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guek

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,177
Over the past day, I've seen #GamersAreGood pop up on Twitter and it's predictably been met with a polarized response. Why? In addition to the obvious parallels with reflexive #NotAllCops campaigns, there has been a fundamental misunderstanding of why gaming culture has increasingly been scrutinized over the last few years and what the appropriate response should be from people who enjoy the hobby. Before we get into it though, there are a few key points that need emphasizing:
  • Saying there is a problem with gaming culture is NOT a personal attack against you
  • NO ONE is saying ALL gamers are universally evil
  • NO ONE is saying gaming predisposes someone to moral malfeasance
  • Your positive gaming experiences and interactions are valid no matter what, but individual anecdotes are NOT an adequate counterpoint to a systemic issue
  • No, this is NOT about ethics in gaming journalism
Let's start with that last bullet point. The most damning piece of evidence that there is something fundamentally wrong with gaming culture is the advent of GamerGate and the unexpected consequences that followed. What started out disguised as a movement for journalistic integrity quickly and messily devolved into a organized hate campaign that went out of its way to target, harass, and threaten predominantly women and transgender individuals. Pointing out that these hatemongers are still rampant in their harassment should be enough to convince most that there is something fundamentally wrong here that needs fixing, but there is another looming issue that simply does not get pointed out nearly enough. GamerGate was a precursor to the Alt-Right. Kotaku published an excellent piece on the ties between GamerGate and godfather of the Alt-Right, Steve Bannon that you should definitely check out if you haven't already.

To be clear, this isn't meant to create a direct through line from Gamers --> GamerGate --> Steve Bannon --> White Supremacy. Gaming is NOT fundamentally tied to white supremacy and I really hope no one walks away thinking that's the point of this post. However, white supremacists, misogynists, and other bigots have covertly used gaming as a platform for spreading hate and recruiting fellow hatemongers for years. This coopting of gaming as social interaction only intensified with the rise of social media and the political polarization that is currently gripping the globe. But increased social media use has had a major drawback in that that most targeted hate campaigns are easily proven and put on display for the rest of the internet to see. This brings us back to the parallels with another major movement in our midst: Black Lives Matter.

Much like with BLM, social media has allowed stories of abuse to be disseminated and verified to a large degree. It's hard to deny that there's a systemic problem with how law enforcement operates when they are routinely recorded brutalizing compliant victims, shooting unarmed suspects, or even planting evidence at crime scenes. The same goes for the death threats and doxxing efforts that GamerGate loves to employ. So why is there so much push back? Why the fervent denial? It is undoubtedly, at least in part, due to people's personal attachment to gaming, just as people who identify with the military or law enforcement are often the loudest defenders of the authoritarian status quo. This denial manifests as an appeal to a greater majority of "good" examples that attempt to invalidate legitimate criticism.

Hence we get #GamersAreGood and #NotAllCops and #BlueLivesMatter

Just as we see with the attempted silencing of the BLM movement, the appeal to the upstanding majority of gamers who only want to enjoy their beloved hobby is a denial that any problem exists. That's the fundamental flaw with these pushback campaigns. The point is NOT that some or even most gamers aren't completely bigoted assholes. This should go without saying and you should not need to approach the issues plaguing the overarching community of gamers as if it is a personal attack. We all know there are good people that play games, just as there are moral and upstanding police officers who just want to do their job.

THAT'S NOT THE POINT. STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT THE POINT.

The point is admitting there IS a problem. The point is coming to grips with a cancer that is slowly killing our communities. Problems cannot be actively fixed without first acknowledging a problem exists. Disease cannot be cured without first identifying the underlying cause. To believe otherwise is to live in a state of denial and a passive form of consent for the evil that people commit under the cover of willful ignorance. The first step we all must take is recognizing what shared history brought us to this point and where that point is. No, not all gamers are bad, but we already knew that. Do not use that mantra to underhandedly assert that all gamers are good. We are not all good, and it's about time we as a collective acknowledge that fact. Only then can we begin to actually look for solutions for the hate that is afflicting us.

Thanks for reading my rant :-)
 

Acerac

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,218
People dislike hearing that they may be causing a problem.

Expect this to get shouted down by people who hate critical thinking.
 

jjreamPop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,134
I'd hazard that the people who actively deny the problem and shut down discussions about it are more likely to swing toward joining the problem than fighting it.

Edit: Like, we already have people in here dismissing this as a human problem instead.
 

Cinemikel

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,433
You can say that about literally any fanbase in anything. It's a human race thing, not a "gamer" only culture and saying this does nothing
 

electricblue

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,991
  • Saying there is a problem with gaming culture is NOT a personal attack against you
  • NO ONE is saying ALL gamers are universally evil

This is simply not the way anyone engages with these any of these hashtag activism campaigns, starting with that understanding you'll probably get further than shouting this into the wind. Saying there's a problem with cops, gamers, conservatives, whatever inevitably leads to pithy shittakes from both sides that are endlessly retweeted and articles like "Gamers are Dead" that do nothing useful but reinforce the idea that an identity is under attack. I'm assuming of course that either side wants to fix a cultural problem and not profit from it continuing in perpetuity.
 

number8888

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,015
Twitter is a mistake. Pretty much any internet movement these days are reduced to hashtags. There's no nuance in discussions anymore.

Since gamers are more technologically adapted it's easy to see why their influence is greater towards the internet culture. Gamers are the first ones to be online after all.
 

ReubyJuice

Member
Oct 27, 2017
154
Edmonton, AB
Not hard to admit there's a problem, while I don't spend much time on Twitter/social media, the voice chat in pretty much any game is evidence enough. The number of fun/funny encounters I've had via voice chat is far outnumbered by the number of uncomfortable/degrading/toxic encounters.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,231
They had to shorten the actual hashtag because #GamersAreGoodAtParticpating/Encouraging/AllowingHarrasment was too long.
 

Squidi

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
120
Boy, any thread which starts with a crude accusation based on generalizing a bunch of people is going places. If I created a thread that said "Street Fighter culture is toxic, it's fans aren't good", I'd end up getting banned - and rightfully so. And yet you feel no shame at all in generalizing an even larger group of people, who have even less in common with each other.

Maybe if you started treating your fellow gamers with dignity and respect, considering them as individuals and not as a collective based on the worst assumptions about mankind, you might find that maybe they return the favor.
 

Bán

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,307
The point is admitting there IS a problem. The point is coming to grips with a cancer that is slowly killing our communities. Problems cannot be actively fixed without first acknowledging a problem exists. Disease cannot be cured without first identifying the underlying cause. To believe otherwise is to live in a state of denial and a passive form of consent for the evil that people commit under the cover of willful ignorance. The first step we all must take is recognizing what shared history brought us to this point and where that point is. No, not all gamers are bad, but we already knew that. Do not use that mantra to underhandedly assert that all gamers are good. We are not all good, and it's about time we as a collective acknowledge that fact. Only then can we begin to actually look for solutions for the hate that is afflicting us.

But what is the problem? What's killing the communities? Are they even being killed? Because from where I'm sitting it's a social media problem. I don't see behaviour any more or less toxic in the gaming community than I do in the sports fan community or the movie community or the comic book community etc. If you're claiming there's a specific problem, then shouldn't you be the one say what it is and to 'identify the underlying cause'?

So what's the actual issue intrinsic to gaming that makes it particularly toxic?
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
If games teach people anything, its that things are usually a clear cut 'us' versus 'them', the ends justify the means, and if someone or something opposes you you keep hammering away at it until you win.


et voila.
 

Aaron D.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,326
I wouldn't say it's a black & white issue.

Games Done Quick is an amazing charity.

Then you have thoughtful, inclusive productions like Gone Home, Diaries of a Spaceport Janitor, 1979 Revolution: Black Friday, Brothers, Papa & Yo, etc.

Of course the loudest are going to get the most attention. But there is good work being done in the industry.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,231
I move that "it's only some gamer" dismissives be punishable. We are a gaming enthusiast board and as such we have a responsibility to making our hobby welcoming to all. Posting not all gamer bullshit is denying that obligation and only allowing the bad parts to flourish further. If people don't want responsibility for making a hobby better then they shouldn't be engaging in it as an enthusiast.
 
OP
OP
guek

guek

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,177
"Some people are pretty bad" has been a problem throughout the whole existence of humans. No matter what group.
This is a roundabout way of saying don't pay attention to the bad ones. It's a denial that a problem exists. The whole reason I brought up the BLM movement is because identifying a problem exists at all is a major struggle.
 

tyfon

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,680
Norway
Are you calling me a white supremacist!?!?!?!?!?!
No just kidding..

To the topic, there is a reason I stopped playing online games some years ago, it's just not fun with the toxic culture that is abound.
Unfortunately it tends to overpower the many good gamers out there and many of us have escaped to our single player caves.

It definitely is a problem. Not sure how to fix it though bar doing what the South Koreans have done and require authenticated id to play online games, i.e. remove anonymity.
It's the same with any non moderated anonymous venues for discussion on the Internet.

It's not "just a joke"..
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
You can say that about literally any fanbase in anything. It's a human race thing, not a "gamer" only culture and saying this does nothing

You don't believe there is a stonger undercurrent of super toxic persecution complex in hardcore gamers? Have you ever read the Internet my good sir?

Gamers feel they need to justify and defend their prefered medium, and become wrapped up in a trying to defend sexist ad campaigns because people are attacking them- I mean their past time.

i_am_a_gamer_by_thenons3nse-d5aomlw.png
 

ZeroGravity

Banned
Dec 19, 2017
584
Nah. There's been a long history of trying to pin society's ills on gamers. It was garbage then, it's garbage now.
 

Cranston

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,377
It's basically Twitter, which is a playground for utter wallies.

We've created a mode of communication that strips all the joy, nuance, laughter, kindness, honesty, profundity and dignity out of human communication and replaced it with revolting, shrieking pettiness, cruelty, malice and spite. It's awful.
 

Yasumi

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,575
This is true of pretty much any subject culture built on competition, sports and politics in particular. You're just more aware of gaming, being part of that bubble.
 

Gritesh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
124
Get good.




In all seriousness I can't even believe this is a thing. Our society is screwed up big time.
 

Doof

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,434
Kentucky
I love video games with all of my heart. I fucking hate being called a gamer. Why define yourself by your hobbies? Shit's stupid.
 

Squidi

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
120
I move that "it's only some gamer" dismissives be punishable. We are a gaming enthusiast board and as such we have a responsibility to making our hobby welcoming to all. Posting not all gamer bullshit is denying that obligation and only allowing the bad parts to flourish further. If people don't want responsibility for making a hobby better then they shouldn't be engaging in it as an enthusiast.
Welcoming to all... but not allowing the bad parts to flourish? I can't tell if you are purposely trying to be ironic. How welcoming do you think a thread called "Gaming Culture is toxic, gamers aren't good" is?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,263
Come on man, are you really gonna put on the title "Gamers aren't good" and then on the body "nobody is saying all gamers are evil".

I mean sure you can say that not being good doesnt mean you are evil, but it does feel a little contradictory.
 

Iucidium

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,046
Tribalism is bad, no matter what form it has evolved into. YouTube/Twitch doesn't help things either - especially when interacting with others online and all you hear are said streamers lexicon being parroted ad nauseum.
 
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Doof

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,434
Kentucky
If games teach people anything, its that things are usually a clear cut 'us' versus 'them', the ends justify the means, and if someone or something opposes you you keep hammering away at it until you win.


et voila.

Yup yup. Also explains the abhorrent state of discussion that exists in the gaming world.
 

Damian Mahadevan

User banned for use of alt account
Banned
Nov 26, 2017
412
Eh, most people in general are shitbags but hide it. So is it a product of gaming or human nature?
 

Print_Dog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,515
Yea gamers can be impulsive to a fault, lacking filters, hyperbolic, overtly sensitive, and obsessive. Most of us here have been gaming our whole lives. And if you're like me, you've been reading these types of forums and comment sections for a long enough time to see that it's slowly getting better over time. To watch this industry and culture grow has been fascinating honestly. It still has a ways to go...
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
The number of people in this thread missing the point is incredible.

There is a huge problem with racism, with transphobia, with sexism in "gamer culture". No, not all gamers are bad. Yes all gamers are complicit in the toxicity of the subculture when they don't try to solve the problem or at least admit there IS one.

Also note the title is NOT saying gamers are bad. But that they aren't good. And the OP elaborates on that. But nah, gotta get in that hot take after reading a title.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
OP, just to sum up a little, are you suggesting that the problem the community as a whole should recognise and try to address somehow is social media hate campaigns formed by the more hostile gaming sub-communities? Is that a reasonable summary of what you are getting at rather than general misanthropy such as poor etiquette in online games etc?
 

NSA

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,892
It's basically Twitter, which is a playground for utter wallies.

We've created a mode of communication that strips all the joy, nuance, laughter, kindness, honesty, profundity and dignity out of human communication and replaced it with revolting, shrieking pettiness, cruelty, malice and spite. It's awful.

Pretty much this.

I've come to the conclusion that ANY fanbase on social media will get toxic relatively quickly. It is inevitable.
 

iswasdoes

Member
Nov 13, 2017
3,084
Londinium
Around the time of the pewdipie thing, a friend of mine posted on FB that there was something rotten at the core with gaming culture.

I took affront with this, and said that one persons actions, or group of peoples actions, cannot tarnish an entire culture, especially one as big and diverse as gaming

I was hit with alot of backlash about being defensive, with sarcastic "Notallgamers" type comments. But that really wasn't what i meant. It's more that you need to be more specific to the issue.

This issue specifically was about pewdiepie being an asshole. I think it would be right to say there is something wrong with immature people being given monitored access to huge audiences, but blanket equating it to a nebulous 'gaming culture' is just inaccurate and obfuscates the actual problem.

Similarly If the issue is e.g. people being homophobic on voice chat, then thats the issue. If the issue is broader and is e.g. that gaming fosters an inherent misogyny, then thats the issue.

To me I think its like saying "there is something toxic with Muslim culture" because Islamic Terrorism exists. That statement is damaging and false, and it is perfectly right to outright say 'Not All Muslims' in that context.

I absolutely think problems need to be acknowledged. I think being specific about what those problems are are part of that acknowledgement.
 

Epilexia

Member
Jan 27, 2018
2,675
I'm passionate about the video game culture, but I don't consider myself a gamer, and I dislike this narrative. I consider myself a human person who has integrated video games as a part of his entertainment options. I enjoy video games, as I enjoy a good film or a good book.

This also explains how deeply disconnected I feel this generation from Sony or Microsoft, because their insistence in calling me a gamer/player through their marketing.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,359
OP, you are coming across as overly aggressive.
If anecdotal experience for good gaming doesn't count, why does it count for bad gaming?
You don't open the eyes or changing their view for toxic gamers if you damn them all to hell. You also alienate the neutrals/moderate/nonpolitical and drive them to extreme views. If you want to give those people who "don't care" and just want to relax and game after a stressful day, a reason to contemplate on the bigger issues we face, then DON'T tell them their hobby and everything about it is toxic and they should feel ashamed!

Fight the symptoms and not the whole body.
 
Nov 14, 2017
4,928
#NotAllMen

Seriously though, I think it's clear that there are large parts of our culture that are pretty toxic, gamers included.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,767
"Some people are pretty bad" has been a problem throughout the whole existence of humans. No matter what group.

You got that right.

It's basically Twitter, which is a playground for utter wallies.

We've created a mode of communication that strips all the joy, nuance, laughter, kindness, honesty, profundity and dignity out of human communication and replaced it with revolting, shrieking pettiness, cruelty, malice and spite. It's awful.

Agreed.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,231
Welcoming to all... but not allowing the bad parts to flourish? I can't tell if you are purposely trying to be ironic. How welcoming do you think a thread called "Gaming Culture is toxic, gamers aren't good" is?

Welcoming to all based on demographic. Asshole harassers, bigots, etc should not be welcomed. This should not have been difficult for you to infer.
 

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,940
Welcoming to all... but not allowing the bad parts to flourish? I can't tell if you are purposely trying to be ironic. How welcoming do you think a thread called "Gaming Culture is toxic, gamers aren't good" is?
It's welcoming to a discussion on why this is or isn't the case and how we as a community can improve by not letting the worst of us slide by and represent us to the world.
 

spad3

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,125
California
Subjective topic. Depends on what "good" and "bad" are defined as. There is widespread toxicity though, and it's most noticeable in games like League, CS, Overwatch, CoD, BF, PUBG, Fortnite, FIFA, Madden, and pretty much any game that has online competitive multiplayer.