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GI.biz: "Games success not enough to overcome slumping arcade and smartphone performance for SEGA"
- Thread starter Deleted member 8196
- Start date
Their "niche" PC games include annual million sellers like Football Manager, and a growing fanbase of strategy and simulation gamers who enjoy the works of Creative Assembly, Amplitude, etc.
This is a market SEGA are focusing on expanding, and judging by the responses so far to Two Point Hospital looks like it's going to be pretty successful for them if it turns out to be good.
Can't believe the people in here who want fucking Microsoft of all companies to buy them out.
OP
OP
I don't think TOTAL WAR and FOOTBALL MANAGER are niche on PC at all, they might be niche for the console audience, but not for PC.
Total War Warhammer sold 1.8 million copies
Total War Warhammer 2 did 700.000 copies in 4 months
Football Manager is a 1 million + seller every year.
Not even Yakuza/Sonic and Persona titles (excluding P5) are making those numbers in the west.
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I don't think there exsts one successfull Sega game on the original Xbox...
Also, Sega made a bunch of 360 games too. But because it's not classic Japanese in-house Sega, it doesn't count.
Actually it is the opposite. The upward arcade trend (not pachinko as the thread title implies), and upward of packaging games make it more likely. Ask in 2014 where mobile and PSO2 was the only significant success for Sega.
Well, SegaSammy's medium term gamble is Resorts (eg Paradise City Korea, competition for the Japanese casino licenses and gaming machine arrangements like the one with Nevada), so management efforts haven't really been on the gaming area as much.
Their mobile venture has been OK, particularly with f4samurai's mobile RPGs, but they've missed the window for sports (like their Pro Soccer series) and rhythm (maimai, Miku etc) as well as establishing new IP in a now crowded market especially with foreign games from all over the world being localised to Japanese. Existing IP, well, they're sitting on a lot of that, yeah.
I believe that on the gaming side they're happy to stay within their established niche. They see growth in console and PC but mostly act independently of each other anyway, compounded by missing localisation and not particularly successful third party efforts e.g. Halo Wars 2, Madoka Magika Magia Record for Aniplex.
Management has always been an Achilles heel, even with their success in Sega Europe (Jurgen Post left for Tencent which is the top gaming publisher, whilst his replacement Chris Bergstresser lasted all of four months. Wonder if he got a better offer somewhere else or lacked the capability to run the division on his own terms)
The silver lining is that they'll be developing the Fate Grand/Order arcade game for Aniplex, Type Moon and partners, which should bring them lots of cash considering it's one of the hottest and biggest franchises in mobile gaming
Their mobile venture has been OK, particularly with f4samurai's mobile RPGs, but they've missed the window for sports (like their Pro Soccer series) and rhythm (maimai, Miku etc) as well as establishing new IP in a now crowded market especially with foreign games from all over the world being localised to Japanese. Existing IP, well, they're sitting on a lot of that, yeah.
I believe that on the gaming side they're happy to stay within their established niche. They see growth in console and PC but mostly act independently of each other anyway, compounded by missing localisation and not particularly successful third party efforts e.g. Halo Wars 2, Madoka Magika Magia Record for Aniplex.
Management has always been an Achilles heel, even with their success in Sega Europe (Jurgen Post left for Tencent which is the top gaming publisher, whilst his replacement Chris Bergstresser lasted all of four months. Wonder if he got a better offer somewhere else or lacked the capability to run the division on his own terms)
The silver lining is that they'll be developing the Fate Grand/Order arcade game for Aniplex, Type Moon and partners, which should bring them lots of cash considering it's one of the hottest and biggest franchises in mobile gaming
But there's not going to be any sudden growth in them markets is there ? There's a set audience that buys them games and that audience will never see a dramatic increase, how are Sega meant to grow as a publisher when there's no new audience coming in for their games ?
They have tried everything on mobile, every (old) IP and every genre and new IP too. Chain Chronicle, Puyo and Hortensia Saga are the only one that stuck. As for resorts - I don't think it coincides much with their gaming stuff. Its much like their gambling efforts.
Their next four upcoming games mentioned in the report are looking pretty nice (all have blue skies)
What's the last one?
Sticking more of their Japanese titles on PC would be an easy path to growth there. But they're frustratingly slow to port them across.
Still, being the big publisher in the PC strategy space will bring in the money every year.
I used to think that Sega would quickly turn around their success in the arcade (touch) card game series into the standard card - rarity - game mobile gacha. e.g Sangokushi Taisen or World Club Championship Football, Don't think they've made much effort or legway into leveraging these franchises onto mobile.
Even their card games like Mushiking or Oshare Majo could have done well as the kids of that time have now grown up and can now pay for the gacha.
As for resorts Sammy's gambling efforts have supported the gaming divisions in lean times particularly when Sega wasn't making money. Sammy has effective control on operations and they're putting their money into resorts and gambling as opposed to gaming which would affect budgets.
I would want SEGA games on more platforms not less.
Also as Nightengale said this isn't the thread to talk about buyouts.
That would just be Sony.
Hell no. I hope that NEVER happens. This isn't 1999. The biggest AAA titles for Sega are exclusive to PlayStation which include- Persona, Yakuza, and Hatsune Miku.
All of these games were on moble at some point. Or variants of. But those arcade games have a whole different appeal altogether that is not replicated on mobile.
Total Warhammer actually was an uptick for the series, but you're right in that these things aren't going to suddenly gain 1+ million copies, which at Sega's scale, is what they'd actually need.
Mobile was a big boon for them as they were making $400+ million a year, but when all the other major publishers came in, they started facing the same problems they face in the console space in terms of them not being competitive game developers.
My apologies then, but other than a white knight saving Sega, can't see how arcades and PC could generate more sales. How's there mobile division doing though?? At this stage Sega might just making more Gacha games.
I don't think you guys actually understand how that relationship turned out. The relations essentially soured b/c Microsoft did not want Dreamcast backwards-compatibility for the OG Xbox, and the Windows CE implementation in Dreamcast was pretty much underused and didn't service the games that implemented it well aside from the PC ports.
Also fwiw some of their Xbox exclusives at the time, like Shenmue II's Western port, would've made a lot more sense on PlayStation 2.
Very sensible post. A lot of fans and just people in general have been saying this for a while. They seem to be stuck in a mentality that all of these old IP need a AAA budget to justify them, when if anything that would just hurt them and also dilute them of a lot of their charm. I would think that certain arcade efforts like the new Daytona and House of the Dead show that they can do this with those IP on a lower budget, the problem is those games don't seem to expand outside of the arcades and when they do they're incredibly LTTP on home platforms.
I just hope this news convinces them to at least consider home/PC ports of some of their arcade games more regularly, and maybe finally start tapping into the nostalgia for some of their older IP (that isn't Sonic) with some new compilations and modestly-budgeted, smart revivals.
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Their console to PC porting line is solid but I think it's time for Yakuza and Atlus to finally make the jump. More arcade and retro games too.
Because most of the value Sega can provide is useless to Sony or Nintendo.
On consoles Sega practically has only sonic which itself is quite damaged brand wise and it's not like Nintendo or Sony have any trouble creating ips that sell well in Japan and mainland Europe.
For ms it's a whole new game. They gain some ips with penetration on those markets, they get a infinitely more recognizable brand than Xbox in Japan, alongside years of great relationship with creators. Not to mention Sega Europe that has some valuable Pc properties that would also fit well for ms and Sony or Nintendo would have no use for.
Get out of here with that shit. I don't want Sega's games locked down to Nintendo, Microsoft, or Sony.
As for the topic it's no wonder their mobile games have performed poorly. When I think Sega mobile I think of crusty old Genesis games that play like crap on a touch screen.
Sega having valuable PC properties is precisely why I want Microsoft nowhere near them.
Well you should think Chain Chronicle, but that is a no show for the West. Shows you one thing about Sega...
They haven't been performing well because they oversatured the JP market.
Lol, it's 2018. Sega has done more with Sony and Nintendo for years now.
Like I said in the other topic, it would be the best publisher they could acquire for their future intentions and to help spread their appeal to territories beyond the US and UK.
Also, I knew that SEGA was not doing too hot even with Persona 5 and one or two other recent successes despite being told otherwise in our last conversation. They have been sluggish since the restructure and aren't achieving a collective amount of software sales to make a significant improvement for their status in the industry.
The unique thing about SEGA is that they have a plethora of beloved IPs but they seem to be ill-fitted in knowing how to do anything meaningful with them.
When you put it that way, it does start to make more sense. It'd add some much-needed diversity to Microsoft's library; the problem is we already see what MS does w/ studios they buy, just look at Rare. They're only just now getting back to doing something that's seriously catching attention and that's been after over a decade of Viva Pinata, Nuts 'n Bolts, PD Zero etc (the Viva games are good tho and while I haven't played it, there's at least something of a fanbase for Nuts 'n Bolts).
The ONLY way a Sega/Microsoft relationship would work is if MS allowed Sega's studios their creative freedom, financially funded them reasonably and ended some of their ridiculous deadlines for the Sonic games. They would also need to get out of the mentality that every 1st/2nd-party game needs to do COD numbers, that has simply never been and never will be the case. The point of 1st party titles is to add variety and value to the platform's library, draw as many diverse eyes to it as possible, and have a nice and balanced ecosystem that is overall healthy and modestly profitable, as well as to build audiences for third parties to recognize and tailor their support to.
All that said....I actually don't think MS or anyone else needs to step in atm. Sega has the studios, and the talent (yes, even Sonic Team; I think that studio's problem are the deadlines and mismanagement of certain people in certain positions they don't deserve to be in simply out of seniority), they just need to coordinate their organization of those things better. Give Sonic Team a break from Sonic and let Whitehead's studio take the reigns for a while, and give Sonic Team their creative freedom back. Let them take as much time as they need on their games instead of rushing for a holiday deadline.
Get AM2 and AM3's arcade games out to home console storefronts and PC storefronts more regularly, and relatively in time w/ the arcade releases (especially if you aren't bringing those machines to the West). Get your arcade releases in the West more, collaborate w/ eatery chains like Dave n' Busters and Round1 like Raw Thrills does. Do smart work on licensing certain properties for arcade distribution. Revive some of your older IP like Virtua Fighter, Panzer Dragoon, Ristar, etc. and coordinate them to the demographics and markets that make the most sense. Do more retro compilation ports w/ M2 to Switch, PS4, and PC.
If they did those things, they'd be in a much better situation overall.
The thing about this is, Nintendo wouldn't know what to do with a lot of those IP themselves. They're a great developer, but they have a somewhat different design ideology and history compared to Sega. Two halves of the same coin, but still two different halves.
Yeah Nintendo has Mario Kart and F-Zero, but the best F-Zero was made in collaboration w/ Amusement Vision and Nintendo themselves have never made racing games like Sega Rally, Daytona, Scud Race or Ferrari F355, or Outrun for that matter. Those games have a much different vibe to something like a Mario Kart and are every bit as enjoyable. Arguably, Nintendo wouldn't need to put any of their teams on that type of game tho b/c Sega still has AM3 for that fare, but I could see them having the Mario Kart team on a Mario/Sonic Kart kind of game which would make a lot of sense.
Other stuff like Virtua Fighter....sorry but I don't think Nintendo's development studios have the mentality to produce a game of that ilk. Smash is a completely different type of fighter, same w/ ARMS. The people who made VF5 (to my knowledge) are still at AM2, so marrying their know-how with Nintendo's tech and the character designers of the ARMS team could lead to some magic, and give Nintendo a stronger leg and more respect with FGC eSports as a whole. But it simply wouldn't work if they only bought the IP rights and did zero consultation or work w/ the VF5 members still around.
Sonic is another beast altogether; I think letting EAD take a crack at it would work very well. Personally speaking I feel visually at least, Forces is a better looking game than Odyssey on purely technical level, and the artstyle in those games realize the technical aspects well. OTOH EAD has some fantastic visual artists of their own. A style merging the best of both would be ideal, but let EAD and the head designers of Generations work together on the game mechanics and level design. Meanwhile get Sonic Team on either a new IP or revisiting an older IP of theirs like Burning Rangers.
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Not only that, but the Xbox Game Pass would be the perfect way these games could release. Their success would be measured on things like how many subscribers they pull in and how often they are downloaded. A partnership with MS on this would do wonders for both MS and SEGA
Nintendo has their hands full with their own IPs and is doing great with them. They would not benefit at all from acquiring SEGA
I disagree with you on the Sonic team part. I think Sonic team is at creative burn out.
Sonic team should be reorganized with fresh talent and Ideas. There is no excuse for Sonics fall.
I'd be rather surprised to see an American company (MS) buy out a Japanese company (Sega) due to all the regulations about foreign corporations buying domestic corporations.
You'd have a better chance with Nintendo or Sony buying them.
You'd have a better chance with Nintendo or Sony buying them.
Did people read the OP?
As far as the report says the game division of Sega Sammy which is Sega Games Cop. had growing income.
Also, Sega Sammy worths billions.Companys like valve can't afford to buy Sega.
Edit: I don't know where these buyout discussions come from each time in Sega Sammy annual reports.
As far as the report says the game division of Sega Sammy which is Sega Games Cop. had growing income.
Also, Sega Sammy worths billions.Companys like valve can't afford to buy Sega.
Edit: I don't know where these buyout discussions come from each time in Sega Sammy annual reports.
AM2 did do the 3DS Mirai games so them doing something on Switch wouldn't be that unexpected.
I wonder where SEGA's future as a game developer and publisher lies. Focusing more on nurturing their PC market share, maybe even acquiring folks like Paradox? Or rather try to reform the lackluster Japanese output? I just hope they can stay independent as long as possible before Tencent and co. decide to buy them, or at most merge with a fellow mid-size publisher like Capcom.
MS buying Sega is one of the worst things that can happen to PC Gaming. I really really don't want this to happen.
Sony and Nintendo? It won't happen because they have no use for western studious.
Sony and Nintendo? It won't happen because they have no use for western studious.
While a Crusader Kings X Total War game is my wet dream, No. I'd rather Paradox stay independent. And I don't think Paradox wants to get bought. They're doing better than ever.
And I don't want Denuvo on Paradox games.
I think they would rather buy out smaller developers they have partnerships with (like Two Point) than just go and buy out a big name like Paradox.
They are continuing their Searchlight program as far as I know, so they'll probably make new partnerships in future for other PC games and maybe in different genres.
And for the final point - all this buyout talk is fanboy drivel with no basis in reality. Sega aren't getting bought out why time soon.
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The fresh talent is already there, but it's obvious that they are putting people in positions they don't deserve. The guy in charge of Forces was also a head lead on Sonic Boom, meanwhile a lot of the big players in Generations being good were put on the backburner for Forces. Just let that sink in for a minute.
They could use more scenario designers and level designers, for sure, but they have the artists there already. Same w/ 3D modelers, animators, musicians etc. It's the combination of bad organization, burnout on constant Sonic, and unrealistic holiday deadlines that's affecting them.
Their next four upcoming games mentioned in the report are looking pretty nice (all have blue skies)
Good Lord, SWDC (third one) is looking soooooo good right now. Has been from the reveal. Really hope it gets at least a PC port (official one, not some Daytona leak b/c they post the arcade update publicly xD)
Don't you know reading comprehension is a rare skill to possess these days? ;)
A lot of this slump (which doesn't sound severe) seems to be on Sammy's end, which could be for any number of reasons. I don't know all of the markets they operate their stuff in but I'm going to assume it's in lots of parts of Asia, particularly Japan. Don't know if Japan is going through a recession atm b/c that sort of stuff can tend to affect stuff like gambling markets.
All that said, I think it's fair to say however good Sega is doing atm they could be doing even better with further tightening the ship.
The theory that the smartphone games market will end up being a bubble containing only a few companies seems to grow ever more true. SEGA's the most pertinent here, it honestly feels like so many of their games would've been creative full fledged projects, but instead are slammed onto mobile platforms and in turn don't appeal to anyone really.
Glad this generation of consoles they've come back with a lot of hit titles, and the ATLUS buyout seems to have helped them out a lot as well. It seems like they're coming to understand that they have a market with console gamers as that's a place that reaches out to a wider audience, heck, I still can't believe we're finally getting Border Break on console almost 10 YEARS later. That plus getting a 4th Valkyria Chronicles, Sonic Mania, a lot of new Yakuza games, what looks like to be a the first new Shining localization since two console generations ago, Puyo Puyo games, and ATLUS's offerings, they have the chance to make a pretty big comeback.
Glad this generation of consoles they've come back with a lot of hit titles, and the ATLUS buyout seems to have helped them out a lot as well. It seems like they're coming to understand that they have a market with console gamers as that's a place that reaches out to a wider audience, heck, I still can't believe we're finally getting Border Break on console almost 10 YEARS later. That plus getting a 4th Valkyria Chronicles, Sonic Mania, a lot of new Yakuza games, what looks like to be a the first new Shining localization since two console generations ago, Puyo Puyo games, and ATLUS's offerings, they have the chance to make a pretty big comeback.
People are delusional if they believe that Nintendo will stop producing games on same of their key franchises just tp make space to some forgotten sega IP. They will keep pouring Sonic, persona and yakuzas games while killing the PC centric IP.
No one on their right mind will want Nintendo to buy Sega, unless they still want to see Nintendo win even more a war that was finished 20 years ago
No one on their right mind will want Nintendo to buy Sega, unless they still want to see Nintendo win even more a war that was finished 20 years ago
They have done that already for Sonic Team quite a few times. The problem is that SEGA and Sonic Team can't figure out for the life of them what 3D Sonic game to make so they pump out jumbled messed like Sonic Forces that tries to have something (boost gameplay, Classic Sonic, Create-a-Character) that appeals to every one.
If Tails and Knuckles were made playable in place of Classic Sonic and the avatar, Sonic Forces would have been a much more competent game. Yet they can't see how gamers would love a 3D Sonic game that focused on Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow being playable with a decent story.
That one.
You will be impressed by how many people still live in that era