Ah sorry, meant it the other way. I mean, the likelihood of Jon getting the throne must have gone up. So too has the likelihood of him dying.
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Game of Thrones S8 |OT3| Best season evar. (FULL SPOILERS) (See Staff Post)
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The show definitely fucked up by rushing her there but I'm slowly just accepting it and still invested in the show.
This was posted a few pages back and covers your concerns better than I could.
Dany always had the ability to do evil things, but since she was only hurting those who "deserved it" in the eyes of the readers/viewers we were willing to look past it and not see it for what it was.
Why are you using the book to make your point, the crux of the criticisms is that the show has been utterly terrible about leading Dany to a point where she'd believably commit genocide.
I don't what to watch now when Thrones ends. Why couldn't they just expand S7 to 10 episodes. Finish the whole white walkers storyline there, then dedicate the entirety of S8 on Daenerys going bad. Whatever. They can't fuck it up even more, can they?
She killed a large group of with her dragon. Innocent people, women, and children how did she not commit genocide?
Because the logic applies here as well. Dany has been crucifying, burning, and killing people by feeding them to her dragons on and off for the better part of 8 seasons now. But since most of the people she did it to were "bad guys" some people never really saw it as a red flag. But it should have been. It shows she always had the ability to do evil things to other people. Just because they "deserved it" doesn't make it any less disturbing.
And once again I will say that yes they rushed it all and yes they butchered the execution of her mentally unraveling, but the foreshadowing of what she was under the surface when she met with resistance has been there for a long time. The only difference this time was that the people she killed weren't as guilty as those she had killed previously and this time she did it on a much larger scale.
So, I finally saw the episode last night and well...it wasn't that bad. Like, let's make petition to redo the whole thing bad, lol.
I enjoyed it more than episodes 3 and 4, because I felt like the story lines / character arcs this one ended had at least somewhat satisfactory conclusions (when compared to ep. 3 and 4) and I didn't register that much of the usual dumbness (like stealth fleets with sniper ballistae or characters using fast travel) that has been an issue with the show in the last seasons. And it did look and sound gorgeous many times.
I have no issues with Mad Dany. I get it could have used a bit more time, but she has had her whole self image built on her being the rightful ruler, loved by The People and the mother of dragonS. All these save for one dragon has been stripped away and she defaulted to the ways of every other dictator (and she always was one) whom the The People just don't understand.
(Haven't read the books btw)
I enjoyed it more than episodes 3 and 4, because I felt like the story lines / character arcs this one ended had at least somewhat satisfactory conclusions (when compared to ep. 3 and 4) and I didn't register that much of the usual dumbness (like stealth fleets with sniper ballistae or characters using fast travel) that has been an issue with the show in the last seasons. And it did look and sound gorgeous many times.
I have no issues with Mad Dany. I get it could have used a bit more time, but she has had her whole self image built on her being the rightful ruler, loved by The People and the mother of dragonS. All these save for one dragon has been stripped away and she defaulted to the ways of every other dictator (and she always was one) whom the The People just don't understand.
(Haven't read the books btw)
Even from book 1/season 1 I thought Jon Snow was gonna be a very important character and likely someway, somehow become the King. I remember seeing some section alluding to it. But based on how his character has developed, and I don't think it's unreasonable that he is acting the way he is based on his death experience and resurrection, that he doesn't think he is suited to become king. He couldn't even manage one faction of peoples let alone the entire 7 kingdoms.
So I predict he will decide that all the slaughter over controlling the 7 kingdoms, and the destruction of king's landing, that it isn't worth rebuilding so as others mentioned there won't be a central governing body any longer. This sets up for spin offs taking place in westeros but who knows how that'd look. Seems like so many of the ruling class are dead but I guess it could look forward some 20 years in the future when things are a bit more stable.
So I predict he will decide that all the slaughter over controlling the 7 kingdoms, and the destruction of king's landing, that it isn't worth rebuilding so as others mentioned there won't be a central governing body any longer. This sets up for spin offs taking place in westeros but who knows how that'd look. Seems like so many of the ruling class are dead but I guess it could look forward some 20 years in the future when things are a bit more stable.
I would have had Jamie reach Cersei and try to negotiate her surrender while Lannister soldiers are being slaughtered. Cersei rejects this. Dragon is wounded by a bolt shortly after Jamie arrives and this gives Cersei false hope. Drogon lands on a child and onlooking enraged civilians begin pelting Dany and her dragon with rocks after a brief quiet stare down.
Annoyed with Cersei and knowing she is losing, Jamie rings the bells himself. A moment of silence passes before you see a burst of dragon fire from afar. Unsullied rush in to the keep led by Grey Worm and murder Cersei by ramming their spears through her stomach. Jamie watches horrified before they shove him from the bell tower.
Cleganebowl is abruptly ended as the brothers fall to Dany's army despite putting up a good fight. North men retreat with Jon. You never see Dany or Drogon again, just the sound of Dany screaming "kill them all" and Drogon's screeching fire. Kings landing isn't destroyed. Dany didn't fly around killing without cause, but she walks away changed all the same.
Thats my awful fan fiction and I honestly feel it would have made more sense while bringing us to the same point of Mad queen Dany. It also saves Jamie's arc for me but I'm a nobody so take it for what you will. I still love the show and feel the amount of negativity it is getting is a display of how unhealthy the fandom is surrounding it.
Annoyed with Cersei and knowing she is losing, Jamie rings the bells himself. A moment of silence passes before you see a burst of dragon fire from afar. Unsullied rush in to the keep led by Grey Worm and murder Cersei by ramming their spears through her stomach. Jamie watches horrified before they shove him from the bell tower.
Cleganebowl is abruptly ended as the brothers fall to Dany's army despite putting up a good fight. North men retreat with Jon. You never see Dany or Drogon again, just the sound of Dany screaming "kill them all" and Drogon's screeching fire. Kings landing isn't destroyed. Dany didn't fly around killing without cause, but she walks away changed all the same.
Thats my awful fan fiction and I honestly feel it would have made more sense while bringing us to the same point of Mad queen Dany. It also saves Jamie's arc for me but I'm a nobody so take it for what you will. I still love the show and feel the amount of negativity it is getting is a display of how unhealthy the fandom is surrounding it.
O k
I just don't see the point of using the books to try and defend the show's missteps.
Anyhow, foreshadowing isn't some free pass, the show still has to put in the groundwork to make the audience genuinely believe that she was capable of something that horrific and illogical. Unfortunately, it failed completely in that regard.
Calling it the "only difference" trivializes what she did. Despite having clearly won the battle, she willingly went out of her way to murder countless innocent lives. And like others have pointed out, she weirdly made herself busy doing that when at the very least she should've targeted the Red Keep first. Instead she takes her time getting around to doing that. So not only was her actions unearned, but they're idiotic as well.
There were so many ways to go about this, yet somehow the show manages to pick the worst one.
On the second part I agree. It was rushed and poorly executed, but since I knew it was coming it was not at all that shocking to me. I've always known Mad Dany was in the cards and I had always figured that when things went bad they would go REALLY bad. The show's gratuitous focus on the violence was actually more surprising to me than the fact she was committing it.
Since I was expecting it to happen I didn't get nearly as caught off guard and upset as alot of other people. I think that's why I was still able to enjoy the episode as much as I did.
I mean, technically speaking if you want to split hairs if someone isn't killing a bunch of people because of their ethnicity then it's technically not genocide. But that's splitting hairs and mass slaughter takes more letters.
Oh, come on after episode 4 most people knew we would get some form of Mad Queen Dany. Doesn't make it well developed. I figured we'd get it after episode 3, tbh. I also kinda figured that that was a likely plot point since the beginning of the series. Just not like that.
The Brazilian channel "Quatro Coisas" did a good work on why Daenerys had this 180º. turn. Basically he said "Since Daenerys departed from Essos, she thought that the kingdom would receive her with the arms wide open, and that clearly wasn't the case. During her time, she lost her nearest people and even sons and was betrayed many times during that time. Knowing that she isn't even the real heir of the throne was too much for her, and even when she was rejected as a woman let her in a disturbed mental state. She then declared that if she couldn't be loved, the she would be feared and then they would eventually broke the wheel that she said in the past."
I'm not saying that I agree, but at least I can understand his point. On spoiler it's the video - in Portuguese and it's pretty easy to follow if you unserstand spanish well.
I'm not saying that I agree, but at least I can understand his point. On spoiler it's the video - in Portuguese and it's pretty easy to follow if you unserstand spanish well.
Via the ASOFAI forums via Reddit there's another old post that called this that leads one to suspect that a big problem with the plot is indeed that cut book 5 character, for reasons other than that merging him and Jon doesn't make sense. https://preview.redd.it/acmxjb0wkgy...bp&s=209f3b442f386857dde5f767e79ab32b68712754
If Aegon is the one to defeat Cersei, not Dany, it completely trainwrecks Dany's path to the Iron Throne. Given that "Mother of Dragons, Slayer of Lies" is a thing in the Book 2 stuff, maybe that's actually how it goes down - we may be missing a battle where Cersei goes down before the finale, where everyone bands together to beat the undead, and then Dany goes and invades her former allies ruled by a decent kid, causing all the moral conflict talked about in S8E1-5 to suddenly make a lot more sense..
Daenerys, in S02E04:
When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.
Video source
S4E6
Tyrion: I saved you. I saved this city and all your worthless lives. I should have let Stannis kill you all.
...
I wish I was the monster you think I am. I wish I had enough poison for the whole pack of you. I would gladly give my life to watch you all swallow it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4Uq8O5ZhUA
That was foreshadowing. Oh, wait.
And it's worth noting other characters have had "burn it all down" bits.
I have seen this so many times now but it still makes no sense. This was something she said on the verge of dying from starvation. A last move of intimidation to survive.
The showrunners couldn't know that she would snap that early into the show. I seriously doubt GRRM told them the biggest plotpoints during season 2. They are hacks. Plain and simple.
Her previous acts and deeds totally go against what she did in 8x05. She never killed any true innocents before.
What about the time she locked up her dragons because one innocent child died? That was pretty recent. How she was visibly distraught when she realized she killed Sam's family.
That's why there is constant criticism for that episode. But then you have the 'i am very smart' faction on the internet who saw it aaaaall coming from the moment she didn't pay off her library fees back in season 1.
The foreshadowing might have been there from day1 but it was awful. They contradicted themselves with Dany's acting and actions.
I'm just wondering, why is it that only Dany has to fight against all the prejudices, and the others not? Just because her father was the MadKing?
To add to this, she never planned to burn the city down. Tyrion prevented her from burning down the red keep. Thats what her plan was when she landed on dragonstone. That's also what it looked like during the bell scene.
It would have been much more subtle to destroy the red keep and have the civilians there as collateral damage. But d&d wouldn't know subtle if it slapped them in the face.
We've been through this a number of times already. She chose fear, her words.
Minimizing civilian casualties with minor collateral damage does not instill fear.
And we've been through this before. D&D themselves say it was a spur of the moment decision where she snapped.
Fear is a city surrendering within 5 minutes.
Stupidity is
Losing the throne in the next 5 minutes because there's no way Jon & co let this slide.
BossAttack The Gunslinger Morrigan
I'm gonna start reading the books soon and I found this on reddit. Is this a good guide to follow?
I'm gonna start reading the books soon and I found this on reddit. Is this a good guide to follow?
I personally would read the Knight of 7 Kingdoms trilogy after Asoiaf. It really is a stand alone adventure.
You forgot Fire & Blood btw...
come to think of it...so have I... it is the only one I didn't read haha.
For people who did: Is it worth it even if you read World of Ice and Fire?
yeah it tells the history of the Targaryen family.
However World of Ice and Fire also has a lot on that, so that was why I was wondering if it is worth it to read both.
Yeah, I don't think that scene in S02 was necessarily foreshadowing S08E05, but rather it was a display of her nature, meaning that the very idea of "burning her enemies' cities to the ground" is something that she has thought about before, something that she has actually threatened to do.
I agree that her mad queen persona should have been better developed, and it certainly needed more seasons to be entirely believable. However the signs were there, so it's foolish to say it's completely "out of nowhere".
Some people even say "character assesination", or that she would never even contemplate doing such a thing.
For example, when Drogo vowed to take the Seven Kingdoms for her, she did not seem unfazed when he promised to destroy people's houses and rape their wives.
Yes. It's much better written than World for one. But it's also an incredibly self-indulgent book that should have been half the length. There are some truly excellent episodes from Westeros's history given in very satisfying detail, but there's also so much shit about them building roads and the fates of minor Targaryens that are hell to get through. It's worth it in the end, but prepare yourself for a bit of a slog.
It's (half of) the history of the Targaryen kings. The two "optional" stories at the end of your reading order and truncated versions of sections from it. Honestly I'd suggest reading the main series, then Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, then World, then Fire & Blood.
Then you can lament the fact that not only will ASoIaF never finish, but neither will the Dunk and Egg series, or the Targaryen history.
It's a fine reading order. Of course, it's completely fine to read the Dunk & Egg stories after you've read the mainline books, like I did. Or you can read them before. It doesn't really matter, they're prequels.
Fire & Blood is worth it. I'd thought it'd be redundant after WOIAF, but it really goes into detail about the Targaryen reigns, especially Jahaereys.
Thanks. I have a giftcard left for a site that sells the book, so I think I will use it for F&B
This makes me both laugh and cry.
I'll be sure to add Fire and bloood to my reading order than.
yeah I'm gonna read the main books first than the side books.
I'm pretty sure Tyrion is mostly referring to the high lords and ladies of Kings Landing in that scene i.e. the people in the room.
Read a Hedge Knight after A Clash of Kings not before and that list is perfect. I think that's how we'll do it in the book club.
Alternatively, I would tell you to knock out all of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms before you read AFFC-ADWD
There's an important character in the Mystery Knight that shows up in ADWD. It's a big reveal but you won't get it if you haven't read the Dunk and Egg novels before it pops up.
You probably still won't connect the dots after reading them.
I mean the
single red eye, albino +white skin and him saying a thousand eyes and one
I was actually curious about the old 3ER before Bran so I looked him up in the wiki and found out it's Brynden Rivers. Unless your referring to Euron.
"That I've come to destroy your cities, burn down your homes, murder you and orphan your children. That's Cersei Lannister, not me."
She wasn't lying. She was going to murder their children too.
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Eh, taking over a whole City by burning down a whole fleet, 20k Soldiers and the whole city defense in 10 Minutes is plenty enough to instill fear.
If anyone wants the quote from the Inside the Episode
"I don't think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did. Then she sees the Red Keep, which is to her the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It's in this moment on the walls of King's Landing where she's looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal."
Not surprising to see something this boneheaded from the guys who accidentally turned the Jaime/Cersei sex scene in the Great Sept into a rape scene.
It could go either way, he does refer to the city and being a monster. But that would presumably include Cersei which he was bending over backwards to accommodate when he came back. Not to mention he was against burning the red keep before she even put human shields in there.
The only reason Jaime survived Winterfell was so that he could bang Brienne then ruin his entire character arc by fucking off to King's Landing.
Fucking hell, the way they handled Jaime this season is beyond awful. It might actually be my biggest problem with the season.
Imagine he'd died trying to save Brienne's life during the battle with the undead? Not only would it have added some much needed emotional weight to that episode, it also would have been an incredibly satisfying conclusion to his character.
As a side benefit it would mean Brienne wouldn't break into a sobbing mess as soon as she got some dick. Fuck. Everything about Jaime is terrible this season. Not only did they ruin Jaime, they also ruined Brienne for no other reason than for Jaime to die in Cersei's arms...
I remember the Maggy the frog bit being in the show - but I guess they only had the part about the kids dying? Nothing about the valonqar?
yeah nothing about the valonqar...although it was probably cus they forgot rather than intentionally.