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Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
I'm kinda assuming that the whole thing is a series of massive bloodbaths and ice zombies and barbecues, with the survivors left slowly rebuilding a society from the ruins. Maybe seasons 5-8 are nothing like that, maybe it was all a hero's quest that everybody expected to end with ewoks dancing around and R2D2 putting on disco light shows for the kids, in which case that scene might fall flat.

So take it from someone who's seen everything. The scene isn't abhorrent. It's just tone deaf. It kinda goes "oh look, everything's back to normal, and Bronn's here! He still likes brothels. Oh, Bronn!". But that joke doesn't subvert anyone's expectations. No one was expecting it.
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
She changes after she returns from the Dothraki grass sea precisely because she is sick of seeing people use her mercy against her. Even in the books, once the Dothrakis come to her, she is thinking about it all and concludes with "Fire and blood!"

I suggest watching the succession scene from s7 with Tyrion at Dragonstone. She is literally saying she must rule with fear and commit mass murder as others have to win her war.

The show didn't make it obvious enough how much she changed upon returning to Mereen. But that isn't the real problem; the real problem is we have no reason to believe people would believe Jon is the true heir, nor care, nor support Cersei over Dany especially since she manages to take the city without killing civilians. THAT was the real mistake the writers made that ruined up her character.

I very much agree. There are nuances there. A big point for a long time was "will Tyrion be able to contain Daenarys?". The entire KL episode was set up so that it was Cercei's usage of people, by allowing them into the Red Keep, that made it so that Dany would have to kill lots of innocent people if she was to attack the Red Keep. If they had gone with that, they would've had a very nuanced thing to discuss further. Oh no, Dany you killed tens of thousands of innocent! Then Dany can be all "Cercei murdered them. She put them there. If she hadn't, they wouldn't have died!", then you can have a meaningful ethical discussion, between the utilitarian Daenarys and the deontologist Jon Snow. Dany believes the end justify the means. Do the others agree? Do they accept her as queen? Maybe they wrongfully assume she's gone mad, but she's still just calculated as she's always been.

But here we are. She just flew off the handle and killed literally everyone for no fucking reason. IT MAKES NO GOD DAMN SENSE.

Just imagine the outcry and the discussions we'd be having. Dany could still be a great powerful female character, but her intentions were misunderstood. Tyrion would be all "I told you not to do this! Those innocent people didn't have to die!" and Dany could argue that they did, because Cercei tried to win by using her mercy against her. Now the entire city is just rubble, and so is the ethical dilemma and moral grey zones.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,093
Or maybe killing slavers and rapists isn't the same as civilians.

Since you're in season 4 did you notice all of her attempts to make sure 0 civilians are harmed to the point where she chains up her dragons after they harmed 1 innocent.

HBO's Confederate where the biggest villain will be this guy:

s-l640.jpg


"The Tyranny of William Tecumseh Sherman as Told by the Southern Republic of the United States"
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,200
I very much agree. There are nuances there. A big point for a long time was "will Tyrion be able to contain Daenarys?". The entire KL episode was set up so that it was Cercei's usage of people, by allowing them into the Red Keep, that made it so that Dany would have to kill lots of innocent people if she was to attack the Red Keep. If they had gone with that, they would've had a very nuanced thing to discuss further. Oh no, Dany you killed tens of thousands of innocent! Then Dany can be all "Cercei murdered them. She put them there. If she hadn't, they wouldn't have died!", then you can have a meaningful ethical discussion, between the utilitarian Daenarys and the deontologist Jon Snow. Dany believes the end justify the means. Do the others agree? Do they accept her as queen? Maybe they wrongfully assume she's gone mad, but she's still just calculated as she's always been.

But here we are. She just flew off the handle and killed literally everyone for no fucking reason. IT MAKES NO GOD DAMN SENSE.
Exactly.

It would have been much more interesting and compelling to discuss Dany burning the red keep and killing thousands, perhaps even killing more by accidentally setting off the wildfire.

But then they wouldn't be able to have the Darth Dany scene where she changes into black and becomes a Sith Lord complete with evil demon wing imagery.

Choosing to strip her decision of all of the nuance just to make it simplistic good vs evil plot point was just pathetic.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
Or maybe killing slavers and rapists isn't the same as civilians.

Since you're in season 4 did you notice all of her attempts to make sure 0 civilians are harmed to the point where she chains up her dragons after they harmed 1 innocent.

Not everybody who dies in Mereen is guilty. I get it, war is hell. But then she comes along and char broils another city into submission. The same city whose rulers have without exception been trying to assassinate her since Season 1. The capital of Westeros.

People say she went mad and bad in 120 minutes? Oh no. The Daenerys fandom has completely misread her. Audiences have been misled by this dewy eyed pretty, but she was never the person you thought she was.
 

steejee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,613
Because of Arya's arc, I have retroactively come to abhor the end of The Many Faced God arc. It was so interesting. Then she just decided to stop, but retain all the powers. Bleh.

One of the endings I thought might happen would be for Dany to return to Braavos to complete her Faceless Man training. That would have made Jaqen letting her leave make a lot more sense - instead of it being "Well why did he let her go after killing the Waif and let her keep a bunch of Faceless Man powers and faces?' you'd have a setup where Jaqen understands she needed to be left to conclude her life as Arya before she could become No One. A final shedding of the old life.

For me that would have retroactively improved that arc, perhaps even moreso if we saw the Waif at the House of Black and White, still alive. I think it would also have made sense for the Faceless Men - I imagine many of their candidates have a lot of baggage, and Jaqen before ever giving her the coin would know that her nobility would lead to inner conflict.

Come to think of it we got absolutely nothing from Essos in S7 or S8, hardly even a reference. I kept waiting for the Lord of Light fanatics or Daario to show up and be like "Hey, remember us? Your very loyal subjects across the sea? We heard you could use a hand.", but nope.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
That still doesn't make any sense why she targeted the civilians and structures instead of the actual red keep.

Batman is a vigilante too but I wasn't surprised to see him not want to nuke the city in TDKR or poison it in Batman Begins.
I'm very curious if this is a pure writing issue or (like the Dragon in E4) it's a writing issue exacerbated by bad editing.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
So take it from someone who's seen everything. The scene isn't abhorrent. It's just tone deaf. It kinda goes "oh look, everything's back to normal, and Bronn's here! He still likes brothels. Oh, Bronn!". But that joke doesn't subvert anyone's expectations. No one was expecting it.

Your two final sentences seem to contradict one another. Do you know what subvert means?
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Not everybody who dies in Mereen is guilty. I get it, war is hell. But then she comes along and char broils another city into submission. The same city whose rulers have without exception been trying to assassinate her since Season 1. The capital of Westeros.

People say she went mad and bad in 120 minutes? Oh no. The Daenerys fandom has completely misread her. Audiences have been misled by this dewy eyed pretty, but she was never the person you thought she was.
The issue is her turn was absurd. Other people have discussed it as well so I won't go into much detail but yeah. They made her dragon hitler and then killed dragon hitler in 2 episodes.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,093
Not everybody who dies in Mereen is guilty. I get it, war is hell. But then she comes along and char broils another city into submission. The same city whose rulers have without exception been trying to assassinate her since Season 1. The capital of Westeros.

People say she went mad and bad in 120 minutes? Oh no. The Daenerys fandom has completely misread her. Audiences have been misled by this dewy eyed pretty, but she was never the person you thought she was.

Were you a former slaver that only gave up your vile practice because you were forced to? Then come on down to the get fucked sweepstakes. As I've said multiple times, each and every one of them deserved to have been executed.
 

Fuzzy

Completely non-threatening
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,130
Toronto
Do people really think the 7/8 drop is as big as the quality drops in Dexter S5, West Wing S5, Supernatural S6, or Neo Scrubs?

Replacing the showrunner of a successful show doesn't work.
No because 7 wasn't good either. Most people ignored a lot of the problems because they still had hope it would get better.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Were you a former slaver that only gave up your vile practice because you were forced to? Then come on down to the get fucked sweepstakes. As I've said multiple times, each and every one of them deserved to have been executed.
Yep all of this. The fact we have to argue whether it was justified to kill slave owners at all is telling.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
I'm very curious if this is a pure writing issue or (like the Dragon in E4) it's a writing issue exacerbated by bad editing.
Considering there were multiple shots from Cersei that showed Dany just going to town on the civilians I'm gonna assume the former.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Yep all of this. The fact we have to argue whether it was justified to kill slave owners at all is telling.
This is where the show botching Meereen really hurts. Because S1->S4 Dany? Isn't really doing anything that's unethical in context.

Meereen is supposed to be the point where her ethics and ambition come into conflict- she has to pick being a ruler for the people (rule Meereen, make compromises with the local culture) or ambition (take what is mine) and the show completely whiffed on portraying that.

Between (f)Aegon's removal, Arya's warging being taken out, and Dany's character development being tanked, I totally get why GRRM wasn't writing scripts anymore with S5 onward. They removed a whole chunk of things super important to making the endgame play out properly.
 

Corky

Alt account
Banned
Dec 5, 2018
2,479
It's almost like danys slow and realistic descent from killing evil slave owners to be becoming willing to accept and inflict collateral damage is totally absent from the show. She goes from angelic white saviour to IGNORING HER ENEMIES AND TARGETING INNOCENTS FOR ITS OWN SAKE.

She makes no sense in the show at all.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
Another point on people using Dany's mercy against her: in both the books and the show, the shepherd who comes to her with the burned body of his daughter, it COULD be a trick. The sons of the Harpy in the books are more paranoia-inducing than in the show, but essentially it could have been a trick. And even if it wasn't, Dany can still wonder if it was, because they really go out of their way to try and use her affection for the people against herself. It's precisely what leads her to realize that she has to "remember who she was made to be", as Quaithe keeps telling her in her head, culminating in her accepting the idea of resorting to fire and blood to rule, because keeping the affection she has for the people would seemingly doom her for her enemies' own sake.

By the end of ADWD, Mereen is plagued and Dany had been sending people out to save people regardless. I doubt she will continue along that approach when she returns. Wouldn't surprise me she would outright burn those sick outside to protect the rest of the city.

Exactly.

It would have been much more interesting and compelling to discuss Dany burning the red keep and killing thousands, perhaps even killing more by accidentally setting off the wildfire.

But then they wouldn't be able to have the Darth Dany scene where she changes into black and becomes a Sith Lord complete with evil demon wing imagery.

Choosing to strip her decision of all of the nuance just to make it simplistic good vs evil plot point was just pathetic.

They could have actually done all that. Dany wouldn't necessarily be glad she killed innocents, but would be confident it was necessary. Her dressing in black, Drogon behind her, it still all works out. Of course, you wouldn't have had the whole city burned, unless accidental wild-fire did so, and even that would still work as Dany could still blame Cersei for it, say she had booby trapped the city and the blood is on her hands.

It's sad how a little tweak would have allowed them to hit the same beats, but not have the audience they took a dumb or lazy road to it.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
I love that they literally never mention Dany again after they kill her. One of two main characters throughout the entire show goes full dragon hitler, killed, and never mentioned again in an episode and a half.
 

Doomsayer

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,621
I love that they literally never mention Dany again after they kill her. One of two main characters throughout the entire show goes full dragon hitler, killed, and never mentioned again in an episode and a half.

Or how they just immediately skip to 3 weeks after she is killed so they don't have to address the Dothraki or Unsullied learning about it and capturing Jon.

Seriously, fuck that last episode so much.
 

Corky

Alt account
Banned
Dec 5, 2018
2,479
Or how they just immediately skip to 3 weeks after she is killed so they don't have to address the Dothraki or Unsullied learning about it and capturing Jon.

Seriously, fuck that last episode so much.
hahah, it's so bad. Literally skipped over the stuff with the most dramatic potential
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Or how they just immediately skip to 3 weeks after she is killed so they don't have to address the Dothraki or Unsullied learning about it and capturing Jon.

Seriously, fuck that last episode so much.
Its literally the biggest event maybe ever in this story and they just skip it and ignore it outright. And then let everyone live a happily ever after. The more it sits with me the more awful I realize it was.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Another point on people using Dany's mercy against her: in both the books and the show, the shepherd who comes to her with the burned body of his daughter, it COULD be a trick. The sons of the Harpy in the books are more paranoia-inducing than in the show, but essentially it could have been a trick. And even if it wasn't, Dany can still wonder if it was, because they really go out of their way to try and use her affection for the people against herself. It's precisely what leads her to realize that she has to "remember who she was made to be", as Quaithe keeps telling her in her head, culminating in her accepting the idea of resorting to fire and blood to rule, because keeping the affection she has for the people would seemingly doom her for her enemies' own sake.

By the end of ADWD, Mereen is plagued and Dany had been sending people out to save people regardless. I doubt she will continue along that approach when she returns. Wouldn't surprise me she would outright burn those sick outside to protect the rest of the city.
If she pulls an Arthas I'll be shocked they didn't include it, because it's the type of morally grey baby step that's easy to translate in the absence of internal monologue.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
Also about Bran, note how Bloodraven/TER wasn't a damn robot.



He clearly has emotions, especially once they switch to Max Von Sydow. He has worry and a sense of sadness to his voice too.

Also, Isaac Hempstead was really good playing Bran before he became the TER, especially in the first season. He was very much like in the books too, the same sort of innocent but selfish attitude that sets him up perfectly to be someone who would consciously use others once he would mature. But of course we're not in his head like in the books so it's more subtle.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,093
Yep all of this. The fact we have to argue whether it was justified to kill slave owners at all is telling.

Even more bewildering when you consider that everyone's favourite Stark (Ned) wanted to execute Jorah for selling poachers to slavers. So I guess being a Stark changes the equation for people lol. Dany should have been born a Stark, that way even putting all of KL to the sword would be handwaved away.

"You see she was justified because all those people were cheering when they executed Ned. Totally deserved!"
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,483
I think at least from a script point of view, episode 6 seems to be written with the context that Dany just went after the Red Keep rather than the whole city. Dany even says something about them dying because of Cersei, which Jon doesn't challenge. It's almost like they decided to up the ante for episode 5 but didn't change episode 6 from its first draft.

That whole small council scene is super fucking weird considering the amount of death and destruction shown in the last two episodes. I just imagine the camera pulling out from this cluster idiots (plus Davos and Brienne) to a devastated RedKeep, followed by a dead, empty city full of the shells of burnt out buildings while they talk about building boats or brothels.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
So, I think in the broad strokes, the ending is pretty ok, but Christ they did less than nothing to sell you on the wisdom of electing Bran king. People who have never met him before acquiesce to him with absolutely no reason to. His first act as King is to give away half the kingdom, and no one seems concerned that that may be taken as weakness by our new crippled boy king, as the camera immediately pans to Yara and the Prince of Dorne plotting their own independence. So two potential rebellions brewing. No one seems concerned that if push came to shove, the Vale and Riverlands probably side with Sansa in any conflict, who you've just empowered as an independent queen. No one seems concerned about Bronn "I'd shoot anyone for a dollar" of the Blackwater having personal access to our physically disabled king. Or that we've given him control of the treasury AND food supply. Bronn. A dude who would absolutely let you all starve to get to ring more money out of you. And that we can't get shit done in our first, understaffed small council meeting, and that our warg King seems mostly concerned with locating a dragon. Nothing there convinced me that this all doesn't fall apart within months.

Once Bran gets Drogon on his side, he has all the firepower that he needs
 

Doomsayer

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,621
Its literally the biggest event maybe ever in this story and they just skip it and ignore it outright. And then let everyone live a happily ever after. The more it sits with me the more awful I realize it was.

Or my personal favorite: No one mentioned the fact that Jon is a Targaryen to the council? Not Tyrion, not Sansa, Not Arya, not Davos, not even fucking Bran.

Oh, I was also part of a GoT trivia game last night (team name: Get Rich or Die Tywin) and we lost because of some bullshit.

There was a bonus question asking to name all the 6 kingdoms and the people that represented them in the scene where they are picking a king.

So the guy said that Riverlands are called the Westerlands--which I believe they are in the book, but not the show. So we lost a point. The other was for The Reach we said Sam was there to represent but he said the answer was Bronn. I was just like what the fuck? Bronn wasn't even present at the time. It got me heated. Also made me hate that episode even more.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Also about Bran, note how Bloodraven/TER wasn't a damn robot.



He clearly has emotions, especially once they switch to Max Von Sydow. He has worry and a sense of sadness to his voice too.

Also, Isaac Hempstead was really good playing Bran before he became the TER, especially in the first season. He was very much like in the books too, the same sort of innocent by selfish attitude that sets him up perfectly to be someone who would consciously use others once he would mature. But of course we're not in his head like in the books so it's more subtle.

I have to assume that the direction called for Bran to act like he did which is just really puzzling. He can be changed by the experience without being an annoying twat who you can never get a straight answer out of.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
I think at least from a script point of view, episode 6 seems to be written with the context that Dany just went after the Red Keep rather than the whole city. Dany even says something about them dying because of Cersei, which Jon doesn't challenge. It's almost like they decided to up the ante for episode 5 but didn't change episode 6 from its first draft.

That whole small council scene is super fucking weird considering the amount of death and destruction shown in the last two episodes. I just imagine the camera pulling out from this cluster idiots (plus Davos and Brienne) to a devastated RedKeep, followed by a dead, empty city full of the shells of burnt out buildings while they talk about building boats or brothels.
Dany going for the Red keep, then going to help her men, then blowing the wildfire and not stopping, and then post-ex-facto going full Viserys and justifying it all would have at least salvaged the internal logic.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,200
Or my personal favorite: No one mentioned the fact that Jon is a Targaryen to the council? Not Tyrion, not Sansa, Not Arya, not Davos, not even fucking Bran.

Oh, I was also part of a GoT trivia game last night (team name: Get Rich or Die Tywin) and we lost because of some bullshit.

There was a bonus question asking to name all the 6 kingdoms and the people that represented them in the scene where they are picking a king.

So the guy said that Riverlands are called the Westerlands--which I believe they are in the book, but not the show. So we lost a point. The other was for The Reach we said Sam was there to represent but he said the answer was Bronn. I was just like what the fuck? Bronn wasn't even present at the time. It got me heated. Also made me hate that episode even more.
I think you got screwed.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,321
So, I think in the broad strokes, the ending is pretty ok, but Christ they did less than nothing to sell you on the wisdom of electing Bran king. People who have never met him before acquiesce to him with absolutely no reason to. His first act as King is to give away half the kingdom, and no one seems concerned that that may be taken as weakness by our new crippled boy king, as the camera immediately pans to Yara and the Prince of Dorne plotting their own independence. So two potential rebellions brewing. No one seems concerned that if push came to shove, the Vale and Riverlands probably side with Sansa in any conflict, who you've just empowered as an independent queen. No one seems concerned about Bronn "I'd shoot anyone for a dollar" of the Blackwater having personal access to our physically disabled king. Or that we've given him control of the treasury AND food supply. Bronn. A dude who would absolutely let you all starve to get to ring more money out of you. And that we can't get shit done in our first, understaffed small council meeting, and that our warg King seems mostly concerned with locating a dragon. Nothing there convinced me that this all doesn't fall apart within months.
Bronn as the master of coin is truly hilarious. Why not master of war?

wKUTUEI.jpg
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Once Bran gets Drogon on his side, he has all the firepower that he needs
I think this is why Arya has the prophecy putting her in King's Landing that they put in the show, but then she did nothing in the finale.

Drogon melting the throne makes no sense. Arya melting the throne does.
Bronn as the master of coin is truly hilarious. Why not master of war?
I think they gave him the position where he'd do the least possible damage.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Bronn as the master of coin is truly hilarious. Why not master of war?

wKUTUEI.jpg
He shouldn't even have been in the series after his last book apperance, he just kinda failed upward even more and made repetitive jokes.

Turned a likable fan favorite into... that.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
The issue is her turn was absurd. Other people have discussed it as well so I won't go into much detail but yeah. They made her dragon hitler and then killed dragon hitler in 2 episodes.

She was always Dragon Hitler. That's how she's written.
You misunderstood his sentence. You have to have expectations for those expectations to then be subverted.

There are a lot of people clearly expressing an opinion on this. They expected Tyrion to feature prominently in any history. Those are the expectations I'm talking about.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,200
She was always Dragon Hitler. That's how she's written.


There are a lot of people clearly expressing an opinion on this. They expected Tyrion to feature prominently in any history. Those are the expectations I'm talking about.

The only expectations being subverted there are expectations of writing that makes sense.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,483
Or my personal favorite: No one mentioned the fact that Jon is a Targaryen to the council? Not Tyrion, not Sansa, Not Arya, not Davos, not even fucking Bran.

Oh, I was also part of a GoT trivia game last night (team name: Get Rich or Die Tywin) and we lost because of some bullshit.

There was a bonus question asking to name all the 6 kingdoms and the people that represented them in the scene where they are picking a king.

So the guy said that Riverlands are called the Westerlands--which I believe they are in the book, but not the show. So we lost a point. The other was for The Reach we said Sam was there to represent but he said the answer was Bronn. I was just like what the fuck? Bronn wasn't even present at the time. It got me heated. Also made me hate that episode even more.
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-it-called-the-7-kingdoms-when-there-are-9-of-them
7 kingdoms, but technically 9 regions, including the crown lands, post-conquest. I guess we had:
Starks- North
Edmure - Riverlands
Robin - vale
Yara - Iron islands
Gendry - Stormlands
Sam - Reach
Tyrion - Westerlands
New prince - Dorne

I think this is why Arya has the prophecy putting her in King's Landing that they put in the show, but then she did nothing in the finale.
Not true. She got to tell Jon she knows a killer when she sees one.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Even more bewildering when you consider that everyone's favourite Stark (Ned) wanted to execute Jorah for selling poachers to slavers. So I guess being a Stark changes the equation for people lol. Dany should have been born a Stark, that way even putting all of KL to the sword would be handwaved away.

"You see she was justified because all those people were cheering when they executed Ned. Totally deserved!"
One of the first scenes in the entire show is Ned teaching the stark boys to uphold punishment by beheading a deserter. Shit cray

Or my personal favorite: No one mentioned the fact that Jon is a Targaryen to the council? Not Tyrion, not Sansa, Not Arya, not Davos, not even fucking Bran.

Oh, I was also part of a GoT trivia game last night (team name: Get Rich or Die Tywin) and we lost because of some bullshit.

There was a bonus question asking to name all the 6 kingdoms and the people that represented them in the scene where they are picking a king.

So the guy said that Riverlands are called the Westerlands--which I believe they are in the book, but not the show. So we lost a point. The other was for The Reach we said Sam was there to represent but he said the answer was Bronn. I was just like what the fuck? Bronn wasn't even present at the time. It got me heated. Also made me hate that episode even more.
Jons birthright was literally nothing. It was brought up as something that might create conflict and then they just didnt do anything with it.