• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,570
Former Bioware general manager Aaryn Flynn has elaborated on some of the issues presented by the Frostbite engine, comparing EA's internal technology to an F1 racing car for both its huge power and the difficulty of extracting a peak level of performance.

"I came to learn over the course of my technology career -- about seven or eight years as a programmer -- that I certainly wasn't the smartest programmer out there. But what I did really enjoy doing was working with people, to understand the problems they faced, and try and craft software that solved those problems. That became something I really loved doing.

"But then chapter two comes along, and we switched to an engine called Frostbite. And Frostbite is an EA internal engine; very powerful, fast, beautiful, purpose built to do some really cool stuff. But it's also extremely delicate and needs a huge crew."

Flynn compared the Frostbite Engine to a Formula One car, which can move incredibly fast and represents the pinnacle of a certain kind of tech. However, F1 cars are also very difficult to run at their peak, and prone to issues that need to be tended to by large groups of specialists.

"Incredible, impressive feats of technology, really at the bleeding edge of what's possible," Flynn said. "But they require a huge crew of folks to maintain them and get that optimum performance out of them. And that really is the metaphor for at least the earliest days of Frostbite."

"My experience with it was very much like this: you could do amazing things, go very fast in some elements, but very delicate and very hard to manage," he said.

Flynn noted that, despite Bioware having such tremendous potential capability at its disposal, "we were, in fact, slowing down." This is a "fascinating phenomenon" that Flynn was careful to say is relatively common when moving to more complicated and capable technology, which the games industry -- always hungry for "better and more beautiful content" -- inevitably does.

"It was getting harder and harder to make the content that people wanted," Flynn said of his experience with Frostbite. "It was harder and harder to move that content through these pipelines and do things. And even though we had more people -- we had more teams, more folks -- we were slowing down the rate at which we could build and craft these experiences."

 

QuantumZebra

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,304
Frostbite always seemed like the Pagani (or supercar) of game engines.

After seeing what it could do in Battlefield I knew it'd be a limitless engine, but probably hell to develop on.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,268
The news about Amy Hennig joining Skydance reminded me that her studio also had some real issues with frostbite. What a mess
 
Oct 27, 2017
15,010
I wonder if things would be different for Bioware now if they had been allowed to develop their last 3 games on Unreal Engine.
 

texhnolyze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,150
Indonesia
Yeah, it's not the first time that devs expressed their unpleasant experience with Frostbite. And Unreal 4 is not that great either with all the common issues across games.

Unity 5 games can't come soon enough.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Ditch it please and get up to speed with UE4. Gears 5 is spectacular.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
the graphical arms race is simultaneously the best and worst thing about new hardware. throw in an engine that's high maintenance, and you have a recipe for disaster
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,029
If Flynn is using the F1 car analogy, isn't this outing him as one of Schreier's sources on the Andromeda debacle, where the same analogy from a "source " was used?
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
Isn't this old news? I remember reading that Formula 1 analogy like two years ago. I also think the Frostbite issues were also uncovered after the problematic ME:A release. Definitely an interesting read, though.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,641
I think its a fair to phrase it while not throwing Frostbite (and by extension, a lot of the peeps he knows who still have to work with it daily) under a bus.
 

Oni

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
311
Frostbite really fucked EA outside of sports games.

They've suffered too imo. I'm playing FIFA on switch which isn't using Frostbite and the animations generally look better than the PS4 animations which look horrible and unnatural, with players just gliding about the pitch.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
giphy.gif
 

MAK11

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
473
The same can be said about literally ANY engine. Let's see how UE4 worked out for Respawn..oh ..right Jedi Fallen Order performance is a total mess...
 

NoPiece

Member
Oct 28, 2017
304
The same can be said about literally ANY engine. Let's see how UE4 worked out for Respawn..oh ..right Jedi Fallen Order performance is a total mess...

But this isn't about performance. ME:A wasn't a bad game because it couldn't hold 60FPS. It is about being productive and being able to make the game you want to make.

"It was getting harder and harder to make the content that people wanted," Flynn said of his experience with Frostbite. "It was harder and harder to move that content through these pipelines and do things. And even though we had more people -- we had more teams, more folks -- we were slowing down the rate at which we could build and craft these experiences."
 

Achtung

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,035
I realize its hard to dev on but if you play BFV ... the chaos.. and everything thats going on ill full frames its mind blowing an engine can handle it. I just wish it was easier to use for other devs as nobody but DICE seem to be able to make games that look this amazing.

 

seroun

Member
Oct 25, 2018
4,464
This was said so long ago? Or did I read this in a past life?

I think the guy who was stern in making every studio under EA use Frostbite is out now.

In any case, Bioware should move to Unreal Engine.
 

DieH@rd

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,560
The same can be said about literally ANY engine. Let's see how UE4 worked out for Respawn..oh ..right Jedi Fallen Order performance is a total mess...
You should not blame the entire engine.

Bend used UE4, and they crafted a great open world game in Days Gone.

Each project is different, each game can have its own issues.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
2009 is also where the BioWare path to tragedy began. I'm sure Flynn did his best but he even admits here that as a programmer he felt he wasn't the best, and moving on from there, eventually he was GM of 2, potentially 3 disasters or 4 if you really don't like Dragon Age Inquisition.

Of course, EA is a big factor too, especially Patrick Söderlund who probably wormed his beloved Frostbite Engine into Aaryn's brain making them shift to it before they would inevitably have been forced to do it, but overall, I can't help but think the landslide began slowly because BioWare shifted around its structure and put too much responsibility in Aaryn's hands, maybe more than he is capable of.

I'm sure Frostbite is a little rusty to work with on some levels. I cannot speak to any of its experience but I can also say that to me it smells like a blameshift, away from the fact that a lot of talented people left over the years, and I need to point no further than to what Dragon Age Inquisition was versus what Andromeda was. If Frostbite was so bad how come Inquisition at least has an overall more consistent aesthetic, face animation and RPG systems that work? I know, it's two different teams, but that's also the point. Not everything comes down to tools, a lot of it is also individual talent you have employed and their ability to adapt to unfamiliar software and tools.

When they started Mass Effect Unreal 3 couldn't do a thing. They had to code its math equation functions and send to Epic Games, which is what is still in the engine (An Ex-ME1 dev told me on Discord), and yet Frostbite could do more. What was stopping them from recoding the basics? Talent. Talent is what, or lack thereof.
 
Last edited:

Calabi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,483
Yeah, it's not the first time that devs expressed their unpleasant experience with Frostbite. And Unreal 4 is not that great either with all the common issues across games.

Unity 5 games can't come soon enough.

Yeah I was going to mention this. I wish more developers would start using Unity it's not without its problems but the speed you can iterate content, and they are putting performance and visuals at the heart of it. Triple AAA devs could do some interesting things with it.
 

MAK11

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
473
But this isn't about performance. ME:A wasn't a bad game because it couldn't hold 60FPS. It is about being productive and being able to make the game you want to make.
Both go hand in hand. UE4 is the opposite of Frostbite in that it's easier to integrate into a cc pipeline but total hell to extract performance out of it (unless you re-write most of it, especially the renderer, like the handful of studios who managed get shit done with it: Rocksteady (UE3), The Coalition, Rare). At the end of the day it's a shitty end result in the hands of the gamers.
 

LumberPanda

Member
Feb 3, 2019
6,324
If Flynn is using the F1 car analogy, isn't this outing him as one of Schreier's sources on the Andromeda debacle, where the same analogy from a "source " was used?
Could be. But it's also likely that this analogy came up in a conversation internally (in a meeting or at the water cooler), so multiple people thought of it that way.
 

devSin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,194
I mean, if you switch from an engine you built (Eclipse) or modified to suit your needs (UE3) to one that doesn't have tools for any of the content you try to make (because it's never been used on that type of game before), of course things are going to slow down.

There was no need to switch to it, and no need to stick with it once you truly figured out how difficult it was to work with.
 

Bjones

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,622
Ehh I am going to just say that the graphics and game engine wasn't anyone's complaints about any of this gens BioWare games.
 

MAK11

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
473
You should not blame the entire engine.

Bend used UE4, and they crafted a great open world game in Days Gone.

Each project is different, each game can have its own issues.
Who said I'm blaming the entire engine? I'm literally doing the opposite: switching engine isn't going to miraculously fix everything. Everybody's blaming Frostbite for Bioware's issue & saying "switch to UE4"..ok...
 

DieH@rd

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,560
Who said I'm blaming the entire engine? I'm literally doing the opposite: switching engine isn't going to miraculously fix everything. Everybody's blaming Frostbite for Bioware's issue & saying "switch to UE4"..ok...
And UE4 enabled them to create a stunning new game quickly. Sure, it has issues on launch, but many games do. Maybe they will fix it.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Who said I'm blaming the entire engine? I'm literally doing the opposite: switching engine isn't going to miraculously fix everything. Everybody's blaming Frostbite for Bioware's issue & saying "switch to UE4"..ok...
UE4 is more receptive to games they've been making, unlike Frostbite. it's not a ridiculous ask as you make it out to be
 

Dr. Ludwig

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,518
Manveer Heir (former Bioware) tore Frostbite a new asshole on twitter around the time of Kotaku's article on Anthem.
 

TheDudePT

Banned
Oct 3, 2019
189
Portugal
Why would they now use UE4 for Battlefield? Battlefield and Battlefront are great with the Frostbite engine.
Why use UE4 for Battlefield?

This is like asking any other developer with its own engine made by them to drop their own engine and use a third party one.
yea, probably. but Frostbite might have an easier time since it was built around those things
For what? Frostbite is meant to work with BF and FPS shooters. It was built for battlefield. Its making it do things outside of that context is the problem

I should've quoted the user above me that suggested it, I know Frostbite was "made for" Battlefield, I was wondering if UE4 could even accomplish the same thing.
 

kurahador

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,532
It sounds like the engine took alot of effort to do stuff outside of its specialties. Next Dragon Age made using Frostbite is worrying.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,484
Dallas, TX
A game engine as Formula 1 car feels so inherently misguided when the whole point of an engine is to provide tools to simplify a broad range of development. Of course you can get better performance out of something harder to use, but if the goal is always maximum performance, there would be no point to making engines at all, you'd just always be coding down to the metal. They took something clearly made for very specific tasks, and meant to be used by a very particular staff at DICE, and tried to apply it to everything because they just assumed the engine was magic, and they would never have to pay anyone else again.