• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Oct 25, 2017
12,538
So what did Cersei do this season asides from starring smugly out a window for like 90% of her screen time, having regretful sex with Euron, and wanting elephants?

Like... she had no real plan to fight Dany at all.
 

teague

Member
Dec 17, 2018
1,509
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/game-of-thrones/s08/e05 Mess. Sapochnik doesn't deserve to be dragged like this, he did what he could.

It's probably inevitable. This would have been a completely outstanding 9th episode in a 10 episode season, but even then people probably are just mad because they like Dany and want her to be a hero (like what happened with Stannis, who everyone bafflingly worshipped even though/because he was a complete fascist). We got it as a slightly-undermotivated 5th episode which probably exacerbates the reaction, but I think it would've happened anyway. Fandoms always seem to want neat bows and weddings.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
Does madness itself warrant explanation? No one knows what caused Aerys II to go mad.
EDIT: I stand corrected.
She snapped after the city's surrender. What was going through her mind then?

This needed exploration, in a 10 episode season damnit.
 
Last edited:

Menelaus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,682
It's incredibly depressing how useless Euron ended up being to this season.

Have the NK kill Rhaegal at Winterfell to further elevate the threat/power of the walkers. Arya can still kill NK, but they leave WF going "goddamn, this dude killed 2/3rds of our dragons, and we barely scraped by!"

Now you don't need Euron's E4 miracle shot that made less than 0 sense, now you don't have to artificially pump up how threatening Euron/Golden Company are, and you don't have to do the stupid bit about how powerful the scorpions are (which, by the way, were 100% destroyed in 5 minutes in E5).

Also, Euron/Jaime fight doesn't need to happen because Euron stabbing Jaime 100 times didn't even kill Jaime. Everything Euron did this season was really for nothing or a net negative to the plot.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,293
No one knows what caused Aerys II to go mad.
Yeah we do.
Even if we are to draw parallels to Aerys II, it's important to note that he grew steadily paranoid and crazy over many years. His ultimate insanity was a gradual process that was the result of multiple events. Further, his defining act as the Mad King - attempting to burn down King's Landing - was a premeditated scheme meant to deprive Robert Baratheon of the capital if it looked as though he was going to win. His "burn them all" moment wasn't some final psychotic snap - it was him realizing that the rebellion was about to be won, and an order to Lord Rossart to ignite the wildfire caches he had hidden away for that exact purpose many months before, directly following Jon Connington's loss at Stoney Sept.
 

Corky

Alt account
Banned
Dec 5, 2018
2,479
Yeah but changing a big part of the ending is different than changing stuff along the way. Jaime and Cersei are key characters of the series. Their fates are important. I don't think D&D would change Jaime killing her to "Jaime professing his love for her and then they die together as the castle crumbles around them".


And for the record I was one of the people who was 100% sure he was going to kill her.
They changed his entire arc in the show though. His end makes sense in the show. I think they absolutely would change the ending for a character whose overall story they had already changed. They completely changed Stannis's ending for example because they changed the character.
 

Sweeney Swift

User Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,743
#IStandWithTaylor
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/game-of-thrones/s08/e05 48% on Rotten Tomatoes. Officially the lowest critically-reviewed episode of the series' history

The finale could get 100% and the final season of Game of Thrones would still officially be the lowest critically-reviewed season in the series' history (eps in order would look like 92, 88, 75, 57, 48, 100). No other season had less than 91%

Well-deserved
 

Damerman

Banned
Jun 9, 2018
850
Loved loved loved the recent episode!! The dragon and dany coming in, the fear on the golden company's faces as the she came from behind, hound vs zombie, Arya watching in horror as everything burned down, jon snow and his"i just f'd up face", Cerseis realization of her defeat and relief when the bell was rung, the dread when dany went coco.......aghhhh. I want more but only one left :-( anyway, my thoughts , not staying on for this hate fest.
agreed. All of that was really well done. I loved the episode... but Euron and Jaime... absolutely ruined it for me. I can't get it out of my mind.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,538
The past three episodes have all had moments that made me say "Oh, fuck you!" at my screen. Euron walking up on that beach right as Jaime walked by was it this time.

Nothing like following up a 20 km swim in leather armor after a dragon wipes out your entire fleet with a sword fight with Jamie Lanister for reasons....

Euron is such a shit character, holy crap.
 
Oct 30, 2017
8,967


Turns out Emilia only acted so well in that episode because she thinks "grief and hurt" justifies genocide...although maybe she didn't actually know what Dany did when she recorded that scene?
 

AnansiThePersona

Started a revolution but the mic was unplugged
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,682
When the bells started ringing and Dany obviously started feeling very conflicted, I thought it was because she did not want to let Cersei have a chance to escape alive. She got up and started flying to the red keep, and I thought she was just going to decimate it right there, but then she started attacking the lower city in a seemingly random fashion and nothing made sense anymore. That was pure character assassination.

Yeah that would've made sense but they wanted to get that "Mad Queen" plotline off without it making any sense. Dany was ruthless towards HER ENEMIES. Have her attack Cersei after they have surrendered and then you have an interesting conflict.
 

Conrad Link

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,639
New Zealand
Even in heel turn sense Dany just killing all these town people, wasting time while Cersei could escape or whatever makes NO SENSE!

"But she mad tho."

SO STUPID!
 

spookyduzt

Drive-In Mutant
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,821
pzif1ue7oyx21.jpg


Dany did nothing wrong

Except Griffith had lost everything and was at his lowest point. He was physically destroyed, felt betrayed, and had lost his dream. He was backed into a corner, and given a way out.

Dany had won. She's lost a lot, sure, but she'd won. Nothing the show presented justified her losing her goddamn mind, torching thousands of innocent women & children. Hell, she locked her "children" up in a dungeon because they killed one child.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510

PeskyToaster

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,312
Correct. This has been explained so many times, I'm surprised that youre surprised.

I did lol. That was hours ago!


THANK YOU

This sums it up perfectly really.

Dany killing innocents as collateral damage in order to win would have been both consistent with her character as presented in the last few episodes, and still a solid heel turn that could have led Tyrion, Jon etc. to feel "betrayed". The slaughter of civilians after total victory is just indefensibly bad writing and a complete misrepresentation of her character.

That's why I don't buy the idea that it was foreshadowed. She's been vengeful and angry at times but it's always been really targeted at specific wrongs on really terrible people. Warlocks, slavers, and witches were killed but never really at the expense of innocents. When her dragon killed a single innocent they were chained up. The Mad King went mad over time without a triggering event aside from paranoid delusions with no basis. This is not that.
 

Ganzlinger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,732
Jaime's character development went basically into trash.

And I don't mind the idea of Dany going crazy, but the way they did was really rushed and unsatisfying. Her decision to rule the realm with fear, slaughtering innocents, makes her more like a psychopath than a madwoman, which is pretty much questionable, if you look at how her character used to be.
 

AzorAhai

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,584
I've realized that Jaime's ending is what I find infuriating. I'm ok with the rest of the events even if the conveniences are more bothering than before.

The sad thing about this season is that outside of the writing, everyone brought their A game. Music, directing, acting... all of it is so good.


Yep, which leads to criticism that is way worse than what is actually happening, all season.

The first seasons were better obviously, but this isn't some garbage TV. If only writing matters to you then just wait for the books.

The same obession with writing has been going on these last few years in the gaming community, when really great stories in games are rarely the point, and ok writing is praised as incredible.

This was a good season of a TV show even if it felt rushed. I'm hoping the remaining books will set up the ending way better though.

That said, I can't get over what they did to show Jaime. AAAAAAAAARGGGGH
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
An oversimplification.

She never wanted to rule in Essos. She wanted to take back her 'birthright', and when that was about to be lost (Varys telling other Lords who the true king is) *and* being rejected by Jon she just lost any tether to her sanity.

The threads tie together, they just needed more time
Saying it was only about her birthright is the simplification. It's a big part of her motivation, but empathizing with the poor, the enslaved, the downtrodden is also a huge part of her motivation. So her using her rise to power to help those people is a big part of her story as well.

Which is why it's such a wild heel turn for her to napalm every innocent civilian in king's landing in continual passes from the outer walls up to the red keep like she's mowing the lawn. Just unnecessary carnage. Butchering women and children in the streets as they scream for mercy. This is excessive. Even a fully insane Daenerys would likely have a savior complex, and killing innocents has never been a part of her character.

It's the same disregard for the past as Jaime weeping over his decision to kill the mad king to spare thousands of innocent lives several seasons ago, and now he "never much cared for them". These don't feel like character choices, they just feel like things happening.
 
Rules for this thread

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,293
Official Staff Communication
Some ground rules for this thread:
  • Do not post content from leaks under any circumstances in this thread (use the Leaks thread for this). Posting such content, including disguised as "speculation" or "prediction", will be harshly moderated.
  • Please post all speculation and prediction for the finale in spoiler tags. Obvious jokes don't need to be spoiler-tagged but it might still be safer to do so. No longer applicable, thanks for waiting!
  • Be civil when discussing and disagreeing. Avoid generalizing, antagonizing, or trolling other members.
  • Examples of the above include calling critics of the season as "hater nerds", or calling defenders of the season as "dumb". This is poor behaviour and will result in harsher moderation than before going forward.
Thank you for understanding.
 
Last edited:

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
52,774
Does madness itself warrant explanation? No one knows what caused Aerys II to go mad.

Thats not entirely true. Aerys going full Mad King was believed to be caused by the Defiance of Duskendale.

From the Wiki of Ice and Fire

The Defiance began in 277 AC when Lord Denys Darklyn ceased to pay his taxes,[1] to demonstrate his anger.[2] Aware of the strained relationship between King Aerys II Targaryen and Lord Tywin Lannister, Denys invited Aerys to come to Duskendale to hear his petition. When Tywin advised him not to go, Aerys, who wished to distance himself from his Hand, decided to deal with the problem personally. Aerys travelled to Duskendale with a small escort led by only one Kingsguard knight, Ser Gwayne Gaunt, to bring the defiant Lord Darklyn to heel. Upon arrival, however, the king was imprisoned. Some of the king's escort were killed defending their king, including Ser Gwayne, who was slain by Denys's master-at-arms, Ser Symon Hollard.[1][3] Aerys was shoved roughly, stripped of his royal raiment, and even struck.[1] Young Robin Hollard, a squire, pulled the king's beard.[3]

Lord Denys refused to give up the king, threatening that he would kill Aerys at the first sign of an assault. As Lord Tywin Lannister could not attack Duskendale, he besieged it with a sizable host.[3][1]

The Defiance lasted half a year.[1][3] Lord Denys remained convinced that it was a matter of time until Tywin would offer better terms. However, Tywin gave Duskendale a final demand to surrender the king, promising that refusal would result in the loyalists storming the town and executing everyone inside.[1]

The Defiance was eventually ended when Ser Barristan Selmy of the Kingsguard offered to perform a solo rescue mission. Lord Tywin gave him a day before he would storm the castle. Barristan scaled the walls unseen at night, making his way into the Dun Fort disguised as a hooded beggar, before scaling those walls as well. He freed King Aerys out of the dungeons, and while bringing the king to safety, avenged his sworn brother, Gwayne Gaunt, by slaying his killer, Symon Hollard. Before the castle's gates could be closed, Barristan had managed to get a horse and bring the king to safety, despite an arrow wound to the chest.[1][4] Without a hostage, Lord Denys surrendered.[1]


And then finally

Following his half year of captivity at Duskendale, Aerys II was forever a changed man. It is believed by some that it was the Defiance which caused the king's madness.[3] Barristan, however, claims that it had always been in him, with the lapses of madness growing more frequent over time,[5] and it is considered that the Defiance shattered what little sanity Aerys had left.[1]His madness grew significantly worse in the years that followed. He would no longer allow others to touch him, and as a result, his hair and fingernails grew longer and longer. No blades were allowed near him, except for the swords of his Kingsguard, and his judgments became more severe and crueler. From the end of the Defiance in 277 AC, until the tourney at Harrenhal in 281 AC, Aerys refused to leave the Red Keep.[1][6]

Furthermore, his experience at Duskendale had convinced Aerys that his son and heir, Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, had conspired with Tywin to have Aerys killed during the Defiance by storming the walls, which would have allowed for Rhaegar to ascend the Iron Throne and marry Lord Tywin's daughter, Cersei Lannister. Aerys grew mistrustful of Tywin as a consequence, going as far as to refuse to meet with Tywin without the presence of all his Kingsguard knights. Relations with his son Rhaegar became more strained, and the king began to mistrust everyone, from the smallfolk to his own wife, Queen Rhaella Targaryen.[1]



So yeah Aerys was a good guy early in his life and then slowly slipped into bouts of madness and then finally went over the edge completely after his kidnapping.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Oh boy. When I saw Dany make her move, I immediately thought of the reactions online. The metaphor for Dany/Kings Landing and D&D/the internet couldn't have been clearer

Holy shit, what an episode that was. Whatever you think of the narrative decisions, that was an excellently filmed/directed/edited/scored/acted piece of entertainment.

Still trying to wrap my head around what happened.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,112
Dany's superfans are just buttblasted, people should complaining how Tyrion was turned into an idiot and Jamine character is one big nothing.
 

Lunatic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,827
Honestly this episode is just what happens when a person who solves all their problems with dragonfire has a very very very bad week.
 

Herey

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Jan 10, 2019
3,407
It's probably inevitable. This would have been a completely outstanding 9th episode in a 10 episode season, but even then people probably are just mad because they like Dany and want her to be a hero (like what happened with Stannis, who everyone bafflingly worshipped even though/because he was a complete fascist). We got it as a slightly-undermotivated 5th episode which probably exacerbates the reaction, but I think it would've happened anyway. Fandoms always seem to want neat bows and weddings.
Nah. Dany isn't a character I like very much (book and show), and I believe they just ruined her arc completely. It's not even what happened, it's what lead us there.
 

Robdraggoo

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,455
Well for the first time in years I don't even have any predictions of how its going to end. At least it has that going for it.
 

teague

Member
Dec 17, 2018
1,509
Except Griffith had lost everything and was at his lowest point. He was physically destroyed, felt betrayed, and had lost his dream. He was backed into a corner, and given a way out.

oh man we got a Griffith stan and not even in a Berserk thread
I will admit that
Fantasia is dope