Game of Thrones S8 |OT3| My watch has ended. (FULL SPOILERS) (See Staff Post)

Untzillatx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
563
Basque Country
i'm in agreement with the super long OP of that other thread where her capability and committing genocide was just to make the audience hate her. she was never like that before
Daenerys, in S02E04:

When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.

Video source
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,493
Daenerys, in S02E04:

When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.

Video source
S4E6
Tyrion: I saved you. I saved this city and all your worthless lives. I should have let Stannis kill you all.

...

I wish I was the monster you think I am. I wish I had enough poison for the whole pack of you. I would gladly give my life to watch you all swallow it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4Uq8O5ZhUA

That was foreshadowing. Oh, wait.

And it's worth noting other characters have had "burn it all down" bits.
 

vogelkacke

Member
Oct 28, 2017
964
Daenerys, in S02E04:

When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.

Video source
I have seen this so many times now but it still makes no sense. This was something she said on the verge of dying from starvation. A last move of intimidation to survive.

The showrunners couldn't know that she would snap that early into the show. I seriously doubt GRRM told them the biggest plotpoints during season 2. They are hacks. Plain and simple.

Her previous acts and deeds totally go against what she did in 8x05. She never killed any true innocents before.

What about the time she locked up her dragons because one innocent child died? That was pretty recent. How she was visibly distraught when she realized she killed Sam's family.

That's why there is constant criticism for that episode. But then you have the 'i am very smart' faction on the internet who saw it aaaaall coming from the moment she didn't pay off her library fees back in season 1.

The foreshadowing might have been there from day1 but it was awful. They contradicted themselves with Dany's acting and actions.
 

Tunichtgut

Member
Oct 27, 2017
664
Germany
I'm just wondering, why is it that only Dany has to fight against all the prejudices, and the others not? Just because her father was the MadKing?
 

vogelkacke

Member
Oct 28, 2017
964
I have seen this so many times now but it still makes no sense. This was something she said on the verge of dying from starvation. A last move of intimidation to survive.

The showrunners couldn't know that she would snap that early into the show. I seriously doubt GRRM told them the biggest plotpoints during season 2. They are hacks. Plain and simple.
To add to this, she never planned to burn the city down. Tyrion prevented her from burning down the red keep. Thats what her plan was when she landed on dragonstone. That's also what it looked like during the bell scene.

It would have been much more subtle to destroy the red keep and have the civilians there as collateral damage. But d&d wouldn't know subtle if it slapped them in the face.
 

Dr. Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,450
Netherlands
To add to this, she never planned to burn the city down. Tyrion prevented her from burning down the red keep. Thats what her plan was when she landed on dragonstone. That's also what it looked like during the bell scene.

It would have been much more subtle to destroy the red keep and have the civilians there as collateral damage. But d&d wouldn't know subtle if it slapped them in the face.
We've been through this a number of times already. She chose fear, her words.
Minimizing civilian casualties with minor collateral damage does not instill fear.
 

Sande

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,125
We've been through this a number of times already. She chose fear, her words.
Minimizing civilian casualties with minor collateral damage does not instill fear.
Fear is a city surrendering within 5 minutes.

Stupidity is
Losing the throne in the next 5 minutes because there's no way Jon & co let this slide.
 

Punished Goku

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,677
BossAttack The Gunslinger Morrigan
I’m gonna start reading the books soon and I found this on reddit. Is this a good guide to follow?
ead the published order:

1996: A Game of Thrones

1998: The Hedge Knight (Part 1/3 of "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms"[2015])

1998: A Clash of Kings

2000: A Storm of Swords

2003: The Sworn Sword (Part 2/3 of "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms")

2005: A Feast for Crows

2010: The Mystery Knight (Part 3/3 of "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms")

2011: A Dance with Dragons

2014: The World of Ice and Fire

Optional:

2013: The Princess and the Queen (in "Dangerous Women")

2014: The Rogue Prince (in "Rogues")
 

Tence

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,388
BossAttack The Gunslinger Morrigan
I’m gonna start reading the books soon and I found this on reddit. Is this a good guide to follow?
I personally would read the Knight of 7 Kingdoms trilogy after Asoiaf. It really is a stand alone adventure.

You forgot Fire & Blood btw...

come to think of it...so have I... it is the only one I didn't read haha.
For people who did: Is it worth it even if you read World of Ice and Fire?
 

Punished Goku

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,677
I personally would read the Knight of 7 Kingdoms trilogy after Asoiaf. It really is a stand alone adventure.

You forgot Fire & Blood btw...

come to think of it...so have I... it is the only one I didn't read haha.
For people who did: Is it worth it even if you read World of Ice and Fire?
Is fire and Blood a side book?
 

Untzillatx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
563
Basque Country
S4E6
Tyrion: I saved you. I saved this city and all your worthless lives. I should have let Stannis kill you all.

...

I wish I was the monster you think I am. I wish I had enough poison for the whole pack of you. I would gladly give my life to watch you all swallow it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4Uq8O5ZhUA

That was foreshadowing. Oh, wait.

And it's worth noting other characters have had "burn it all down" bits.
I have seen this so many times now but it still makes no sense. This was something she said on the verge of dying from starvation. A last move of intimidation to survive.

The showrunners couldn't know that she would snap that early into the show. I seriously doubt GRRM told them the biggest plotpoints during season 2. They are hacks. Plain and simple.

Her previous acts and deeds totally go against what she did in 8x05. She never killed any true innocents before.

What about the time she locked up her dragons because one innocent child died? That was pretty recent. How she was visibly distraught when she realized she killed Sam's family.

That's why there is constant criticism for that episode. But then you have the 'i am very smart' faction on the internet who saw it aaaaall coming from the moment she didn't pay off her library fees back in season 1.

The foreshadowing might have been there from day1 but it was awful. They contradicted themselves with Dany's acting and actions.
Yeah, I don't think that scene in S02 was necessarily foreshadowing S08E05, but rather it was a display of her nature, meaning that the very idea of "burning her enemies' cities to the ground" is something that she has thought about before, something that she has actually threatened to do.

I agree that her mad queen persona should have been better developed, and it certainly needed more seasons to be entirely believable. However the signs were there, so it's foolish to say it's completely "out of nowhere".

Some people even say "character assesination", or that she would never even contemplate doing such a thing.

For example, when Drogo vowed to take the Seven Kingdoms for her, she did not seem unfazed when he promised to destroy people's houses and rape their wives.
 

Kuraudo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
700
I personally would read the Knight of 7 Kingdoms trilogy after Asoiaf. It really is a stand alone adventure.

You forgot Fire & Blood btw...

come to think of it...so have I... it is the only one I didn't read haha.
For people who did: Is it worth it even if you read World of Ice and Fire?
Yes. It’s much better written than World for one. But it’s also an incredibly self-indulgent book that should have been half the length. There are some truly excellent episodes from Westeros’s history given in very satisfying detail, but there’s also so much shit about them building roads and the fates of minor Targaryens that are hell to get through. It’s worth it in the end, but prepare yourself for a bit of a slog.

Is fire and Blood a side book?
It’s (half of) the history of the Targaryen kings. The two “optional” stories at the end of your reading order and truncated versions of sections from it. Honestly I’d suggest reading the main series, then Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, then World, then Fire & Blood.

Then you can lament the fact that not only will ASoIaF never finish, but neither will the Dunk and Egg series, or the Targaryen history.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,889
BossAttack The Gunslinger Morrigan
I’m gonna start reading the books soon and I found this on reddit. Is this a good guide to follow?
It's a fine reading order. Of course, it's completely fine to read the Dunk & Egg stories after you've read the mainline books, like I did. Or you can read them before. It doesn't really matter, they're prequels.


I personally would read the Knight of 7 Kingdoms trilogy after Asoiaf. It really is a stand alone adventure.

You forgot Fire & Blood btw...

come to think of it...so have I... it is the only one I didn't read haha.
For people who did: Is it worth it even if you read World of Ice and Fire?
Fire & Blood is worth it. I'd thought it'd be redundant after WOIAF, but it really goes into detail about the Targaryen reigns, especially Jahaereys.
 

Tence

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,388
Yes. It’s much better written than World for one. But it’s also an incredibly self-indulgent book that should have been half the length. There are some truly excellent episodes from Westeros’s history given in very satisfying detail, but there’s also so much shit about them building roads and the fates of minor Targaryens that are hell to get through. It’s worth it in the end, but prepare yourself for a bit of a slog.
Thanks. I have a giftcard left for a site that sells the book, so I think I will use it for F&B



Then you can lament the fact that not only will ASoIaF never finish, but neither will the Dunk and Egg series, or the Targaryen history.
This makes me both laugh and cry.
 

Punished Goku

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,677
yeah it tells the history of the Targaryen family.

However World of Ice and Fire also has a lot on that, so that was why I was wondering if it is worth it to read both.
It’s (half of) the history of the Targaryen kings. The two “optional” stories at the end of your reading order and truncated versions of sections from it. Honestly I’d suggest reading the main series, then Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, then World, then Fire & Blood.

Then you can lament the fact that not only will ASoIaF never finish, but neither will the Dunk and Egg series, or the Targaryen history.
I’ll be sure to add Fire and bloood to my reading order than.
It's a fine reading order. Of course, it's completely fine to read the Dunk & Egg stories after you've read the mainline books, like I did. Or you can read them before. It doesn't really matter, they're prequels.




Fire & Blood is worth it. I'd thought it'd be redundant after WOIAF, but it really goes into detail about the Targaryen reigns, especially Jahaereys.
yeah I’m gonna read the main books first than the side books.
 

Pankratous

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,658
S4E6
Tyrion: I saved you. I saved this city and all your worthless lives. I should have let Stannis kill you all.

...

I wish I was the monster you think I am. I wish I had enough poison for the whole pack of you. I would gladly give my life to watch you all swallow it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4Uq8O5ZhUA

That was foreshadowing. Oh, wait.

And it's worth noting other characters have had "burn it all down" bits.
I'm pretty sure Tyrion is mostly referring to the high lords and ladies of Kings Landing in that scene i.e. the people in the room.
 
Nov 6, 2017
6,238
Los Angeles
BossAttack The Gunslinger Morrigan
I’m gonna start reading the books soon and I found this on reddit. Is this a good guide to follow?
Read a Hedge Knight after A Clash of Kings not before and that list is perfect. I think that's how we'll do it in the book club.

Alternatively, I would tell you to knock out all of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms before you read AFFC-ADWD

There's an important character in the Mystery Knight that shows up in ADWD. It's a big reveal but you won't get it if you haven't read the Dunk and Egg novels before it pops up.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,889
Read a Hedge Knight after A Clash of Kings not before and that list is perfect. I think that's how we'll do it in the book club.

Alternatively, I would tell you to knock out all of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms before you read AFFC-ADWD

There's an important character in the Mystery Knight that shows up in ADWD. It's a big reveal but you won't get it if you haven't read the Dunk and Egg novels before it pops up.
You probably still won't connect the dots after reading them.
 

Punished Goku

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,677
Read a Hedge Knight after A Clash of Kings not before and that list is perfect. I think that's how we'll do it in the book club.

Alternatively, I would tell you to knock out all of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms before you read AFFC-ADWD

There's an important character in the Mystery Knight that shows up in ADWD. It's a big reveal but you won't get it if you haven't read the Dunk and Egg novels before it pops up.
I mean the
single red eye, albino +white skin and him saying a thousand eyes and one
makes it kinda obvious who it is especially if you just come off reading the Mystery Knight
I was actually curious about the old 3ER before Bran so I looked him up in the wiki and found out it’s Brynden Rivers. Unless your referring to Euron.
 

NinjaGarden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,453
Daenerys, in S02E04:

When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.

Video source
"That I've come to destroy your cities, burn down your homes, murder you and orphan your children. That's Cersei Lannister, not me."

She wasn't lying. She was going to murder their children too.
 
Last edited:

plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
163
We've been through this a number of times already. She chose fear, her words.
Minimizing civilian casualties with minor collateral damage does not instill fear.
Eh, taking over a whole City by burning down a whole fleet, 20k Soldiers and the whole city defense in 10 Minutes is plenty enough to instill fear.
 

NinjaGarden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,453
And we've been through this before. D&D themselves say it was a spur of the moment decision where she snapped.
If anyone wants the quote from the Inside the Episode

“I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did. Then she sees the Red Keep, which is to her the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It’s in this moment on the walls of King’s Landing where she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal.”

Not surprising to see something this boneheaded from the guys who accidentally turned the Jaime/Cersei sex scene in the Great Sept into a rape scene.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,493
I'm pretty sure Tyrion is mostly referring to the high lords and ladies of Kings Landing in that scene i.e. the people in the room.
It could go either way, he does refer to the city and being a monster. But that would presumably include Cersei which he was bending over backwards to accommodate when he came back. Not to mention he was against burning the red keep before she even put human shields in there.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,452
Yep

It's also especially funny that basically all the unsullied and dothraki and valemen and northerners died but sam, jaime and all other important people (who werent even important to the finale) survived.
The only reason Jaime survived Winterfell was so that he could bang Brienne then ruin his entire character arc by fucking off to King's Landing.


Fucking hell, the way they handled Jaime this season is beyond awful. It might actually be my biggest problem with the season.

Imagine he'd died trying to save Brienne's life during the battle with the undead? Not only would it have added some much needed emotional weight to that episode, it also would have been an incredibly satisfying conclusion to his character.

As a side benefit it would mean Brienne wouldn't break into a sobbing mess as soon as she got some dick. Fuck. Everything about Jaime is terrible this season. Not only did they ruin Jaime, they also ruined Brienne for no other reason than for Jaime to die in Cersei's arms...
 
Nov 18, 2017
2,676
"That I've come to destroy your cities, burn down your homes, murder you and orphan your children. That's Cersei Lannister, not me."

She wasn't lying. She was going to murder their children too.
Yeah because the latest episode took place immediately after that speech. No events took place inbetween, and Dany wasn’t already an asshole at that point.
 
Nov 18, 2017
2,676
Yeah something took place in between. She won the war. Then she "made it personal."
She suffered heavy personal losses and was betrayed by her closest advisors.

I get some blowback because the quality has dipped, and I actually agree there could be a case that an official HBO re-edit with small reshoots could improve things.

But that won’t happen and the reaction online is so OTT. I assume most of it comes from Star Wars fans or something.
 
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NinjaGarden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,453
She suffered heavy personal losses and was betrayed by her closest advisors.

I get some blowback because the quality has dipped, and I actually agree there could be a case that an official HBO re-edit with small reshoots could improve things.

But that won’t happen and the reaction online is so OTT. I assume most of it comes from Star Wars fans or something with a grudge against D&D. Or weird Dany fans.
"Blowback because the quality has dipped" is what the show has received for the past 3 seasons. The last episode is the worst reviewed in the history of the show.
 

Nokagi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,231
This video makes me a bit sad. Damn. What could have been if only Jaime's ending had been more satisfying. But it's still a pretty cool video and very well done.
 
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BDS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,923
"Dany-as-white-American-imperialism" is probably the dumbest take on this whole situation and I will forever blame the showrunners for injecting this unnecessary racial element to her story.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,935


This older interview, tho.

I wonder if how candid that documentary is going to be. Though with it being produced by HBO, I doubt it will be very critical.
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,828
Daenerys, in S02E04:

When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.

Video source
Relevant:


Foreshadowing Is Not Character Development

Season 8's writing sets Daenerys up to lose.

- She chooses to delay her ambitions for the Iron Throne to help defend Westeros from the White Walkers. Her reward is the loss of a dragon and a reduced army.

- She surrounds herself with good advisors to temper her Targaryen impulses, including two of the smartest people in the land, Varys and Tyrion. When it suits the writers, their judgment suddenly leads Dany to disaster.

- Poorly written situations are contrived to drive Dany to the edge. She "forgets" about the Iron Fleet and is somehow unable to spot it from the air, resulting in the loss of a dragon and later her best friend, Missandei.

The writers placed Daenerys in an unwinnable situation. She makes prudent and noble choices and is punished for them, which is not consistent with previous seasons. Her madness was foreshadowed, but the choices she makes to get there are not justified by the writing, especially in Season 8.
 
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Nokagi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,231
What wasn't satisfying about it? Dude died with his one true love. He wasn't Jamie of old times anymore.
He was exactly "Jaime of old times". That's the problem. His character kinda went nowhere and ended up in the same spot it started. He had a pointless fight with Euron. Claimed he didn't care about innocent people and died hugging it out with Cersei. I'm not super upset about it but c'mon let's not pretend his story had some kinda wonderful conclusion.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,343
This video makes me a bit sad. Damn. What could have been if only Jaime's ending had been more satisfying. But it's still a pretty cool video and very well done.
Such a well made video. I love these.

"Dany-as-white-American-imperialism" is probably the dumbest take on this whole situation and I will forever blame the showrunners for injecting this unnecessary racial element to her story.
Lol at this being the "dumbest take". I've seen worse.