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Aphexian

Member
Oct 26, 2017
348
I got priced out the neighbor I lived in for 20+ years because of gentrification . I walk by the area once in awhile and there's always a new shop cause the people moving in can't keep their businesses open cause no one around cares to shop there.

I'm worried about something like this. We bought our home for $160,000 4 years ago, we recently had to get the home refinanced because the mortgage company kept coming up $1k short on taxes each year so our payment would climb $100 a month every year. Our home is now valued at $210,000 I think, which is good if I was going to sell it but I plan to live here a while. They're putting in new $500k homes in a neighborhood close by and I'm worried that eventually I'm going to get pushed out of my home and my neighborhood. I don't see how anyone will be able to afford living around here anymore, we certainly wouldn't have been able to afford a $210,000 home 4 years ago and we had a 20k down payment. 2 homes are this street are vacant and have switched their signs from 'For Sale' to 'For Lease' I assume because it's easier to get people to not have a huge commitment to this area.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,250
To me its an inherit flaw (or feature depending on your politics) of capitalism. To make a decent profit you must invest in cheap areas and raise the value. Its not personal, people are motivated by profit. It sucks if you are poor, but that is capitalism for better or worse.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 9824

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
256
I'm from a majority black city, I'm black, I'm gonna look at it from a minority viewpoint before anything else
Sure that's fine, but we have to remember gentrification's a economic and political problem more than a social problem. Solving an economic or political problem for one group won't really solve it for everyone else, I'm sure you understand.
 

Mondy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,456
Sure that's fine, but we have to remember gentrification's a economic and political problem more than a social problem. Solving an economic or political problem for one group won't really solve it for everyone else, I'm sure you understand.

That's what makes the pill hard to swallow. The decisions are coming from rich people influenced by other rich people.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
I'm worried about something like this. We bought our home for $160,000 4 years ago, we recently had to get the home refinanced because the mortgage company kept coming up $1k short on taxes each year so our payment would climb $100 a month every year. Our home is now valued at $210,000 I think, which is good if I was going to sell it but I plan to live here a while. They're putting in new $500k homes in a neighborhood close by and I'm worried that eventually I'm going to get pushed out of my home and my neighborhood. I don't see how anyone will be able to afford living around here anymore, we certainly wouldn't have been able to afford a $210,000 home 4 years ago and we had a 20k down payment. 2 homes are this street are vacant and have switched their signs from 'For Sale' to 'For Lease' I assume because it's easier to get people to not have a huge commitment to this area.
The danger that many worry about is that in response to something like this, that people go and do something stupid like CA's property tax cap, which has resulted in a system in which people are encouraged to "get in" on a property and never ever let it go.

Generally, making +$50K by just ...doing nothing is a good problem to have!
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
I don't think so. More money into anything doesn't solve much, unless it's into education. Adults are a lost cause most of the time, and it's these public school kids who are their city's future. A lot of problems come from a lack of proper funding in education. Even if a school gets more fundng, if they don't spend it on teachers who actually care about their students, then what's the point? We need to rethink how to do taxes locally. Property and income taxes are almost always tied to gentrification and the education system, but in separate ways. I wish most cities would actually scratch their current taxes and start over, thinking about the long-term effects of their taxes instead of thinking about the current issues at hand. Scratch every part of taxation, and even federal taxes, and then figure out how to improve an area without displacing everyone.

Teachers care about their students in even the most poverty-stricken areas in the country. But the real world isn't Stand and Deliver writ large. When large numbers of parents can't or won't provide for their children, the community is unsafe, and children lack basic discipline, teachers can only do so much.
 

Aphexian

Member
Oct 26, 2017
348
The danger that many worry about is that in response to something like this, that people go and do something stupid like CA's property tax cap, which has resulted in a system in which people are encouraged to "get in" on a property and never ever let it go.

Generally, making +$50K by just ...doing nothing is a good problem to have!

Yeah it is, I'm just not interested in selling and would rather pay taxes on a $160,000 home :)
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
I recently read How to Kill a City: Gentrification, Inequality, and the Fight for the Neighborhood by Peter Moskowitz and he does a great job of explaining the problem from multiple angles by going through the history of 4 cities (New Orleans, San Fransisco, Detroit, and New York City). It's an easy read and might change the minds of any of you that think it's generally a net positive or that it's a natural/inevitable part of a city's "life".
Thank you, I dislike the idea of gentrification, but I've been looking for an academic and rigurous approach to the subject, and the necessary knowledge to make arguments.
On the subject of safety in poor neighbourhoods, right now my GF lives in a student flat in what is called mostly by racists the worst neighbourhood of the town where our university is. It's surrounded by middle class suburban development and it's mostly populated by the elder and by families of inmigrants from all over the place (Latin America, north of Africa, Brazil, China, West Africa...) and of course it's perfectly fine and safe, and nothing ever happens.
But of course you hear people who live in sheltered condos somewhere else saying they wouldn't walk around there at night and shit.
(For clarification, I'm talking about Spain)
 
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halvvapoori

Member
Oct 25, 2017
368
Amsterdam
maybe gentrification doesn't effect me because uh I make good money and live in a gentrified neighborhood. I'm allowed my opinion not everyone is poor
I really don't understand this stance you have taken. At least try to argue why you're in favour of gentrification or why it isn't as bad as it is portrayed by others.
Also it doesn't really hurt to show empathy towards others, but maybe you think poor people are poor by choice.
 

Deleted member 907

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,300
Being Asian puts a different slant on things as Asian communities are generally very compact due to past immigration restrictions and red lining. Ethnic enclaves aren't new, but Asians aren't and will never be considered white, unlike the Irish, Italians, or even Jewish. There is not going to be a mass exodus from Chinatowns allowing new groups of immigrants in because those enclaves are social and cultural hubs. Gentrification in these places only serves to displace the people that worked and fought to make their communities better for the people that lived there and not so people from outside can buy their way in.

All my life, I heard about how shitty and dangerous Chinatown was, which is funny because I felt more safe walking around at 3am than in the surrounding areas at that hour. Now, developers are spending 1.5 million on 150 year old row houses to build luxury condos or turning them into Airbnb's. F that.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
once again I don't care about the familes that were there before. I'm not going to pretend I care. I'm an evil capitalist so whatever
I mean, there's really no end to it, so sooner or later your likely middle class self will be displaced by this effect, too. Any property close to city centers are practically unaffordable to most people nowadays. This has a knockdown effect where even shitty properties cost bundles. Unless you're super rich.

I'm nowhere near poor myself and I can definitely see it.
 

fauxtrot

Member
Oct 25, 2017
455
Sure that's fine, but we have to remember gentrification's a economic and political problem more than a social problem. Solving an economic or political problem for one group won't really solve it for everyone else, I'm sure you understand.

It's definitely a social problem... when you go back and study why these communities that are now being gentrified ended up where they are, you can see how racially motivated laws and practices forced people of color into the least desirable areas of the city. Now that those areas are more desirable, we use "colorblind" laws and practices (as well as allowing the free market to work it's magic so we can act like it was inevitable) to force people of color out of their communities and into the new areas deemed undesirable by the rest of society.
 
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OP
OP

Deleted member 9824

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
256
It's definitely a social problem... when you go back and study why these communities that are now being gentrified ended up where they are, you can see how racially motivated laws and practices forced people of color into the least desirable areas of the city. Now that those areas are more desirable, we use "colorblind" laws and practices (as well as allowing the free market to work it's magic so we can act like it was inevitable) to force people of color to move to the new undesirable areas.
What about the Bay Area's gentrification? Before I left the Bay Area around nine or ten years ago, there were African-Americans, Caucasians, Latinos, and Asians all chilling with each other, especially in the poorer neighborhoods. Whenever I think about these topics that affect the poor and minorities, I always think about what my cousin, who lived over there too, said to me, "The struggle doesn't discriminate. It doesn't matter if you're white, black, brown, or yellow. Those in power will always find a way to stay in power, even if it means hurting their own." My ethnic studies teacher in high school said something similar to that too. I'm just thinking about how economic and political problems affect people in general, and trying not to victimize specific groups, which seems somewhat racist, if you think about it.

I keep the history of social communities in mind, but for this generation's gentrification? I personally don't think it applies as much as the actual reasons for [re]development being handled poorly.
 

fauxtrot

Member
Oct 25, 2017
455
What about the Bay Area's gentrification? Before I left the Bay Area around nine or ten years ago, there were African-Americans, Caucasians, Latinos, and Asians all chilling with each other, especially in the poorer neighborhoods. Whenever I think about these topics that affect the poor and minorities, I always think about what my cousin, who lived over there too, said to me, "The struggle doesn't discriminate. It doesn't matter if you're white, black, brown, or yellow. Those in power will always find a way to stay in power, even if it means hurting their own." My ethnic studies teacher in high school said something similar to that too. I'm just thinking about how economic and political problems affect people in general, and trying not to victimize specific groups, which seems somewhat racist, if you think about it.

I keep the history of social communities in mind, but for this generation's gentrification? I personally don't think it applies as much as the actual reasons for [re]development being handled poorly.

We'll never fix the problem if we look at gentrification through the lens that its starting point is when people with more money start moving into a previously underfunded / undesirable / "more affordable" / etc neighborhood... we have to look at how that neighborhood & community came into being and why until very recently it was avoided by most of society. In other words, why is that community so easily gentrifiable? If you're not taking that history into account, you're not taking into account that most of the time, some racist politicians or other people with power in the city (or county or state) were actively trying to segregate people of color and then starve those communities of the public resources they would need to have the opportunity to thrive like most other neighboring white communities.

This generation's gentrification is inextricably tied to the previous generations' redlining, racially restrictive covenants, exclusion from home financing opportunities, etc.

If you're still not convinced, I recommend you read the book I mentioned earlier, How to Kill a City, which dedicates about 1/4 of the book on San Francisco and how the more unaffordable it gets, the whiter it gets. I'd also recommend The New Jim Crow if you'd like to read about how the kind of "colorblind" thinking you're mentioning still allows racist institutions and systems to operate freely. We should be pointing out when people of color are being targeted by systems of oppression... I don't know how that would be "somewhat racist".
 
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OP
OP

Deleted member 9824

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
256
We'll never fix the problem if we look at gentrification through the lens that its starting point is when people with more money start moving into a previously underfunded / undesirable / "more affordable" / etc neighborhood... we have to look at how that neighborhood & community came into being and why until very recently it was avoided by most of society. In other words, why is that community so easily gentrifiable? If you're not taking that history into account, you're not taking into account that most of the time, some racist politicians or other people with power in the city (or county or state) were actively trying to segregate people of color and then starve those communities of the public resources they would need to have the opportunity to thrive like most other neighboring white communities.

This generation's gentrification is inextricably tied to the previous generations' redlining, racially restrictive covenants, exclusion from home financing opportunities, etc.

If you're still not convinced, I recommend you read the book I mentioned earlier, How to Kill a City, which dedicates about 1/4 of the book on San Francisco and how the more unaffordable it gets, the whiter it gets. I'd also recommend The New Jim Crow if you'd like to read about how the kind of "colorblind" thinking you're mentioning still allows racist institutions and systems to operate freely. We should be pointing out when people of color are being targeted by systems of oppression... I don't know how that would be "somewhat racist".
I'll do a bit of reading later, including those two that you mentioned. When I meant somewhat racist, I meant thinking that "all [insert minority] people are a victim" is somewhat racist, implying that they are lessers who can't handle themselves. Even if we were being targeted, there are some cities where we are in social and political power that are still being gentrified to Hell. Like I said, I don't think it's a racial issue at this point, because of how complex everything's gotten, and how easy it is to follow the money. I'm kind of starting to think it's a property ownership issue as well. I'll, however, take your point it into consideration again when reading "The New Jim Crow" and "How to Kill a City".

Just a side note, but the term "people of color" never sat well with me, because of how eerily similar it is to "colored people." I thought about it for a long time and made my mind up on never using that term, but that's a different issue.
 
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JoeG

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
107
Are there any nice modern urban neighborhoods that weren't at one time occupied by poor/minorities?
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,333
Gentrified Brooklyn
I'll do a bit of reading later, including those two that you mentioned. When I meant somewhat racist, I meant thinking that "all [insert minority] people are a victim" is somewhat racist, implying that they are lessers who can't handle themselves. Even if we were being targeted, there are some cities where we are in social and political power that are still being gentrified to Hell. Like I said, I don't think it's a racial issue at this point, because of how complex everything's gotten, and how easy it is to follow the money. I'm kind of starting to think it's a property ownership issue as well. I'll, however, take your point it into consideration again when reading "The New Jim Crow" and "How to Kill a City".

Just a side note, but the term "people of color" never sat well with me, because of how eerily similar it is to "colored people." I thought about it for a long time and made my mind up on never using that term, but that's a different issue.

It's not that they are lesser; its that the system's various systems were stacked against them in the past (and still exist to a certain extent) made the native population vulnerable to the easy takeover today. Ta-naheshi Coates breakthrough article, 'Case For Reparations' was mainly about Chicago's housing segregation and how it was supported on a legal and financial level...in those 'shitty' neighborhoods it was hard for people to get reasonable mortgages which left them as rentors which left their families vulnerable to eviction or easy developer buyout today.

I mean for a simplified version imho you've got white flight that pulled alot of resources from the cities into the suburbs and intentionally or not, let the people left behind (POC's, poor whites). They in turn get treated like shit by the municipalities and big business as large because in the best case scenario they were seen as shitty investments because they are poor (worst case, good old racism/classism) so they focus on the richer parts of the city and how to keep more of those suburban dollars in town.

Eventually you get the art/creative class (mainly white but still pretty welcoming/multicultural) getting pushed into the community because despite the fact they are basically the cultural cache of the city they too are seen as disposable as the poors; they go where the cheap rent is. Eventually their labor (and the benefit of not being seen strictly as poor class) helps to make a neighborhood attractive until developers notice, move in and push everyone out.

As far as why the history makes a difference; from my own anecdotal experience living in a hyper-gentrifying neighborhood with dealing with a long term property owner who also lives in the neighborhood is drastically different from dealing with a developer. If the original 'natives' were given a solid fair shake at mortgages/city hall that their suburban counterparts they would be more protected. If those young creatives who moved in and helped put in those original sparks (a coffee shop here, a cool nightlife spot here) were also given equal access to city hall (because when they moved in it was still the 'ghetto'), same thing.
 

CaughtBeing

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
162
My thought is this, gentrification usually happens alongside with redlining more often then not, if not all the time. This prevents poorer population from getting the advantages of gentrification, because they have been isolated from the gentrified district/area/location due to redlining, one example of advantage being public school. Redlining is illegal now (doesn't stop the sneaky racists), but it was done so much in the past, that the minorities - majority being the black population- are stuck in this mud where they are not able to rise up from proverty, all due to inituitionalized racism. Which is often why you'll see only majority white school, or majority black school, not a whole of school with a sense of balance.

Gentrification is all fun and dandy, if you are making above a mean wage, but if you are poor, just barely able to scrap by, you'll be displaced due to high rent, if you were renting. And if you own the house, and live in predominantly middle to upper class neighborhood, gentrification is beneficial to you. However, if you are in a lower class minority neighborhood, and you own a home, you'll see that gentrification usually happens around you and not where you are (due to redlining). And if it happens where you are, you'll soon notice that the gentrification process slows down or stop altogether, thus you won't reap the benefits altogether.

Thus, gentrification in it ideal, is a good thing, but what we need to do, is to allow for more balance in districting, where and how tax money flows back into the neighborhood evenly, to lower/eliminate the disparity between the upper and lower class, allow for middle-class population to grow. If you are living in a poor neighborhood, chances are the school applied to that neighborhood is not getting ahold lot of funding, same with other other public services, like maintenance of road, maintenance of electrical equipment, mainteance of sewages, maintenance of water supply for that neighborhood.

And due to the increasing disparity in wealth, you'll only belong in one of the following classes, lower or upper, no in between.

So you can logically say, "I am poor", or " I am rich"
 

Minako

Member
Oct 25, 2017
477
I don't have much to contribute to this discussion since it's outside my area of expertise, but the podcast 99% Invisible did a very interesting episode that covers this topic in relation to a specific area of Los Angeles and the issues that arose in the situation.
 

Namaste

Member
Oct 25, 2017
413
I think overall it's a good thing the neighborhoods are becoming safer. The problem is that it doesn't address the underlying problems it just pushes them to a new area.
 

Deleted member 11046

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
942
I don't have much to contribute to this discussion since it's outside my area of expertise, but the podcast 99% Invisible did a very interesting episode that covers this topic in relation to a specific area of Los Angeles and the issues that arose in the situation.
There Goes the Neighborhood is a fantastic, multi-part podcast from KCRW that really touches upon a lot of aspects of gentrification (focused on Los Angeles). I recommend a listen if you're interested in the topic.
Thanks for the suggestions, you two. I'll give these a listen!