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Arkestry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,920
London
Due to the latest Remainiac's podcast episode, I read George Orwell's essay 'Notes on Nationalism', written in the final months of WW2 in 1945. It's incredibly prescient, although as one of the hosts states, a better term than nationalism is actually 'chauvinism', defined as 'excessive or prejudiced support for one's own cause, group, or sex.'

Some choice quotes:

"Nationalism, in the extended sense in which I am using the word,/does not necessarily mean loyalty to a government or a country, still less to one's own country, and it is not even strictly necessary that the units in which it deals should actually exist. To name a few obvious examples, Jewry, Islam, Christendom, the Proletariat and the White Race are all of them objects of passionate nationalistic feeling: but their existence can be seriously questioned, and there is no definition of any one of them that would be universally accepted."

"As nearly as possible, no nationalist ever thinks, talks, or writes about anything except the superiority of his own power unit. It is difficult if not impossible for any nationalist to conceal his allegiance. The smallest slur upon his own unit, or any implied praise of a rival organization, fills him with uneasiness which he can relieve only by making some sharp retort. If the chosen unit is an actual country, such as Ireland or India, he will generally claim superiority for it not only in military power and political virtue, but in art, literature, sport, structure of the language, the physical beauty of the inhabitants, and perhaps even in climate, scenery and cooking. Nomenclature plays a very important part in nationalist thought. Countries which have won their independence or gone through a nationalist revolution usually change their names, and any country or other unit round which strong feelings revolve is likely to have several names, each of them carrying a different implication. All nationalists consider it a duty to spread their own language to the detriment of rival languages, and among English-speakers this struggle reappears in subtler forms as a struggle between dialects."

"For an intellectual, transference has an important function. It makes it possible for him to be much more nationalistic — more vulgar, more silly, more malignant, more dishonest — that he could ever be on behalf of his native country, or any unit of which he had real knowledge. In societies such as ours, it is unusual for anyone describable as an intellectual to feel a very deep attachment to his own country. Public opinion — that is, the section of public opinion of which he as an intellectual is aware — will not allow him to do so. Most of the people surrounding him are sceptical and disaffected, and he may adopt the same attitude from imitativeness or sheer cowardice: in that case he will have abandoned the form of nationalism that lies nearest to hand without getting any closer to a genuinely internationalist outlook. He still feels the need for a Fatherland, and it is natural to look for one somewhere abroad. Having found it, he can wallow unrestrainedly in exactly those emotions from which he believes that he has emancipated himself. God, the King, the Empire, the Union Jack — all the overthrown idols can reappear under different names, and because they are not recognised for what they are they can be worshipped with a good conscience. Transferred nationalism, like the use of scapegoats, is a way of attaining salvation without altering one's conduct."

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. For quite six years the English admirers of Hitler contrived not to learn of the existence of Dachau and Buchenwald. And those who are loudest in denouncing the German concentration camps are often quite unaware, or only very dimly aware, that there are also concentration camps in Russia. Huge events like the Ukraine famine of 1933, involving the deaths of millions of people, have actually escaped the attention of the majority of English russophiles. Many English people have heard almost nothing about the extermination of German and Polish Jews during the present war. Their own antisemitism has caused this vast crime to bounce off their consciousness. In nationalist thought there are facts which are both true and untrue, known and unknown. A known fact may be so unbearable that it is habitually pushed aside and not allowed to enter into logical processes, or on the other hand it may enter into every calculation and yet never be admitted as a fact, even in one's own mind."

"Indifference to objective truth is encouraged by the sealing-off of one part of the world from another, which makes it harder and harder to discover what is actually happening. There can often be a genuine doubt about the most enormous events. For example, it is impossible to calculate within millions, perhaps even tens of millions, the number of deaths caused by the present war. The calamities that are constantly being reported — battles, massacres, famines, revolutions — tend to inspire in the average person a feeling of unreality. One has no way of verifying the facts, one is not even fully certain that they have happened, and one is always presented with totally different interpretations from different sources. What were the rights and wrongs of the Warsaw rising of August 1944? Is it true about the German gas ovens in Poland? Who was really to blame for the Bengal famine? Probably the truth is discoverable, but the facts will be so dishonestly set forth in almost any newspaper that the ordinary reader can be forgiven either for swallowing lies or failing to form an opinion. The general uncertainty as to what is really happening makes it easier to cling to lunatic beliefs. Since nothing is ever quite proved or disproved, the most unmistakable fact can be impudently denied. Moreover, although endlessly brooding on power, victory, defeat, revenge, the nationalist is often somewhat uninterested in what happens in the real world. What he wants is to feel that his own unit is getting the better of some other unit, and he can more easily do this by scoring off an adversary than by examining the facts to see whether they support him. All nationalist controversy is at the debating-society level. It is always entirely inconclusive, since each contestant invariably believes himself to have won the victory. Some nationalists are not far from schizophrenia, living quite happily amid dreams of power and conquest which have no connection with the physical world."

I'll stop there before I quote the majority of the essay. I think the most salient points he makes are at the end, when he begins to clarify that he's not only addressing a lunatic fringe, or even the obsessives that he describes earlier on, but rather that these serve as an extreme of a tendency present in everyone to some degree, and it's only after identifying our own forms of 'nationalism' (those ideas which we cling to beyond reason and factual basis) that we can engage our moral responsibility to resist those tendencies.

This is coming from a British point of view, and perhaps more directly parallels what's happening with regards to the British referendum to leave the EU and the underlying public beliefs that led to that vote, but there's plenty here that reflects the current US political climate as well. And, still, the rest of the world.

On a more personal note, I do feel concerned that, as someone who believes that the decision to leave the EU, and the Conservative party as a whole, are of a great net negative to the country, I'm exercising plenty of this nationalism/chauvinism myself, maybe consolidating my allegiance to the greater body of the EU, or maybe even a more general sense of internationalism, voluntarily rendering myself a 'citizen of nowhere', as our Prime Minister chose to refer. By abstracting my position, I render it much more difficult to be tethered by conflicting fact. Something to think about for me, at least.

Do read the whole essay. It's about 8000 words long, and I was constantly surprised and struck by just how contemporary a lot of what Orwell is saying is, even if he does seem to have a particular axe to grind regarding pacifists. (Perhaps understandably, what with the World War literally being only just coming an end.)

Thoughts?
 

Tauntaun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
348
will definitely read this when I i get back from work.

I've been thinking about this more and more especially after learning about some of the not so heroic things the allies did in the war and reconciling it with the history we were taught in school.

The revisionist history episode on churchill and the Bengal famine was eye opening, I definitely recommend checking it out.
 

Mr_Black

Banned for having an alt account
Member
Oct 27, 2017
969
Well its true it's something that isn't particulary "ahead of its time" you can go as far back as ancient Rome and Greece to see the same kind of struggles back in ancient history.

Altho Georgie boy reads a bit better because his works are relatively recent in history and . are thus easily transferable and digestible in our modern.day.

I watch Trump sometimes and the shit he comes out with is . unbelievable.

It's a consequence of failure of moral leadership and civic . responsibility of the Republican party for the last 8 years.

It's also a consequence of a trashy education system that clearly failed society completely as is evidenced by Donalds election.

What the fuck do they teach you in middle school history? Critical thinking is an extremely important skill to teach people. More than anything.

But here we are slowly but surely swirling down the toilet of, it's not just chauvinism it's a sinking ever permeating culture of narcissism that's infecting everything.

The ability to not even be able to consider yourself wrong ever. Because how could you be? You're smart and special.

The . unwillingness to enter the retail industry as a part time job. Retail isn't for me I'm special and better than that. My instagram heroes don't work retail.

And when faced with failure and economic disparity? Oh it can't be me because I'm special, it was those immigrants and trade deals.

This is embodied from the bottom of our culture to the top. Just like the opioid crisis. We also have a moral crisis. And it's all based on escapism. The unwillingness to face the reality. That it's your own fault.
 
OP
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Arkestry

Arkestry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,920
London
It's a consequence of failure of moral leadership and civic . responsibility of the Republican party for the last 8 years.

It's also a consequence of a trashy education system that clearly failed society completely as is evidenced by Donalds election.

What the fuck do they teach you in middle school history? Critical thinking is an extremely important skill to teach people. More than anything.

But here we are slowly but surely swirling down the toilet of, it's not just chauvinism it's a sinking ever permeating culture of narcissism that's infecting everything.

I think this is an interesting point that Orwell kind of makes through its inverse. He talks about the transferal of 'nationalism' of the intellectuals, because they're not able to be locally nationalistic as they're too informed about the flaws of their homeland. By which he's essentially saying that those who aren't informed are able to be nationalistic about where they're from, because they're not aware of those same flaws. Or they're better able to dismiss them, as we're seeing at the moment.
 
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OP
Arkestry

Arkestry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,920
London
Few more great quotes.

"All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts. A British Tory will defend self-determination in Europe and oppose it in India with no feeling of inconsistency. Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage — torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians — which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by 'our' side."

"The Eltons and Pritts and Coughlins, each of them simply an enormous mouth bellowing the same lie over and over again, are obviously extreme cases, but we deceive ourselves if we do not realise that we can all resemble them in unguarded moments. Let a certain note be struck, let this or that corn be trodden on — and it may be corn whose very existence has been unsuspected hitherto — and the most fair-minded and sweet-tempered person may suddenly be transformed into a vicious partisan, anxious only to 'score' over his adversary and indifferent as to how many lies he tells or how many logical errors he commits in doing so."

"The point is that as soon as fear, hatred, jealousy and power worship are involved, the sense of reality becomes unhinged. And, as I have pointed out already, the sense of right and wrong becomes unhinged also. There is no crime, absolutely none, that cannot be condoned when 'our' side commits it. Even if one does not deny that the crime has happened, even if one knows that it is exactly the same crime as one has condemned in some other case, even if one admits in an intellectual sense that it is unjustified — still one cannot feel that it is wrong. Loyalty is involved, and so pity ceases to function."
 

kristoffer

Banned
Oct 23, 2017
2,048
One of my favorite essayists. Thanks for sharing. I'd like to add that I hope people don't think Orwell wasn't in favor of the concept of a nation. In Writers and Leviathan (1948) I remember this bit where he was talking about paradoxes in leftist orthodoxy at the time:

The next blow to the left-wing ideology was the rise of Fascism, which shook the pacifism and internationalism of the Left without bringing about a definite restatement of doctrine. The experience of German occupation taught the European peoples something that the colonial peoples knew already, namely, that class antagonisms are not all-important and that there is such a thing as national interest. After Hitler it was difficult to maintain seriously that "the enemy is in your own country" and that national independence is of no value. But though we all know this and act upon it when necessary, we still feel that to say it aloud would be a kind of treachery.

This is after having been steeped in the postwar climate for a few years, so it's interesting to read his observations.
 

Chamaeleonx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,348
I think this is an interesting point that Orwell kind of makes through its inverse. He talks about the transferal of 'nationalism' of the intellectuals, because they're not able to be locally nationalistic as they're too informed about the flaws of their homeland. By which he's essentially saying that those who aren't informed are able to be nationalistic about where they're from, because they're not aware of those same flaws. Or they're better able to dismiss them, as we're seeing at the moment.
Knowledge and raising ones intelligence is always important and should, in the ideal situation, result in a more empathetic living being because it is objectively and logical correct to give everybody the same chance if you want your society to flourish and rise above and beyond.
The points you quoted are quite true and I will forever look at the people that thought the American education is anything else than garbage with huge disdain. Knowledge should be deep and broad and not build out of superficial facts you just regurgitate out of you each time it is asked of you. This simply would create modern slaves who, as he mentioned, miss critical thinking and (self) reflection.

Emotions truly can be our doom if leaved unchecked and without reflection.
 

HadesHotgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
871
Thank you for the link Arkestry. Based on the excerpts you provided, I'll probably read this before bed tonight.
 

BorkBork

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,725
When I am in need of courage or clarity I turn to Orwell's essays. I keepthisalways on my bookshelf, but I don't remember this particular piece. Thanks OP!
 

Don Fluffles

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,055
A lot of the points he brings up is the exact kind of shit that the alt-reich and Gamergaters pull.

Every. Single. Time.
 
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OP
Arkestry

Arkestry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,920
London
Another interesting application I think this has is towards second generation immigrants who get radicalised by the Islamic state.

Orwell talks about the transference of nationalism towards an exterior idea that is far enough removed from your own local circumstance that you can cherry pick the positives and remain ignorant of the negatives.

The part that I'm struggling with us whether these are ever-present forces that we have been largely unaware of, or if they're being stirred to a fever pitch at the moment.
 

Deleted member 11637

Oct 27, 2017
18,204
Great essay, Doug Stanhope gave the tl;dr version: "Nationalism just teaches you to hate people you never met."

There's also a century-old essay about debating Anti-Semite trolls that holds up perfectly by...Zola? I can't find it.