Ghostwire director Ikumi Nakamura has developed quite the fan art following [see staff posts]

Dennis8K

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,938
Asian woman: exists

Internet: adorable precious sparkle child I want to fold her up and put her in my pocket perfect waifu uwu
I think it has more to do with her being so fun and enthusiastic (and perhaps a woman) than with her being specifically Asian.

There are fewer high profile female developers on stage at E3 so when one of them hits a homerun people are positively inclined.
 

Manwell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
325
USA

PogChamp

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,063
Asian women in particular being infantilized and fetishized is a long-standing phenomenon though.
I would like to understand your perspective. I totally agree with what you're saying about the general phenomenon but I don't see how it applies to this situation in particular. None of the fanart strikes me as infantilizing or fetishistic.
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,188
Asian women in particular being infantilized and fetishized is a long-standing phenomenon though.
Of course, but the pushback in this instance is fucking ludicrous, she didn't go up and 'present her game' in the terms people are trying to play that off as, it wasn't like she came up and gave a speech and people went on about how cute she was, she went up and put on a fucking show, whether due to nerves or not, and it was memorable because it was cute. Like, the plot is completely lost when people get offended over the word cute being used APPROPRIATELY in a non sexual way.

Like, there's a difference between calling someone something when they're acting in an unrelated manner and your'e just shoehorning them into some stereotype, and another when they DO act exactly in that manner and everyone is super into it because it's so unexpected and jarring.
 

Osa15

Member
Nov 13, 2017
525
Asian women in particular being infantilized and fetishized is a long-standing phenomenon though.
Exactly, if she was a black woman I doubt there would be much fascination. This is the unfortunate reality we live in. I thought Aisha Tyler did a great job when she presented for Ubisoft and she definitely was outgoing and had some adorable moments.
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,188
Exactly, if she was a black woman I doubt there would be much fascination. This is the unfortunate reality we live in. I thought Aisha Tyler did a great job when she presented for Ubisoft and she definitely was outgoing and had some adorable moments.
Which were still nothing like literally acting like an anime character.
 

Mechanized

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,436
User Banned (1 Month): Dismissing Concerns Surrounding Racial Fetishization; Previous Severe Infraction for Dismissive Behavior; Modwhining
Official Staff Communication
Please keep this conversation civil and tasteful. Nakamura herself is fine with the fanarts and enjoys them. This does not give you license to belittle other members expressing their concerns about sexism or the fetishization of Asian women, whether in the industry or in general. Please avoid mocking or sarcastic drive-by posts to this effect.

Moving forwards, any users that continue this behaviour may be subject to moderation. Thank you.
So are you going to moderate people discussing Asian fetishization since it has nothing to do with the thread and is thusly off topic/derailing?
 

Dogenzaka

Member
Apr 20, 2019
139
Exactly, if she was a black woman I doubt there would be much fascination. This is the unfortunate reality we live in. I thought Aisha Tyler did a great job when she presented for Ubisoft and she definitely was outgoing and had some adorable moments.
A lot of people found Aisha Tyler cringy, like when she got weird with the one Assassin's Creed cosplayer and when she kept trying to make girl wood a thing. I'm not saying I agree, but that's just how most people perceived her.
 

BoxManLocke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,440
I would probably have chosen another thread title since this one is originally associated to Overwatch and NSFW fanart, but there really isn't anything wrong with people appreciating Nakamura's awesomeness.

If you're preemptively calling creepy you're the one that's making things awkward tbh.
 

LiQuid!

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,579
Of course, but the pushback in this instance is fucking ludicrous, she didn't go up and 'present her game' in the terms people are trying to play that off as, it wasn't like she came up and gave a speech and people went on about how cute she was, she went up and put on a fucking show, whether due to nerves or not, and it was memorable because it was cute. Like, the plot is completely lost when people get offended over the word cute being used APPROPRIATELY in a non sexual way.

Like, there's a difference between calling someone something when they're acting in an unrelated manner and your'e just shoehorning them into some stereotype, and another when they DO act exactly in that manner and everyone is super into it because it's so unexpected and jarring.
Absolutely this. The pushback against this has been far, far cringier than anything I've seen about her on Twitter. Polygon wrote a story about her. Most of the compliments, and the cries of "cute!" and fan arts are coming from females admiring her spirit. It's not even just a bunch of thirsty nerds.
 

Malgus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
756
Toronto
Ehh... I guess it's all in good fun. We just know how the internet is and how far they take things.

The creepy tweet I saw was from yesterday when one guy tweeted, "The girl we're all crushing over..." Can't find it right now but it was in the conference thread.

She's there to present a game and not there for people to ogle over.
 

J-Skee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,912
How many followers are she gained since the conference? She legit became an overnight celebrity.
 

Sianos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,298
real talk though her fashion game is on point
i wanna be that fashionable! and that talented and genuine of a presenter

Exactly, if she was a black woman I doubt there would be much fascination. This is the unfortunate reality we live in. I thought Aisha Tyler did a great job when she presented for Ubisoft and she definitely was outgoing and had some adorable moments.
this is a good point, i recall the general gaming public - not necessarily this community - being very negative towards her for similar presentations

i think it's fine for people on the Discussion Board to discuss the wider social context of industry happenings, especially if it relates to their personal experiences - sometimes innocuous interactions can highlight wider issues and just because one person doesn't mind something doesn't mean that no one minds it

most people appear to be respectful and just expressing genuine positivity, but there are also people online taking it way too far like they always do
 

Nuva

Member
Oct 28, 2017
190
Mr. Coffee's glorious comeback will soon be upon us.
I would rather a hundred Mr. Coffees than some boring guy in a suit saying "For you, the gamer, we made this game, a gamer's experience, a game that can't be missed out by gamers, by gamers, for the gamers, onto gaming game etc."

Anyhow, this thread is very cynical. She left an impression and if some idiot goes too far with it, then they should be called out on it. Really not that hard.
 

Thorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,427
I would rather a hundred Mr. Coffees than some boring guy in a suit saying "For you, the gamer, we made this game, a gamer's experience, a game that can't be missed out by gamers, by gamers, for the gamers, onto gaming game etc."

Anyhow, this thread is very cynical. She left an impression and if some idiot goes too far with it, then they should be called out on it. Really not that hard.
Yeah, this thread is...rough.
 

Asbsand

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,190
Denmark
It's not as if anyone with the same skin color has the same personality. Aisha is nice but she can be really annoying too with her "AMIRITE??" mannerisms. Ikumi here is just a twinkling star though, and if it had just been some asian walking in, putting her hands together and nodding all formal, i doubt we'd ever had this thread.
 

Thorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,427
It's not as if anyone with the same skin color has the same personality. Aisha is nice but she can be really annoying too with her "AMIRITE??" mannerisms. Ikumi here is just a twinkling star though, and if it had just been some asian walking in, putting her hands together and nodding all formal, i doubt we'd ever had this thread.
Seriously, Aisha had her moments but....

#GirlWood...
 

Sianos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,298
a few people online expressing their opinion on how something ties into a wider social issue is "pushback"

i think people are getting Offended because they think they are being personally called out by these forum post analysis, when if they aren't the ones crossing the line with creepy waifu talk or drawing explicit images they aren't the ones being referred to
 

mopinks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,070
I've had a crush on aisha tyler for twenty years but her ubisoft conference appearances were way too Gamer Humor for my taste

I forgive her, though
 

Riley

Member
Oct 25, 2017
424
NYC
I think there are valid concerns about infantilization and fetishization, but in this particular case a lot of people are just liking her mannerisms and enthusiasm. She stands out in a sea of other rando devs and presenters. To me it's similar to Keanu being all wholesome when he was on stage. Saying she's cute is not the same as not taking her or her work seriously. She's also fine with the non-creepy fanart.
 

Chariot

Member
Oct 26, 2017
109
Hamburg
a few people online expressing their opinion on how something ties into a wider social issue is "pushback"

i think people are getting Offended because they think they are being personally called out by these forum post analysis, when if they aren't the ones crossing the line with creepy waifu talk or drawing explicit images they aren't the ones being referred to
No, I think the fanart OP posted is mot creepy at all, but rather encouraging and she clearly loves it and the positive response to her.

It's not that I feel personally attacked, I express my opinion that she can decide for herself if she likes it or not.

As the thread has proven there is fanart for other cute or notable people of various gender and ethnicities and the cute fanart is not some racist attack.
 

aSqueakyLime

Member
Oct 27, 2017
986
England
User Banned (1 day) Ignoring Staff Post
people here: How dare you call her cute! it's objectifying and fetishising!

nakamura: These drawings are my treasures

people here: SHUT UP YOU DONT GET A SAY
 

Sianos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,298
Why are we bringing up Aisha? She's irrelevant to this thread
because someone on the Discussion Board drew a parallel between how two different women presenters were perceived and now people are discussing it

i know people online use a lot of hyperbolic language, but not every discussion of social issues is as high stakes as people are acting
 

Nuva

Member
Oct 28, 2017
190
a few people online expressing their opinion on how something ties into a wider social issue is "pushback"

i think people are getting Offended because they think they are being personally called out by these forum post analysis, when if they aren't the ones crossing the line with creepy waifu talk or drawing explicit images they aren't the ones being referred to
Let's ignore the post that calls for deprogramming. That's not gross at all. Its pushback. No seriously, why that post is not being called out more is amazing.
 

Sianos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,298
No, I think the fanart OP posted is mot creepy at all, but rather encouraging and she clearly loves it and the positive response to her.

It's not that I feel personally attacked, I express my opinion that she can decide for herself if she likes it or not.

As the thread has proven there is fanart for other cute or notable people of various gender and ethnicities and the cute fanart is not some racist attack.
someone on my twitter today had to make a post saying "stop drawing porn of ikumi nakamura" which sort of soured the fun of this for me

it isn't about this being a "racist attack", it's about the way in general asian women are fetishized and some people drawing parallels to their own experiences or the experiences of people they know

again, not every instance of social commentary is accusing people of being Capital R Intentionally Racist

Let's ignore the post that calls for deprogramming. That's not gross at all. Its pushback. No seriously, why that post is not being called out more is amazing.
you are also allowed to Make Posts Online - call it out! analyze what's wrong with it, contribute to the discussion

actually the fact that post was apparently sarcastic but you got outraged over it anyways makes this funnier
 

Tiggleton

Member
Apr 25, 2019
113
Some of you are acting as if Nakamura delivered the presentation in a monotone business style, then “gamers” depicted her as being cute purely based on her race.

This is outrageous.

You fight back against the infantilisation and fetishisation (did I spell that right?) of Asian women by being cognisant of it, pointing it out when it happens and treating Asian women with the respect all people deserve.
You don’t deny Asian women the right to present as “cute” and to be perceived as “cute” by a western audience.

Nakamura chose how to present herself, it wasn’t s foisted upon her by misconceptions westerners have of Asian women.

On that note:
Reggie, Satoru Iwata, Phil Spencer, Mark Cerny and recently; the man, the myth, the legend Keanu Reeves have been described as wholesome by the dreaded evil “gamers”.

Put the sun glasses down and see how the world really is. Instead of demonising anyone in the name of progression.
 

Dusk Golem

Local Horror Enthusiast
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
3,142
I think this is the sort of thing that can have a creepy side to it, but I don't think everyone making fan arts are specifically creepy. This is not on the same level, but I have a few very feverish fans of the small games I've made, I use my "Face" avatar you see here on Era everywhere, which is sorta' the "face" I use online and my own creation. And as a result, I've received several dozen pieces of art from fans with unique takes on my avatar character.

Now, it's a bit different maybe when it's a real person, but I've observed the same sorta' thing happening with big YouTubers, like PewDiePie and Markiplier. I think there's many who use it as a level of endearment towards a person, and not precisely in a creepy way. The problem comes when certain artists can blur the line and fetishize someone, which is worse when it's a real person public figure.

Being in a position, I think it's a bit up to how the person feels. I've received a few fan weird things involving some of the characters in my games even as a small creator, but I'm not personally offended by it or take it badly even if I also don't approve of it. Ikumi used to post a series of comics on the Tango Gameworks site (I was really excited for the original The Evil Within game, and followed it very closely), and my impression of her is she's got a good sense of humor and a fairly twisted side as she's a pretty big fan of horror and morbidity. Not to speak for her, but I think people who are a bit more intrigued by morbidity and twistedness are more open to stranger things overall. That said, that okayness also doesn't mean permission, and everyone has their individual lines that can be crossed where things begin to go from nice, to a bit weird but okay, to uncomfortable.

I'm really happy she has taken off well, and if things go well I can see her becoming an excellent face at Tango and for Japanese developers, which honestly would be great, she's talented and quite a visionary as shown already through her works on Okami, Bayonetta, and the two Evil Within games (and her concept art pieces if you look into it are fantastic, she's got a great eye for unique stylish designs and expressive composure). But unfortunately there is a truth of potential fetishization due to there being so few prominent female directors to begin with, let alone people who are female and Asian. We need more people like Ikumi, but there's going to be an uphill battle here, and I think it's important to talk about this. I do think Ikumi is a strong enough person that she can take a few people being fucked up, but I also think as with any creative face it's also important to both treat them as human and respect their boundaries. The fan art is not a boundary for her as she's demonstrated, but I'm pretty sure most people don't want to be dehumanized by fetishization. But, fan art =/= fetishization either. So I think this is okay as long as she's okay with it, and it can be endearing to receive art from people who mean well and just were inspired by you or something you did.

These are just my thoughts, but wanted to express it. I hope I managed to say everything since I have this gut feeling I'm missing something I should include with this. But my main thoughts right now is I'm very happy she got to direct her own project and even new IP idea, and I'm really looking forward to seeing gameplay from it. The CG Trailer more than any other CG trailer I've seen at this E3 interested me with its motifs, art direction, and stylizing.