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Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
This might be an unusual response and I honestly do not pose it with the intention of deriding DICE (much):

The gifs that have been (rightly) brought forth in this thread to counter the notion that BF was historically accurate (aside from its core game-y aspects) ought to be put in context that historically EA and DICE have marketed the game as "authentic" time and again. Over time, with improving audio and visual technology, these (mostly unchanging) fictitious elements/aspects have essentially cemented themselves as the "Normal" and dev talk of "Realism" conflated with "Accuracy" by some if not many folks (including the degenerates).

Lest we forget, story driven military shooters have existed for decades. With improvement of technology and proliferation of affordable platforms that allowed (and allows) one to play them, they have become common place today. In all that time, they have shaped our perspective of what is "right", "normal", "realistic" and our expectations by a mostly straight white male dominated industry and for the same (and younger) demographics. And while they slowly became part of the zeitgeist, they quite successfully obfuscated the notion that any of it was "political".

So when DICE wanted to explicitly break the chains of "authenticity" the entire industry had tailored suit their primary demographics over the decades, by featuring women in prominence with BFV, it suddenly became jarring to see juxtaposed against the rest of fictitious pile of game mechanics and animations that did not register as anything other than "normal" and "realistic". Suddenly, it became a "political" notion because as aforementioned, that concept is only reserved for aspects pertaining to representation, thanks in no small part to an industry that has cultivated the toxic straight (preferably white) boy's club demographics (which has gotten louder but also smaller in comparison to the number of people who now actually play games).

Now that gaming is more global than ever before and our socio-political awareness, on a grander scale has expanded, changes have been seen occurring within the industry. As diversity becomes part of development side so shall the previous aspects in fictional settings be redefined. The new normal will take time but it has begun and will continue to evolve (mostly) for the better.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,912
Most of the time its just assholes exposing their own bigotry and just masking it behind "facts". Im sure it happens subconsciously to a good amount.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,583
This might be an unusual response and I honestly do not pose it with the intention of deriding DICE (much):

The gifs that have been (rightly) brought forth in this thread to counter the notion that BF was historically accurate (aside from its core game-y aspects) ought to be put in context that historically EA and DICE have marketed the game as "authentic" time and again. Over time, with improving audio and visual technology, these (mostly unchanging) fictitious elements/aspects have essentially cemented themselves as the "Normal" and dev talk of "Realism" conflated with "Accuracy" by some if not many folks (including the degenerates).

Lest we forget, story driven military shooters have existed for decades. With improvement of technology and proliferation of affordable platforms that allowed (and allows) one to play them, they have become common place today. In all that time, they have shaped our perspective of what is "right", "normal", "realistic" and our expectations by a mostly straight white male dominated industry and for the same (and younger) demographics. And while they slowly became part of the zeitgeist, they quite successfully obfuscated the notion that any of it was "political".

So when DICE wanted to explicitly break the chains of "authenticity" the entire industry had tailored suit their primary demographics over the decades, by featuring women in prominence with BFV, it suddenly became jarring to see juxtaposed against the rest of fictitious pile of game mechanics and animations that did not register as anything other than "normal" and "realistic". Suddenly, it became a "political" notion because as aforementioned, that concept is only reserved for aspects pertaining to representation, thanks in no small part to an industry that has cultivated the toxic straight (preferably white) boy's club demographics (which has gotten louder but also smaller in comparison to the number of people who now actually play games).

Now that gaming is more global than ever before and our socio-political awareness, on a grander scale has expanded, changes have been seen occurring within the industry. As diversity becomes part of development side so shall the previous aspects in fictional settings be redefined. The new normal will take time but it has begun and will continue to evolve (mostly) for the better.
I saw nothing in BFV that was historically inaccurate.

Whiners seem to have conflated "presence of one woman in a group of 4" to somehow mean "women make up 1/4th of all fighting done".

Me, I take a much more logical approach to realism:

-Did at least 1 woman exist on the planet during the time that WW2 was going on?
-Is history unable to tell us what every single person was doing for the entire duration of WW2?
-Do people in desperate situations ever work outside the typical chain of command and form unusual alliances?

Yes, yes, and yes. Therefore, there was nothing inaccurate going on.

All cries to realism were the warbling of chuds, destined to be consigned to the dustbin of history and best ignored.
 

louis89

Member
Jun 11, 2018
69
Tokyo
Battlefield V sold through 7.3 million copies despite the insane competition of the holiday season.
On 5 February 2019, EA's CEO Andrew Wilson announced that the game ultimately failed to meet sales expectations, blaming the game's marketing as well as their focus on developing a single-player campaign instead of a battle royalemode, a genre which had gained recent widespread popularity. Wilson also highlighted Battlefield V's long development cycle, and release in a month of strong competition. EA's stock prices also faced its worst drop in more than a decade during its third quarter of the fiscal year, declining by around 18 percent, which EA attributed in part to the poor sales of the game.


dot dot dot
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
I saw nothing in BFV that was historically inaccurate.

Whiners seem to have conflated "presence of one woman in a group of 4" to somehow mean "women make up 1/4th of all fighting done".

Me, I take a much more logical approach to realism:

-Did at least 1 woman exist on the planet during the time that WW2 was going on?
-Is history unable to tell us what every single person was doing for the entire duration of WW2?
-Do people in desperate situations ever work outside the typical chain of command and form unusual alliances?

Yes, yes, and yes. Therefore, there was nothing inaccurate going on.

For me, personally, it was never about accuracy though. I mean, when was the last time folks IRL could regenerate bullet by simply walking over med pack. I am talking about the cultivation of a demographic via use of key words or phrases over years to weave a narrative of the representation of "norm" from both marketing and gameplay perspectives. Essentially Frankenstein's monster has come bite the doctor in the ass.

It is essentially a closed cultural feedback loop from development to reception. The loop does not break but expands at opportune moments through time to incrementally redefine parts of its parameters.

Suffice it to say, it is all the more necessary for both big and small devs to do better job with representations to redefine the "norm".
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,583
For me, personally, it was never about accuracy though. I mean, when was the last time folks IRL could regenerate bullet by simply walking over med pack. I am talking about the cultivation of a demographic via use of key words or phrases over years to weave a narrative of the representation of "norm" from both marketing and gameplay perspectives. Essentially Frankenstein's monster has come bite the doctor in the ass.

It is essentially a closed cultural feedback loop from development to reception. The loop does not break but expands at opportune moments through time to incrementally redefine parts of its parameters.

Suffice it to say, it is all the more necessary for both big and small devs to do better job with representations to redefine the "norm".
That's true. I guess my response was less to you, and moreso a continuation as to the very conveniently specific conflation and interpretation of what "realistic" means to chuds.
 
Feb 3, 2018
1,130
I also hate this meme but looking at Batwoman trailer being downvoted to oblivion even by non biggots reminds me of a discussion that was had here on corporate wokeness when all they do is pander without actually caring about the issues of representation and only do it as a marketing ploy.

Batwoman was a show I really was looking forward too but man that trailer really put me off, it just seems they are really pandering and keeps saying look how good our representation is.

I love Kate Kane from the comics her being lesbian and in the military showing the hardships she went through under don't ask don't tell and how she created the Batwoman persona was a storyline I really loved.

And Ruby as Kate was a great casting choice however the dialouge seems just aweful.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
I also hate this meme but looking at Batwoman trailer being downvoted to oblivion even by non biggots reminds me of a discussion that was had here on corporate wokeness when all they do is pander without actually caring about the issues of representation and only do it as a marketing ploy.

Batwoman was a show I really was looking forward too but man that trailer really put me off, it just seems they are really pandering and keeps saying look how good our representation is.

I love Kate Kane from the comics her being lesbian and in the military showing the hardships she went through under don't ask don't tell and how she created the Batwoman persona was a storyline I really loved.

And Ruby as Kate was a great casting choice however the dialouge seems just aweful.
No amount of positive representation can save genuinely bad writing or production. See also: The Dark Tower movie adaptation and the Josh Trank Fantastic Four movie.
 

Deleted member 4532

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,936
Or - if you're TheQuartering - you just outrightly admit you're doing this for financial reasons, even if you generally agree with the outrage, because you know your fanbase will still believe you're earnest and not-a-grifter despite admitting you're a grifter:

"Exposing Brie Larson"
Yeah, I don't think she gives a shit some loser is "exposing" her
 

Goat's Beard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
95
White men have lots of money. Shocker.jrpg.

Not the ones that teach in public education!

Anyway, I tend to look at art based on the quality of its characters and how well they work in the worlds that are built around them. Unless something is really offensive in some way, I tend to not factor in labels when deciding how much I like something. I think it's better that way!
 

TemplaerDude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,204
A tiny group of degenerates I'm sure would love to believe they can have any kind of sway in these things. It's hard to organize proper movements when you won't leave your moms basement, sadly.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,143
Seeing angry nerds co-opt "woke" is the most hilarious thing since soccer moms started using "bling".
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Seeing angry nerds co-opt "woke" is the most hilarious thing since soccer moms started using "bling".
To be honest, I've seen "woke" thrown around without care on Twitter and Tumblr so much that the word feels like it's lost meaning, and it's not just the angry nerds responsible for that.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,061
I think BFV's initial reveal was just poorly handled. I don't play these games but when I saw that first trailer I could tell it was a multiplayer reveal and they were showing what were supposed to be customized characters, but DICE didn't really tell anyone that. People ended up thinking that was the whole game or something.

The problem is that these days, in a mass-market multipalyer FPS, historical realism is essentially impossible because you have to have character customization and all kinds of cosmetic shit to sell in loot boxes and microtransactions. Even historically accurate tactics (or realistic tactics at all) were always impossible in mass-market multiplayer games. If you want real historical accuracy you'd have to have a game more similar to like, Arma Iron Front mod or some other PC games I've seen, and there's a reason those are niche. They're more hardcore and slower paced.

Mass-market games like COD and BF, when multiplayer goes into the equation, essentially become the digital equivalent of Axis & Allies toys. People need to recognize this.

Sledgehammer and DICE seem to have already known this and reserved the historical accuracy (which is at about the same level as Hollywood movies) for the singleplayer campaigns. I don't know why people got mad that they only allowed Swastikas in the campaigns and not in multiplayer. It's not hard to see why!
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,143
To be honest, I've seen "woke" thrown around without care on Twitter and Tumblr so much that the word feels like it's lost meaning, and it's not just the angry nerds responsible for that.
Considering the original meaning was "this fool needs to go back to sleep because they talking nonsense", it's ironic
 

Nateo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,547
On 5 February 2019, EA's CEO Andrew Wilson announced that the game ultimately failed to meet sales expectations, blaming the game's marketing as well as their focus on developing a single-player campaign instead of a battle royalemode, a genre which had gained recent widespread popularity. Wilson also highlighted Battlefield V's long development cycle, and release in a month of strong competition. EA's stock prices also faced its worst drop in more than a decade during its third quarter of the fiscal year, declining by around 18 percent, which EA attributed in part to the poor sales of the game.


dot dot dot
I love that Andrew Wilson thinks that Battlefield V had a long development. News flash, it needs to be much longer based on how it came out.
 
Feb 13, 2018
3,844
Japan
I've got a friend that always parrots this concept. It's a narrative born from theor perception of militant SJWs forcing/brainwashing companies to bend to their will, and a desire to prove that this is a Bad Thing that normal people are against.

The perceived fact that companies are losing money when they "go woke" is also proof to them that their boycotts have a strong effect. And people who are susceptible to that idea eat it up because it's a way to assuage their fear that even though what they like is (supposedly) under attack, they are not wrong to like or be comfortable with it and have a means to fight back and return things to the status quo. It's not always born from conscious discrimination but also from fear/a desire for "justice."

Nobody is more scared of losing what they love as nerds, and the way they judge popularity and quality of their hobby of choice are sales and reviews.
 

regenhuber

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,214
Being "woke" doesn't matter if you make a great product. Ghostbusters (2016), the poster child of "Get Woke, Go Broke" failed at the most important thing when making a film - making a good film. When your brilliant new idea for rebooting a cherished franchise is to gender swap your lead characters, you failed.

In the context of video games, [.......]

This.
Alt-Right people on the internet are like vultures or hyenas, they only go after injured targets.
If an entertainment product has a rough launch, bad reviews or sales, they will start their "SJW's are ruining....." stuff. They will also start to look for tweets by a POC or female dev/actor and go: "Wow, look at who's making games/movies nowadays".
ME Andromeda was the first game where I saw this scheme in action. BFV too maybe.
Pretty sure these people will STFU once TLOU2 releases, because it will probably be good.

To people who say "LOL these incels have no power at all", I'd say "I wouldn't be so sure...".
While I agree that these campaigns don't affect global multi billion companies like Disney, Nike or Gilette, that's mostly due to the fact that this "SJW, woke, broke" stuff is mainly an American thing.

But in smaller markets, dominated by men I guess these people can do damage:

This article explains what's happening pretty well. The Alt-Right wasn't responsible for people cancelling ESPN subs.
But they successfully spun the cancellation into "ESPN got too woke, that's why they broke".
 

Omegamon

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,884
No amount of positive representation can save genuinely bad writing or production. See also: The Dark Tower movie adaptation and the Josh Trank Fantastic Four movie.
What there any "representation" in Fantastic Four besides the bizarre decision of making Johnny black but not Sue?
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
What there any "representation" in Fantastic Four besides the bizarre decision of making Johnny black but not Sue?
People still noted that it was a positive.

And also, again, Fantastic Four was a terrible mess, so any good done in making Johnny black was basically undone by the entire rest of the damn movie.
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,440
People harping on BFV is especially dumb when COD WW2 broke records and was just as progressive with including women and minorities, both in the game and in their marketing and discussion of it. BFV was destined to be a lower seller than normal because BF1 and COD WW2 already took all the hype out of a 'return to WW2' game and it wasn't a big selling point anymore. Even before the reveal people weren't that hyped for it even though it ended up being a great game.

They just use BFV because it's the one title they can say had lower sales than expected to 'prove' their shitty world view. Meanwhile, games like Fortnite which have focused on inclusion and not just catering to straight white dudes are taking over the world.
 

DorkLord54

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,466
Michigan
This.
Alt-Right people on the internet are like vultures or hyenas, they only go after injured targets.
If an entertainment product has a rough launch, bad reviews or sales, they will start their "SJW's are ruining....." stuff. They will also start to look for tweets by a POC or female dev/actor and go: "Wow, look at who's making games/movies nowadays".
ME Andromeda was the first game where I saw this scheme in action. BFV too maybe.
Pretty sure these people will STFU once TLOU2 releases, because it will probably be good.

To people who say "LOL these incels have no power at all", I'd say "I wouldn't be so sure...".
While I agree that these campaigns don't affect global multi billion companies like Disney, Nike or Gilette, that's mostly due to the fact that this "SJW, woke, broke" stuff is mainly an American thing.

But in smaller markets, dominated by men I guess these people can do damage:

This article explains what's happening pretty well. The Alt-Right wasn't responsible for people cancelling ESPN subs.
But they successfully spun the cancellation into "ESPN got too woke, that's why they broke".
That's tremendously stupid on ESPN's part, since the reason most people will tell you they don't watch ESPN anymore is that they don't hold the license to anything except CFB anymore, and even then increasingly only the SEC is playing their games on ESPN.
 
Jan 11, 2019
601
I actually liked a lot of Razorfists content. Then he actually had to go and make a BFV hate video and use that phrase in the end. Deep and sorrowful was my sigh as I unsubscribed, knowing I'll prolly never get a recommendation as good as Solomon Kane again.