put much of herself into the role. She believes in Daenerys' confidence, idealism and past acts of compassion. As the actress wrote in a New Yorker essay in March, she played the Breaker of Chains through some life-threatening personal hardships, secretly enduring two brain aneurysms during her early years on the show. "You go on set and play a badass and you walk through fire and that became the thing that saved me from considering my own mortality," she wrote. Clarke has drawn strength from Daenerys and infused Daenerys with her strength.

"I genuinely did this, and it's embarrassing and I'm going to admit it to you," Clarke says. "I called my mom and—" Clarke shifts into a tearful voice to perform the conversation as she reenacts the call: "I read the scripts and I don't want to tell you what happens but can you just talk me off this ledge? It really messed me up.' And then I asked my mom and brother really weird questions. They were like: 'What are you asking us this for? What do you mean do I think Daenerys is a good person? Why are you asking us that question? Why do you care what people think of Daenerys? Are you okay?'"


"And I'm all: 'I'm fine! … But is there anything Daenerys could do that would make you hate her?'"

There's one last thing she wants you to know.


"But having said all of the things I've just said…" Clarke says. "I stand by Daenerys. I stand by her! I can't not."


Emilia Clarke seemed to hint that Daenerys Targaryen's last scene will almost certainly be controversial. "It f—ed me up," she said of shooting her character's final on-screen moments. "Knowing that is going to be a lasting flavor in someone's mouth of what Daenerys is . . ."
 

Deleted member 36493

User requested account closure
Member
Dec 19, 2017
4,982
I struggled with how best to integrate Jon's heritage into the plot and I'm not 100% satisfied with it either. But I think that some people aren't being entirely fair about Jon. People are pointing out that Dany being the beautiful fantasy heroine who saves the day and sits on the throne is too cliche for GRRM, and I agree, but then they turn around and want Jon to be the bold, strong fantasy hero with the famous parents and the supernatural chosen one who saves the world. That's not happening either.

Jon is a good, noble man with a strong claim to the throne who would be a good ruler, and he will never sit on it. That's the tragedy of his character arc. If you want, you can add in some scenes in season 7 episode 7/season 8 episode 1 where Dany is viciously opposed to the idea of Jon being king, which creates some conflict between them, and ultimately this is resolved when she abandons the throne to go help fight the White Walkers at the end.
See -- my tragedy for Jon would have been that he has all of the makings of a great ruler (nobility, heritage, liked by the people etc.) but he actually turns out to be a crap ruler. People quickly realize that he's just a war hero -- not someone that you'd want governing. He doesn't understand the intricacies of each of the Kingdoms, their cultures and ways of life. He ends up being the equivalent of Robert Baratheon, someone who (as Tywin said) "believes winning and ruling are the same thing." The plot of the show has then come full circle.

I actually wrote an idea for a follow-up to Game of Thrones that was based on this thought. Quoting here:

My premise for a follow up would be a 1 season mini-series (6-8 episodes) set long after the events of the original, something along the lines of 50-60 years. The only returning character is Jon, all other characters are either only mentioned by name, or alluded to in conversation. The scope of the show would be very narrow, focusing on Jon's struggles as the leader of the free folk. As it turns out, he didn't make a good ruler after all. He's passionate, but not wise. And his morals constantly conflict with the free folk's way of life. There aren't many free folk left after a disagreement between Jon and Tormund results in a "civil war" of some sort.

The plot would revolve around the return of Winter (not the WWs, just Winter). Old Jon's goal is to bring the free folk South, with the issue being that they are once again shunned by the rest of Westeros. Jon, who has outlived each of his siblings/cousins, has no allies. The Stark descendants and the rest of the North don't see him as one of them. He's just an old man looking for a home for what remains of his people.
 
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