I thought this horse was already buried but here we are. Regardless, I agree with everything Joe says here. His stance reflects mine exactly.
TL;DW: Cheating [in single player games] and rewinding shouldn't bother you.
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Game Sack: Cheating in Video Games, Where is the Line Drawn?
- Thread starter BigHatPaul
- Start date
I thought this horse was already buried but here we are. Regardless, I agree with everything Joe says here. His stance reflects mine exactly.
TL;DW: Cheating [in single player games] and rewinding shouldn't bother you.
It's fine on singleplayer because it affects no one but you. It's not on multiplayer because it affects the enjoyment of others.
Beyond stuff like using cheats/hacks in competitive multi and/or doing it in ways that negatively impact others' experiences (very clearly not okay), I would say I loved all the hacking and glitching that was prevalent in early GTA: Online.
Because of how restrictive and grindy GTA:O was, and the general GTA concept of breaking the law, I didn't mind people making fighter jets and buses their personal vehicles, and the billon dollar bounties on other players since it just made the game more exciting and fun.
I consider that kind of multiplayer a grey area when it comes to cheating—it could of course be abused to negatively affect others' experiences, but it was mostly just fun chaos.
Because of how restrictive and grindy GTA:O was, and the general GTA concept of breaking the law, I didn't mind people making fighter jets and buses their personal vehicles, and the billon dollar bounties on other players since it just made the game more exciting and fun.
I consider that kind of multiplayer a grey area when it comes to cheating—it could of course be abused to negatively affect others' experiences, but it was mostly just fun chaos.
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It never ends, it just lays dormant for a while before the ghost of Mike Matai reminds people you didn't by any stretch of the imagination beat that one game you did that one thing on.
It's fine in singleplayer games. A lot of old games pretty much required a cheat of some kind to get through it. I used to use extra live and level skip cheats all the time growing up.
It's funny that Mario is used on the thumbnail, I had to cheat an absurd amount of times to even have a chance of beating The Lost Levels a few months back, because the game is that evil.
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Man when it comes to Lost Levels I don't think anyone's gonna give you shit about that. The game really is evil.
Yeah, I pretty much 100% agree with the video.
Anything that is built into the game itself (outside of cheat codes and using other people's passwords), or built into the console (like the TG16 turbo switches) doesn't count as cheating. Any sort of external mod, use of cheat codes, save states etc; counts as pure cheating.
Ultimately it doesn't matter if you beat the game legit or not, as long as you enjoy it (at least for offline games; doing it online just means that you're ruining the game for other people). But you're also not really getting the intended experience if you're cheating to beat a game.
I wouldn't begrudge anyone for cheating to beat a game, but I also think that if you're using rewinding and save states to beat Super Mario Bros, or The Legend of Zelda on NES? You're not really gonna get the sense of satisfaction from conquering the challenge that makes these games so satisfying and fun to complete; ultimately, it is gonna cheapen the experience overall for you, and it is a bit of a shame (especially if you never even attempt to beat them legitimately).
Anything that is built into the game itself (outside of cheat codes and using other people's passwords), or built into the console (like the TG16 turbo switches) doesn't count as cheating. Any sort of external mod, use of cheat codes, save states etc; counts as pure cheating.
Ultimately it doesn't matter if you beat the game legit or not, as long as you enjoy it (at least for offline games; doing it online just means that you're ruining the game for other people). But you're also not really getting the intended experience if you're cheating to beat a game.
I wouldn't begrudge anyone for cheating to beat a game, but I also think that if you're using rewinding and save states to beat Super Mario Bros, or The Legend of Zelda on NES? You're not really gonna get the sense of satisfaction from conquering the challenge that makes these games so satisfying and fun to complete; ultimately, it is gonna cheapen the experience overall for you, and it is a bit of a shame (especially if you never even attempt to beat them legitimately).
I believe in the trophy/achievement community, the line is drawn at obtaining a trophy you would have no physical way of obtaining besides hacking the console/game itself and triggering the trophies.
For instance, if you were to earn a trophy from Uncharted 3's multiplayer mode today, you would probably be removed from the leaderboards of the major sites. But if you were to earn a trophy from something today like the Comrades multiplayer DLC portion of FFXV or some other delisted/offline game, it's possible for you to still have legitimately earned that (through luck or extra work) so they dont result in a ban.
Basically its only "cheating" if there is no other way to earn the trophy besides hacking/cfw, everything else (glitches, exploits, http proxy for old patches, etc) are fair game. Also I think people are banned if they are reported and have tons of trophies unlocked at impossible times or all at once or hundreds of "hidden" trophies, a sign of a trophy hacker.
For instance, if you were to earn a trophy from Uncharted 3's multiplayer mode today, you would probably be removed from the leaderboards of the major sites. But if you were to earn a trophy from something today like the Comrades multiplayer DLC portion of FFXV or some other delisted/offline game, it's possible for you to still have legitimately earned that (through luck or extra work) so they dont result in a ban.
Basically its only "cheating" if there is no other way to earn the trophy besides hacking/cfw, everything else (glitches, exploits, http proxy for old patches, etc) are fair game. Also I think people are banned if they are reported and have tons of trophies unlocked at impossible times or all at once or hundreds of "hidden" trophies, a sign of a trophy hacker.
I don't understand why people try to hack achievements. It's generally super obvious that it happened (impossible timestamps etc.) and the community sites are going to detect it and ban you anyway. So what's the point.
Agreed.
Sure sometimes players would end up getting screwed over but on the whole the ability to have pretty much unlimited money just made the game way more fun for more people. The thing that really suffered was Rockstar's microtransaction sales, and who's gonna cry over that.
So I don't really agree that it's as simple as people in here are making out. Sometimes multiplayer cheating is acceptable (as long as it's accessible to everyone I guess).
I've used this analogy before, but using cheats to me is a bit like reading the Spark Notes summary of a piece of literature.
Obviously you're welcome to do it and no one is going to stop you, but on the other hand you still haven't really read Great Expectations if all you did was go through the supplemental study guide.
Obviously you're welcome to do it and no one is going to stop you, but on the other hand you still haven't really read Great Expectations if all you did was go through the supplemental study guide.
Also chiming in with the "as long as it doesn't affect anyone" sentiment. So Multiplayer. And even there I think there's grey zones.
Like does cheating through Sekiro make it a different experience and go against the purpose the developers intended for it to have? Yes. Do I care how someone else played a game? No. I had my experience and my definition of fun just happened to align with the one the developer intended. If yours was different, why should I care about you cheating through that game?
As for multiplayer grey zones: A japanese FF14 player was recently harassed for using lewd mods and a zoomhack (for better screenshots mostly). These don't really affect others so I don't care. Sure the zoomhack is a bit debatable, but if that's an unfair advantage, so is buying an ultra wide screen :p
EDIT: For a personal example: I used the shiv glitch to get through TLOU Grounded. I still feel accomplished having beaten it and no one can take that away from me. It's just that shivs are annoying and it was plenty hard with them so whatever.
Like does cheating through Sekiro make it a different experience and go against the purpose the developers intended for it to have? Yes. Do I care how someone else played a game? No. I had my experience and my definition of fun just happened to align with the one the developer intended. If yours was different, why should I care about you cheating through that game?
As for multiplayer grey zones: A japanese FF14 player was recently harassed for using lewd mods and a zoomhack (for better screenshots mostly). These don't really affect others so I don't care. Sure the zoomhack is a bit debatable, but if that's an unfair advantage, so is buying an ultra wide screen :p
EDIT: For a personal example: I used the shiv glitch to get through TLOU Grounded. I still feel accomplished having beaten it and no one can take that away from me. It's just that shivs are annoying and it was plenty hard with them so whatever.
I never got the appeal of taking away all challenge in single player games when I was younger, now as an adult with kids and a full time job, I'm fine lowering difficulty all the way or using built in chests to get past a section I frankly don't have time for. Never cheat in multi-player, it's a waste of time for everyone
Oh, also, I never would have beat ".hack" without a game genie to give me gate keys, I don't know what they were thinking with those
Oh, also, I never would have beat ".hack" without a game genie to give me gate keys, I don't know what they were thinking with those
As the video points out using features like rewind and save states area good way to learn the game so that you can beat it for real
Some people just like the high context-less number on their profile I guess, I dont get it either. It's also pretty easy to look at someone's list and figure it out on the console itself, I had one friend on there with 250+ platinums on the counter, but I could only see around 100 of the actual platinums on his list. A hacker that's ashamed, basically
Joe's comment about the value of bragging on the school yard when it comes to beating videogames is on the money.
unless you're cheating in a multiplayer game and ruining other peoples' experiences, if you're having fun, there shouldn't be any rules.
unless you're cheating in a multiplayer game and ruining other peoples' experiences, if you're having fun, there shouldn't be any rules.
Cheating in SP is perfectly fine, as others have said. Sometimes you want to turn on God Mode and wreck some AI fools and you should be able to without judgement.
And yet some people will have the audacity to gatekeep and say you "didn't play Sekiro".
i'm not one for youtube walk throughs, but my sekiro experience was enhanced by it.
even when you were told how to beat a boss, you still had to go out and execute it.
I agree that multiplayer online games should be left alone. However in single player games I like to try to limit the amount of cheating I do.
I only use cheats in very old games with no saves and very obtuse difficulty curves. Even then, depending on the game, I try to find a balance where I am able to have some sort of challenge but not something that makes me extremely frustrated.
For example I might tell myself only to use save states at the start of a level.
I once save scummed through a game of sonic two but I wasn't having that much fun. It was interesting to see all the things I would never do but without that lack of challenge, the game wasn't as enjoyable.
I only use cheats in very old games with no saves and very obtuse difficulty curves. Even then, depending on the game, I try to find a balance where I am able to have some sort of challenge but not something that makes me extremely frustrated.
For example I might tell myself only to use save states at the start of a level.
I once save scummed through a game of sonic two but I wasn't having that much fun. It was interesting to see all the things I would never do but without that lack of challenge, the game wasn't as enjoyable.
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Dave left for time constraint reasons. He has made a cameo appearance since. He just doesn't have the time right now for it.
Yep, who cares what others do when it doesn't affect others?
kind of did a similar thinng. I modded my PS4 save and enjoyed it all the way through. Did the same with other souls games, but i remain offline doing so.
If I hadn't cheated in final fantasy 7-9 as a non English speaker, I'd never had fallen in love with the series, I'd never had been played all of the games, I'd never had seen the famous death scene, defeated ultimecia and discovered who kuja really was. So yeah, I'm glad I cheated as a child.
I wish console games had cheats. Disable online and trophies/achievements and let people play how they want.
It would probably be way more effort than it's worth thesedays but I loved the silly cheats games in the 90s had like TOCA Touring Cars where you could unlock a tank.
It would probably be way more effort than it's worth thesedays but I loved the silly cheats games in the 90s had like TOCA Touring Cars where you could unlock a tank.
Online? Fuck off
Offline? Who cares? Like atleast have the awareness you maybe have a skewed perspective on certain things, but that isn't always a negative either.
Offline? Who cares? Like atleast have the awareness you maybe have a skewed perspective on certain things, but that isn't always a negative either.
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I meant to quote this because I'm part of the community as well. At least in the Steam community (can't speak for PSN personally, though I do hunt there), there's one tracker I'm a part of in Discord that gets at least 10 reports a day of hackers and that's just maybe 3-4 users reporting on one Discord. So you're definitely going to get outted. It just isn't worth it. Yeah, it looks nice I guess but kind of takes away the whole purpose of achievements. Plus, why join a tracker in the first place knowing full well you're fucking up leaderboards? Really annoying. Oh and it also bugs me that across all platforms that encounter hacked achievements it's going to mess up the global rarity of it all.
One thing I do not agree with that has been let slide (but maybe cause it's so old) is the use of console commands in Fallout 3 to automatically unlock achievements on GFWL. That's bullshit.
I actually like that for some console games (like the LEGO games and GTA 3) cheats don't disable trophies/achievements. It's way faster to plow through when you got a ton of games looking you in the face and you wanna get them out the way real quick. Plus LEGO games are silly, anyway, the cheats just add to that ridiculousness imo. At any rate, you may have made the achievement easier to get, but you're still doing the leg work. It isn't like the Fallout 3 example where it just automatically unlocks. Sometimes it can still be a grind and take a while.
I don't give the slightest, most miniscule fuck about what people do in SP games. Enjoy them however you want. Don't bring that shit to MP games where the expectation exists that we're playing under the same rules and conditions. You are ruining the experience when you cheat in MP games and deserve a swift ban.
100% this. I love messing around with codes but I would never use them for an unfair advantage while playing against others.
