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Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939

It's been a rough year for indies on Steam.

To be fair, many of the 12 indie developers I've spoken to over the last six months might gently rap on my window and inform me that, no, it's been a rough several years for indies on Steam. But the last year has been especially rocky thanks to a series of discoverability and communication missteps that have left many independent developers feeling ignored at best or deliberately hamstrung at worst.

For example, a sudden, unexplained change in Steam's algorithm in October caused sharp traffic drops for many. And just a few weeks ago, confusion about the Steam Summer Sale resulted in indie games being removed en masse from users' wishlists -- a critical feature for indies.

It's easy to see how all of this in the scope of a year could be disheartening for a small developer, especially one struggling to get noticed on gaming's largest PC storefront. And most of the developers I spoke with acknowledged that the basic challenge of discoverability when there are just too many video games isn't Valve's fault. Valve has the unenviable problem of figuring out how to categorize tens of thousands of games so users can find and buy what they wanted while still giving deserving games necessary visibility.

However, many of those same developers also expressed frustration that, while in the early days of Steam Greenlight there were numerous benefits to having a game appear on the platform, those benefits have largely dissolved as the library of games has exploded. They say Steam's decision to rely on a changing algorithm rather than curation has hindered rather than helped their games, resulting in steep drops in traffic, unpredictable game sales, and an increase in the amount of time and expense needed for marketing that had not been as critical when Steam was a smaller, more curated platform.

"Steam gives you a bare minimum package now," said Tom-Ivar Arntzen of Tinimations, developer of Klang. "It's not anything at all. When the indie movement started out, that wasn't the case. If you actually made it to Steam, you got some exposure for that. Being on Steam gave you bragging rights."

Some developers are lucky enough to have a Valve representative they can speak to directly, who might be able to provide some of the answers Hanna mentions. But how specifically one gets one of those seems to be a matter of confusion among many I spoke to, and some have never spoken to anyone from the company directly at all. A few developers told me that their posts with concerns on the Steam developer boards are often ignored entirely, and there's no clear avenue to go down if you need assistance.

"We have had no help, no guidance, love or support," said MidBoss CEO Cade Peterson. "It's a black box they operate in, and I get that at such a size they are now it's probably impossible to do more, but every major change they've made in the past four to five years has been at the cost of helping developers and pretty much every new change has hurt them."

The picture doesn't seem optimistic, but there is evidence things may be improving slightly. Some developers saw their traffic return to normal after Valve responded to the issues with the algorithm. Some reported surprise successes during the Steam Summer Sale despite wishlist frustrations. The Epic Games store, though still closed off to most developers, appears to have challenged Steam sufficiently that Valve is re-examining things like revenue share and recommendation. And everyone I talked to was at least cautiously optimistic about a brand new feature announced last week, Steam Labs.

Steam Labs is an experimental area on the storefront where Valve is currently testing new discoverability features. There are currently three available to play with, two that involve short trailers and the most interesting of which is a new take on game recommendation that uses machine learning to suggest titles based on what the user has played in the past.

Can't quote the whole thing but I'd definitely recommend reading the full article, as it delves into the issues Valve ran into last year, and how Steam Labs is their inroads to correcting the discoverability issue they're running into for devs.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,859
Steam gives you a bare minimum package now," said Tom-Ivar Arntzen of Tinimations, developer of Klang. "It's not anything at all. When the indie movement started out, that wasn't the case. If you actually made it to Steam, you got some exposure for that. Being on Steam gave you bragging rights."

What do you want? Steam can't give a good package to every developer storming the store, it's unresonable lol

They say Steam's decision to rely on a changing algorithm rather than curation has hindered rather than helped their games, resulting in steep drops in traffic, unpredictable game sales, and an increase in the amount of time and expense needed for marketing that had not been as critical when Steam was a smaller, more curated platform.

Some devs should learn how to market their own games, instead of expecting Steam to advertise their games for them lol
If you are not happy about Steam you can leave and knock at Tim's door.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
If you are not happy about Steam you can leave and knock at Tim's door.

Let ME on steam, just not everyone else.
-Indie dev

The issues are enough that Valve is taking corrective action with stuff like Steam Labs, so they definitely see the benefit to keeping Indies hittin' hard on Steam

Indies make money, Valve makes money, I lose all my money buying games, it's all peachy except for me :p
 

Sabretooth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,067
India
I feel like there's a pretty big disconnect between how indies view things and how Valve views things.

The impression I always got from Valve's comments was that they intend to be the Amazon of digitally distributed games, i.e. Steam will always be a plain, bare minimum storefront while the developer is responsible for everything else like discoverability and marketing. I'm not super familiar with the publishing world yet, but I don't think authors consider themselves dependent on Amazon's algorithms for discoverability.

What indies see things as is still more along the lines of the old, curated Steam, which Valve clearly has no intention of returning to on a philosophical level.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
What do you want? Steam can't give a good package to every developer storming the store, it's unresonable lol



Some devs should learn how to market their own games, instead of expecting Steam to advertise their games for them lol
If you are not happy about Steam you can leave and knock at Tim's door.

Let ME on steam, just not everyone else.
-Indie dev

Always strikes me how there's so little empathy for the struggles of small devs on Steam, and how this quickly turns to intense ire when they dare strike deals with the likes of Epic.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,859
Always strikes me how there's so little empathy for the struggles of small devs on Steam, and how this quickly turns to intense ire when they dare strike deals with the likes of Epic.

Why should i show empathy? If they can't sell their games it's their own problem, they can strike any deals they want and tbh i have yet to see one of these "struggling small devs" on EGS, only the big ones are there for obvious reasons.
 

THRILLHO

Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,090
Always strikes me how there's so little empathy for the struggles of small devs on Steam, and how this quickly turns to intense ire when they dare strike deals with the likes of Epic.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I personally don't have a problem with devs taking an EGS deal, even though I choose not to shop there. Everyone has to look out for themselves and the EGS deal seems solid, though to be fair, Epic is only going after "established" indies and proven-popular titles to this point, they have yet to shine a light on something that didn't already have buzz and community support.

Steam was curated until indies got upset, so Valve opened it up. Then indies got upset because it wasn't curated. You can't kick the ladder down once you've gotten yours. That's silly.
 
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Knurek

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,335
Always strikes me how there's so little empathy for the struggles of small devs on Steam, and how this quickly turns to intense ire when they dare strike deals with the likes of Epic.
Yes, small devs like Obsidian, Ubisoft, 4A, Yu Suzuki and Quantic Dreams.
I'm sure they wouldn't find success on Steam.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
I feel like there's a pretty big disconnect between how indies view things and how Valve views things.

The impression I always got from Valve's comments was that they intend to be the Amazon of digitally distributed games, i.e. Steam will always be a plain, bare minimum storefront while the developer is responsible for everything else like discoverability and marketing. I'm not super familiar with the publishing world yet, but I don't think authors consider themselves dependent on Amazon's algorithms for discoverability.

What indies see things as is still more along the lines of the old, curated Steam, which Valve clearly has no intention of returning to on a philosophical level.

Well yeah. Hence the reason why more indies are questioning the 30% cut Valve takes if they're going to go the Amazon approach.

Yes, small devs like Obsidian, Ubisoft, 4A, Yu Suzuki and Quantic Dreams.
I'm sure they wouldn't find success on Steam.

Yes, those are the only ones on the EGS.

Ironically, those established publishers are the ones most likely to benefit from Valve's revenue based cut reduction, leaving out the smaller indies that y'all swear are the lifeblood of PC gaming.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,308
I dont really think discoverability is something that can be fixed.

Basically, when some indies claims they want Valve to do something about discoverability, they mean "please, feature me on the front page. Please market me".

I often see some indies claiming "a few years ago, being on Steam meant something". I'll go as far as saying "a few years ago, making a game meant something". Nowadays, and that's something a lot of indies refuse to see, a far lot more people are making games.

Tools are easier and more powerful than ever. Cheaper than ever. And cover a huge range of platform.

If you were to market every legit indie titles releasing each week, you'd still run into visibility issues.

And when indies asks for curation or marketing, they basically mean "please, choose me". Because it's what it's all about. Picking the winners. And you can bet the very first one today complaining about visibility will be the very first ones to complain that they haven't been picked.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,308
Well yeah. Hence the reason why more indies are questioning the 30% cut Valve takes if they're going to go the Amazon approach.



Because that 30% pays for a suite of tools and service. Not for a marketing. If everyone paying 30% were owed marketing, then no one would benefit from it. I often read "on consoles, 1st parties like Sony and Nintendo market indies". It's true. They pick the winners. They decide who's going to sell and who's not going to. That's amazing for the winners.
 

Gelf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,305
Something I've never seen an answer to is when Steam changes the algorithm who is benefiting because we only ever hear about those that got hit. If an algorithm change hit sales across the board then that would hit valve profits as well and then surely they would revert the change quickly. The fact they didn't surely suggests that either other games must have seen an increase or peoples spending was spread out more on a wider range of games rather than a select lucky few favoured by the old algorithm.
 

Wumbo64

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
327
Because that 30% pays for a suite of tools and service. Not for a marketing. If everyone paying 30% were owed marketing, then no one would benefit from it. I often read "on consoles, 1st parties like Sony and Nintendo market indies". It's true. They pick the winners. They decide who's going to sell and who's not going to. That's amazing for the winners.

You're putting the cart before the horse then, making the line of questioning still valid.

If I let you sell my product on your store shelf and you are charging me 30% for the privilege, but you put it on the bottom shelf and gather dust, no amount of services you offer matter.
 

Spaltazar

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,105
you better believe the devs that complain about visibility would be the same devs that would complain if any of their games got denied access to steam because of a curation process
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,800
Brazil
Indies having "rough years" on Steam implies they are better in the other stores, which is silly. Indies are having rough years everywhere on PC, while getting better on platforms like Switch if they're big enough to get on them.

That said, Steam labs are a good pointing towards something better but there's a lot more to do. It will help but the "problem" of having too many games available will not disappear no matter how much effort a store can make.

Always strikes me how there's so little empathy for the struggles of small devs on Steam, and how this quickly turns to intense ire when they dare strike deals with the likes of Epic.

Small devs on Steam doesn't strike deals with Epic. Any indie dev big enough to be noticed by Epic already sold big numbers on Steam with previous games.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,308
You're putting the cart before the horse then, making the line of questioning still valid.

If I let you sell my product on your store shelf and you are charging me 30% for the privilege, but you put it on the bottom shelf and gather dust, no amount of services you offer matter.


Except I'm not putting it on the bottom of the shelves. I put it on the same shelves as everyone. I also provide extra services to make your product better. I offer it a better packaging, I offer the easiest way to deliver it to customers, I offer a shiton of tools for you to make the product and integrate features customers expect from your product.
 

ShiningBash

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,416
How did this turn into an Epic thread

It's an article about Steam Labs

Life is pain
1) ppl hate reading the articles
2) ppl hate any perceived criticism of things they love

Thanks for sharing this though, I'm curious to see how visibility issues continue to be tackled by storefronts. Everyone jokes about this, but there really are too many games.
 

Deleted member 43872

Account closed at user request
Banned
May 24, 2018
817
Something I've never seen an answer to is when Steam changes the algorithm who is benefiting because we only ever hear about those that got hit. If an algorithm change hit sales across the board then that would hit valve profits as well and then surely they would revert the change quickly. The fact they didn't surely suggests that either other games must have seen an increase or peoples spending was spread out more on a wider range of games rather than a select lucky few favoured by the old algorithm.
Perhaps you could start by reading the article about the algorithm change that was linked to in the OP?
Birkett says that in early October, some sort of bug in Steam's discovery algorithm kicked in, causing it to only recommend big name titles instead of relevant, smaller games. As a result, traffic to his games took a hit, and Birkett says the lower traffic has persisted since from sources such as "Other Product Pages" and "Home Page."

Then this evening, Valve published a blog post explaining what the issue was. Per the post, a change on October 5th intended to give sales and wishlist activity more weight when answering search queries had the unintended side effect of "de-boosting" games in the "More Like This" section of Steam. The algorithm would show games with only one tag in common rather than a large amount of tags, meaning the most popular games were always shown.
 

the_wart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,262
Always strikes me how there's so little empathy for the struggles of small devs on Steam, and how this quickly turns to intense ire when they dare strike deals with the likes of Epic.

The ire is overwhelmingly directed at Epic. And Epic isn't letting 99.9% of small developers on their storefront, so let's not pretend they're somehow helping out the little guy.

Valve surely does have genuine issues with transparency and communication. But a lot of what you see in these articles boils down to a plea to be privileged over every other small developer on steam, because of reasons. Any paen to the "good old days" is effectively asking for most of their competition to be removed from the store. Regarding discovery algorithms specifically, some number of devs reporting their traffic went down doesn't tell you much of anything, any change is likely to help some and hurt others, and I suspect the hurt are more likely to complain.
 

Deleted member 3294

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
1,973
Feels like a bunch of people here should probably read the article and maybe try to understand the problem indie devs have with Steam, rather than just coming into the thread instantly dismissing them and arguing against straw men.

Like folks here sure love to turn "obviously discoverability issues existing aren't Valve's fault when there are so many games but the adjustments they've been making to their algorithms lately have only made stuff worse for us" into "VALVE SHOULD ONLY ACCEPT ME AND MAKE THEIR ENTIRE STORE CURATED".
 

THRILLHO

Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,090
How did this turn into an Epic thread

It's an article about Steam Labs

Life is pain

I really like the new discoverability stuff in Labs. I discovered The Fall got a sequel! Who knew?!

e: with respect to the Wishlist issue from the summer sale, I know it used to be valuable but is it still? I had shit sitting on there for years that went unbought. I wasn't trying to game the summer sale and never participate in the metagame of steam sales, but it did get me to go through the ~200 titles on my wishlist and pare it down to the couple dozen things I legit will buy.

Valve certainly has it in them to have just blundered and that's the extent of it, but I have entertained the fantasy that they saw the current state of wishlist data as just a lot of noise (pretending everyone is like me and had a wishlist full of stuff they'd never actually buy) and found a way to force a wishlist reset.
 
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Wumbo64

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
327
Except I'm not putting it on the bottom of the shelves. I put it on the same shelves as everyone. I also provide extra services to make your product better. I offer it a better packaging, I offer the easiest way to deliver it to customers, I offer a shiton of tools for you to make the product and integrate features customers expect from your product.

If your game is excluded from Steam's front page algorithm or routinely appears pages back on search queries, then it is Steam's equivalent of a bottom shelf.

I stock shelves and pedal products based on vendor schematics for a living. Steam's discoverability is like the problem I see everyday of folks only looking at eye level for goods, unless they already know precisely what they are looking for. That convenience and obvious display is critical to driving profits for luxury goods in particular.
 

duckvalentine

Reporter at IGN
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Oct 25, 2017
71
To the folks suggesting indies just go to EGS if they're so upset, at the moment, that's not an option. EGS is super heavily curated right now and it's really hard to get on, which the indies I spoke to for this piece understood. There seemed to be a general belief though that Epic would open its doors much wider sometime by the end of the year, though what that will ultimately look like isn't 100% clear, so it's hard to float it as a viable alternative.

The two biggest storefronts right now are either heavily curated, or not curated at all. The folks in this piece broadly were hoping for either some kind of middle ground of light curation, or essentially what Steam is now as an open storefront but with a bit more transparency as to how games get noticed. They aren't asking for Steam to hand it all to them, just to be given enough information to make some long-term marketing plans that aren't going to be upended by an invisible change to a discovery queue six months after launch.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,308
If your game is excluded from Steam's front page algorithm or routinely appears pages back on search queries, then it is Steam's equivalent of a bottom shelf.

I stock shelves and pedal products based on vendor schematics for a living. Steam's discoverability is like the problem I see everyday of folks only looking at eye level for goods, unless they already know precisely what they are looking for. That convenience and obvious display is critical to driving profits for luxury goods in particular.



You're aware that not every game can be on the front page ? The sheer number prevents that.

It's like hoping every product sold in Wallmart is being sold at the entry of the store. It's not happening.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
Thread is full of strawmans when devs are simply asking for Steam to give clear communication, or even communication at all since Steam is often way too silent.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,308
To the folks suggesting indies just go to EGS if they're so upset, at the moment, that's not an option. EGS is super heavily curated right now and it's really hard to get on, which the indies I spoke to for this piece understood. There seemed to be a general belief though that Epic would open its doors much wider sometime by the end of the year, though what that will ultimately look like isn't 100% clear, so it's hard to float it as a viable alternative.

The two biggest storefronts right now are either heavily curated, or not curated at all. The folks in this piece broadly were hoping for either some kind of middle ground of light curation, or essentially what Steam is now as an open storefront but with a bit more transparency as to how games get noticed. They aren't asking for Steam to hand it all to them, just to be given enough information to make some long-term marketing plans that aren't going to be upended by an invisible change to a discovery queue six months after launch.



To add on that, Epic doesn't plan on discoverability. According to Sergey Galyonkin, they expect customers to know what they're looking for, like in a library.
 

SaberVS7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,252
How did this turn into an Epic thread

It's an article about Steam Labs

Life is pain

Epic turned it into an Epic Thread - By actively moving to shit on Steam Labs with immature snide comments the moment it opened.



When Epic and its employees are actively Culture Warring everything Valve does, can you be surprised?
 

City 17

Member
Oct 25, 2017
913
The issues are enough that Valve is taking corrective action with stuff like Steam Labs, so they definitely see the benefit to keeping Indies hittin' hard on Steam

Indies make money, Valve makes money, I lose all my money buying games, it's all peachy except for me :p
That's a hollow claim though, can you provide us the numbers on total amount spent by all steam users on Indies over the years? I see no reason to believe it hasn't increased.

You always try to paint a very different picture, not only that, you champion Epic who are the last caring entity towards these struggling indies. They side with the big proven guys and simply don't even let such indies in the store.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
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Oct 24, 2017
16,939
That's a hollow claim though, can you provide us the numbers on total amount spent by all steam users on Indies over the years? I see no reason to believe it hasn't increased.

You always try to paint a very different picture, not only that, you champion Epic who are the last caring entity towards these struggling indies. They side with the big proven guys and simply don't even let such indies in the store.

I'm the OP of this thread that talks about how Steam Labs is good and had nothing to do with Epic whatsoever

I'm not sure what you're talking about
 

Deleted member 43872

Account closed at user request
Banned
May 24, 2018
817
You're aware that not every game can be on the front page ? The sheer number prevents that.

It's like hoping every product sold in Wallmart is being sold at the entry of the store. It's not happening.
One really nice thing about websites is that there doesn't need to be a single front page for everyone. Valve actually has work constantly ongoing to show each user a front page and other integrated suggestion features that display games aligned with that specific user's tastes. (In my opinion it usually works quite well, once I followed some good curators and ignored the most popular games I have no interest in, but of course there's always room for improvement.) When Valve screws up that work, as with the October algorithm change or the sale wishlist fiasco, developers aren't entitled infants for asking their business partner to stop screwing up.
 

Resiverence

Member
Jan 30, 2019
517
Steam labs is really interesting to me, just wish you could cut out stuff you already have on your wishlist for recommens since the recommends are so limited anyway when it comes to it.
 

City 17

Member
Oct 25, 2017
913
User Warned: Antagonising other users, off-topic derailment.
I'm the OP of this thread that talks about how Steam Labs is good and had nothing to do with Epic whatsoever

I'm not sure what you're talking about
You can't separate these two related discussion though, especially not when you've got a history of championing Epic and shitting on Steam.

And yes you know fully well what I'm talking about.
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,237
Always strikes me how there's so little empathy for the struggles of small devs on Steam, and how this quickly turns to intense ire when they dare strike deals with the likes of Epic.
I think it's because it's a mixture of years of good publicity and fan worship Steam and Valve have gotten over the years, many not realizing how small many indie devs are or failing to the issues those devs are are having.

How did this turn into an Epic thread
Maybe contact the moderators if it gets worse, don't want the thread to get derailed bably because the article is an interesting read.
To the folks suggesting indies just go to EGS if they're so upset, at the moment, that's not an option. EGS is super heavily curated right now and it's really hard to get on, which the indies I spoke to for this piece understood.
I recall before EGS back in 2017, some indie studios were trying their luck on the Nintendo Switch and seeing what Xbox were doing, how successful were they then and now that Switch has had time to settle?
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,800
Brazil
I really like the new discoverability stuff in Labs. I discovered The Fall got a sequel! Who knew?!

e: with respect to the Wishlist issue from the summer sale, I know it used to be valuable but is it still? I had shit sitting on there for years that went unbought. I wasn't trying to game the summer sale are never participate in the metagame of steam sales, but it did get me to go through the ~200 titles on my wishlist and pare it down to the couple dozen things I legit will buy.

Valve certainly has it in them to have just blundered and that's the extent of it, but I have entertained the fantasy that they saw the current state of wishlist data as just a lot of noise (pretending everyone is like me and had a wishlist full of stuff they'd never actually buy) and found a way to force a wishlist reset.

I guess the problem is that wishlists are used in the algorithms to decide the games that appears on the store front. Imo the solution would be simply not using wishlists to decide that haha

I dont really think discoverability is something that can be fixed.

Basically, when some indies claims they want Valve to do something about discoverability, they mean "please, feature me on the front page. Please market me".

I often see some indies claiming "a few years ago, being on Steam meant something". I'll go as far as saying "a few years ago, making a game meant something". Nowadays, and that's something a lot of indies refuse to see, a far lot more people are making games.

Tools are easier and more powerful than ever. Cheaper than ever. And cover a huge range of platform.

If you were to market every legit indie titles releasing each week, you'd still run into visibility issues.

And when indies asks for curation or marketing, they basically mean "please, choose me". Because it's what it's all about. Picking the winners. And you can bet the very first one today complaining about visibility will be the very first ones to complain that they haven't been picked.

This is pretty sad but completely true.

Still think that better discoverability could still improve the situation somewhat. But yeah, it's kinda like trying to kill the meat industry by being vegan, the impact is minimal.
 

Wumbo64

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
327
You're aware that not every game can be on the front page ? The sheer number prevents that.

It's like hoping every product sold in Wallmart is being sold at the entry of the store. It's not happening.

You are generally correct.

Although I am still convinced Valve's engineers and UI people could do more to get these games in peoples faces more often. Customers don't have to expect that because their access to the client is free, but developers (particularly independent ones) do because they are the ones losing money over it.
 

Deleted member 1055

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
770
Epic turned it into an Epic Thread - By actively moving to shit on Steam Labs with immature snide comments the moment it opened.



When Epic and its employees are actively Culture Warring everything Valve does, can you be surprised?


You are blinded by your dislike for Epic if you think that's a snide comment.

He is saying that the algorithm works and showing the evidence:
The Recommender obviously doesn't know that he had already purchased these games elsewhere, but it correctly identified them as games that he would be (or rather, was) interested in buying. It's a positive result.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,308
One really nice thing about websites is that there doesn't need to be a single front page for everyone. Valve actually has work constantly ongoing to show each user a front page and other integrated suggestion features that display games aligned with that specific user's tastes. (In my opinion it usually works quite well, once I followed some good curators and ignored the most popular games I have no interest in, but of course there's always room for improvement.) When Valve screws up that work, as with the October algorithm change or the sale wishlist fiasco, developers aren't entitled infants for asking their business partner to stop screwing up.


Except that it seems like according to some devs that the October change was fixed in December of the same year.
As for the "wishlist fiasco" sorry but if people wants to remove games from their wishlist, it's their right. No matter the reason, poor explanation, people not being able to read properly, if someone removed your game from their wishlist, that means they didn't care enough about it to keep it. A lot of people kept games in their wishlist but lost interest over time.
 

Chairmanchuck (另一个我)

Teyvat Traveler
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Oct 25, 2017
9,087
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You are generally correct.

Although I am still convinced Valve's engineers and UI people could do more to get these games in peoples faces more often. Customers don't have to expect that because their access to the client is free, but developers (particularly independent ones) do because they are the ones losing money over it.

But how to show them every little game.

Some of the devs, who complain on Twitter.... maybe their games just arent good.
When the visual novel that looks like someone just started drawing art isnt featured, those devs get mad.

Not every game is a Supraland or Bright Memory. Some games are just the Mighty No. 9 of games and even though the devs might think their game is the next Hollow Knight, maybe it isnt or maybe the market of such games is already far too populated.

You could just compare Kitsune Games new Metroidvania game and just compare screenshots to other Metroidvanias:

ss_84bc199d5b1803bc0d7abf9a4b6465c6f3496fe8.600x338.jpg


vs.



Somehow the devs always expect maybe their mediocre games or maybe games that dont have a huge audience to be the next Indie Darling and be shown front page on every Steam page, but the reality is, some of those games just arent.... good and can not stand out besides maybe the 40 other ones that at least have some interesting art style, were praised for its deep story or got popular by word of mouth.
 
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duckvalentine

Reporter at IGN
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
71
I recall before EGS back in 2017, some indie studios were trying their luck on the Nintendo Switch and seeing what Xbox were doing, how successful were they then and now that Switch has had time to settle?

General response seems to have been that the indies who were able to jump on Switch early did pretty well and overall it's a machine folks like to play indies on. However, the eshop has been criticized for being poorly curated in general, making it hard both for users to find games they want and for devs to get their games seen.

I've heard good things from indies who have partnered with Xbox since Microsoft has started to push ID@Xbox harder, and even more good things from those who can get on Game Pass.

The upside to both Switch and Xbox is that they, unlike Steam, generally seem to have either straightforward recommendation algorithms that indies can broadly understand and plan around, or (in the Switch's case) no real recommendation algorithm at all, which sucks but again, an indie can know that going in and anticipate it's not going to randomly change tomorrow and crash their traffic into the dirt (honestly at this point, any changes at all would probably count as improvements).

The downside is that to get on those platforms you have to first off actually develop for the platform, and second off get in with Nintendo or Xbox if you want your game to be promoted. However, my understanding is that there are clear processes for doing so. There's probably some process for getting into the Nindies showcase, and if you're in, you know you're going to get X amount of things done to promote your game. If you're not, then you're not.

All of this really just revolves around *knowing* what's happening and being able to plan for it, which is why Steam Labs (specifically the Interactive Recommender) seems to be an improvement. It's not 100% transparent, but there is a stronger idea of why a game is being recommended to a given person based on their previous playtimes and selection of niche/popular. It's a step in the right direction, esp if Valve decides to finalize it out of Steam Labs and make it a full-on Steam feature.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
It's worth pointing out that discoverability for something on this scale probably goes like

Amazon
Walmart
Rakuten
Steam

Like it's an insane problem and Steam is the only all digital one, if they wanted to just sit on their ass, they wouldn't have new mobile apps coming and Steam Labs stuff

It's an issue and they're clearly trying to tackle it
 

Rpgmonkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,348
This is a pretty interesting problem and I'm looking forward to what Valve is working on to at least relieve some of the pain points, and what the end result is. You see a lot of this with social media, search engines, music/video streaming, mobile app stores, and so on but I'm curious to see if there's any unique angles to a very video game-centered service/marketplace that has to deal with a similarly massive breadth of content/products.

Recommendations and discovery are far from a solved problem and it may be illogical to ever expect a perfect solution to exist as it's essentially "make everyone happy at the same time and at the right time", but I like seeing the tools and tricks these companies come up with.