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Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,345
Sam being the Archmaester is one of the dumbest things in the episode.

You mean grand maester. And yeah it's dumb, but maybe he can learn on the job. It's hard to think of what the grand maester could tell Bran that he couldn't just pop around through history to discover himself.
 

Owzers

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,442
The more I think about it the worse the small council scene gets. I actually think it's the worst scene in the entire season, disgusting itself as comic relief.

Tyrion in particular getting left out of the book is a direct slap to everything his character meant to the story. Everything he did, everything he meant, everything we were taught a out him, all of it thrown away for a cheap snicker.
Ask them in ten years if the joke was the right thing to do.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Man, the more I think about the "conference room" scene the more bizarre it seems.

Honestly I woudl have preferred almost anything. The 7 kingdoms following Sansa's lead and splitting up would have made more sense: Something Yara and Sansa both wanted.

I thought this is what we were gunna get. The realization that one ruler over all or almost all isn't the way things should be.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,484
Dallas, TX
True on every point.

And it makes the small council scene all the worse because you left the election with all these obvious points of tension, but we're all just going to joke around and give jobs to Bronn rather than try to stave off any of these looming crises. Like hey Davos, you've been good to us, so here's a retirement check because we need to give Yara the boat job because she's either building boats for us or against us. And someone find some jobs for Edmure and Lord Royce fast before they jump ship to Sansa.

The more I think about it the worse the small council scene gets. I actually think it's the worst scene in the entire season, disgusting itself as comic relief.

Tyrion in particular getting left out of the book is a direct slap to everything his character meant to the story. Everything he did, everything he meant, everything we were taught a out him, all of it thrown away for a cheap snicker.

I don't think that was purely a snicker line. I think it's 100% possible that Tyrion ending up as hero of the story written out of history has always been GRRM's plan there. ASoIaF has always been interested in the historiography of its world, and Tyrion getting written out because his story is inconvenient to the official narrative is fitting with that.

Not in the show. TER in the show was over 1,000 so it's show canon that Bran can live that long now

Obviously this'll never be answered, but my assumption is that his long life required being plugged into the tree and possibly some amount of work from this Children of the Forest as well. I'd think Bran has a normal lifespan without those things.
 

Solo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,744
Can we all agree that Ramin Djawadi was the MVP of the entirety of Game of Thrones? The man built a body of memorable work, themes and motifs that is up there with Howard Shore's work on LotR. Legendary stuff.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,053
Goes to show you how far reaching the impact of this show really was. I think if HBO realized that, they might have taken more care of ending the series in a non-rushed manner and let someone else finish the show properly instead of just trusting D&D.

Firing the showrunners to prolong a show doesn't work. Like, ever. It is usually meet with a massive loss in quality.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Can we all agree that Ramin Djawadi was the MVP of the entirety of Game of Thrones? The man built a body of memorable work, themes and motifs that is up there with Howard Shore's work on LotR. Legendary stuff.
Nah, I'm gunna go ahead and go a step further. What Djawadi did for GoT is what JW did for SW, straight up.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,345
Goes to show you how far reaching the impact of this show really was. I think if HBO realized that, they might have taken more care of ending the series in a non-rushed manner and let someone else finish the show properly instead of just trusting D&D.


Just glad Sansa got some props. She was one of my least favorite characters and became one of the strongest. But the showrunners can gtfo with that little bird abuse builds character exchange with the Hound.
 

DonaldKimball

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,413
I found this on freefolk, it's a fanmade script from Alice Shipwise written a year ago. Apparently an actual screenwriter. There are a lot of similarities with the actual script.

I only read through the first few episodes but holy fuck, the introduction in Winterfell is so much better it's not even funny. People actually talk to each other in a meaningful way. The dialogue is a little rough but I enjoyed reading it.

https://www.aliceshipwise.com/gameofthrones/archive

I liked how Jon makes an effort to get the northeners to accept Dany.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
The stuff up to that wasn't too great either aside from the visuals.

Grey Worm teleporting to the top of the stairs, Jon needing to be convinced that he wouldn't have genocide-ed a city and that it served no purpose, Arya suddenly coming back into KL for no reason, Davos disappearing, the guards taking Jon's weapon away and letting him be in the cell alone unsupervised and no guards around Dany that saw fit to take his weapon away.
 

Sweeney Swift

User Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,743
#IStandWithTaylor
Most people don't even know the full story behind his death in the show. Ian McElhinney was a known fan of the books and knew that his character wouldn't die that early into the show.

He wrote a letter to D&D explaining how it doesn't make any sense but they still killed him off.

Later at convention D&D mentioned an actor sending them a letter about their decision to kill off his character and said "it made us want to kill him off even more"

My instincts are to say "yikes" and "sounds very on-brand with those two"
 

ProfessorLobo

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,523

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
The stuff up to that wasn't too great either aside from the visuals.

Grey Worm teleporting to the top of the stairs, Jon needing to be convinced that he wouldn't have genocide-ed a city and that it served no purpose, Arya suddenly coming back into KL for no reason, Davos disappearing, the guards taking Jon's weapon away and letting him be in the cell alone unsupervised and no guards around Dany that saw fit to take his weapon away.
It was flawed, no doubt, and still suffered from some of the same issues later seasons did. But the main developments were still awesome, classic GoT and immediately iconic. I was 100% on board despite the flaws until the 2nd half.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Also prolonging the show implies artifically extending it past its natural conclusion instead of using the same tried and true pacing of the previous seasons to effectively end the series at the same exact point.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,484
Dallas, TX
It was flawed, no doubt, and still suffered from some of the same issues later seasons did. But the main developments were still awesome, classic GoT and pretty iconic. I was 100% on board despite the flaws until the 2nd half.

The first half of the episode was flawed in the way seasons 7 and 8 have been consistently flawed. The second half was an all-new level of poorly thought out. Everything before that was rushing to conclusions that weren't really earned, but if you sat down and really thought through them you could piece together a story for it that made sense. The election scene is just irredeemable.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
The first half of the episode was flawed in the way seasons 7 and 8 have been consistently flawed. The second half was an all-new level of poorly thought out. Everything before that was rushing to conclusions that weren't really earned, but if you sat down and really thought through them you could piece together a story for it that made sense. The election scene is just irredeemable.
Yup completely agreed. That scene is the worst in GoT history, in terms of logic/sense. I don't normally pine over this kind of stuff but even for someone who is willing to brush over inconsistencies as long as the characters are working.. it is absolutely irredeemable.
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
ggu1blignjz21.jpg


Good luck, Star Wars fans!
 

Creamium

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,692
Belgium
When the remaining Starks stood on that pier and said their goodbyes, it hit home how rushed this season felt. All of those interactions should've been memorable moments that hit hard, but they did nothing for me. Even Jon saying goodbye to Arya, which should be an easy homerun, felt kinda hollow to me. There's so much development missing that these pivotal scenes come out of nowhere and do nothing. This truly is 'scene missing: the season'
 

Blackflag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,968
I thought the last episode was fine and I was ok with how it wrapped up. My biggest issues are the 2 preceeding episodes. How dany's turn was handled and the night king dying so easily.

I assume that this will all be fleshed out and make more sense in the books but. I'm fine being done. I read the first 4 books well before the series started and just don't care anymore. I'll read book chapter synopsis or something.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,199
I'm really surprised that so many people aren't getting this. People are frequently written out of history. My generation learned about Florence Nightingale at school, but only in relation to her legendary status on the battlefields of Crimea. It took me decades to catch up with her seminal work in epidemiology and data representation, and her reforms of nursing, which changed the practice of public hygiene forever. She was far more than just "the lady with the lamp."
Meera being written out of the history of the war of the five kings makes sense. She is an unsung hero that no one will remember in history:

Same with people like Gilly, Podrick, and Tormund.

It would be egregious, but you could even see someone like Seleyse not being mentioned in a history of the war, if the historian focused on Stannis and his red priestess and didn't feel the need to name who his queen was.

But Tyrion is a CENTRAL figure to the entire war. You cannot tell the story - you literally can't describe the sequence of events - without once mentioning his name. It's impossible.

How do you even describe the start of the war without mentioning that Cat abducted the queens brother to charge him with murder which in turn caused the kingslayer to attack the hand of the king, murder his men, and cripple him for life?

How do they mention the death of Tywin Lannister without mentioning that he was killed by his son, the imp?

How do they talk about princess Myrcella being poisoned in Dorne without noting the hand of the king that sent her there.

How do they mention the death of the king at his own wedding without noting who was charged with the murder? How do they mention the Dornish prince being killed during a trial by combat without mentioning what the trial was even about?

How do you talk about Sansa Stark being married off without mentioning that she was first married to the Lannisters?

How do they mention the invading Danerys Targaryen without once noting who her hand was?

Tyrion is one of the most popular people in all of Westeros, even before he did anything notable. Arya was dying to see "the imp" in the first episode. Cat knew of his reputation before she had even met him. Oberyn described in season 4 that everyone was interested to see him when he was just a baby because he is perceived as this monstrosity. He is basically a Westerosi celebrity, infamous and hated.

But most important, he is directly tied to the story of the war.

Nothing about this "you aren't mentioned in a 5000 page book about this ten year period of war" makes a lick of sense. It was only put in there for a joke. There is nothing about it that rings true or acts as a parallel to history.
 
Last edited:

Pein

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,221
NYC
They kinda forgot they had no balls.
Another thing that is sticking with me, and was true before this episode but reaffirms what a lot of us were arguing prior to Dany going full mad, was the use of civilians as nothing but a plot device to turn Dany insane. The show never cared at all about them or their well being until they needed us to care about them to believe Dany was evil, and then as soon as Danny is dispatched with they no longer matter again, no mention of how theyre taking to being in an occupied city, or how they'll take to someone with no right to the throne, if this new ruler and his council are fair and just for them, etc. They were nothing but a plot device to make Dany mad and its just as infuriating now as it was prior to the last two episodes when characters kept bringing them up to stop Dany from going to KL. Hell even Sansa outright threatened greyworm of a war if he harmed jon which would put her right in Dany's shoes that everyone chastized her for (granted I doubt Sansa would murder thousands of innocents but their lives would be lost if a war came to their occupied city, just as it would in any invasion).



The north storyline has been awful since Sansa got there and started to make everything into conflict for literally no reason, which is really the writers making her make conflict out of nothing.
the north is literally a garbage ass region half the time but the show runners want you to feel like they're the most noble kingdom. D&D wanted a another crowning scene where they start ho
AOC's and Elizabeth Warren's thoughts on GOT's finale:

team Sansa? gross.

Not gonna vote for warren now.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Meera being written out of the history of the war of the five kings makes sense. She is an unsung hero that no one will remember in history:

Same with people like Gilly, Podrick, and Tormund.

It would be egregious, but you could even see someone like Seleyse not being mentioned in a history of the war, if the historian focused on Stannis and his red priestess and didn't feel the need to name who his queen was.

But Tyrion is a CENTRAL figure to the entire war. You cannot tell the story - you literally can't describe the sequence of events - without once mentioning his name. It's impossible.

How do you even describe the start of the war without mentioning that Cat abducted the queens brother to charge him with murder which in turn caused the kingslayer to attack the hand of the king, murder his men, and cripple him for life?

How do they mention the death of Tywin Lannister without mentioning that he was killed by his son, the imp?

How do they talk about princess Myrcella being poisoned in Dorne without noting the hand of the king that sent her there.

How do they mention the death of the king at his own wedding without noting who was charged with the murder? How do they mention the Dornish prince being killed during a trial by combat without mentioning what the trial was even about?

How do you talk about Sansa Stark being married off without mentioning that she was first married to the Lannisters?

How do they mention the invading Danerys Targaryen without once noting who her hand was?

Tyrion is one of the most popular people in all of Westeros, even before he did anything notable. Arya was dying to see "the imp" in the first episode. Cat knew of his reputation before she had even met him. Oberyn described in season 4 that everyone was interested to see him when he was just a baby because he is perceived as this monstrosity. He is basically a Westerosi celebrity, infamous and hated.

But most important, he is directly tied to the story of the war.

Nothing about this "you aren't mentioned in a 5000 page book about this ten year period of war" makes a lick of sense. It was only put in there for a joke. There is nothing about it that rings true or acts as a parallel to history.
A burn hotter than a Shireen BBQ.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,199
I don't think that was purely a snicker line. I think it's 100% possible that Tyrion ending up as hero of the story written out of history has always been GRRM's plan there. ASoIaF has always been interested in the historiography of its world, and Tyrion getting written out because his story is inconvenient to the official narrative is fitting with that.

His heroic deeds or intentions being written out, sure. Him not being mentioned in the history books at all, even as the villain of the story, makes no sense.
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
Wasn't Tyrion de facto Lord of the Lannisters? So he had a saying when he was brought there, since from the eyes of the Westerosi Lords, he was a Lord.

It's basically just another example of the result not being the issue, but the way we got there. If he was brought there as a lord, they should've stated that better. The fack that Greyworm claims he has no right to speak kind of throws us off of that trail.
 

SArcher

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,669
They really said that? LOL

Yup.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/03/04/game-of-thrones-finale-showrunners/

We want people to love it," Weiss said. "It matters a lot to us. "We've spent 11 years doing this. We also know no matter what we do, even if it's the optimal version, that a certain number of people will hate the best of all possible versions. There is no version where everybody says, 'I have to admit, I agree with every other person on the planet that this is the perfect way to do this' — that's an impossible reality that doesn't exist. I'm hoping for the Breaking Bad [finale] argument where it's like, 'Is that an A or an A+?'"

Added Benioff: "From the beginning we've talked about how the show would end. A good story isn't a good story if you have a bad ending. Of course we worry."
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
Cross-posting some fanfic I outlined (Dany-centered, because I came from that thread):

Just as a book reader, I wish Daenerys had gotten a better end.

It would have been neat to have seen what I call a "mongols win" ending, where yes, the battle for King's Landing and Westeros is horrific, and in the end Dany decides that breaking the circle requires more than the right person sitting in the Iron Throne. She destroys it willfully, pulls down the walls of the city, the walls of all the cities, subjects Westeros to a Dothraki system of tribute and "kurultai", raises the lowborn houses to high and destroys the old feudal system, becomes Khatun of the new Westeros Khaganate, establishes great herds of horses and cattle on the plains of southern Westeros where the Dothraki and Unsullied can live after their own fashions, she throws up a Yurt with a red door, and will have her successor (be they a Khagan or Khatun of her own blood or not) selected by all the families of westeros at the next kurultai. Sam gets his wish of democracy... but it's a Mongol democracy. Wheel broken.