Its sad that this has become normal in a western country. I feel similar warnings will be given out to members of the LBGTQ+ community as well
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Germany's Jews urged not to wear kippahs after attacks
- Thread starter Reverse Giraffe
- Start date
Good old Germany, sigh.
We deport perfectly assimilated families because their residence permit expired, arrest the children of those families right at the schools, BUT we cannot deport those criminal scum because of "human rights".
We deport perfectly assimilated families because their residence permit expired, arrest the children of those families right at the schools, BUT we cannot deport those criminal scum because of "human rights".
...do you not believe in human rights? I think you should rephrase that, you make it sound pretty bad.
I think he's suggesting the current stance on human rights is hypocritical, based on the first two examples compared to the third.
It's the German State that does not believe or better said doesn't practice human rights with this. Why can law-obedient immigrants be deported while an antisemitic criminal "refugee" cannot?
They are not automatically considered right wing. If they are non-religious, non-leftist and not in any other way motivated that isn't right wing, then they are considered right wing if some kind of motivation can be seen.
There is also a category for antisemitic crimes that have no political motivation.
This point that the categorization is flawed isn't accurate if you ask me. I have heard it quite a few times recently.
https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik...-vier-antisemitische-straftaten/20949750.html
Human rights and the inability to deport people to unsafe places are important.
He makes it sound like A and B are wrong (which is true), but implies that C is wrong as well. C is fine.
I was just going off some articles I had read(like https://causa.tagesspiegel.de/kolum...antisemitismus-muss-ueberarbeitet-werden.html), but I'm very open to accept more information here. It's not like I'd be surprised that right-wing extremists are just the worst.
That's not how I took it. To me, it seemed like he was saying Germany was simply being hypocritical and inhumane, but I could be wrong.
Yes.
Germany recorded 1453 antisemitic crimes in 2017.
1377 are considered "rechts motiviert"(motivated by right wing ideology).
Keep in mind, though, that the majority of these cases are non-violent. Its usually "Volksverhetzung": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung
32 of the 1453 cases were actually violent crimes.
Unfortunately the data doesn't say which group is the main offender when looking at violent antisemitic crime.
Also keep in mind that these are only the recorded cases. Especially non-violent offenses often go unnoticed.
They were in no way a middle ground, lol. The CDU was like: "Come in everyone. We are in no way prepared but who cares."
If Muslims "are fucked up sometimes" then what the hell does that say about Christians who were "fucked up" most of their history?
What the fuck kind of statement is that anyways? With 1.5 billion Muslims on Earth, being "fucked up sometimes" would lead to worldwide Armageddon.
How about cleaning up your statement and saying: people are fucked up sometimes.
That's the inherent paradox of supporting himan rights - you have to give them even to those who don't believe in them.
Yes, it's better than the alternative, but it's still a big problem.
Refugees should get help even if they are antisemitic scum.
Yes, it's better than the alternative, but it's still a big problem.
Refugees should get help even if they are antisemitic scum.
Who is prepared, if not Germany? Something had to be done and Merkel, who was infamously irresolute in basically every discussion ever, made a deliberate decision. Right now things are not looking that good, but fact is that we rescued people of a war-torn country. Now we need to educate them.
Pretty straightforward if you ask me.
The article has a point, but the problem is not the categorization.
I would assume that muslim antisemitism tends to be responsible for the more grave offenses, which isn't reflected by the data.
Secondly, the dark figure probably includes tons of muslim antisemitic offenses that just aren't recorded.
Germany has an eye on the far right, the chances that their offenses go unregistered is probably way lower.
I mean if you remember at the time we had literally people waiting in tents at borders with winter slowly approaching and people being in danger of freezing to death.
You can argue (a lot) about how the aftermath of that immediate decision was handled, but I don't see a good alternative at that time.
Used to think about changing my last name as it is very Jewish sounding and we are not religious at all. More for my kids protection than for me. But then I think about how many millions suffered and died because of it and decided against it.
There is a stereotype to how we look. I look white as can be because my dad wasn't Jewish and I take after his side in looks. We can debate stereotypes all day but we can't deny it exists and that it colors the thinking of everyone.
Jag, I really get what you are saying. It's weird being a non practicing Jew yet still having that weight of history on your shoulders to carry the people forward through everything. Changing your name seems like it would almost feel like treason right?
I don't think anyone is suggesting that it was a mistake. In my eyes, the mistake made was not pushing for greater assimilation into German culture and society. This is a culture clash.
I mean, the problem lingered on the horizon for a pretty long time and no one gave a fuck. Neither was there any help near the area (still by far the best solution in my opinion), nor did the country prepare itself when it was still very possible to do. Letting everyone in was a bad decision and pretty much any reasonable person knew that it would lead to problems. The CDU also offered no long-term strategy and pretty much all the parties were in line, except for the AFD and somewhat the CSU (which wasn't relevant). With no middle ground there, I don't blame anyone for choosing the AFD, regardless of whether they were/are actually electable or not (they aren't). It still sends a message at least which annoying people exploited to make stupid points/further whatever narrative they have.
I'm pretty sure that was exactly what the post I was responding to was saying, not sure how you could read it otherwise.
Agree with the rest of your post, and there are a few other things as well that could have been done besides that.
I agree with both that it was ignored for too long and that the strategy afterwards is highly debatable and improvable.
In that situation though I'm not sure how you can say the decision was a mistake, it was the more humane option. That it came to that situation is greatly criticizable, that is true.
These stereotypes vary between the US and Europe, though. Unless you wear a Kippah or have payots people won't think that you are a jew.
I was actually asked whether or not I am jewish in the US several times. Never happened to me before. My last name is "Klein" and some Americans apparently think thats a jewish last name.
Still, nobody should be concerned about "looking jewish" in Germany.
I disagree that it colors the thinking of everyone. The only way I think "is this person Jewish?" is when I see someone dressed in a garb that I'm not quite sure about. The only way I can identify a Jewish person is if they somehow make it clear, by clothing or words. And I'm not saying I'm "special" or "enlightened", I think this is the case for most Austrians (and presumably Germans).
The thing I really take issue with is you saying you "can go undercover" with blonde hair and green eyes. So many of my friends have black hair, brown eyes, and nobody ever assumes anything about them the way you seem to think.
Maybe I'm being naive, but I really don't see this happening besides extreme outliers.
EDIT: 1.21Gigawatts said it well. I didn't even think about the difference between the US and the EU here.
depends on the country they come from. It's a good thing that Germany doesn't deport even criminals to unsafe countries, though I'm aware that there's an active effort to redefine which country is "safe"
I thought the post you were responding to was arguing that the way it was handled was not a 'middle ground. I may have just misunderstood his point, though.
The EU as a whole still doesn't have a fucking coherent plan either for the next crisis. Parts of the East basically told the South-west to go fuck itself and any attempts to reform the quota system are being blocked. Hell, we all failed Italy and Greece.
Let's hope to God another MENA country doesn't collapse in the next 10 years, though I fully expect Trump to bomb Iran soon because reasons. At least we finally have something resembling a border force.
Let's hope to God another MENA country doesn't collapse in the next 10 years, though I fully expect Trump to bomb Iran soon because reasons. At least we finally have something resembling a border force.
Pretty much yeah.
As far as Germany taking in refugees, they have some of the best Holocaust education and laws in the world. Probably the best place for refugees to learn tolerance.
I'm saying it was a bad decision, just as how different decisions at that late of a point would have been bad decisions as well. And that's the objective view. Depending on your moral compass and views, some bad decisions can be worse while others can be acceptable.
That was in the beginning and I think it got accepted (?) that there was indeed a lack of middle ground, so that it now shifted to another point of discussion.
Should have expected this when people from religious conservative countries got let in en masse. Guess people like me who back in the old place argued for the 2015 refugee policy were proven to be idiots in the end. Sigh.
CDU/AFD coalition next election I guess.
CDU/AFD coalition next election I guess.
I can only speak from my experiences as an American Jew. I've seen it so many times where someone either had a dark complexion, curly hair, a larger than average nose, and people just go on to assume that's what they are here. Must be an American thing. Last names too. Klein is a very Jewish last name here in the states at least and so that gets put on everyone. Mine is Hunt thanks to my dad so when I say I'm an undercover Jew I mean it heh.
Sigh. Embarrassed to be a muslim. This is why no one likes muslims. Absolutely shameful behavior. These people opened their doors and let you in their country, and you go around sexually assaulting women in public and assaulting jews for being jews.
This is where Islam being a decentralized religion really hurts. We have no pope who can come out and say hey, fucking stop harrassing jews you cunts. It's 2018, get over your hatred of jews and just be fucking nice to people. It sucks that it needs to be said but these brainwashed drones need someone to drill it in their head. We have no one who wants or is willing to change Islam. Everyone seems to be fine with the status quo and are mostly concerned with playing the victim. Majid Nawaz seems to be the only voice of reason and he is shamed by pretty much all muslims.
This will continue unless Muslims do something about this. People stabbing jewish grandmas in u.k, snatching off yamakas in france, and now Germany. This is simply unacceptable and muslims need to be marching in the streets telling everyone we are not like these assholes and demand their deportation.
It should be noted that Germany is partially responsible for this situation. In the U.S, we dont just let anyone in. Green cards are handed out to a select few, refugees are vetted for two years before they get in and guess what? Despite the U.S having the largest jewish population outside of Israel, we all seem to get along. You simply cannot let everyone in. Just allow the most educated, most talented, and most liberal people in. If you have issues with jews and LGBT, you dont belong in a western society. We already have enough nazis and homophobes in our societies who were born here, but immigration isnt a right, it's a privilege and we should ALL vet the shit out of these guys and deport them the moment they display any of this abhorrent behavior. One strike policy.
This is where Islam being a decentralized religion really hurts. We have no pope who can come out and say hey, fucking stop harrassing jews you cunts. It's 2018, get over your hatred of jews and just be fucking nice to people. It sucks that it needs to be said but these brainwashed drones need someone to drill it in their head. We have no one who wants or is willing to change Islam. Everyone seems to be fine with the status quo and are mostly concerned with playing the victim. Majid Nawaz seems to be the only voice of reason and he is shamed by pretty much all muslims.
This will continue unless Muslims do something about this. People stabbing jewish grandmas in u.k, snatching off yamakas in france, and now Germany. This is simply unacceptable and muslims need to be marching in the streets telling everyone we are not like these assholes and demand their deportation.
It should be noted that Germany is partially responsible for this situation. In the U.S, we dont just let anyone in. Green cards are handed out to a select few, refugees are vetted for two years before they get in and guess what? Despite the U.S having the largest jewish population outside of Israel, we all seem to get along. You simply cannot let everyone in. Just allow the most educated, most talented, and most liberal people in. If you have issues with jews and LGBT, you dont belong in a western society. We already have enough nazis and homophobes in our societies who were born here, but immigration isnt a right, it's a privilege and we should ALL vet the shit out of these guys and deport them the moment they display any of this abhorrent behavior. One strike policy.
It hasn't even been 100 years yet since the holocaust was exposed, and we're already seeing echoes of it again.
Only now, in addition to nationalists kicking things off, we have religious extremists too.
Only now, in addition to nationalists kicking things off, we have religious extremists too.
You're talking about asylum though, which is a human right.
Education is meaningless if the parents are hammering into their kids head that the education system is wrong and that Jews are the enemy.
Yeah, since you were talking about your family in Germany, I wanted to point out that over here, visual stereotypes are not a thing in that way. Same with name recognition. If you wanted to be an "undercover Jew", it'd be much less of a worry over here.
It sounds actually unimaginable to me that someone would wonder if someone is Jewish from what you described alone.. dark complexion could be so many things, curly hair is just that, curly hair, and large noses are usually just joked about being related to having a large penis...
The casual racism here is astounding. Like people in every day conversation talking about how they will jew someone down on price, like it's no big deal using a derogatory thing like that. When I've called people out on it they were actually confused. Like they didn't know that was a wrong thing. Yay Murica!
It's not like casual racism isn't a thing here, but there are very few Jewish people (Judaism: 0.1% in Austria VS 2% in the US), so that's not the main target of casual racism. You'll find that (for example) Turkish people are much more of a "target" in that regard.
And of course, stereotypes against Jews still exist. When I talked about problems with my Jewish landlord to my friends, his false friendliness and focus on money in every conversation were identified as "stereotypically Jewish".
But I do think we are more careful with casual anti-semitism here because of our history. Everyone is aware of the terrible things our country did, which makes it much harder for phrases like "jewing someone down on price" to become casual. It'd stick out like a sore thumb.
Are you basing this off of your feelings or off of conversations you've had with Jewish people?
Same thing happens in Germany. It's not as uncommon as it should be that people are called jew for being stingy (by native Germans without muslim background).
I mean, I'm basing it off my experiences and conversations I've had, but much more my own experiences, being from a country with, as I said, a Jewish population of 0,1%. I'm mostly basing it off the stereotypes I do and don't experience in everyday life.
Do you disagree? Vienna is quite the melting pot, with ~30% citizens with immigration background if I recall correctly. There are groups with dark complexion and curly hair which are bigger than the Jewish population, and in 29 years, I've never heard seen anyone visually identify someone without specific garbs as Jewish.
Do you think it's so unlikely for what I'm saying to be true? Do you have different experiences?
Seriously? I've not once come across this. Do you mind sharing where you had these experiences? East/west, urban/rural areas, young/old people. I don't want to spread misinformation, obviously.
just listen to the response to the question about the holocaust by palestinians
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TJzclHiQIY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TJzclHiQIY
eh. pretty obvious i didnt literally mean that all 7 billion people on this planet dislike muslims. it's a figure of speech.
the anti-muslim hysteria is part of the reason why we got Trump, why Brexit happened and the rise of the far right in so many European countries. it would be accurate to say that Muslims arent exactly viewed in the most positive light nowadays.
Bavaria, Franconia to be more specific. I guess its more common in rural areas, but it isn't just old people, I heard it from people in their 20s and 30s. They don't mean it dead serious, but it's not something I can laugh about.
The same kind of people also like to keep saying "Neger", because in their mind it was okay to use in the past so it has to be okay now.
I see. I may be spoiled by being a true city boy (Vienna), where coexistence probably leads to faster adaption to new standards of what is and isn't acceptable. Of course, I don't have any studies to back this up, but from the experiences available to me (my family, friends and my own), it is actually very rare.