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Game of Thrones S8 |OT3| My watch has ended. (FULL SPOILERS) (See Staff Post)

Oct 26, 2017
621
I really do not buy this perspective at all.

She has never went out of her way to kill innocents. Quite the opposite in fact.

She even delayed her quest to reclaim Westeros out of a desire to save more innocents.

She's just never been portrayed to be the kind of person who would indiscriminately slaughter people for no good reason.
She even locked her dragons in a cave, without advisement, after 1 innocent girl was burned to death.
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,487
Are we really debating the strength and physical properties of the fire from the dragon now and how it might impact bricks lol.. let's not overthink this

Also, how do we feel about Jon telling his secret to Arya/Sansa?
Calling a character stupid is imo the worst, laziest piece of criticism because 9 times out of 10 when people say this character is stupid, they're projecting their own hindsight + third-person omniscience onto a character who would naturally have neither. But having said that, Jon is just that stupid. He's honorable to the point of idiocy. He shouldn't have told Sansa, he shouldn't have told Dany in the first place, he shouldn't have told Cersei he pledged himself to Dany, and so on and so on. Jon is just a bad leader.

I think its more an issue of them not accurately showing the size of the armies in previous episodes rather than the actual numbers she has left.
This is a longstanding issue I have with the show, where we're constantly being how told this army has however many tens of thousands of soldiers, or that family has however many more tens of thousands. And naturally it's never going to line up with what we see on screen. But I wish they wouldn't keep framing it in the writing as these insane quantities of people or populations that just can't be represented as such. The only time it ever really worked for me was with there wights being estimated around 100k, and that's probably just because so much of The Long Night obfuscates their numbers with the dark that it's easier to get away with the army of the dead feeling like an endlessly large threat.
 
Aye, thank you!

If he does end up getting all-seeing powers, in particular ones which allow him to see or predict future outcomes to a tee, I'm sure interested if GRRM can write and use him in a fashion I find appealing. Show-Bran is obviously sidelined because D&D have enough troubles writing without including his powers.

That said, I dislike prophecies anyway, in part because it makes the world seem deterministic and easily readable, and ASOIAF is obviously filled to the brim with those.
If it helps, it's explicitly stated that there are multiple futures but some are more likely than others:

"Or you might have joined your strength to his to bring down the Lannisters," Davos protested. "Why not that? If she saw two futures, well . . . both cannot be true."

King Stannis pointed a finger. "There you err, Onion Knight. Some lights cast more than one shadow. Stand before the nightfire and you'll see for yourself. The flames shift and dance, never still. The shadows grow tall and short, and every man casts a dozen. Some are fainter than others, that's all. Well, men cast their shadows across the future as well. One shadow or many. Melisandre sees them all."
You can change the future like MMD did when she killed baby Rhaego who would've grown up to be Genghis Khan.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,972
She has been teetering between terrible person and benevolent savior the whole show. The bells was her moment to decide who she wanted to be. She decided to be the former, knowing people would never accept her as the latter. It's just that people weren't forced to come face to face with her brutality without room for rationalization before now, so it came as a shock. Before we were always given a more pleasant perspective to view her character through.
She has multiple times expressed how she didn't want to rule by fear like the mareen slavers, or be the queen of ashes. She has been portrayed as the savior come to westeros since she landed. She has been nothing but the good guy. Then suddenly, her 2 male advisors, one of which previously said fuck those people, he wish he hadn't saved them and would watch them burn, is now pleading for a minimal bloodshed resolution. The same man who knew a secret fucking tunnel into the castle and could have sent a hit squad, but nope, not worth a mention.
Her turning point was jon continuing to be an absolutely fucking stubborn idiot and not kissing her back the night before, when she says, 'It's fear then'.
Rheagars dying, missendai being captured because they 'forgot' the iron fleet, Jon actively going against the wishes of his love/queen to tell his secret, to what end? He said he doesn't want the throne. Varys asinine coup attempt and Tyrion being an absolute dipshit for falling for his sister's lies twice and giving bad advice after bad advice...everything is the result of these character being poorly written. Everything screams being written backward from, Mad queen Dany, and choosing the most obvious idiotic path to get there.
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,447
Missouri
A mother loses two of her three children, one unnecessarily for a foolish cause, and is surrounded by people who are openly betraying her or do not trust her. Her two right hand men have led her to ruin - one being completely incompetent and the other trying to outright murder her. The man who loved her is dead, her best friend was ruthlessly murdered, and her armies have been nearly exterminated - and no one is grateful for her help after all that she has lost. Even the man she loved will no longer reciprocate his love to her. After all the good she has done throughout the world, saving slaves, riding towns of warlords and slave owners, giving all her power to end the White Walkers and the Night King - she has nothing and no one but her child and the goal she set out for from the beginning: conquest.

Reading it out like this is so compelling and tragic. You can see how someone under these circumstances would snap and finally say “enough.” The recipe is there for one of the saddest arcs in television. But the execution just isn’t there, we haven’t even gotten scenes of her mourning these individual things. We don’t see her totally distraught until the very beginning of the last episode. Her trajectory leading to this moment makes sense but it is told to us and not shown. Just one episode could have set the stage for this (ideally two or three). Emilia clearly has the chops for it.

It is very sad to me that they rushed this when it could have been fantastic.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,201
She has been teetering between terrible person and benevolent savior the whole show. The bells was her moment to decide who she wanted to be. She decided to be the former, knowing people would never accept her as the latter. It's just that people weren't forced to come face to face with her brutality without room for rationalization before now, so it came as a shock. Before we were always given a more pleasant perspective to view her character through.
Agreed.

A mother loses two of her three children, one unnecessarily for a foolish cause, and is surrounded by people who are openly betraying her or do not trust her. Her two right hand men have led her to ruin - one being completely incompetent and the other trying to outright murder her. The man who loved her is dead, her best friend was ruthlessly murdered, and her armies have been nearly exterminated - and no one is grateful for her help after all that she has lost. Even the man she loved will no longer reciprocate his love to her. After all the good she has done throughout the world, saving slaves, riding towns of warlords and slave owners, giving all her power to end the White Walkers and the Night King - she has nothing and no one but her child and the goal she set out for from the beginning: conquest.

Reading it out like this is so compelling and tragic. You can see how someone under these circumstances would snap and finally say “enough.” The recipe is there for one of the saddest arcs in television. But the execution just isn’t there, we haven’t even gotten scenes of her mourning these individual things. We don’t see her totally distraught until the very beginning of the last episode. Her trajectory leading to this moment makes sense but it is told to us and not shown. Just one episode could have set the stage for this (ideally two or three). Emilia clearly has the chops for it.

It is very sad to me that they rushed this when it could have been fantastic.
I'm getting deja vu.
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,934
USA
Calling a character stupid is imo the worst, laziest piece of criticism because 9 times out of 10 when people say this character is stupid, they're projecting their own hindsight + third-person omniscience onto a character who would naturally have neither. But having said that, Jon is just that stupid. He's honorable to the point of idiocy. He shouldn't have told Sansa, he shouldn't have told Dany in the first place, he shouldn't have told Cersei he pledged himself to Dany, and so on and so on. Jon is just a bad leader.
What's interesting to me is Jon's speech to Cersei in the S7 finale. "I feel we need to be honest with each other if we're going to fight together", for Jon, also applies to the truth about himself, and even his immediate family. He's always thought that honesty outweighs all else. It's endearing to me in a way but completely foolish in another. Anybody with any sense could tell you what would happen once he told his sisters. He did the wrong thing for the right reasons, which is basically Jon in a nutshell.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,216
Portland, OR
That Tyrion video reminded me; has he done anything useful or intelligent since becoming Dany's Hand?
It's so bizarre, because in Season 2, Tyrion was basically the perfect Hand for Joffrey. He exposed the treachery of Janos Slynt and dismissed him to the Wall, he exposed the treachery of Pycelle and dismissed him from the small council, he promoted Bronn, he discovered the wildfire plot and repurposed it for the battle of Blackwater (which could have easily been lost without that gambit), and successfully holds off the attack long enough for Tywin to show up with the cavalry (and promptly take over as Hand of the king), all while stopping most of Joffrey's worst impulses. And he slapped the shit out of Joffrey for being a fucking idiot. Season 2 is the whole reason people fell in love with Tyrion in the first place; it showed him as being actually competent at managing things. So to see him make every possible wrong decision after joining Daenerys makes no damn sense at all. But I guess it goes in line with Daenerys "I want to help people, I don't want to be queen of the ashes, SYYYYYKE, fuck that place."
 
Jan 17, 2019
198
Interested to hear how my mom handles Melisandre birthing that shadow demon. She's been liking the show so far (season 2 beginning), even said that the violence is rather well done and not too gratuitous which surprised me. Of course she hasn't seen the worst yet. She called out the sexposition scene with Littlefinger and I absolutely agree, one of the dumbest moments in the show for me too. But my mom had rather hilarious commentary during it. But as the silly nonsense like shadow babies, white walkers and dragons are getting biggert part, I wonder if she'll just drop the show.
Just wait for that scene I think it was in season 5 where there's a close up of some random dude's balls for no goddamn reason.
 
Oct 27, 2017
522
Was there any point to Cersei's pregnancy? Because it sure doesn't seem like there was any point to it.
didn't it sort of keep Euron around. And was a bargaining chip Tyrion used to think he could persuade Cersei to surrender. As well as maybe one of the reasons Jamie returned to KL. Was also used to make Tyrion think Cersei would help against the NK.
 
Nov 6, 2017
108
Serious question, why are people wanting danny to be the queen? And saying she is the heir to the throne? She is a targaryan, i dont care if she is nice, they usurped the throne, they burnt people and conquered westeros. They are invaders. As far as i'm concerned she has no right to step foot in there.

Go rule esos if you want. Im glad she turned bad and i hope she gets killed.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,531
Edmonton
Big dick calculated move by Dany would be to have Grey Worm kill Jon in the middle of the chaos of the battle and blame the Lannisters for it.
Calculated, thinking long term, boss level strategy move, was to let the zombies kill Jon after the NK resurrected them. The end of the episode would still play out the same, and no more messy heir nonsense. Hell, Jorah might still be alive too. I would have done it 🤷‍♂️
 

Solo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,988
Serious question, why are people wanting danny to be the queen? And saying she is the heir to the throne? She is a targaryan, i dont care if she is nice, they usurped the throne, they burnt people and conquered westeros. They are invaders. As far as i'm concerned she has no right to step foot in there.

Go rule esos if you want. Im glad she turned bad and i hope she gets killed.
Arent most rulers throughout history usurpers? Doesnt mean you arent the legit ruler if you pull off a coup.
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,056
She has multiple times expressed how she didn't want to rule by fear like the mareen slavers, or be the queen of ashes. She has been portrayed as the savior come to westeros since she landed. She has been nothing but the good guy. Then suddenly, her 2 male advisors, one of which previously said fuck those people, he wish he hadn't saved them and would watch them burn, is now pleading for a minimal bloodshed resolution. The same man who knew a secret fucking tunnel into the castle and could have sent a hit squad, but nope, not worth a mention.
Her turning point was jon continuing to be an absolutely fucking stubborn idiot and not kissing her back the night before, when she says, 'It's fear then'.
Rheagars dying, missendai being captured because they 'forgot' the iron fleet, Jon actively going against the wishes of his love/queen to tell his secret, to what end? He said he doesn't want the throne. Varys asinine coup attempt and Tyrion being an absolute dipshit for falling for his sister's lies twice and giving bad advice after bad advice...everything is the result of these character being poorly written. Everything screams being written backward from, Mad queen Dany, and choosing the most obvious idiotic path to get there.
Yeah the writing leaves a lot to be desired on how she got to this point, in part because her acts of brutality before have always had an out or caveat we can use to justify it. She is a hero in Essos but once she sailed for Westeros she couldn't really be called well-meaning anymore. She says she wants to break the wheel and free the people, but IMO that wasn't something we were supposed to take at face value.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,747
Belgium
Serious question, why are people wanting danny to be the queen? And saying she is the heir to the throne? She is a targaryan, i dont care if she is nice, they usurped the throne, they burnt people and conquered westeros. They are invaders. As far as i'm concerned she has no right to step foot in there.

Go rule esos if you want. Im glad she turned bad and i hope she gets killed.
Go back far enough, and everyone's an invader.

They were rightful rulers for like 300 years, all told, I think. That carries a lot of weight, in terms of legitimacy. Invaders or not.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,278
Varys was responsible for that 😂
Goddamnit Varys, without fAegon in the show he's turned full idiot.

It was obvious in Season 6 that it was a bad idea.

It's also hilarious that the show just completely ignores an entire continent after she leaves. It makes sense cause the show primarily revolves around Westeros but still.
Yeah, not even an update. The world feels so small now.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,638


New promo image.

Holy fuck! King's Landing is actually completely gone. It's literally just ruins now.

It didn't seem like that much damage was done last episode but I guess the fire spread tremendously.

Daenerys gonna rule from Dragonstone then or as Queen of the Ashes?
Who are the people behind the unsullied? The Northmen?
Don't talk about the protagonist like that. For shame.
People better put some respeck on his name.
I find it funny that after almost 10 years, there still haven't been a ruler who I rooted for as much as in this moment:
THE KING IN THE NAWTH!
If it helps, it's explicitly stated that there are multiple futures but some are more likely than others:



You can change the future like MMD did when she killed baby Rhaego who would've grown up to be Genghis Khan.
Whose MMD?
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,531
Edmonton
Goddamnit Varys, without fAegon in the show he's turned full idiot.
You think I’m talking about just him bringing Dorne and the Reach on board right? Wrong lol. Go back further. No assassination attempt on her, high chance Visarys is still crying in a hut somewhere wondering when Drogo will keep his end of the promise.

Who are the people behind the unsullied? The Northmen?
Even better...they are the Dothraki. Turns out we didn’t see them all die. They just dropped their flaming weapons and booked it to the hills.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,600
What you have to understand is the show has never cared for the supernatural elements or lore in the books like religion. To the North the Old Gods are their religion, represented by their Weirwood trees. What we learn in ADWD is that the Old Gods appear to b Greenseers who "see" through these Weirwood trees. This also explains why the Children of the Forest were so angry with the First Men for chopping down their Weirwood trees, but also makes you understand why the First Men did it in the first place. Their seers can literally spy on people through Weirwood trees.

We are only just beginning to understand Bran's power in the books, but the time manipulation is the most intriguing part. Bloodraven states that Bran can't change the past or speak to people in the past, at best they hear a faint voice in the wind they can't make out. A VERY curious statement since people talk all the time about how the Weirwood trees seem like they are saying something when they are near them. But, in the second book we know that Bran seemed to have a conversation with Jon, but Jon thought it was a dream.


In any case, this leads to theories like that Bran (and all seers) are actually the Gods. The Old Gods, The Lord of Light, the Black Goat of Qohor, the Drowned God, whatever; it's all Bran and other powerful seers. But, people call them different names and attribute different aspects to them. But, who knows how much of that theory is true.

Here's Jon Snow (knowingly warging into Ghost) having a "dream" about Bran:



What's important here is that this happens BEFORE Bran ever met Bloodraven/3ER. This is when Jon first goes North of the Wall with Qhorin Halfhand.
The Warging and spying via Weirwood trees is fine, even interesting to me. It's when there's stuff like possibly impacting the past and predicting the future (even if not completely clear) that it really loses me. For once, there are always the time paradoxes with that which I do mind and then it's also just such an absurdly powerful ability. Characters like Varys and their scheming suddenly seem much less meaningful when some godly entity can see and potentially even impact all this from vast distances.

That said, it's not impossible to explore all of that and have it be interesting. If e.g. Bran's powers escalate as much in the books, maybe GRRM's gonna manage to deliver on that front. But then, maybe that's just another facet that makes it so difficult to finish writing these books >.<
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,348
Yeah the writing leaves a lot to be desired on how she got to this point, in part because her acts of brutality before have always had an out or caveat we can use to justify it. She is a hero in Essos but once she sailed for Westeros she couldn't really be called well-meaning anymore. She says she wants to break the wheel and free the people, but IMO that wasn't something we were supposed to take at face value.
Why not? She was obviously rather sincere about freeing the people of Essos and she arguably had less connection to them than she did with the commonfolk of Westeros?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,228
wherever
Calling a character stupid is imo the worst, laziest piece of criticism because 9 times out of 10 when people say this character is stupid, they're projecting their own hindsight + third-person omniscience onto a character who would naturally have neither. But having said that, Jon is just that stupid. He's honorable to the point of idiocy. He shouldn't have told Sansa, he shouldn't have told Dany in the first place, he shouldn't have told Cersei he pledged himself to Dany, and so on and so on. Jon is just a bad leader
Jon being such an honorable dope is only a thing in recent seasons. In S4 he tried to murder Mance in his home during a peaceful negotiation.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,177
Why not? She was obviously rather sincere about freeing the people of Essos and she arguably had less connection to them than she did with the commonfolk of Westeros?
Her "connection" to Westeros was an ill-placed level of entitlement. It's probably my reading of the books colouring my view of this, but Essos itself was just brutality we could justify that she'd use as a stepping stone to take Westeros.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,278
You think I’m talking about just him bringing Dorne and the Reach on board right? Wrong lol. Go back further. No assassination attempt on her, high chance Visarys is still crying in a hut somewhere wondering when Drogo will keep his end of the promise.



Even better...they are the Dothraki. Turns out we didn’t see them all die. They just dropped their flaming weapons and booked it to the hills.
Ah yeah, you're right. Varys had it out for them back then.

Her "connection" to Westeros was an ill-placed level of entitlement.
Muh birthright
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,453
I truly truly hate that there are so many Unsullied still left. The framing of the battle against the NK and the aftermath and consequences of it going forward is a travesty of writing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,638

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,056
Why not? She was obviously rather sincere about freeing the people of Essos and she arguably had less connection to them than she did with the commonfolk of Westeros?
She wouldn't have brought thousands of her people to possibly die on a foreign shore. Once she had set up her capital city in Essos she was set for life, but she wanted even more than that. She has spent most of her life in Essos, she knows it better than Westeros by a long mile.