GI: [Anno 1800 leaving Steam] might not bode well for the...strength of Steam's marketplace, it most likely is good for everyone else (See Staff Post)

[Deleted member 33597]

I've seen zero objective analysis from all these publications, and zero input from actual customers, most of them are just regurgitating what Tim Sweeney says.

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Hmm, it's almost like someone is giving all of them money to write puff pieces and avoid criticism or indeed, anything resembling an analytical, comprehensive look at the pros and the cons of the situation. Gee, what a funny coincidence. I wonder how that happened!

 

[Elven_Star]

My games, friends, and achievements are on Steam. That's where I will stay. It's quite simple.
If people don't buy games on Epic Store, developers cut wouldn't mean anything anyway. They will come around. I'm pretty sure Metro Exodus developers would have had more money in their pocket right now if they had launched the game on Steam f.e.

 

[BBboy20]

Cheers all. Guess you don't get the full story from the press!

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You know what, we *heard* this deafening silence before with the Xbox DRM fiasco. WE had to be the voice of reason and change.

 

[Demacabre]

My games, friends, and achievements are on Steam. That's where I will stay. It's quite simple.
If people don't buy games on Epic Store, developers cut wouldn't mean anything anyway. They will come around. I'm pretty sure Metro Exodus developers would have had more money in their pocket right now if they had launched the game on Steam f.e.

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You do realize the devs didn't get shit from the deal? Their Publisher made the deal with Epic. Their Publisher gets the money. Their Publisher may trickle it down.

 

[bluexy]

Thank goodness I have several people replying to everything I post assuming the only "developers" worth acknowledging with regards to any conversation about Epic are publishers like Activision and Ubisoft. Y'all are being so disingenuous. If you think these publishers are going to exploit the higher revenue share from Epic and not put it back into game development, why do you think that's any different than Steam? Why are you supporting those publishers in the first place then? And if you aren't, why do you care about which platforms they release on?

I'm talking specifically about studios and publishers where the money really matters. The names I do trust. Yes, I 100% believe that Supergiant Games is going to come out of its deal better off than if it launched Hades on Steam. Yes, I think Night School Studio is going to put the money made from Oxenfree being a free game straight into the development of After Party or their next game. Yes, I believe Annapurna is going to take the money it makes from its Epic deal and put it back into publishing more indie games, or providing even bigger contracts.

Look beyond Ubisoft and see Devolver Digital, Focus Home Interactive, Unknown Worlds, Team 17, and all the other game companies that are legit trying to make ends meet and maybe doing that on Epic where they wouldn't on Steam. Look at fucking Thomas Happ Games trying to get the money he fucking deserves for his son and that he may not get on Steam.

Y'all don't even realize how much an 88-12 revenue share matters compared to Steam's 70-30 to these companies.

 

[spineduke]

You know what, we *heard* this deafening silence before with the Xbox DRM fiasco. WE had to be the voice of reason and change.

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Great point, not the first time there was a large dissonance between gaming media and the actual consumers. The publication backlash took an exceptionally long time to come around.

 

[Deleted member 15476]

I for one subscribe to the theory of trickle down economics and big publishers:

 

[Timewarp]

Is Epic also buying journalists to spread this shit everyday?

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This may be taking it too far, but I am seeing a lot of streamers supporting the EGS money-hatting as "competition". Given the Stores Creator program (i.e. referral program), I can see how certain people are incentivized to defend/promote the store.

 

[dex3108]

Thank goodness I have several people replying to everything I post assuming the only "developers" worth acknowledging with regards to any conversation about Epic are publishers like Activision and Ubisoft. Y'all are being so disingenuous. If you think these publishers are going to exploit the higher revenue share from Epic and not put it back into game development, why do you think that's any different than Steam? Why are you supporting those publishers in the first place then? And if you aren't, why do you care about which platforms they release on?

I'm talking specifically about studios and publishers where the money really matters. The names I do trust. Yes, I 100% believe that Supergiant Games is going to come out of its deal better off than if it launched Hades on Steam. Yes, I think Night School Studio is going to put the money made from Oxenfree being a free game straight into the development of After Party or their next game. Yes, I believe Annapurna is going to take the money it makes from its Epic deal and put it back into publishing more indie games, or providing even bigger contracts.

Look beyond Ubisoft and see Devolver Digital, Focus Home Interactive, Unknown Worlds, Team 17, and all the other game companies that are legit trying to make ends meet and maybe doing that on Epic where they wouldn't on Steam. Look at fucking Thomas Happ Games trying to get the money he fucking deserves for his son and that he may not get on Steam.

Y'all don't even realize how much an 88-12 revenue share matters compared to Steam's 70-30 to these companies.

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I am still waiting for you to explain me how Valve can offer 12% cut after i explained you how some things cost them.

 

[Madjoki]

I can see EGS acquiring more and more and more AAA title exclusives until I (and the rest of the gaming community) can't resist anymore; the biggest red flag at this point is the fact they spy on your computer. Is there anyway to turn this feature off or opt out?

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Nope. They removed (rather - said they will remove) steam spying after being called out, but rest of features like hardware/software analysis will stay (and has been and will be part of every Unreal Engine 4 game too).

 

[Finaika]

I for one subscribe to the theory of trickle down economics and big publishers:

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How much is Lord Gaben worth?

 

[Chairmanchuck (另一个我)]

How much is Lord Gaben worth?

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3.9 billion.

 

[JayC3]

Some outlets are publishing content sponsored by Epic Games and of course they will defend Epic Games practices.
https://www.pcgamesn.com/fortnite/fortnite-netcode-guide

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These are general guidelines that aim to discourage unfounded or hyperbolic accusations. If an article is clearly stated as being sponsored, it is of course fine to discuss or criticize that. In this case, the article in question is not sponsored. Criticizing it on its own merits is, of course, fine. If you have any further questions, it would be best to reach out to the Mod Captains.

 

[GhostTrick]

Thank goodness I have several people replying to everything I post assuming the only "developers" worth acknowledging with regards to any conversation about Epic are publishers like Activision and Ubisoft. Y'all are being so disingenuous. If you think these publishers are going to exploit the higher revenue share from Epic and not put it back into game development, why do you think that's any different than Steam? Why are you supporting those publishers in the first place then? And if you aren't, why do you care about which platforms they release on?

I'm talking specifically about studios and publishers where the money really matters. The names I do trust. Yes, I 100% believe that Supergiant Games is going to come out of its deal better off than if it launched Hades on Steam. Yes, I think Night School Studio is going to put the money made from Oxenfree being a free game straight into the development of After Party or their next game. Yes, I believe Annapurna is going to take the money it makes from its Epic deal and put it back into publishing more indie games, or providing even bigger contracts.

Look beyond Ubisoft and see Devolver Digital, Focus Home Interactive, Unknown Worlds, Team 17, and all the other game companies that are legit trying to make ends meet and maybe doing that on Epic where they wouldn't on Steam. Look at fucking Thomas Happ Games trying to get the money he fucking deserves for his son and that he may not get on Steam.

Y'all don't even realize how much an 88-12 revenue share matters compared to Steam's 70-30 to these companies.

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I do. I can see that this lower cut means no discount on 3rd party authorized stores. What it means is instead of giving money to more devs, I'll just buy less games.

 

[Chairmanchuck (另一个我)]

These are general guidelines that aim to discourage unfounded or hyperbolic accusations. If an article is clearly stated as being sponsored, it is of course fine to discuss or criticize that. In this case, the article in question is not sponsored. Criticizing it on its own merits is, of course, fine. If you have any further questions, it would be best to reach out to the Mod Captains.

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The thing is if an outlet already had sponsored content before (not GI, mind you) it isnt that far too think that, to not lose that in the future, their articles will still be more pro company who offered you a deal so you can get them again.

I also wrote why his "opinion" is factually wrong, because Steam is more than just a friendlist. Also every journalist lies about how its good for the customer when they ignore the 3rd biggest Steam Market China. Sorry, but all those "journalists" do not know shit about what they are writing about.

 

[bluexy]

I am still waiting for you to explain me how Valve can offer 12% cut after i explained you how some things cost them.

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You're 100% right that it's a complicated mess right now and a lot of customers are getting screwed. I'm not arguing against that. I'm not saying that the Epic Games Store isn't pretty garbage right now from a usability/feature-set perspective. Or that the situation is worse for consumers in many ways like with certain payment types or regional pricing. I really don't know if Valve, even if it wanted to, could get its revenue share down to 88-12. Or what it'd mean if it did. I'm not pretending to be all-seeing here, like a lot of anti-Epic folk are.

I just see the 88-12 for the good it's doing for developers. And I believe that good outweighs the frustrations customers have to deal with as a result both in the short term and the long term. No one wants to see Valve have to lay off people or push more costs onto consumers to meet that level of competition, but if it means Valve alone has to deal with that where how many thousands of developers will benefit? Yeah, coldly stated, I guess I'd probably be okay with that.

 

[Anoxida]

Thank goodness I have several people replying to everything I post assuming the only "developers" worth acknowledging with regards to any conversation about Epic are publishers like Activision and Ubisoft. Y'all are being so disingenuous. If you think these publishers are going to exploit the higher revenue share from Epic and not put it back into game development, why do you think that's any different than Steam? Why are you supporting those publishers in the first place then? And if you aren't, why do you care about which platforms they release on?

I'm talking specifically about studios and publishers where the money really matters. The names I do trust. Yes, I 100% believe that Supergiant Games is going to come out of its deal better off than if it launched Hades on Steam. Yes, I think Night School Studio is going to put the money made from Oxenfree being a free game straight into the development of After Party or their next game. Yes, I believe Annapurna is going to take the money it makes from its Epic deal and put it back into publishing more indie games, or providing even bigger contracts.

Look beyond Ubisoft and see Devolver Digital, Focus Home Interactive, Unknown Worlds, Team 17, and all the other game companies that are legit trying to make ends meet and maybe doing that on Epic where they wouldn't on Steam. Look at fucking Thomas Happ Games trying to get the money he fucking deserves for his son and that he may not get on Steam.

Y'all don't even realize how much an 88-12 revenue share matters compared to Steam's 70-30 to these companies.

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I agree with most of this. I dont think 88-12 is sustainable but 70-30 is a terrible number that I think has to.change from valves side. There's a middle ground here that would work for everyone and I pray that epics aggression will lead to that number but who knows what will come from all of this in the end.

 

[Rosenkrantz]

Revenue cut isn't the driving force behind the deals tho. Valve can offer 95/5 and pubs still will chose EGS exclusivity deal because of the financial incentives, these deals are about short term gains, nothing more.

 

[Rodjer]

. No one wants to see Valve have to lay off people or push more costs onto consumers to meet that level of competition, but if it means Valve alone has to deal with that where how many thousands of developers will benefit? Yeah, coldly stated, I guess I'd probably be okay with that.

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Valve is more consumer-oriented than Epic Games, they will never push more costs to their users to offer a better cut for developers.

 

[spineduke]

I just see the 88-12 for the good it's doing for developers. And I believe that good outweighs the frustrations customers have to deal with as a result both in the short term and the long term.

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Everyone will agree that its better for developers - thats undeniable fact - I just don't believe in this fallacy of trickle down.

 

[Aeferis]

Honestly they're free to write whatever they please and I'm free to buy whatever I please. Kinda lame that this is affecting all those sites and magazines that depicted themselves as "better than your regular gaming media". We need real journalists in an industry this big and we have none or very, very few.

 

[dex3108]

You're 100% right that it's a complicated mess right now and a lot of customers are getting screwed. I'm not arguing against that. I'm not saying that the Epic Games Store isn't pretty garbage right now from a usability/feature-set perspective. Or that the situation is worse for consumers in many ways like with certain payment types or regional pricing. I really don't know if Valve, even if it wanted to, could get its revenue share down to 88-12. Or what it'd mean if it did. I'm not pretending to be all-seeing here, like a lot of anti-Epic folk are.

I just see the 88-12 for the good it's doing for developers. And I believe that good outweighs the frustrations customers have to deal with as a result both in the short term and the long term. No one wants to see Valve have to lay off people or push more costs onto consumers to meet that level of competition, but if it means Valve alone has to deal with that where how many thousands of developers will benefit? Yeah, coldly stated, I guess I'd probably be okay with that.

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As i said if Epic wants to operate Store on the same level as Steam those 12% is not possible. Epic is currently operating their store based on US market and not global market. That's why for example in Finland if you want to use PaySafe payment method you are greeted with 6% payment fee at checkout. Based on Valve data 90% of all purchases (in Asia at least) are not coming from standard payment methods. One of the most popular payment methods in Japan for example are Wallet Cards. Those wallet cards cost Valve 10-15% of their price. All of those costs are absorbed by Valve, they don't transfer any of those costs to developers or customers. Epic is not doing that. That is why Epic supports only few payment methods and Valve supports over 100 payment methods around the world.

 

[Symphony]

I agree with most of this. I dont think 88-12 is sustainable but 70-30 is a terrible number that I think has to.change from valves side.

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You've never worked in retail I assume, revenue splits climb as high as 50-50 there depending on the product, 70-30 is slightly below average while 88-12 is bad enough that the retailer wouldn't even want to waste the time stocking it unless they absolutely had to. A digital storefront is obviously not the same since it lacks the cost value of limited shelf space, but to try and pretend a 30% cut for a retailer is completely unreasonable is just foolish.

 

[neuq]

I dunno gameinforner...

I think both Steam and Tropico 6 are doing fine.

https://store.steampowered.com/search/?category1=998&os=win&filter=globaltopsellers
Tropico 6 is also among the top 10 in Global too it seems

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you know, this ad cost big money for Tropico 6 publisher

 

[Acidote]

The thing is if an outlet already had sponsored content before (not GI, mind you) it isnt that far too think that, to not lose that in the future, their articles will still be more pro company who offered you a deal so you can get them again.

I also wrote why his "opinion" is factually wrong, because Steam is more than just a friendlist. Also every journalist lies about how its good for the customer when they ignore the 3rd biggest Steam Market China. Sorry, but all those "journalists" do not know shit about what they are writing about.

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Pretty much this. They get a sponsorized article and in a different article they bash them. They know they won't get a second sponsorized one. The majority of these articles are ignoring (hopefully out of ignorance) a lot of what Steam is doing, be it good or bad, while the legitimate consumer reaction is being pretty much completely ignored.

It seems that someone is trying REALLY hard to change the discourse around EGS while having the EGS still doing what they're doing. Instead of changing whatever it is that is getting people legitimately angry as not everyone is simply a Steam or EGS fanboy.

I understand where the guidelines come from, but enforcing them will hurt the discourse.

you know, this ad cost big money for Tropico 6 publisher

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Unless they've changed it, Steam does not charge for that banner and it's them who choose it.

 

[Chairmanchuck (另一个我)]

you know, this ad cost big money for Tropico 6 publisher

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The banners arent paid for by the pub.

 

[Rodjer]

you know, this ad cost big money for Tropico 6 publisher

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Uhm...Steam don't charge for ads lol

 

[Igniz12]

you know, this ad cost big money for Tropico 6 publisher

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Pretty sure Steam store banners are not paid adverts, they pull from the best selling games on the store. Might be wrong on that.

 

[Anoxida]

You've never worked in retail I assume, revenue splits climb as high as 50-50 there depending on the product, 70-30 is average while 88-12 is bad enough that the retailer wouldn't even want to waste the time stocking it unless they absolutely had to. A digital storefront is obviously not the same since it lacks the cost value of shelf space, but to try and pretend a 30% cut for a retailer is completely unreasonable is just foolish.

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Yeah like you said yourself digital and retail are two different things. Apart from streaming, music and home cinema is doing fucking terrible but yeah lets copy theirs and apples % that they used 10 years ago when it worked and just keep it that way because record companies small game devs and independant movie studios are all fucking doing awsome right now.

 

[Ada]

What pisses me off the most about this whole situation is that Epic is loss leading on this purely because they have the might of Fortnite propping them up. If FN shutdown tomorrow I'd bet that this bs would stop immediately.

That Tim Sweeney tweet earlier on in the thread was him gloating that Valve should do the same and outbid them on exclusives. Effectively throwing money down the drain.

 

[sirap]

The thing is if an outlet already had sponsored content before (not GI, mind you) it isnt that far too think that, to not lose that in the future, their articles will still be more pro company who offered you a deal so you can get them again.

I also wrote why his "opinion" is factually wrong, because Steam is more than just a friendlist.

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This. Also, let's not forget what happened to Gerstmann at Gamespot. The influence of sponsorship is far reaching.

It's funny though, I've listening to their podcast for ages and it's not like the team aren't aware of EGS's bullshit practices. They're on ERA, they have to know. I get it though, maintaining good relationships with pubs is important to GI. But please, enough with the patronizing. Framing it as "good for everyone else" is straight up insulting.

 

[Chairmanchuck (另一个我)]

Yeah like you said yourself digital and retail are two different things. Apart from streaming, music and home cinema is doing fucking terrible but yeah lets copy theirs and apples % that they used 10 years ago when it worked and just keep it that way because record companies small game devs and independant movie studios are all fucking doing awsome right now.

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Sweeney himself said that the 12% is not enough when using outside payment processors. That is why customers in Finland have to pay the payment processment fee, not Epic.
Also besides that 12% is not enough if you would want to sell games in other markets. 12% isnt enough if you want to sell your game in China because you need to pay taxes for every payment done there. You cant just say "But I do my taxes in Ireland!".

And maybe the reason why small game devs are not doing good right now is not because of a 30% cut, but because the market is oversaturated. You can not have 1000 Metroidvanias with varying quality. Or develop a new puzzle plattformer.

 

[eonden]

you know, this ad cost big money for Tropico 6 publisher

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Mind you, I do think they have previous knowledge of what games will get banners, as they all feature custom art (at least due to the resolution) and they are quite fast on putting them for sales or new game announcements (such as Vampire the Masquerade).

 

[Anoxida]

Sweeney himself said that the 12% is not enough when using outside payment processors. That is why customers in Finland have to pay the payment processment fee, not Epic.

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Look at my posts and you'll see me clearly stating 12% is not sustainable. Doesn't mean I think that 33%, a number that was made up by a company who by all means pretty much had monopoly of the digital music market 12 years ago is still the right number today. Digital storefronts are doing great, record companies, indie game devs and film studios are not. There's a fucking correlation here.

 

[Kyougar]

These are general guidelines that aim to discourage unfounded or hyperbolic accusations. If an article is clearly stated as being sponsored, it is of course fine to discuss or criticize that. In this case, the article in question is not sponsored. Criticizing it on its own merits is, of course, fine. If you have any further questions, it would be best to reach out to the Mod Captains.

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How can this be taken without context?
Just because a specific article isn't sponsored, doesn't mean that the whole site isn't compromised. They get money as a publication from a corporation and they heavily do positive articles about this corporation and attack the competition of this corporation. It doesn't matter which of those articles are sponsored.

 

[Chairmanchuck (另一个我)]

Look at my posts and you'll see me clearly stating 12% is not sustainable. Doesn't mean I think that 33%, a number that was made up by a company who by all means pretty much had monopoly of the digital music market 12 years ago is still the right number today. Digital storefronts are doing great, record companies, indie game devs and film studios are not. There's a fucking correlation here.

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I agree that it should be lowered. I think it should be 20/80 like big pubs now have on Steam if they make more than 5 million revenue.

The thing is why some Indie Game devs are not doing well is, well.... The market is oversaturated. Everyone wants to be a dev.

 

[neuq]

Mind you, I do think they have previous knowledge of what games will get banners, as they all feature custom art (at least due to the resolution) and they are quite fast on putting them for sales or new game announcements (such as Vampire the Masquerade).

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pretty sure i read it somewhere, welp. why it's working so limited?

 

[NaDannMaGoGo]

Mmh love me some overtly incestuous pub/dev & gaming outlet relationships. Please don't mind the gnarling conflict of interest mountain in the background. Surely that has no effect on the hilariously one-sided coverage by our highly regarded game journalists.

I mean, what can you say. It's just another poorly researched and argued article. Somehow, those are the norm concerning Epic and their store.

 

[Chairmanchuck (另一个我)]

pretty sure i read it somewhere, welp. why it's working so limited?

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Limited?

This month we got like over 10 banners. DMC5 had one. Sekiro had one. PUBG had one. Ubisoft Sale had one. Vampire 2 had one. Right now Tropico 6. RE2 had one. They really ramped it up lately.

 

[Jiffy Smooth]

I just see the 88-12 for the good it's doing for developers. And I believe that good outweighs the frustrations customers have to deal with as a result both in the short term and the long term. No one wants to see Valve have to lay off people or push more costs onto consumers to meet that level of competition, but if it means Valve alone has to deal with that where how many thousands of developers will benefit? Yeah, coldly stated, I guess I'd probably be okay with that.

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Does it outweigh the ramifications when, assuming an 88-12 cut or similar becomes the accepted rate, stores like GOG and third-party sellers are squeezed out of business?

 

[eonden]

pretty sure i read it somewhere, welp. why it's working so limited?

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Limited?

This month we got like over 10 banners. DMC5 had one. Sekiro had one. PUBG had one. Ubisoft Sale had one. Vampire 2 had one. Right now Tropico 6. RE2 had one. They really ramped it up lately.

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Banners are imho more of a focus on the new Steam UI (with more events focus) so they have been ramping up as the backbone for the mechanics for it as finalized.

 

[Durante]

I guess "everyone else" does not include any consumers, any alternate stores or other platforms like GoG, and any indie developers who don't get randomly picked for a moneyhat.

It certainly includes the "press", who Valve clearly don't pay as well as Epic does.

I've seen zero objective analysis from all these publications, and zero input from actual customers, most of them are just regurgitating what Tim Sweeney says.

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Of course.

 

[Shelbyville Milhouse]

It's so good for me to have less options, too many options are way too confusing.

 

[FF Seraphim]

It seems gaming journalist, at least the majority of them, want EGS to be successful but they are unable to make a convincing argument on why it would be good for PC gamers.
The fact they brush off proper concerns because "reasons" boggles my mind. There was a Kotaku article that lambasted people for being angry over the Metro incident but all it could talk about was competition.

 

[Jiffy Smooth]

I'd love to see a dedicated PC site talk to stores like GOG, GMG, etc, who are all getting shut out of the conversation. Get their insights on whether this huge part of PC game retail can survive Epic's tactics. Instead, we get this pathetic level of discourse. "It's good, because... money... for... Epic? And Valve did that thing where they saved PC gaming but then everyone forgot and that's their fault now."

 

[Tomasdk]

But what about securing customers? You know, the actual people who make or break your storefront. So far everything I've seen from the "press" and Epic is devs are king, fuck customers.

 

[svacina]

But what about securing customers? You know, the actual people who make or break your storefront. So far everything I've seen from the "press" and Epic is devs are king, fuck customers.

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You secure customers by not giving them a choice. Competition..?

 

[Knurek]

I agree with most of this. I dont think 88-12 is sustainable but 70-30 is a terrible number that I think has to.change from valves side. There's a middle ground here that would work for everyone and I pray that epics aggression will lead to that number but who knows what will come from all of this in the end.

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That's the thing, Valve doesn't have a 70-30 split. That's just another falsehood spread by Epic PR.
Console and mobile storefronts have that split. Other PC storefronts (GOG, GMG, etc) most probably have that split. Valve has a moving number, starting from 70-30, and going down 80-20 for successful titles (which is a recent thing) and even down to 100-0 for devs/pubs selling games on their own (which isn't recent and has always been the case).
How is 88-12 better than 100-0, tell me?
Let's not forget the 88-12 split is only temporary, in few months it will be 82-12-6, with 6 percent going to Twitch/Youtube streamers (for some reason).

 

[Solaris]

I've yet to see a single reasonable argument from any publications or the usual suspects on ERA that shit up Epic threads about why anything Epic is doing in regards to buying exclusives is good for consumers

 

[Zeroneo]

Why do none of those journalists also mention that non-Steam stores are also affected? Do they expect every store to start an exclusive-buying contest? Because I don't think they can compete with Epic or Valve on that front...