What? It's not a denial at all. It's just a problem on another level. No need to single out "gamers" or "men" or "sjws" or anything like that. Some people are shitty and that's a huge problem humanity can't deal with since the dawn of time.
"Gaming Culture" is toxic - Gamers AREN'T Good
- Thread starter guek
- Start date
I think it really needs to be stated in the OP that the #gamersaregood hashtag was created by big time GamerGater Mark Kern:
https://twitter.com/grummz/status/916336503386542081?lang=en
https://twitter.com/grummz/status/916336503386542081?lang=en
Yes they do. I believe we can thank the times where gamers/nerds were more or less bullied or antagonized for being such. It's easy to develope a hyper defensive kneejerk reaction to any criticism to your hobby in those cultural circumstances. I'm just coldy, fact-of-the-matter analyzing the cause-and-effect of it, not justifying it here.
From the description, I'm not really sure what gaming has to do with it. Isn't this just another way of saying straight white men are toxic?
I mean. People aren't being killed, physically attacked, or discriminated against in a meaningful manner because they're gamers. Any "discrimination" they face is because they act like assholes, or any discrimination they face (often within gaming circles themselves) is due to their race or gender. So I'd say it's a false equivalence.
There is a point to be made about having better and careful messaging when trying to start a social crusading campaign.
Twitter is not compatible with careful messaging.
Also, everyone here is a gamer even if you deny it. If you play video games on a dedicated video game system/platform, you are a gamer.
Twitter is not compatible with careful messaging.
Also, everyone here is a gamer even if you deny it. If you play video games on a dedicated video game system/platform, you are a gamer.
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Choosing to base your identity around a hobby is extremely silly. That's why "Gamer" has always been a ridiculous term to me. It conjures up the worst video games have to offer.
Just remembering the blow-back from the Leigh Alexander article. It was fantastic.
Just remembering the blow-back from the Leigh Alexander article. It was fantastic.
Is this even in question? Of course there is one. That kind of shit and behavior has been at the forefront of the medium for years, through representation in games, in the harassement and the death threats, the Gamergate bullshit, the entrenched sexist stereotypes about who plays games and how women in various industry fields are treated, the portrayal of women, the kind of discourse that runs rampant on forums and social media, and so on
It's not a question, it isn't even hidden or hard to see.
I feel like everyone knows and understands this, not that it's an issue that needs to be accepted.
Good post, OP. The gaming fanbase has some serious issues, and step one is acknowledging that the problem exists. Gamergate as a precursor to the alt-right is some scary shit, and the way the community just sorta put up with being the home base of a massive organized harassment campaign is pretty galling. Anybody who knows people who participate in or sympathize with Gators has a responsibility to try and put them straight - and if they won't listen, cut them off. It has to be made clear to these people that they're not welcome.
(The wording on that last bit is tripping me up a little because, by a lot of indications, they are welcome. Not here, but in general. We have to stop tolerating their bullshit.)
I'd throw in a secondary point, though: if the behavior is shitty, and your response is "other people are shitty too!", you should stop and consider that what you're saying is that since badness exists, it's best to encourage and allow it, rather than trying to reduce the overall level of shittiness around you. I'd point out that if you were a target for these dickweeds, you'd probably feel differently.
(The wording on that last bit is tripping me up a little because, by a lot of indications, they are welcome. Not here, but in general. We have to stop tolerating their bullshit.)
I'd throw in a secondary point, though: if the behavior is shitty, and your response is "other people are shitty too!", you should stop and consider that what you're saying is that since badness exists, it's best to encourage and allow it, rather than trying to reduce the overall level of shittiness around you. I'd point out that if you were a target for these dickweeds, you'd probably feel differently.
Sadly, a lot of people (not saying anyone in this thread, so don't blow me up with your #notallgamers crap) don't see those things as problems. Some folks I've spoken to feel that it's a core part of the "gamer identity". I keep thinking back to the "Gamers are Dead" articles from around when Gamergate started, and how the core of the idea of the "death of the gamer" was solid, and that more people play video games than the traditional 18-34 white male gamer. Some folks took that as an attack on them, when it was really just commenting on the increasing diversification of people who play games.
Yeah, gaming culture is pretty strange. Ive been called the N word online more than i ever have living in a pretty racist area in Mississippi. And when me and my ex would play online games god forbid they find out she's a woman. Jesus.. Its why i mostly play offline games and rpgs now.
Basically
Like are all film lovers the same as those decrying starwars as feminist propaganda?
If I disagree with your usage of the word "huge" there, I will get banned and labeled as a racist, transphobe, and sexist. We not only can't disagree with that statement, we can't even disagree on the degree to which it is true.
And after I get banned for suggesting that "huge" might be an overstatement, how exactly do you think my opinions will then be affected? Which people will I then turn to have discussions? Who's opinions will I then cheer in public? Who's words will seem more reasonable? Who's company will I then keep? You want to know where the toxicity comes from in the gaming community? Look around you. You guys are just complaining that people don't actually go away when you ostracize them. What the fuck is wrong with them!? You already banned them! Why didn't they go crawl in a hole and die?
"If anybody pushes back against my equivocating and minimizing of the massive targeted harassment campaign perpetrated by many gamers in the name of gaming, it's your fault if I then become even more intolerant than I already was!"
Fucking please.
Oh man. I generally avoid interacting with "gamers" on social media, so I was not aware that there was this #gamersaregood thing circulating. That's some All Lives Matter type bullshit.
I've long suspected that the fact that most games are designed and structured as naked power fantasies that revolve around establishing your conquest over your environment or over other people makes large swaths of the people who play them susceptible to philosophies of supremacy and domination. Hence all the synergy between gamers and white supremacists and other hate groups. Lack of empathy as a way of life.
It would be splendid if denial of the truth was grounds for banning but unfortunately I don't think it's the case.
Yeah this. There's a lot of nerdy/geeky people who feel that because they were bullied or made to feel belittled that they can turn around and be just as toxic. It's definitely apparent in games as I rarely go a single competitive game without someone crossing the fun jesting line into toxic harassment.
I wouldn’t say their equivalent either, but it’s the same breed of generalisation that I think is unhelpful
I would never even use the word gamer to describe myself, just to avoid association with all that nonsense.
There's a gamergate thread in the old country right now. Most people seem to be just asking questions, agreeing gamergate really was about ethics in journalism, that PC culture has gone too far, and SJWs are the real nazis.
resetera is the minority in gamer culture. Most of it is toxic garbage. I would be hesitant to even let new friends know that I'm super into games, I mostly just pass it off as a casual interest to everyone but my closest friends.
There's a gamergate thread in the old country right now. Most people seem to be just asking questions, agreeing gamergate really was about ethics in journalism, that PC culture has gone too far, and SJWs are the real nazis.
resetera is the minority in gamer culture. Most of it is toxic garbage. I would be hesitant to even let new friends know that I'm super into games, I mostly just pass it off as a casual interest to everyone but my closest friends.
You might be a little too hung up with the idea that disagreeing will get you banned.
Came to say something like that. Besides, in a couple of decades, pretty much everyone will play games, it's already not a kids thing anymore. When everyone from toddlers to granpas will have been playing games for all their lives, the word gamer will lose its meaning (except maybe for hardcore gamers or people with a real passion for the medium).
I hate the term "Gamer", especially if someone tries to apply it to me.
I play videogames, yes, but that doesn't define me. I also read books but you don't call me a "Booker".
I play videogames, yes, but that doesn't define me. I also read books but you don't call me a "Booker".
I think the bigger point here is that gamers are so coddled and they choose the media personalities that are least likely to criticize them.
The most popular people on YouTube for example all echo this same basic mentality:
The most popular people on YouTube for example all echo this same basic mentality:
- Everything wrong with the gaming industry? Only the greedy publishers are guilty.
- Never will we hear a word of even slight criticism of the gamer -- they are all perfect, blessed little angels.
- Please, allow me to spin reality to justify your asinine outrage so you can continue your righteous gamer crusade in the comment section and in a game developer's twitter mentions.
Nobody in the history of ever has called themselves a "film watcher."
A few thoughts.
1) a question I've been asked by friends who write in other industries: "when is gaming going to get its Rolling Stone equivalent?" As in, something that 1) sets a tone for what the "culture" of the art/commodity dynamic is going to be and 2) sets it up in a generally attractive tentpole for the rest of pop culture to look upon and revere. The answer, IMO, is going to be a smartly run video/streaming channel...
2) ...should any of these channels find their footing without putting a hate-speech shitlord in its top ranks. That's going to be very hard. Online adolescence for the past 9-10 years has been dominated by /pol/ and /b/ memes as a coded language to separate the cool and hip from the clueless. The result: people like Pewdiepie and the almost-hired-by-NY-Times Quinn Norton throwing out homophobic, bigoted, and anti-Semitic speech as default parlance. As a way to prove that you have a tough online skin.
3) Reclaiming the identity of "I love and appreciate games," and rooting out the "I'm Internet savvy and therefore talk online like a piece of shit" garbage that has set hold, is going to take some time, and it will only take longer if the smart nerds don't start conversations LIKE THIS ONE RIGHT HERE and understand what's happening. Gaming is a really easy ecosystem that hateful people use to indoctrinate young, attention-hungry, disaffected guys and girls. So, unfortunately, fans of game design and game criticism have to put forth some effort to undo that shit.
4) To that end, I start with a pretty simple plea: hate speech is hate speech, no matter what "ironic" context you think you exist within. Racism, bigotry, and fascism started long before you, and repeating their tenets always makes them stronger. Call out those devils. You can still be weird and gonzo and funny in a gaming world. You can still be edgy and disruptive and young and foolish. But Nazi salutes, racist Knuckles memes, and drops of the homophobic f-word are shitty jokes that only punch down and harm the gaming world every time they're uttered.
1) a question I've been asked by friends who write in other industries: "when is gaming going to get its Rolling Stone equivalent?" As in, something that 1) sets a tone for what the "culture" of the art/commodity dynamic is going to be and 2) sets it up in a generally attractive tentpole for the rest of pop culture to look upon and revere. The answer, IMO, is going to be a smartly run video/streaming channel...
2) ...should any of these channels find their footing without putting a hate-speech shitlord in its top ranks. That's going to be very hard. Online adolescence for the past 9-10 years has been dominated by /pol/ and /b/ memes as a coded language to separate the cool and hip from the clueless. The result: people like Pewdiepie and the almost-hired-by-NY-Times Quinn Norton throwing out homophobic, bigoted, and anti-Semitic speech as default parlance. As a way to prove that you have a tough online skin.
3) Reclaiming the identity of "I love and appreciate games," and rooting out the "I'm Internet savvy and therefore talk online like a piece of shit" garbage that has set hold, is going to take some time, and it will only take longer if the smart nerds don't start conversations LIKE THIS ONE RIGHT HERE and understand what's happening. Gaming is a really easy ecosystem that hateful people use to indoctrinate young, attention-hungry, disaffected guys and girls. So, unfortunately, fans of game design and game criticism have to put forth some effort to undo that shit.
4) To that end, I start with a pretty simple plea: hate speech is hate speech, no matter what "ironic" context you think you exist within. Racism, bigotry, and fascism started long before you, and repeating their tenets always makes them stronger. Call out those devils. You can still be weird and gonzo and funny in a gaming world. You can still be edgy and disruptive and young and foolish. But Nazi salutes, racist Knuckles memes, and drops of the homophobic f-word are shitty jokes that only punch down and harm the gaming world every time they're uttered.
So fucking true. Cervantes was openly critical of proverbs because they automatize and standarize thought; if he knew we'd eventually invent something ten times worse, he'd have killed himself before writing a word.
Just like a few people have pointed out, in every group/fanbase there is the good, the bad and the ugly, but overall I've found gaming to be one of the most toxic environments. I regularly play with a female in our group, every now and then when we pair up with randoms online they start saying sexist shit for no damn reason besides them being a female and its annoying. Being anonymous online is one of the reasons that leads to this kind of behavior since there is no punishment for it. There is also a lot of gamers that have to pick fights/downplay everything the competing platform does just to antagonize others (see YouTube comments for almost any gaming related video). I mean its cool to enjoy your platform and that's fine, but no need to be toxic/childish about it.
There's a friend of mine (which we can be social about anything, except gaming), that when we start talking anything gaming. He immediately downplays everything the consoles do (He's a PC gamer) and even if you try to have a good conversation about the topic, its always a downplay or some "bs" reason why everything else sucks.
Unfortunately this is something that can't be stopped, its the internet. IRL, there could be consequences, but online not so much.
There's a friend of mine (which we can be social about anything, except gaming), that when we start talking anything gaming. He immediately downplays everything the consoles do (He's a PC gamer) and even if you try to have a good conversation about the topic, its always a downplay or some "bs" reason why everything else sucks.
Unfortunately this is something that can't be stopped, its the internet. IRL, there could be consequences, but online not so much.
I fucking loathe the term "cringe," but man if this doesn't call for it
I'm just saying there's no need to name any groups. Either "some people are evil" or "this one specific motherfucker is toxic", not "people who play videogames aren't cool".
You're right. That's one of the motives for why I don't like the term gamer and I don't like to use it for me.
OP
OP
Saying people can't deal with it or that "that's just the way it is" is a denial tactic as old as human history.
Exactly this. I love gamers (and I am one) but a hobby doesn't define the person, nor does a single type of person define a hobby. People are the problem, not gamers.
Gamergate was a clusterfuck but it was pretty well documented that at least a portion of the shitty harassing, death threats, etc bascially all the bad shit attributed to GG was people trolling who didnt give a shit either way.
Not only that but gaming has become one of the most popular forms of pop culture today. Who is considered a "gamer" and thus responsible for fixing this issue? My contribution to the gaming sphere is relegated to this board basically and thats it. Is it my responsibility to go out and.....do what exactly? Shame sexists and racists on the internet? Shout into the void of twitter only providing what most of these trolls and douches are looking for: an offended audience?
Not only that but gaming has become one of the most popular forms of pop culture today. Who is considered a "gamer" and thus responsible for fixing this issue? My contribution to the gaming sphere is relegated to this board basically and thats it. Is it my responsibility to go out and.....do what exactly? Shame sexists and racists on the internet? Shout into the void of twitter only providing what most of these trolls and douches are looking for: an offended audience?
This is whataboutism in the vein of "not all men." Gaming is clearly a subculture, it would be bizarre to claim otherwise. And it's wack to try to shut down criticism of a culture by pointing to the existence of broader sources of shitty behavior.
I don't think everyone knows and understands this. If you talk about poor representation in video games or about discrimination against women and minorities in gaming you will always be met with people telling you to calm down, it's just a game, you must be so fragile and easily upset, I don't care about your problem, why do you want to ban my favourite video game and ruin my life, etc.
If being banned from a video game message board for downplaying racism, sexism or transphobia is all it would take for you to publicly support bigots then I don't know what to tell you. Those ideas don't come out of thin air like that, a message board ban should not be enough to push you into that territory.
As a gaming enthusiast board we are obviously more invested in gaming as a community and as such we obviously have more of a focus on that than all of humanity. Saying "oh it's just a problem with people in general" is just one more contributor to accepting the BS that occurs within gaming spaces (which just contributes to making humanity worse). It's basically establishing a self-fulfilling prophecy when people espouse trivialities like "it's a problem everywhere". That sort of rhetoric needs to be expunged.
I have to agree that the "gaming community" as a whole is bad. Outside of this forum the opinions and views that I see from some people who are passionate about gaming are disappointing and frustrating.
Was expecting the "There's millions of us/we outnumber you" line, and how nice of him to tell us to shut up like a child.
I don't view it that way. It is more a way of saying one bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch. It is a valid viewpoint and it doesn't ignore the fact that there is a problem.
You are absolutely correct. I've dealt with that myself, and while I too tend to steer clear of situations that expose me to that segment of the gaming population I also realize that the assholes that ruin the experience for me are in the minority. The are just really loud. In no way does my "one bad apple" view not excuse their behavior. I am just as offended as the person who thinks all gamers are complicit in this behavior. I just choose to be alittle more positive in my world view, which let's be honest, is getting more and more difficult each day.
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Shitty people still exist = humanity can't deal with this problem yet.
Blanket statements never help anyone. These kind of hashtag memes don't really provide a great platform for acknowledging that. Internet discourse, with its high degree of disengagement and fast travel of information doesn't really promote sensible discourse. It promotes reactionary behaviours, which is not surprisingly seeping into the public discourse overall.
Hashtag campaigns operate on sweeping generalisations, to ask people to respond in nuanced ways is kind of moronic. If you want people to just agree with a provocative generalisation while also taking all your implied exceptions and asterisks into account then I don't know what to tell you.
Twitter activism is reductive by its very nature, and as such will get only reductive responses, be they supportive or confrontational.
I find it increasingly worthless to pay any attention to Twitter as it is unable to host anything of value outside of Humorous parody accounts.
Twitter activism is reductive by its very nature, and as such will get only reductive responses, be they supportive or confrontational.
I find it increasingly worthless to pay any attention to Twitter as it is unable to host anything of value outside of Humorous parody accounts.
Well said.
But with that said, we should not allow toxicity to fester or gain platform in a hobby we enjoy either.
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