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Oct 25, 2017
4,179
For several years now, I've had the sinking belief that the broad "gamer" culture is increasingly toxic, not just in terms of message board or twitter arguments or movements like Gamergate, but in the way that many of the biggest companies in the business, particularly those such as Sony, EA and Microsoft engage with and foster that culture. Earlier today, Sony wrapped up its Paris Games Week presentation, a stream being watched by thousands of people with an interest in games around the world. Jim Ryan proclaimed how there had never been a better time for gamers, and then showed us a brand new trailer from one of Sony's most anticipated games, The Last of Us Part II. For all of the people watching the presentation, without warning, we were greeted with what can only be described as torture porn. Numerous gruesome acts were committed against women; a couple of things even being so unsettling that I had to turn away from my computer for a second.

Now, before people jump on my case, I want to state that I'm not passing any sort of preemptive judgement on what The Last of Us Part II will be. It's entirely possible t hat within the game this will all be handled delicately, used to create a very real point about violence in our culture, and that the story will justify these moments being in the game. That's not what this thread is about. Even if the game justifies all of these moments, they'll be coming in context within the game. I'm also sure that there will be a few reviewers who give people a heads up before the game comes out about possible trigger warnings for people who have been in situations similar to those depicted in the game, or who are particularly sensitive to such matters. But what we saw earlier today was a trailer being shown to thousands of people without warning of any sort of content. This is how Sony chose to sell this game. As people in the audience "ooh"ed and cheered as we saw some really horrifying stuff, I found myself wondering if this is what the audience of games is today.

Tough stories, and games that hit on challenging subject matters should absolutely exist, but I also think that it does the medium no favors to sell a game with a trailer like that. When movies hit on similar subject matter, they don't usually put out trailers showing 2-3 minutes of raw torture porn, particularly in the previews before a PG-13 movie or at a trade show or convention (that's the best equivalent I can come up with for what Sony's event would be). Instead, trailers usually are more suggestive than revealing, letting people know about the tone and content of the movie without subjecting people to a relentless display of violence and gore when they were just expecting to see a short trailer.

I don't think the way that The Last of Us Part II was shown off today does the game any favors, nor does it really do the medium any favors if we're interested in making video games a more welcoming environment where everyone can feel safe and welcome. To reiterate, the game should absolutely be allowed to exist in its current form, but I don't think that within the current social climate, this is the right way to sell the game. A trailer like this would work better being put out online with a very strong content warning beforehand, perhaps also accompanied by an interview discussing the need to dispaly such content in the game, how it is serving the themes of the story, and an assurance that the development team are aware of how it could make people feel and how they're committed to be sensitive in their handling of it.

Instead, it was presented for everyone to see as an obvious example of why this is the best time ever to be a "gamer", with the implication being that this is the sort of game that any real "gamer" would love to play. I think that this is a bit of a troubling notion, and I hope that this is something that we can start to push back against over the next few years. We've made some strides in recent years to try to become more welcoming, but there's still a lot of work left to be done, especially by some of the biggest names in the medium.
 

Deleted member 1062

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,160
I hope that in the context of the actual game, that scene will be better but as a random bit of shock value it just felt exploitative and a little gross
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,212
Greater Vancouver
This isn't new. I remember the original Last of Us live demo with a guy begging for mercy before being shotgunned in the face being met with uproarious screams of excitement.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,964
I pretty much agree with all of it. While I don't doubt the moment in the context of the game will be fine, choosing to show whats essentially the 2nd look of the game with torture porn is baffling. Like did they reveal Wolfenstein II with decapitations or GTA V with that torture scene?
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
I'd also note that the Detroit trailer was really off-tone for what is supposed to be a kind of celebratory event or press conference. Crazy dad kills his child......then in a later alternate scenario his child kills him.

I don't really have any problem with this content, but it's crazy to me that anyone would want to put it as their "best foot forward" in a major press event.
 

Jessie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,921
Paired with the Detroit trailer, it really did have a bad aftertaste. Sony could've toned it down
 

2112

Using multiple alt accounts
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,696
Portsmouth
Screw politics, I am very glad games are pushing the limits further and further, more nudity and violence is always welcome in mature rated games. There will always be Mario Karts and Minecrafts for those who aren't interested in this type of game. We are adults no?
 

BBboy20

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,011
Neil mentioned this game's theme being about hate so I guess he thought vulgar violence is a way to give you a taste of his "theme".

Though, maybe it's irrelevant when most of the audience don't know this and probably don't care.
 

Booker.DeWitt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,844
Why does the game developers need to explain their intentions? What is the problem is somebody wants to create a very violent and visceral game, even if there is no great story?
The trailer was great, and does not need any explanation if you know TLOU universe. People are living like savages, but sometimes you see humanity. that is the premise of the game.

What is the problem if somebody wants to make a movie or a game that is violent? I am a big fan of horror movies like Leatherface, Friday 13th, Saw, etc...

Let the game developers do their thing, even if it is PG-18.
There is an audience for every type of movie. Let the creativity flow.
 

WhiskerFrisker

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,349
New York City
For several years now, I've had the sinking belief that the broad "gamer" culture is increasingly toxic, not just in terms of message board or twitter arguments or movements like Gamergate, but in the way that many of the biggest companies in the business, particularly those such as Sony, EA and Microsoft engage with and foster that culture. Earlier today, Sony wrapped up its Paris Games Week presentation, a stream being watched by thousands of people with an interest in games around the world. Jim Ryan proclaimed how there had never been a better time for gamers, and then showed us a brand new trailer from one of Sony's most anticipated games, The Last of Us Part II. For all of the people watching the presentation, without warning, we were greeted with what can only be described as torture porn. Numerous gruesome acts were committed against women; a couple of things even being so unsettling that I had to turn away from my computer for a second.

Now, before people jump on my case, I want to state that I'm not passing any sort of preemptive judgement on what The Last of Us Part II will be. It's entirely possible t hat within the game this will all be handled delicately, used to create a very real point about violence in our culture, and that the story will justify these moments being in the game. That's not what this thread is about. Even if the game justifies all of these moments, they'll be coming in context within the game. I'm also sure that there will be a few reviewers who give people a heads up before the game comes out about possible trigger warnings for people who have been in situations similar to those depicted in the game, or who are particularly sensitive to such matters. But what we saw earlier today was a trailer being shown to thousands of people without warning of any sort of content. This is how Sony chose to sell this game. As people in the audience "ooh"ed and cheered as we saw some really horrifying stuff, I found myself wondering if this is what the audience of games is today.
Yes, it is. Violence is glorfied in nearly all enteratinment mediums of the west, especially in the United States. I'm not quite sure what exactly you're arguing here. You want to push back against violence?
 

Jonbjohns

Member
Oct 27, 2017
123
Ending with that trailer was really weird. As someone who hasn't played the first one, I don't understand how it gives hype for this game.

Was there a content warning for the presentation? For being like 9am here, I just felt that it was much too early to watch someone "get their wings clipped"
 

Patapuf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,416
I mean, lets not forget that mario just came out this week to the glee of all.

The tone of the TLOU trailer is the exact same as the E3 presentation where our glorious hero shoots his begging enemy in the face. The game ended up being brutal but not over the top "torture porn" brutal.

I'd say we have fewer of those kinds of games than we used to.
 

Fireblend

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,454
Costa Rica
That is incredibly well put, OP. I really don't think people should be subject to that sort of content unless they are seeking it out or aware that it is coming. I'm all for variety in videogames, but maybe don't show me torture porn in a press conferenc without a heads up. Some of that was disgusting and off-putting and not everyone has the same tolerance threshold to that kind of content.
 

GinoFelino

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,234
Very much agreed OP

In my opinion, violence purely as shock value is as played out in games as it is in other media

Games are a bit behind the curve in figuring out it's often unnecessary and self-indulgent
 

Hoo-doo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,292
The Netherlands
They should have given a warning and I don't feel like this scene is the best choice for a big trailer reveal like this.

But I am absolutely of the opinion that games should be able to tell stories as gruesome and raw as they see fit.
I don't feel that the depressing setting of The Last of Us reflects poorly on the medium at all, it only reflects poorly on the marketing themes that are prevalent right now.

And it 'being the best time to be a gamer' has in my opinion, jack shit to do with what was shown today. It's not Naughty Dog's job to make the gaming sphere more welcoming, there's thousands of other games that tackle entirely different themes that are very welcoming and inviting. Entertainment doesn't have to come with bubbly colours and PG-13 ratings out of fear of scaring off people. It is the best time to be a gamer because there's tons of games coming out with varying themes and audiences. That's what the slogan is aiming for, and honestly, they are right. Never before has there been such a diversity and breadth of games to choose from.

So in short, I blame the marketing department for being a bit tone-deaf about the trailer they showed, but I feel there's absolutely nothing wrong with content like this in games.
 

Ebullientprism

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,529
I'd also note that the Detroit trailer was really off-tone for what is supposed to be a kind of celebratory event or press conference. Crazy dad kills his child......then in a later alternate scenario his child kills him.

I don't really have any problem with this content, but it's crazy to me that anyone would want to put it as their "best foot forward" in a major press event.

Its hard not see this stuff cynically. There are usually two outcomes when you put out a trailer like that. Shock or outrage. Both of those lead to a lot of publicity.
 

Briarios

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,238
Screw politics, I am very glad games are pushing the limits further and further, more nudity and violence is always welcome in mature rated games. There will always be Mario Karts and Minecrafts for those who aren't interested in this type of game. We are adults no?

I don't think more violence has ever been a problem ...

And, I disagree completely -- it's much easier to find a polished game with gratuitous violence than it is to find one like Mario Kart. I think part of Nintendo's resurgence is people yearning for kinder games.
 

Mafro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,365
This isn't new. I remember the original Last of Us live demo with a guy begging for mercy before being shotgunned in the face being met with uproarious screams of excitement.
Yeah I remember that at E3 years ago. Theatre was whooping and cheering at Joel brutally killing him.
 
OP
OP
KuwabaraTheMan
Oct 25, 2017
4,179
Good point on the Detroit trailer, too. I think The Last of Us thing just kind of wound up drowning that out in my mind.

Screw politics, I am very glad games are pushing the limits further and further, more nudity and violence is always welcome in mature rated games. There will always be Mario Karts and Minecrafts for those who aren't interested in this type of game.

Yes, there should be a place for that sort of content in games. But do we need extended torture porn sequences as the capping off of a trade show event being watched by thousands of people of all ages.

Like I said, I'm not opposed to the existence of the content as long as it is being handled sensitively, but it's a really bizarre way to sell your game to a mass audience, and it left me feeling pretty weirded out about the whole thing. Movies with this sort of subject matter aren't throwing it in their trailers that run before Spider-Man, but Sony thinks its fine to show this within 20 minutes of their Spider-Man game with no warning? That's a bit weird in my mind.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,212
Greater Vancouver
Screw politics, I am very glad games are pushing the limits further and further, more nudity and violence is always welcome in mature rated games. There will always be Mario Karts and Minecrafts for those who aren't interested in this type of game. We are adults no?
Not sure the relevance of this. Being an adult doesn't mean I demand more nudity and violence.
 

RoboPlato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,809
Part of why The Last of Us was so effective and memorable was because it was the only game where the violence made me as a player feel uncomfortable. However, showing violent scenes out of the context of the narrative and gameplay flow dramatically lowers their impact in game and can make it seem like the devs are missing the point, even if the in game context is appropriate. I'm all for games to have and explore content like this but as the only solid piece of marketing material put forward, it seems a bit tone deaf.
 

Kenzodielocke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,849
I'll wait and decide after I played the game, context matters a lot. The violence in TLoU felt appropriate. We'll see, it made me feel uneasy, but maybe that's the point?
 

Carfo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,857
We've come a long way since Night Trap, huh.
I just watched the trailer and it was pretty disturbing, but the only people who will be holding this game as some kind of example of where gamer culture is will be uninformed, agenda-driven commentators, similar to the original Mass Effect being described as a sex simulator on Fox news.
It certainly doesn't do anything positive for gamer culture, but are developers really looking at their works of art and the story they want to tell and going, "hmm, I wonder what the knee-jerk reaction to this is going to be and how is it going to affect the industry". Hopefully, and based on this trailer, the answer is No.
 

ibyea

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,164
Screw politics, I am very glad games are pushing the limits further and further, more nudity and violence is always welcome in mature rated games. There will always be Mario Karts and Minecrafts for those who aren't interested in this type of game. We are adults no?
I suggest you read the post more carefully.
 

shaneo632

Weekend Planner
Member
Oct 29, 2017
29,008
Wrexham, Wales
People enjoy seeing violence on screen because it's cathartic and temporarily satisfies their own morbid curiosity about mortality. I don't think it's a big deal. I'd rather see violence on screen portrayed with gritty, real consequence like this rather than just flippantly murdering dozens of people for a x1000 bonus or something.
 

marrec

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,775
Screw politics, I am very glad games are pushing the limits further and further, more nudity and violence is always welcome in mature rated games. There will always be Mario Karts and Minecrafts for those who aren't interested in this type of game. We are adults no?

I don't think it has anything to do with politics but instead was a weird tonal shift in the presentation that left a bad taste in many peoples mouths (including mine). Naughty Dog tried to sell the original Last of Us as some kind of in your face brutal schlock for that first E3 2012 trailer, which belied the nuance of the actual release.

I'm assuming that the same will be said here, but at a conference like this the fetishization of that kind of violence stood out quite a bit and left me a little less hyped for TLOU2 than I was before.

Basically, Naughty Dog needs to get better at this. Violence in and of itself isn't a problem, thinking so is a gross misreading of peoples issues with the trailer.
 

Allseeingeye

Banned for having an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
Why are games being judged differently than movies? It's ok for Movies but not games? People want games to be taken serious..... There is a huge double standard. There is nothing wrong with it, it's an adult game with Adult themes...Games are not just for kids, and we don't know the context of said scenes.
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,934
Screw politics, I am very glad games are pushing the limits further and further, more nudity and violence is always welcome in mature rated games. There will always be Mario Karts and Minecrafts for those who aren't interested in this type of game. We are adults no?
This is how I feel about it. The trailer was brutal. The Last of Us takes place in a brutal world.
 

MilkBeard

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,780
Companies trying to get that shock effect. I agree it was weird and gruesome to show something like that out of context. It was an impressive scene, but not because of the gory parts.
 

Moosichu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
898
Screw politics, I am very glad games are pushing the limits further and further, more nudity and violence is always welcome in mature rated games. There will always be Mario Karts and Minecrafts for those who aren't interested in this type of game. We are adults no?

? Have you read the OP?

To the Op: Maybe a 18+ warning would have been good. I didn't have a problem with the trailer, but I can see where you are coming from. It's exactly what the Last of Us is. But the cheering is always odd.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Glad to see I was not the only one disturbed by the level of violence in The Last of Us II. I mean, it's kind of funny that God of War was one of the least violent games in the entire reel.
 

OG_Thrills

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,655
Mike Ybarra hanging out with Mooch and Crapgamer in their podcast and handing out game codes in their podcast is more alarming. He knowingly chose to associate with a man who laughed at a developer who lost his child to cancer in order to promote XBOX.

This is way more cause for concern than intellectual property specifically designed for adults. Of all the positive gaming and XBOX podcasts out there his choice of association is shocking. That is more of an issue to me.
 

Allseeingeye

Banned for having an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
I don't think it has anything to do with politics but instead was a weird tonal shift in the presentation that left a bad taste in many peoples mouths (including mine). Naughty Dog tried to sell the original Last of Us as some kind of in your face brutal schlock for that first E3 2012 trailer, which belied the nuance of the actual release.

I'm assuming that the same will be said here, but at a conference like this the fetishization of that kind of violence stood out quite a bit and left me a little less hyped for TLOU2 than I was before.

Basically, Naughty Dog needs to get better at this.


Why and how so? Violence is not taboo, in that world it makes sense. Also, TLOu 1 was as dark, people are revising history here.
 

Deleted member 6949

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,786
We won't know if it's accurate marketing or not until the game comes out. The first The Last of Us was full of shivings, people catching of fire, people's heads popping like a balloon, etc.
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
I am okay with it in games of course but, as you touch upon, the issue is with how this was presented. This was unadulterated violence presented without context. Kind of just for the sake of it, without knowing who these characters were, or what was going on. In the game, it'll fit for sure, giving the benefit of the doubt to Naughty Dog. But in a conference like this, that trailer did nothing for me. It didn't make me more excited for the game, and it didn't really even make me think about "how did they end up in this situation?" because I was too pre-occupied about whether that one woman was going to cut open that other woman's stomach or not.

Always weirds me out when crowds are clapping and cheering for what is just a lot of blood and killing going on in trailers. I don't mean praising exciting gameplay of which that is the end result, but purely for the violence. Odd stuff.
 

Deft Beck

Member
Oct 26, 2017
844
Space
You can just not watch the trailer and buy a different game. There are plenty of engaging nonviolent games available, even from major publishers.
 

Dweebo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
83
I had to turn away at parts too but I appreciate that the last game feeling so much like a movie-quality story and atmosphere and this seems to be of that level as well. People in an apocoplypse setting I feel would not be very nice people to be around haha.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,964
Why are games being judged differently than movies? It's ok for Movies but not games? People want games to be taken serious..... There is a huge double standard. There is nothing wrong with it, it's an adult game with Adult themes...Games are not just for kids, and we don't know the context of said scenes.

Because Saw isn't the marquee movie franchise that gets 200 best of the year awards and 10/10s from every outlet, and even Saw wouldn't have trailer that graphic, and theyd probably have some context there too

and not knowing the context IS THE PROBLEM here.
 

Fireblend

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,454
Costa Rica
Screw politics, I am very glad games are pushing the limits further and further, more nudity and violence is always welcome in mature rated games. There will always be Mario Karts and Minecrafts for those who aren't interested in this type of game. We are adults no?
This seems a bit missing the point. It's not the actual "violence in videogames" OP has an issue with, but a highly graphical, violent trailer being shown in a press conference being streamed to anyone without warning. Beyond whether the trailer was a good trailer or not (it could be argued that it was intended to be controversial and get publicity that way, which in turn can be considered malicious in nature), people have different tolerance levels to that sort of content. Also, as far as I'm aware the original TLoU wasn't celebrated for its violence but storytelling and atmosphere.
 

BuBu Jenkins

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,064
I have no issues whatsoever with the brutality shown. You know what you signed up for with the series and what to expect. ND going all in on the bleak brutal post apocalyptic setting and showing upfront a taste of that brutality without sugarcoating it is commendable.
 

Jessie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,921
Screw politics, I am very glad games are pushing the limits further and further, more nudity and violence is always welcome in mature rated games. There will always be Mario Karts and Minecrafts for those who aren't interested in this type of game. We are adults no?

Featuring straight up torture porn unexpectedly at a conference is crazy. It's like playing 5 minutes of Jigsaw before a movie starts.
 

Allseeingeye

Banned for having an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
Because Saw isn't the marquee movie franchise that gets 200 best of the year awards and 10/10s from every outlet, and even Saw wouldn't have trailer that graphic, and theyd probably have some context there too

and not knowing the context IS THE PROBLEM here.
This was nothing like saw....terrible analogy. God father, Goodfellas, many other films are brutal people are ok with it because movies.....Games want to be taken serious, but when a dev like ND does something like this peeps complain,
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,398
It's a horror game so quite obviously it has torture porn. It doesn't feel out of context for what the game is going to be about. But I agree that showing it front and center for a trailer is just weird. Seems like we're still not past the let's show visceral throat stabbing, this is so matoor for 15 year old matoor gamers. Sony should get some more class, but eh we're talking about it so it's working.