-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Germany's Jews urged not to wear kippahs after attacks
- Thread starter Reverse Giraffe
- Start date
I think part of the problem is we've essentially let the far-right set the terms of debate surrounding anything related to integration/immigration in Europe for too long since other parties appeared to tiptoe around the issues, to the point where you can't discuss the topic without someone suggesting all Muslims are inherently evil and out to replace us or whatever shite I've seen them trot out. There's a clearly a problem and it needs addressing (something we all should have done sooner), preferably before all nuance is thrown out the window and we're left with a large proportion of people calling for deportations of our fellow citizens.
Little bit of both I'm guessing.
As good as the German government is at shutting down anti-Semitism online, the internet is a big place. That's my theory at least.
Sure some do give a fuck and use that as an excuse to act, nothing new.
In most muslim counrties they get spoonfed anti semitism and in big parts of germany it happens as well either from a religious site or a political one. I mean we have at least one holocaust denier in a state parliament and several people who are clearly anti-semit in different parliaments all across the country and im pretty sure it wasn´t the refugees who voted them there.
It really isn't, though.
Even though Nazis are often portrayed as a cartoonish evil, they really aren't.
People should read Hannah Arendts "The Banality Of Evil", about the sheer normalcy and averageness of the people who supported or were directly responsible for the Holocaust.
Nazis were average, everyday people. And thinking that it takes some special form of malice to be a Nazi today is a huge mistake.
Nazis were essentially just nationalists, and the potential for evil was based on the commonness of nationalist views in Nazi Germany. Thats all it took and the building blocks of this catastrophe are still present everywhere today.
The lowest common denominator of Nazis was basically just "Germany first" and the rest was taken of by a frightening group dynamic.
Their plain existence in Germany send the more gullible in society to the far right.
There are way too many knee-jerk reactions in this thread.
Well, my parents are from Turkey and I certainly do give a fuck about Palestinians. I participated in many demonstrations over the years and always left, when people chanted antisemitic things, because they can't distinguish the Palestine situation with Jews per se.
Honestly it is either this or something else. As harsh as it sounds.
It would help people learn that it isn't acceptable which would atleast help prevent these attacks if it didn't stop the hatred of Jews.
This is so heartbreaking. My grandmother is still alive. She survived the Shoah and decided to stay in Germany because it is her home. She shouldn't have to witness this.
That said, most anti-semitic violence is still perpetrated by right-wing extremists and it is dangerous to paint all muslim migrants with broad strokes. The overwhelming majority is not responsible for this. We need to have more open dialogue without invoking the all to common islamophobia and stereotypes that groups like the AfD (who certainly do not give a fuck about Jews, anyone remember Höcke?) latch onto.
That said, most anti-semitic violence is still perpetrated by right-wing extremists and it is dangerous to paint all muslim migrants with broad strokes. The overwhelming majority is not responsible for this. We need to have more open dialogue without invoking the all to common islamophobia and stereotypes that groups like the AfD (who certainly do not give a fuck about Jews, anyone remember Höcke?) latch onto.
Yeah, let's act like everything was completely fine in Germany and those refugees destroyed the peaceful heaven-like situation we were in before they tainted our holy grounds.
Hmm, in hindsight it seems pretty easy to rile germans up just enough so they are willing to vote for racists. Didn't take that much, did it?
Probably to talk openly and honestly about it and not let the discussion be derailed by fear of being called racist.
But what if someone shows his racist views in that discussion? Wouldn't it be also open and honest to call it what it is then?
may I remind you of the AfD
there's plenty of good in Germany, and plenty of bad too
this post reads to me like the refugees ruined a perfectly good thing. Over a million people found a new home in Germany in recent years, coming from war-torn countries. There will be anti-semites and racists among them, just like we had our fair share of bad people before they arrived
I disagree tbh. Nazis were normal in the 30s because it was basically mainstream German politics, that much I agree. But to be an actual Nazi (nb, I think the left/Era throw the word around so much to make it almost meaningless - Nazi does not equal just racist or anti-semitic, it's a specific thing with its own set of signifiers) in the 21st century takes a conscious effort of will. If someone is an actual nazi in 2018 they have decided to be evil, pure and simple. They've decided they are against the whole world and want to keep a dead, failed, evil ideology alive.
User Banned (1 Week): For a continued pattern of hostility towards other members.
Just like when people here make bigoted statements right? Do we need to let the discussion happen instead of stifling it, right?
Turks and Syrians have never needed the palestinian cause to justify anti-jewish hatred.
Whatever happens in the middle east is just a mere excuse to justify anti-jewish hatred towards jewish people for DARING to not know their place. You see the same shit in America from white racists.
No, what he's talking about is treating Islam exactly like other religions such as Christianity when it comes to criticism.
Dude idk if you're even being serious or if this is a trap. I do think that threads get locked and people get banned too readily, but it's not my site, the mods can do as they please.
All societies will change over time. All immigrants will change societies they settle down in. Change is scary, because not all change is good. And what isn't good is the fear that runs a lot of our descision making.
I read a study where researchers had a hypothesis that there might be a built-in hunter-gatherer mechanism, where people see outsiders / strangers as a threat, as a survival response.
The idea is that 10,000-25,000 years ago, interacting with a different tribe could yield death or sickness or fighting over resources.
It's this idea that we have tribal instincts that makes us very territorial and aggressive towards outsiders who we see as a threat. I've looked for the study but cannot find it:/
It does sound plausible in the sense that on every level of society we tend to be further removed from those that are further away from us. We're interested and curious as long as it's at a distance. The whole world is "exotic" and like a themepark if you're just visting from the rose tinted glasses of your white eyes. But dig closer, you're less close to those in the next village, in the next state, in the next country, in the next continent.
"Those are people over there. We're here. They should deal with their shit. We got enough shit and problems on our plate".(isolationism).
Immigrants don't bring more crime and they don't steal jobs that are meaningful to European populations. But that doesn't matter to a lot of people, because it *feels* like they are. It feels like they are because their integration happens while massive fluctuations happen in society. Immigration and representation happens while millions and millions of people fall on hard time. Blaming the immigrants is always the go-to scapegoat.
The way I look at it is this. I don't blame the radicalization on islam, because most people of muslim faith in Europe are decent people who support and stand up for the values, laws and opinions we have here. IMO the real culprit is exactly like it is for any other group; sexually frustrated, aggressive men who are not adjusted. What are the difference? It's exactly the same shit. Doesn't matter if you glorify ISIS or Hitler.
They are the same type of people with different cultural backgrounds. And like other poorly adjusted men who are losing out, they'd not go down this rabbit hole if they had worth. If they had shit going on. If they had relationships, careers and prospects. They people who become suicide bombers are so far gone and so damaged, just like the people who join neo-nazi groups.
The takeaway is that we need to focus much much more on young men who are lost in the system. I'm certain that fundamentalist extremists have a world in common with incels. It just manifests differently, but that doesn't matter. That's not the actual triggers going on from behind the scenes. People can become insane, irrational and pathalogical from isolationism. We love our lives more in isolation before, so one can imagine that immigrants who feel alienated from society are at a greater risk. Our social skills are vastly decreasing as we rely more on tech. A lot of young people cannot even properly communicate anymore or pick up on social awareness on even a basic level.
And so, if you're someone who don't have those basic skills you're going to be in for a hard time. You cannot get a good job because you're fucking weird and creepy. You cannot get a girlfriend because you're robotic and animated. You cannot get friends because you make everyone feel uneasy. And this combination of things just escalates throughout your life as you become a loser, and as you become a loser you seek the comfort online of other online communities that sell you the answer. You're a big boy. You're a good boy. It's these people over here who are to blame. It's all these people. You're special. So hate these people.
In the next ten years, you're going to see a lot more of the ramifications of the increase in men who are dropping out of society and falling through the cracks at 5x or 10x the rate of women. From high school to higher education, they've failed to adjust education in the 21th century. As the old patriarch dominated guard dies off male CEOs, you'll see a lot of women getting into roles of leadership and that is great, but you have to wonder what is happening to all those men who failed and flunked at some point. Here you have many university course where it's 60-80% women. It's scary that men are performing so poorly in so many areas. One has to wonder why they cannot adjust.
As part of their integration briefing, i hope the German officials are recruiting local Imams/western muslim leaders to dispel the putrid rhetoric some of the refugees are indoctrinated with about Jews from these places they're coming from. And learn to separate the appalling acts of Israel from Jews.
Last edited:
ugh, there really needs to harsher punishment for racist/bigoted attacks. this sort of shit can otherwise ruin a society so fast..
anyone violently attacking another person because of race/religion should lose a decade of their life in prison. make them REALLY think twice before acting on their hatred. maybe let them out after 5-7 years if a team of psychologists have evaluated the person to be fully reformed.
hell, install more cameras in public places so these fuckheads can't get away with it.
this is some really serious shit IMO. drastic measures needed before it's too late and the divisions are too strong. just remove bigots from society, zero tolerance. we can't afford to go into this direction in Europe, not now or ever again.
anyone violently attacking another person because of race/religion should lose a decade of their life in prison. make them REALLY think twice before acting on their hatred. maybe let them out after 5-7 years if a team of psychologists have evaluated the person to be fully reformed.
hell, install more cameras in public places so these fuckheads can't get away with it.
this is some really serious shit IMO. drastic measures needed before it's too late and the divisions are too strong. just remove bigots from society, zero tolerance. we can't afford to go into this direction in Europe, not now or ever again.
First of all, I disagree that the problem is simply "migrants", but let's go with your argument for a minute:
If you want to talk in that direction, we need to clarify what "migrant" means.
Migrants are residents without citizenship, migrants are citizens, migrants are refugees. It needs to made clear that refugees and citizens can not, can never, be "kicked out" like this.
And it would be foolish to assume that only non-citizen, non-refugee migrants are anti-semites. So... what now?
How is this Germany's fault? The country did the humane thing and accepted hundreds of thousands of Muslim refugees, and with them came this new anti-Semitism. What exactly should Germany have done?
If someone calls themselves a Nazi thats another thing, that requires a conscious agreement with Nazi atrocities.
What I am saying is that increasingly common far right positions are practically indistinguishable from the majority opinions that lead to the Holocaust.
Anti-refugee rhetoric today is no different from the antisemitic rhetoric back then. Dehumanizing language("Waves of invaders), us vs. them thinking, broad generalizations, deeply nationalist convictions("I don't have anything against them as long as they stay were they came from")
The AfD is representing exactly the mindset the Nazis held high and its becoming more popular every day, not just in Germany but across Europe and the US.
My point is that people have a crooked cartoonish view of what actual Nazis were, so they don't notice how similar they themselves have become. And then they are mad when people use the "Nazikeule", even though in most cases its actually appropriate.
Instead of judging Nazis by Nazi ideology, their actions have become the characterizing factors of Nazis. So anyone who doesn't actively support genocide can't be a Nazi? Nonsense, instead we have to look at the underlying ideology.
I posted it in another thread before, but I strongly recommend people read some of Carl Schmitts work. He was one of the leading political theorists of the 3rd Reich and basically provided the ideological framework of Nazis Germanys political system.
Understanding this ideology is crucial when you want to find similarities in todays world.
Carl Schmitt: Nazi-era philosopher who wrote blueprint for New Authoritarianism
http://theconversation.com/carl-sch...rote-blueprint-for-new-authoritarianism-59835
Politics Above Law: How Trump channels Far Right icon Carl Schmitt without Knowing It
https://mronline.org/2017/09/09/pol...r-right-icon-carl-schmitt-without-knowing-it/
Senior Trump adviser compared to renowned Nazi by editor of 'neo-con bible' Weekly Standard
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...neoconservative-weekly-standard-a7563936.html
This one is especially interesting because parts Carl Schmitts work were deliberately picked up by the US's neocon movement, so they know what they are talking about.
I doubt that Trump ever even heard of Carl Schmitt, though.
This topic about antisemitism among Muslims is so tricky because its a real and pressing issue, but its completely politicized by the right because it involves immigrants and refugees. For them its a way to further attack these groups, but also a way to distract from antisemitism in their own ranks.
Well the ones I am talking about are non civilians, as in doesn't have a citizenship.
Now if we are talking about civilians then that's a whole different issue.
Yeah, that's my main problem with the "just send them off" concept.
I believe that if you take all anti-semitic people, a huge chunk of them will be people who you can't send anywhere at all.
You can't deport to unsafe countries regardless of refugee or migration status.
You also can't deport people who don't have any papers. Where would you send them?
You also can't just use deportation as a punishment for antisemitic opinions. You have to prove that the individual is a "grave risk for public safety", which isn't easy.
"Sending them back" is just not a feasible option in the vast majority of cases.
And even in the cases where it is an option, it can take years until it goes, through, because the person in question obviously has the right to go through the legal system.
Yeah, I really wish we could solve that problem as many people who do seek refuge in Germany isn't like that. It is just that those who do these things makes it worst for everyone else including Jews and other refugees. The alt right folks are using this thing as an excuse to be anti immigration not because they care about it but because it helps their agenda.
I really feel for the Jews who are affected by it. It really feels like shit. This issue really need to be tackled.
Not that surprising when you don't give people the option of taking the middle ground.
I get it. This problem is a really complicated mess but they should still try to fix it. I get not sending them back (because as you said, it is not possible) but I feel we need harsher laws as to stop these attacks atleast. If there are some kind of punishment then I am sure people would tone it down atleast.
There have been talks about EU funded refugee camps in northern africa so deportations could be done to them.
It would be something to see millions of people wearing them in solidarity. Of course if it can't be done respectfully it shouldn't be.
Lots of people on the left wing of politics are anti-Semitic. As we currently see with the debacle in the UK Labour party.
Antisemitism is a problem on the left and the right.
What makes this complicated is that you can't really punish refugees in a constructive way. Lets say you take away their benefits, that only pushes them further into crime.
The only way I see is massive investments in education to at least prevent the next generations of immigrants to hold these views.
I mean, how did Denazification work in Germany? Lets do that again.
That doesn't fix the problem, though. That just pushes it out of sight. Until it washes back up on European shores.
I work in a sports betting center in Germany and due to the nature of our business we have a very diverse customer mix.
One thing that happens very very often and basically like a "normal thing" is that customers of ours, especially those from middle eastern backgrounds, will talk about "The Jews" and how they are "destroying everything" and "keeping people from what they should have". This usually happens when people bet on something and lose. Which happens a lot.
I also got asked quite often if the boss of our company "Is a Jew" because apparently "that would explain why he (the customer) never wins here".
So, yeah this is reality.
One thing that happens very very often and basically like a "normal thing" is that customers of ours, especially those from middle eastern backgrounds, will talk about "The Jews" and how they are "destroying everything" and "keeping people from what they should have". This usually happens when people bet on something and lose. Which happens a lot.
I also got asked quite often if the boss of our company "Is a Jew" because apparently "that would explain why he (the customer) never wins here".
So, yeah this is reality.
Perhaps education would work but it needs time.
The worst part about it is that it takes time which really sucks for the Jews who only want to live in peace.
I saw a video of a few protestors yesterday and I a few were wearing skullcaps out of solidarity, even politicians including Cem Ozdemir were doing it. Would send a powerful message if people across the political and religious spectrum wore them.
Pity the protests were shut down due to threats :/
I have heard about the situation in the UK, but I am not really familiar with it.
Antisemitism on the left isn't really a common thing in Germany, though.
The few instances I have seen were either strong opposition towards Israel, but disconnected from Jews individuals, and obviously strong opposition to globalization based on a conspiratorial world view where "(((globalists)))"(Jews) are the bad guys. But I don't recall any cases of antisemitic violence from the far left. We should keep an eye on it, obviously, but at the moment it doesn't look like an issue in Germany.
Back in February there was an inquiry in the Bundestag into antisemitic crime in Germany.
Out of 1453 crimes(violent and non-violent) in 2017, one nonviolent ("https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung") offense was categorized as "leftist motivated".
https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik...-vier-antisemitische-straftaten/20949750.html
CDU is the middle ground. The difference this time is they actually made a sensible choice - thanks to Merkel.
Nah, not only the next generation. The current generation needs to experience some education as well and make it mandatory, set up potential consequences if not followed and all that.
These are things that NEED to be done. You can't take in a million people of an underdeveloped country and expect that everything goes smoothly.
It's good that you take them in, but that's not enough.
Well, until then the decent people in Germany need to be a alert and look out for their fellow jewish citizens.
Don't look past antisemitism, even in its most basic forms (jokes etc.).
Its good that the whole "Echo" thing is going down currently. Sends a message to people that this shit is not okay.
Pretty much says it all.
On the same day the "Berlin wears Kipa" demonstration took place, a man wearing a Kipa was attacked in Schöneberg.
https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/art...wird-antisemitisch-auf-Strasse-beleidigt.html
In Neukölln (muslim migrant hotspot) a simultaneous Kipa demonstration had to be cancelled after 15 mins because of physical attacks.
https://www.bz-berlin.de/berlin/neukoelln/demonstranten-bei-antisemitismus-demo-attackiert
Welcome to Germany 2018 smh
On the same day the "Berlin wears Kipa" demonstration took place, a man wearing a Kipa was attacked in Schöneberg.
https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/art...wird-antisemitisch-auf-Strasse-beleidigt.html
In Neukölln (muslim migrant hotspot) a simultaneous Kipa demonstration had to be cancelled after 15 mins because of physical attacks.
https://www.bz-berlin.de/berlin/neukoelln/demonstranten-bei-antisemitismus-demo-attackiert
Welcome to Germany 2018 smh
I would appreciate some kind of training for every refugee where European and Western values are taught and its also made clear that this isn't optional. That german law is above Islamic law, their concept of honor and their traditions.
But then again, refugees are only a tiny fraction of the problem. What about the immigrants who are already here, already citizens? What about the right wingers who were born here and are responsible for the vast majority of antisemitic crimes?
@ the bolded: Absolutely.
My mother works with pre-kindergarten children with severe disabilities, basically to help them develop as well as possible as early as possible. A bunch of families she visits are recent immigrants, also some refugees.
A friend of mine teaches German to adults, from the ground up. Also many recent immigrants and refugees, obviously.
The anecdotes I hear make it clear that proper education is vital, especially when it comes to adapting to values like respect regarding other religions and women.
Those are failings from the past unfortunately. Germany did a whole lot of nothing in order to integrate "Gastarbeiter" and the immigrants on the other hand didn't do much either, but that's another discussion altogether.
Right now we need to take issue with whatever refugees think.
Probably.
According to one statistic I read, 94% of anti-semitic crimes are identified as right-wing.
The problem is that many anti-semitic acts are automatically identified as right-wing. So the statistics are kinda questionable? Maybe?