Gamespot: Dark Souls is one of the most influential games of the 21st century

[hussien-11]

Is it that influential? I can't really think of many games that seem all that influenced by it?

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Dark Souls?
I can't think of a game with melee combat that wasn't inspired by DS one way or another:

Hollow Knight
Zelda Breath of the Wild
Sinner
Salt and Sanctuary
Code Vein
Nioh
Lords of the Fallen
The Surge
Dead Cells
Ashen
Titan Souls


and many others.

 

[maximumzero]

One of these days I'll have to give it a whirl. I feel like I've missed out on so many landmark titles of the last decade because of how much my tastes have changed.

 

[KORNdog]

GTA3 wasn't really that influential compared to other games here.

in terms of gunplay even GTA followed the formula that was set by Resident Evil 4.

in terms of open world design the industry followed The Elder Scrolls not GTA

The Witcher 3, Breath of the Wild and many other games, the biggest open world games out there, are influenced by Bethesda.

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You're trying to tell me that there are more games influenced by the likes of Skyrim then there are games influenced by gta?

Even if you mostly include urban city based open world games you have the saints row series, getaway, true crime, watchdogs, agents of mayhem, mafia, sleeping dogs...hell, Simpsons and Lego city undercover...etc. And that's not even including the stuff rockstar made afterwards like red dead or bully.

I find it difficult to believe Bethesda influenced much at all. Even the Witcher is mechanically and structurally quite different. It's the reason why betheasda games...faults and all, still feel utterly unique. GTA? Not so much...but that's the cost of being influential I guess.

 

[Mansa Mufasa]

It has to be a Tie between RE4 and DS (Demons or Dark) because Action games with Sword have changed for the better. Same for shooter Mechanics....I also want to say that Arkham Asylum's combat system should get an HM

 

[Manmademan]

It's funny you mention Uncharted since Uncharted 2 is widely considered an influential game and Uncharted 1 isn't.

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Uncharted 1 was PS3 game of the year at IGN, at least. It was one of the first significant games for that system. Uncharted 2 is a great game, but it doesn't innovate over Uncharted 2, it only refines the formula that Uncharted 1 invented. Saying "no one thinks uncharted 1 is influential" is flat out false. Uncharted 2 is by far the better game, but only because Naughty Dog was able to create the formula for success with Drake's Fortune.

Without the built in audience from UC1 being a hit, UC2 doesn't have the budget and doesn't have the sales to make it a smash hit. Uncharted 2 can't happen in a vacuum without UC1 preceding it, just as Dark Souls' success can't happen without Demon's Souls being developed first.

Spending "soul points" to upgrade your player? Starting classes that evolve over time into specialists OR jack of all trades? huge weapon gallery upgradable by elemental stones? Giant, screen filling crazy hard bosses? Invasions by other players? Players BEING a stage boss? Bloodstain retrieval of unused exp? Player phantoms telegraphing death? Messages left by other players? Hostile NPC's murdering other NPCs if you don't stop them? Hidden player NPC Quests? The entire quasi-medieval theme? Started with Demon's. That's where the formula comes from. Remove these things and you don't have a souls game at all.

Do you think Namco/Badai picks up Dark Souls as a high budget multiplatform title without Demon's Souls becoming a sleeper hit no one saw coming? spoiler alert: No.

But with the FF6 vs 7 comparison, yeah the tech is different, but FF6 had a huge cinematic focus which FF7 continued.

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The difference here is that it's not just something vague like "cinematic focus" (and FF4 would be where that started, really, not 6), it's literally EVERYTHING about Dark Souls is something that Demon's innovated first.

As far as sales go, I'm not seeing any reputable sales data for Demon's Souls. The 1.7 million is just an estimate by a Forbes article many years after the game came out with no indication of what they used to base that on.

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I linked an article with some sales numbers earlier in the thread that don't come from Forbes- but again no idea how reputable that is. The best way to determine how successful the game is though is how well it does on similar platforms. Otherwise you're arguing reach of the game, not the overall appeal. In terms of how well the console versions of Demon's and Dark did, every shred of information we have says the two were very close. within a half million to a million units.

As far as gameplay goes, Dark Souls made a number of changes which led to it achieving more widespread success, including the interconnected map, more emphasis on online, big improvements in resource management (flask system, no inventory limit, magic uses vs MP), and covenants.

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This isn't true at all- the interconnected world is a difference between the two, but Dark Souls didn't invent that- that's an innovation that goes back metroidvanias- and the interconnected world aspect completely ceases once you hit anor londo and no longer applies- after that the game is a series of dead ends that have to be teleported out of or backtracked.

There isn't "more emphasis on online." Demon's has a DEEPER online integration than dark does! Invasions were invented for that game, but so was world tendency (which Dark doesn't have). Unlike character tendency, World Tendency was inextricably linked to how the online community was doing in a particular world- moving it darker or lighter over time. Since there was one dedicated server for that game, Demons souls routinely did "pure black" or "pure white" events that would perma-shift everyone's world into an extreme state in which completely unique monsters, items, and phantoms would appear.

The Dark Souls Covenants are completely half assed in comparison- and half of them were flat out broken and didn't work as intended.

The resource management thing is different, but not necessarily an improvement. Flask vs. Grass, Inventory limit vs. no inventory limit is personal preference. And as for magic uses vs. MP- Dark Souls 3 went back to MP over Magic "Charges"- exactly as Demon's did in the first place.

 

[Barrel Cannon]

If we are talking consoles/PC then it's GTA 3 or HL2 easily. You can see the direct impacts both titles had on every game after them.

 

[FolderBrad]

The overwhelming dominance of the 360 in the US means that few people in the US actually played it.
Dark Souls was the first exposure most people had to the series.

Also, the naming switch means it isn't obvious there was a game BEFORE Dark Souls, so many people that might otherwise have checked it out don't realize there's a prequel game. Same thing happened when Soul Calibur blew up on Dreamcast and no one knew it was the second game in the series after Soul Edge/Soul Blade.

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This doesn't explain why informed people still barely recognize it. Demons Souls was basically the start of the series, naming aside.

Journalists and people here still barely mention it in discussion of its influence and as a series.

 

[MechanicalWall]

Some context for why I picked the poll options that I did, because I noticed how poorly most of them are doing:

- Dark Souls: the game the article is about, kind of obligatory to add it here.

- GTAIII: the game I think probably deserves the title. It basically created the open-world genre as we understand it today, and considering how many open-world games we have on the market, that's kind of a big deal. It also was one of the titles on the forefront of the 'games are too violent' campaigns waged in the past, though I don't know how relevant that is.

- Half-Life 2: probably the first relevant game to incorporate its physics engine into gameplay, and the importance of physics engines in games ever since has become increasingly prominent. Also the herald of Steam, as it was the first game that required you to install it to launch the game.

- Resident Evil 4: while it wasn't the first game to use the OTS perspective, it undeniably provided the template for how to implement it in shooters. That's on top of creating one of the most cohesive, 'cinematic' campaigns at the time; I would argue that along with God of War, it helped start the trend of more cinematic single-player modes, though that's certainly debatable.

- Diablo 2: a game that doesn't get the credit it deserves. Its style of looting mechanics laid the foundation for games like Borderlands, Destiny, and dozens of others. I might be misplacing credit for that, though.

- Skyrim: while GTAIII is definitely the grandfather of open-world games as we know them, Skyrim provided the template for the more RPG focused and 'go do whatever you want' open-world games of today.

- Devil May Cry: definitely a little more niche than everything above it, but not only did it just straight up invent the spectacle fighter genre, basically any 3D game that allows you to chain attacks together probably owes some credit to Devil May Cry.


Of course, I could have created some better options, and the second I created the poll a billion other games came to mind that probably should have been there (Wii Sports, Angry Birds, Uncharted 2, CoD4, Halo), or at least an 'Other' option.

 

[Deleted member 17207]

Pretty much anyone voting anything other than GTA is being disingenuous IMO. You could argue that if Rockstar hadn't made GTA III someone else would've, but that's not the point - in this universe, there may not ever have been Dark Souls or Skyrim if it wasn't for GTA III, plain and simple.

 

[Deleted member 7883]

imo the bulk of influence was for showing that mainstream(ish) gamers/audiences are okay with challenging gameplay. If it wasn't for the soulsborne series I really wonder where the general difficulty curve of AAA gaming would be right now. Other than that I'd have to give it to GTA 3.

 

[Manmademan]

This doesn't explain why informed people still barely recognize it. Demons Souls was basically the start of the series, naming aside.

Journalists and people here still barely mention it in discussion of its influence and as a series.

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I chalk that up to most of those people being based in the US. Dark Souls had a lot better exposure in the US than Demon's did, because the PS3 was struggling here vs. the Xbox at the time by margins of at least 2:1...and that's ignoring the PC release.

You can still get "remastered" versions of Dark even now pretty easily, boosting that total even higher- but Demon's remains a PS3 exclusive unavailable to the casual public.

 

[SofNascimento]

Some context for why I picked the poll options that I did, because I noticed how poorly most of them are doing:

- Dark Souls: the game the article is about, kind of obligatory to add it here.

- GTAIII: the game I think probably deserves the title. It basically created the open-world genre as we understand it today, and considering how many open-world games we have on the market, that's kind of a big deal. It also was one of the titles on the forefront of the 'games are too violent' campaigns waged in the past, though I don't know how relevant that is.

- Half-Life 2: probably the first relevant game to incorporate its physics engine into gameplay, and the importance of physics engines in games ever since has become increasingly prominent. Also the herald of Steam, as it was the first game that required you to install it to launch the game.

- Resident Evil 4: while it wasn't the first game to use the OTS perspective, it undeniably provided the template for how to implement it in shooters. That's on top of creating one of the most cohesive, 'cinematic' campaigns at the time; I would argue that along with God of War, it helped start the trend of more cinematic single-player modes, though that's certainly debatable.

- Diablo 2: a game that doesn't get the credit it deserves. Its style of looting mechanics laid the foundation for games like Borderlands, Destiny, and dozens of others. I might be misplacing credit for that, though.

- Skyrim: while GTAIII is definitely the grandfather of open-world games as we know them, Skyrim provided the template for the more RPG focused and 'go do whatever you want' open-world games of today.

- Devil May Cry: definitely a little more niche than everything above it, but not only did it just straight up invent the spectacle fighter genre, basically any 3D game that allows you to chain attacks together probably owes some credit to Devil May Cry.


Of course, I could have created some better options, and the second I created the poll a billion other games came to mind that probably should have been there (Wii Sports, Angry Birds, Uncharted 2, CoD4, Halo), or at least an 'Other' option.

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I think Mass Effect was a huge influence on cinematic RPGs.

 

[Deleted member 3058]

It's one of the more influential games of the very recent past, sure. Probably in the top 10.

But, as others have said, Resident Evil 4, GTA3, Half-Life 2, and Minecraft are exponentially more influential.

 

[Fisty]

Actually it was Demon's. I would say it's up there for sure, but influential in the way that another game might rip off one or two mechanics from it. Since its niche, it wont be copied wholesale by other developers like COD4 or GTA3 were

 

[Mona]

its GTA3/WoW and it aint even close

 

[Shadoken]

How exactly does one define more influential ?

More games were inspired by it ?
or
Were the games that were inspired by it sold a lot ?

 

[ItsTheShoes]

It's GTA 3 and HL2 and it's not even close. On top of being hugely popular, GTA CREATED the open world genre blueprint we're still using 20 years later. HL2 made Physics in games not only part of the game, but showed how fun it can be to fuck around with stuff in a 3d space.

 

[SofNascimento]

Also, Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare should have been an option.

 

[Daxa]

I agree, except they should have gone with Demon's Souls instead of Dark Souls. The series has definitely completely changed videogames for the better.

First people were salty about DS being too difficult, and now you're a filthy casual if you haven't beaten all Souls games. Gamers, man.

 

[Maxim726x]

I don't even like GTA, but GTA III changed how console games were made.

It's one of the most influential games of all time.

 

[Torpedo Vegas]

Open world sandboxes absolutely exploded after GTA III and I don't feel much Dark Souls in most games.

 

[Jakisthe]

Most influential? Modern Warfare. What it did for incrementalized progression, and how it opened the door for MTX down the line, absolutely changed the face of the industry and is a core business model used by arguably the majority of games. No impact on genres or gameplay systems will ever be bigger than that.

 

[Hope]

If you're going to say Dark Souls then the only right answer is Demon's Souls.

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This! It's disrespectful at this point.

 

[Deleted member 15428]

Call of Duty 4

 

[pillowtalk]

It's demon's souls. But maybe a better answer is farmville.

 

[ghibli99]

Dark Souls?
I can't think of a game with melee combat that wasn't inspired by DS one way or another:

Hollow Knight
Zelda Breath of the Wild
Sinner
Salt and Sanctuary
Code Vein
Nioh
Lords of the Fallen
The Surge
Dead Cells
Ashen
Titan Souls

and many others.

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Yep, good list. Even AC Origins, God of War (2018), and The Witcher 3 felt somewhat influenced by Dark Souls with their parry/sidestep systems. Pretty cool when you really dive in and see how parts of Dark Souls have touched so many games, even if they aren't considers Souls-likes. A hallmark of good design and risk/reward.

 

[Speevy]

I don't like the name influential but I feel like it reinvigorated the 3D action game.

 

[Haze]

Idk about 21st century, but it definitely is the most influential game since it's release.

It essentially created its own genre/subgenre that's minute details have permeated nearly every corner of the medium since them.

 

[werezompire]

The article that this thread is supposed to be talking about mentioned Demon's Souls multiple times. I've never understood the ire that hardcore Demon's Souls fans have towards Dark Souls. Of course the more polished game that was released on a lot more platforms sold better than the original game that was a platform exclusive. Would you rather have had Dark Souls bomb and end the series prematurely?

 

[Zannex]

That would be Demon Souls...

 

[golguin]

For years I've been saying that The Souls franchise is the most influential series from the past generation. Current games are still emulating Souls. Am I finally proven right?

 

[Deleted member 11626]

Almost every modern hit has the DNA of GTA3, Halo 2, or Resident Evil 4. That's not to say Souls hasn't been influential though

edit: not sure how I could forget Minecraft

 

[dark_prinny]

No. Demon's Souls is.

 

[Bastables]

Accepting this seems to be a series on influential games, why would the author pick a later iteration of a formula? I mean this is like noting the influence and foregrounding of resident evil 4, while naming Gears of War/Dead space 2/ Resident evil 6 as the influential one as they sold more/refined the formula. Flabbergasting.

 

[NoUse4AName]

I think that is one of the most influential games of the last 10 years but ..should be Demon Soul not Dark soul

 

[Eidan]

The article that this thread is supposed to be talking about mentioned Demon's Souls multiple times. I've never understood the ire that hardcore Demon's Souls fans have towards Dark Souls. Of course the more polished game that was released on a lot more platforms sold better than the original game that was a platform exclusive. Would you rather have had Dark Souls bomb and end the series prematurely?

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Fans of Demon's Souls really do seem to have a chip on their shoulder whenever Dark Souls is praised.

 

[Plinkerton]

I'm sorry but I can't really look past GTA3 for this. How can anyone look at the current landscape of games, where everything is open-world and open-ended, and not see the massive influence that game had?

Sure there were other open-world games before it, and obviously a lot since that have done it better, but GTA3 created the template for modern open-world game design and popularised it to such an extent that it's still being used to this day. Also just within it's own series, it lead to GTA5 which is one of the most successful games of all time.

 

[Haze]

That would be Demon Souls...

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It wouldn't be demon's souls because even though it preceded Dark Souls and Dark Souls was its spiritual successor, Dark Souls was the one that took the industry by storm and Dark Souls 1 is specifically the game that the ones influenced by this formula emulate.

 

[werezompire]

Accepting this seems to be a series on influential games, why would the author pick a later iteration of a formula? I mean this is like noting the influence and foregrounding of resident evil 4, while naming Gears of War/Dead space 2/ Resident evil 6 as the influential one as they sold more/refined the formula. Flabbergasting.

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RE4 is at something like 8+ million sales which is a far cry from Demon's Souls 1-2 million. RE4 sold just fine.

 

[diakyu]

it's GTA3. Open world games washed over the market like a tsunami after it, and they still are.

 

[Lupercal]

Dark Souls wasn't even the most influential game of the year it came out.
Gamespot pls.

 

[Grexeno]

It's Minecraft.

 

[Manmademan]

The article that this thread is supposed to be talking about mentioned Demon's Souls multiple times. I've never understood the ire that hardcore Demon's Souls fans have towards Dark Souls. Of course the more polished game that was released on a lot more platforms

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I'm sorry man, but it's getting difficult to take you seriously. Dark Souls is a wonderful game, and it's a lot of things- but "more polished than Demon's Souls" was absolutely NOT one of them. The pre-patch version of Dark Souls seemed like it had never been playtested.

The entire level of Lost Izalith had to be patched substantially before it was playable, and Bed of Chaos is STILL the worst boss that exists in the entire series.
Basilisk curses used to stack on top of each other, and removing them was pure hell. The sewer merchant didn't sell curse removal stones yet, which meant a trip allllllllll the way over to Oswald in the belltower.
Skeletons inexplicably gave no souls, so the Catacombs was a whole lot of not fun. Ghosts didn't either- so same for New Londo ruins.
The Crystal Ring Shield had a MASSIVE bug that made it laughably overpowered. Copy the strength of whatever weapon you had in your right hand, turn it into an unblockable projectile.
Strong Magic Shield (again because of a bug) rendered the player utterly and totally invincible.
Tranquil Walk of Peace was twice as powerful, lasted MUCH longer, and pretty much broke PVP.
Lock on didn't work for anyone equipped with a fog ring.

DeS wasn't a flawless game, but it had waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay less bizarre gamebreaking bugs that had to be patched out.

 

[Bastables]

RE4 is at something like 8+ million sales which is a far cry from Demon's Souls 1-2 million. RE4 sold just fine.

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That's not quite my point though.

 

[Deleted member 18379]

Why does everyone act like Demons Souls barely exists?

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Because it's not a good game and it didn't popularize this genre? That's like asking why Gears is remembered for revolutionizing wall cover and blind fire in tps games instead of Killswitch.

 

[Poppy]

of course ds1 is hugely influential

the most influential? probably world of warcraft or modern warfare

 

[oldboss]

.

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I like you.

 

[Haze]

Dark Souls wasn't even the most influential game of the year it came out.
Gamespot pls.

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Influence the games that came out the same year as you fivehead

 

[wafflebrain]

Maybe not the best metric but what's the cumulative reaction and hype like when a new GTA or R* open world game is about to release...now compare that to a Souls game (and no a single forum's hype doesn't count) about to drop. Point being the same base formula of GTA3 has been repeated now across how many gens and its still an absolute beast in terms of public mind share and sales. What were those sales numbers at again for GTAV lol, thing has made more than most box office juggernauts.

And of course the titanic influence on open world design in general. Imo its due for a massive facelift for gameplay but that's another discussion.

Souls formula is certainly refreshing and rewarding, I wish more games with bigger scope followed in its footsteps. Was playing this VR only Soulslike called Chronos the other day with incredible world design and art direction and was wishing it was playable in 2d too, there just aren't enough games like it with that level of attention given to the visuals and atmosphere. Bloodborne 2 save us.

 

[FolderBrad]

Because it's not a good game and it didn't popularize this genre? That's like asking why Gears is remembered for revolutionizing wall cover and blind fire in tps games instead of Killswitch.

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That is not even remotely the same thing. SMH

Also, Demons Souls is great and is the first Souls game. Dark Souls is iterative of DeS. The name was changed for business reasons, not creative ones.