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Vela

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 16, 2018
1,818
MOD EDIT: Please do not pit minority concerns against each other, as this is unproductive and is derailing the discussion. Posts before and after this mod post that violate this mod post will be moderated accordingly.

This thread reminded me that game developers and publishers still shy away from having black and brown women as protagonists. We always talk a lot about women in games, but it mostly starts and ends with white women, so when we finally get a character who isn't some dude, it's usually just a white woman - see Ellie, Aloy, Lara Croft, Bayonetta, Samus, Jill Valentine, Claire Redfield, Evie Frye, Senua in Hellblade, 2B in Nier, Kara in Detroit, Max in Life is Strange, etc. And with upcoming games like Control, it's yet another white woman. And if there is a brown or a black woman, it's at best as a support or side-character and never the actual main one.

The games industry have operated for over 40 years and the online push for diversity and representation have been going on for almost a decade, yet the *only* black women we've gotten to play in mainstream games is Aveline in a low budget handheld Assassin's Creed, Michonne in a minor Walking Dead expansion, Nilin in Remember Me (which the developers have never returned to again), Billie in Dishonored 2: DOTO in first-person, and arguably Sheva Alomar in Resident Evil 5 who was more of a support character than an actual player-character.

Imagine how cool it would be for a major AAA game to have a black or brown woman as its main lead. The next Last of Us? The next Assassin's Creed? The next Final Fantasy? The next Resident Evil? The next GTA? The next Red Dead Redemption? The next Witcher? The next marketing campaign for an upcoming AAA game with a character creator? (The fact that we have to imagine this and it would somehow be radical is actually very disheartening.)

After such a long time of promises of better days and more diversity and representation, I am frankly tired of waiting. I dread the implicit, but constant exclusion of black and brown women in video games. It's cool that we are getting more 'diversity' in games, but the colorism is incredibly obvious once you start paying attention to how white almost every female protagonist (or character for that matter) is. Game developers and publishers, especially AAA ones, should put a black woman as the main character in their game and it should be as soon as possible.

The persistent lack of them is a blight on video game culture and the lack of them just shows how racist and sexist it can be. So it's about damn time that the games industry does something about it.
 
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Aug 29, 2018
1,089
Why is it about black and not about just people of color or more ethnicity as a whole? Not even trying to be inflammatory here, been a few threads lately where I have thought this, we need more diversity in general but yeah I agree

EDIT: I have reasons for saying this but some would rather get annoyed and attack my character for noticing a pattern. I am editing in a few of my other posts in case some people would rather have a discussion instead of just being reactionary

There have been a few threads and a lot of discussion about underepresentation of black people very specifically. This one and the one about Nintendo needing a black protagonist ( they do, but it is also fair to note that they don't even have an Asian protagonist) being most recent

If we are going to say it is the responsibility of those with a platform to advocate for others which I see a lot on here , African Americans have a platform (many are American) and there are other groups getting shunned just as much as them if not worse. Idk, again not trying to be inflammatory I know that is how this kind of talk can come off. Not saying people should or shouldn't change their language when it comes to inclusion people do what they want just thinking

EDIT: obviously if I advocated for more Jewish people would not think there is anything wrong with that it isn't like I think this thread is racist, just noticing a trend. As people have said more black representation is a big part of Americas idea of diversity right now, women protagonist clearly where Americas idea of diversity the last decade or so, I am not complaining that we are getting a lot of white women.....just you know, could do more, if the talk/demand around that time was phrased a little differently maybe they would've idk

Feel like it has potential to end up historically more like the blaxploitation sub-genre of movies in the 70's if devs read Mafia 3 data and Black Panther data as oh there is a market for black people as opposed to there is a market for diversity in general but idk

Emphasis on the idk. None of us do.

If you want to call me an asshat because you feel offended by what I think is an inoffensive first post (or all of them) feel free, also feel free to ignore my other posts, and also feel free to address what I've said in the thread if you'd like. If this is considered thread derailment just let me know, and I will re-edit back to original.
 
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DoublePayje

Member
Oct 29, 2017
172
User Banned (1 Month): Racism. Junior account
Why is it about black and not about just people of color in general? Not even trying to be inflammatory here, been a few threads lately where I have thought this, we need more diversity in general but yeah I agree

Also came to my mind. I think most people just want to see badass black people, Black Panther style. Not true diversity for diversities sake. Kinda racist too if you think about it.

Well anyway, you are right, more diversity please.
 

Radishhead

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,568
Why is it about black and not about just people of color or more ethnicity as a whole? Not even trying to be inflammatory here, been a few threads lately where I have thought this, we need more diversity in general but yeah I agree

Yes, it's a very American view of diversity. In much of Europe it's people of Asian or white ethnic descent who face the most discrimination and have just as little representation in games (probably more so). It's great the discussion is being had, but why divide people up like this? Bring diversity to everybody.
 
Oct 27, 2017
15,010
This is partly why I liked Uncharted: The Lost Legacy. Two female protagonists; one half-white, half-Indian and the other a black South African. Would have been even better if you could choose to play as either character, or if it had co-op and the second character controlled Nadine.

But yeah; I'm all for more diversity in games. Give me South American characters, black characters, Indonesian characters and so on. They're all much too under-represented.
 

Mr Satan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
970
Yes, it's a very American view of diversity. In much of Europe it's people of Asian or white ethnic descent who face the most discrimination and have just as little representation in games (probably more so). It's great the discussion is being had, but why divide people up like this? Bring diversity to everybody.
because most people still think in black or white

see what I did there

for real tho no one loves the browns ;_;
This is why I'm claiming anyone tan as my own cause I have no choice
 
Aug 29, 2018
1,089
Yes, it's a very American view of diversity. In much of Europe it's people of Asian or white ethnic descent who face the most discrimination and have just as little representation in games (probably more so). It's great the discussion is being had, but why divide people up like this? Bring diversity to everybody.
Also came to my mind. I think most people just want to see badass black people, Black Panther style. Not true diversity for diversities sake. Kinda racist too if you think about it.

Well anyway, you are right, more diversity please.
Feel like it has potential to end up historically more like the blaxploitation sub-genre of movies in the 70's if devs read Mafia 3 data and Black Panther data as oh there is a market for black people as opposed to their is a market for diversity in general but idk
 
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rckvla

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,732
We are getting there. We've come a long way if you ask me. Before we asked to have diverse races, we got it somehow. We asked to have female leads, we're now getting it. Having more different race female leads will come too. Yes, waiting is tiring, but games take so much time to develop too. We'll get there.
 

Razor Mom

Member
Jan 2, 2018
2,546
United Kingdom
Yes, it's a very American view of diversity. In much of Europe it's people of Asian or white ethnic descent who face the most discrimination and have just as little representation in games (probably more so). It's great the discussion is being had, but why divide people up like this? Bring diversity to everybody.
Yeah absolutely. People get ripped to shreds here (UK) for being Polish, and its awful. Regardless, I'd love to see more Latin American women in games, and its a sentiment echoed by my younger sister. As someone in this thread said, I think it's important to make sure these discussions leave room for all minorities and races which have minimal representation in the media.
 
OP
OP
Vela

Vela

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 16, 2018
1,818
Why is it about black and not about just people of color or more ethnicity as a whole? Not even trying to be inflammatory here, been a few threads lately where I have thought this, we need more diversity in general but yeah I agree
Thank God someone said it.

It gets really frustrating when gamers use "black ppl" as a blanket term for all POC. I know their intentions are pure, but in asking for diversity, you don't need to erase other marginalized groups out of the discussion.

Just something to bear in mind.

Yes, it's a very American view of diversity. In much of Europe it's people of Asian or white ethnic descent who face the most discrimination and have just as little representation in games (probably more so). It's great the discussion is being had, but why divide people up like this? Bring diversity to everybody.

1. It's not a zero-sum game.
2. The specific angle of this thread is the colorism in video games where precisely anything of a darker skin tone or ethnicity gets excluded in almost all women representation. That does not mean that others are excluded or left out of calls for more representation.

OP you should play Remember me

Already mentioned it in the OP. That game came out FIVE years ago and the developers haven't had a black women lead in their games since - nor has anybody else in the mainstream space. It's literally a wasteland out here.
 

Rathorial

Member
Oct 28, 2017
578
The persistent lack of them is a blight on video game culture and the lack of them just shows how racist and sexist it can be.

Was with you for most of this, but that goes a bit far. The absence or rareness of something in the industry does not make it racist or sexist, and also excludes publisher pressure on devs to phone in a protagonist of a certain type to try and sell well by whatever possibly flawed methodology they use.

Honestly the best case scenario is we get more new IP with women of different backgrounds, because sequels often carry over the same characters, and it gives that character more of an identity because they're attached to their own specific property than bolted on to X sequel in the already too many long-running series we have in video games.
 
Oct 27, 2017
13,464
1. It's not a zero-sum game.
2. The specific angle of this thread is the colorism in video games where precisely anything of a darker skin tone or ethnicity gets excluded in almost all women representation. That does not mean that others are excluded or left out of calls for more representation.



Already mentioned it in the OP. That game came out FIVE years ago and the developers haven't had a black women lead in their games since - nor has anybody else in the mainstream space. It's literally a wasteland out here.
Oops, my bad
 

SCB360

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,639
Yeah absolutely. People get ripped to shreds here (UK) for being Polish, and its awful. Regardless, I'd love to see more Latin American women in games, and its a sentiment echoed by my younger sister. As someone in this thread said, I think it's important to make sure these discussions leave room for all minorities and races which have minimal representation in the media.


thats not true here in the UK everywhere, I live in a Polish/English mixed area and no one hates the other, we're all friendly(and that goes for Muslims/Indians/Chinese as well) maybe its a Northen thing
 

Razor Mom

Member
Jan 2, 2018
2,546
United Kingdom
Already mentioned it in the OP. That game came out FIVE years ago and the developers haven't had a black women lead in their games since - nor has anybody else in the mainstream space. It's literally a wasteland out here.
It seems odd to take umbridge with Nontnod who have gone out of their way since then (5 years is a very short amount of time for a game developer) to create a game doing a lot for lesbian representation, and who's upcoming game seems to deal with Latino representation in a way that's not only uncliche and thoughtful, but actually does a seemingly huge service to the representation of men who aren't violent ultra masculine killing machines. I agree wholeheartedly that we need more minority representation in games, but dontnod are definitely part of the solution.
 

Maligna

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,806
Canada
That game came out FIVE years ago and the developers haven't had a black women lead in their games since - nor has anybody else in the mainstream space. It's literally a wasteland out here.

Did you play Uncharted: Lost Legacy, like someone else mentioned?

There's also Virginia from last year.

Also, there's the upcoming, In Valley of the Gods.

But yeah, I definitely agree there should be more.
 
Aug 29, 2018
1,089
1. It's not a zero-sum game.
2. The specific angle of this thread is the colorism in video games where precisely anything of a darker skin tone or ethnicity gets excluded in almost all women representation. That does not mean that others are excluded or left out of calls for more representation.



Already mentioned it in the OP. That game came out FIVE years ago and the developers haven't had a black women lead in their games since - nor has anybody else in the mainstream space.

There have been a few threads and a lot of discussion about underepresentation of black people very specifically. This one and the one about Nintendo needing a black protagonist ( they do, but it is also fair to note that they don't even have an Asian protagonist) being most recent

If we are going to say it is the responsibility of those with a platform to advocate for others which I see a lot on here , African Americans have a platform (many are American) and there are other groups getting shunned just as much as them if not worse. Idk, again not trying to be inflammatory I know that is how this kind of talk can come off, just thinking. Not saying people should or shouldn't change their language when it comes to inclusion people do what they want just thinking

EDIT: obviously if I advocated for more Jewish people would not think there is anything wrong with that it isn't like I think this thread is racist, just noticing a trend. As people have said more black representation is a big part of Americas idea of diversity right now, women protagonist clearly where Americas idea of diversity the last decade or so, I am not complaining that we are getting a lot of white women.....just you know, could do more, if the talk around that time was phrased a little differently maybe they would've idk
 
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ZiZ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,716
We need more diversity and not stop at skin color. The main reason why we should push for diversity, other than representation, is that these games give you a chance to see the world through that character's eyes. I'm honestly bored of standard white male protagonists as we've seen them a million times and their ethnicity almost never adds anything we haven't seen before. If I played a game starring a poc I would love for it to show me things that you wouldn't get from a white protagonist, like different aspects of their culture, music, food, celebrations, conflicts, social aspects, how they would react differently to something. I don't want it to feel like a simple pallet swap. The world is a huge place filled with beautiful things we've never seen, yet somehow we choose to ignore them.
 

Velezcora

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
3,124
Remember Me had a PoC as a protag? She looked like a darker skinned caucasian woman to me.
Though race is a social construct and lines blend way more than you think.
Skin tone varies a lot even in the "white" race. In fact if we could just drop these antiquated labels produced by a racist society that would be cool.
 

Dark Ninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,070
Are you only talking about single player only games? Multiplayer games have a lot of diversity in them and have continued to expand their diversity. Then you have to define what you mean by main protagonist in a those games.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
Also came to my mind. I think most people just want to see badass black people, Black Panther style. Not true diversity for diversities sake. Kinda racist too if you think about it.

giphy.gif


"Hey everyone, all diversity matters. Specificity makes YOU the racist."

One of the most sniveling posts I've ever seen here.
 

Much

The Gif That Keeps on Giffing
Member
Feb 24, 2018
6,067
Yes, more representation is good and we need more black characters. I feel like you're downplaying the rather quick progress that has been made at putting women in leading roles in games within recent years though, regardless of skin colour. We've also had women from various backgrounds - not boiling down to exclusively American or British.

Nevertheless, the last game I remember playing as a black lead was Crysis 3. That was it. I don't think I've played a game with a female black lead though. I'm only talking about single-player games here, because MP games have been quite diverse.
 

EarthPainting

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,875
Town adjacent to Silent Hill
It seems odd to take umbridge with Nontnod who have gone out of their way since then (5 years is a very short amount of time for a game developer) to create a game doing a lot for lesbian representation, and who's upcoming game seems to deal with Latino representation in a way that's not only uncliche and thoughtful, but actually does a seemingly huge service to the representation of men who aren't violent ultra masculine killing machines. I agree wholeheartedly that we need more minority representation in games, but dontnod are definitely part of the solution.
This is unfortunately the result of having to rely on only a handful of studios making an effort. When Life is Strange 2 showed their Latino protags, many people seemed disappointed because that just meant one fewer developer was bothering with LGBT protags. It's a little selfish, but also completely understandable. If more studios embraced diversity, there would be less infighting.
 

AudioEppa

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,639
I don't usually talk in these topics, so I apologize if my wording isn't sensitive.

I'm all for diversity in general. But the conversation that I don't see often or haven't looked hard into enough is.

We like to see more representation in main characters, But if developers don't see it for their game vision, Do we want them to force it or be genuine?

We all have our different opinions on what a generic white character is. I guess I personally have high standards for what I want to see of none white characters after years of low representation.

Don't just do it, actually give a fuck is all I'm saying.
 
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Deleted member 426

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,273
Yes more diversity in general. Not just related to skin colour: you hardly see any culture represented well other than white anglo Saxon in my opinion.

It's frankly boring to see the same protagonists over and over again.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
I don't usually talk in these topics, so I apologize if my wording isn't sensitive.

I'm all for diversity in general. But the conversation that I don't see often or haven't looked hard enough is. We like to see more representation in main characters, But if developers don't see it for their game vision, Do we want them to force it or be genuine?

We all have our different opinions on what a generic white character is. I guess I personally have high standards for what I want to see of none white characters.
Ah yes "the vision", Era's favorite argument. Can't interrupt that in the slightest. Games and movies aren't made by a shit ton of different people with differing perspectives. Or maybe they're just made by a group of people who look the same with the same limited perspective.

That's not exactly what was said lol

I find this post more disgusting to be Franck
They literally called the OP racist.

Don't try me because I've seen this shit from people all the time and will gladly call it out. The request makes people uncomfortable and they try to wave it away under the guise of appearing more progressive and its bullshit and pretty damn obvious.
 

EarthPainting

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,875
Town adjacent to Silent Hill
I don't usually talk in these topics, so I apologize if my wording isn't sensitive.

I'm all for diversity in general. But the conversation that I don't see often or haven't looked hard enough is. We like to see more representation in main characters, But if developers don't see it for their game vision, Do we want them to force it or be genuine?

We all have our different opinions on what a generic white character is. I guess I personally have high standards for what I want to see of none white characters.
It leads to vicious cycles, I'm afraid. Diverse protagonists aren't given a chance because they aren't seen as safe enough ideas, and they can't prove themselves because they aren't given enough chances. This makes most publishers fall back on the presumed "default". Similar things happen in the creative process, where people often create variations of what they know. If they aren't exposed to a broader range of things, they'll probably continue to work within their bubble. All of these factors also influence the types of people who might get inspired to create things.

So you're not wrong that "forcing" representation might seem iffy, but I think some serious conscious efforts can have important ripple effects. I'm convinced that in many cases, the protagonist's race or gender doesn't really matter to the creators, and it's fairly easy to do your part in these cases. It's both important to minorities and majorities alike.
 
Oct 25, 2017
56,651
Kinda crazy to see the thread was instantly derailed because Op only asked for black ppl anybody else could've simply made a thread for other cultures and races kinda hard not to se an ulterior motive
 

Maligna

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,806
Canada
In any game that has a character creator, I always make a black female. I like to contribute to a diverse game world and to have a unique look, in multiplayer games especially.

In GTA online for example, I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say it's probably like 1 in 100 players will have a black female avatar.
 

Mr Satan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
970
They literally called the OP racist.

Don't try me because I've seen this shit from people all the time and will gladly call it out. The request makes people uncomfortable and they try to wave it away under the guise of appearing more progressive and its bullshit and pretty damn obvious.
This is too hostile to continue, but I don't think that's quite what happened here.

Regardless, I wish more games took their characters seriously, and in turn the make-up of their characters with more drive.


wait a second

ulterior motive?
lol
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
This is too hostile to continue, but I don't think that's quite what happened here.

Regardless, I wish more games took their characters seriously, and in turn the make-up of their characters with more drive.
I'm not being hostile, I'm being straightforward. Are we doing the civility thing now? Does my tone seem too aggressive?
 

captainpat

Member
Nov 15, 2017
877
We like to see more representation in main characters, But if developers don't see it for their game vision, Do we want them to force it or be genuine?

I can not recall a instance of a developer being forced to diversify their cast but there are already numerous stories of devs wanting to have non-white male characters and being shot down by the publishers.
 
Aug 29, 2018
1,089
It leads to vicious cycles, I'm afraid. Diverse protagonists aren't given a chance because they aren't seen as safe enough ideas, and they can't prove themselves because they aren't given enough chances. This makes most publishers fall back on the presumed "default". Similar things happen in the creative process, where people often create variations of what they know. If they aren't exposed to a broader range of things, they'll probably continue to work within their bubble. All of these factors also influence the types of people who might get inspired to create things.

So you're not wrong that "forcing" representation might seem iffy, but I think some serious conscious efforts can have important ripple effects. I'm convinced that in many cases, the protagonist's race or gender doesn't really matter to the creators, and it's fairly easy to do your part in these cases. It's both important to minorities and majorities alike.
I agree with this. It isn't as hard to get diversity in there in some sense when the cultures in many games aren't even representative of real life; they do not have to deal with that nuance if they just wanted to make a character like Link or Alloy have a different skin color. A lot of these white protagonist aren't relatable at all even for white people not like the bar is that high
 

Vishmarx

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,043
Kinda crazy to see the thread was instantly derailed because Op only asked for black ppl anybody else could've simply made a thread for other cultures and races kinda hard not to se an ulterior motive

Its always that though isnt it ? A zero sum game. Ive seen this brought up a number of times and you cant begin to imagine how incredibly racist this community comes off to asians and brown folk at times.

"Get your own thread ! this is a white people black people zone ."

I wonder why so many hide under the guise of diversity, progressiveness and growth when youre just asking for a big game/movie led by someone who looks somewhat like you.
 

Razor Mom

Member
Jan 2, 2018
2,546
United Kingdom
Thank you! People think we can't see through that shit.
What's my ulterior motive for wanting more Latina women in games? OP made a list of white women, none of them were Latina. Their point about every female protag being white is entirely true, and entirely relevant to my want for more Latina or native American representation, or anyone else wanting their race represented. Again, what's my ulterior motive?
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
Yes, OP. I'd like to play a AAA game lead by a black woman.

(And none of that anglo-western beauty standard "only light-skinned girls allowed" bullshit. I wanna see a chocolate or dark-skinned sister as a AAA videogame protagonist -- and also one that doesn't fall into the stereotypical baldhead badass, Angela Bassey / Ikora archetype that creators too often default to)
 

ffvorax

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,855
It's just a matter of time. In the last years we have now finally many women protagonist (I can't wait to play TLoU2), the next step will be to change their skin colour.
Well thinking about it we already recently have Chloe from Uncharted spin off that is in fact not a white woman, and obviously we have to add her partner!
I recently am playing Pokemon Ultramoon and you can choose skin colour for both men and women.
The Wolking Dead Telltale series started and finished with black man and women protagonist (it's sad they closed now so maybe we will not see a finale...), and let me say the first game has one of the best char. ever created.
I loved the idea that someone used in another thread to have a new Zelda where we can change Link appearance!

We are going on the right way in my hopinion!